Guild Wars 2

haviz.1340:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Your build in GW2 is defined by your gear. It is just so that everyone runs zerker gear, so you make up fine nuances to build an artificial build variety.

All are DDs in first place. Then they get some support to raise the DPS of the group. This has nothing to do with what the DEVs were talking about.

The system is broken, the encounters are all about burning down the boss, no other mechanic needed. No tanking – no tanking gear needed, no real healers – no healing gear needed, nothing else needed but DD.

This is why all group (zerg) content feels the same: Do as much damage as you can, dodge, damage.

If you say so, record a fractal 49 or 50 with just direct damage, nothing else. No support and no controls.

I can agree that open world zergfest is pretty much what you say but how would you design a content with tanks and healers in open world for 150 people?

150 people at the same location will be too laggy. This never should have been the type of gameplay that we should aim for.

Instead 10 smaller zergs of players of 15 men each, spread across the battlefield as required, is much better game play design.

Example:

digiowl.9620:

CHIPS.6018:

Getting hit is unexpected. So they will hurt a lot. The game is pretty much Devil May Cry in “Dante Must Die” mode.

Heh i recall seeing early video of a thief 1v1-ing a dungeon boss, and quipping how much it made me think GW2 was multiplayer Devil May Cry thanks to all the acrobatics and evades.

It made me think more of Monster Hunter, where evades/blocks at the proper times is important but so is standing ground and attacking when possible. Though Monster Hunter is kind of . . . well, all boss fights.

(And Plessy.)

haviz.1340:

CHIPS.6018:

Nearly everyone I know runs berserker for pve. We aren’t proud about it. You know why?

Because tbh running berserker isn’t that hard. Not hard at all.

Instead of saying "We are awesome! ", we are saying “The game does not punish berserker players enough.”

And btw, your gear is indeed part of what defines your build. Compare your stat naked with your stats will full gear on. That’s a huge difference in stats.

That’s not exactly a proper sample size. Nearly everyone I know in the game has 20+ years, does it mean there are no people younger than that?

This game doesn’t punish for a lot thing.

Your build is mostly defined by your role, tell me how does power define if you are support or control specced? Those are defined by your weapons, traits and utility skills. Gear (stats) defines your build but it’s not the only factor and not the biggest one.

If you try to heal others with berserker gear, you character will be a very bad healer. You yourself may be very skilled in healing. But your character is bad at healing.

If you are talking about role, then yeah your character’s role is still healer. But it is just a very bad healer.

Gear is important. That’s my point.

Any healer is a bad healer since there are no healing role in this game and the range of heal/blastfinishers/boons is quite limited so in a group that would actually require someone to babysit them it usually wouldn’t work because the type of player who needs babysitting will also not stand close in melee range but play headless chicken game. You can’t actually target a player for anything in this game. Heck even in tpvp the cleric gear is mostly used for yourself as the point bunker rather than with the idea of “healing” your team. You’re not a healer, you’re never a healer, and if you think this game allows you to actually play a healer you’re sadly mistaken. Healer doesn’t even mean anything without a tank it’s not like you can make a team with a healer and a full berserker player and expect the healer to protect and heal a bad berserker who doesn’t dodge. The berserker will still die if he doesn’t dodge. There is no amount of external healing that can prevent a berserker from being one/two shot from things. Ergo if you feel comfortable playing berserker you will not benefit from a supposed “healer” in the party. And if you’re not comfortable you will still die even with said healer in the group. Can the healer tank lupicus’s kick for me? apart from giving aegis but berserker guardian still gives aegis just fine.

Roles in this game are support (control, reflects, boons), offensive buffing and dps, none of which are defined by gear unless you include the mostly useless boon duration runes. The only thing gear does is change the slider of comfortability with the content you have, with the more comfortable you are, the glassier you’ll play.

Most action games are like this. Dark Souls feature tankier gear and stat selections, but you can finish the game at lvl 1 (zero levelling) with an upgraded club if you know what you’re doing. Ultimately points in vitality and endurance are only there to make the game easier for you. But people coming to gw2 act like they expected a game like WoW. This isn’t WoW, and if you want WoW you should know where to look at.

Most challenges in this game have become race against time. I think its unlikely to change as they seems to think its more fun for events to fail this way. So better get used to it.

I can agree that open world zergfest is pretty much what you say but how would you design a content with tanks and healers in open world for 150 people?

Easy. Take the current content, reduce the enemy HP by about 25%. Done.

Nikaido.3457:

Most action games are like this. Dark Souls feature tankier gear and stat selections, but you can finish the game at lvl 1 (zero levelling) with an upgraded club if you know what you’re doing. Ultimately points in vitality and endurance are only there to make the game easier for you. But people coming to gw2 act like they expected a game like WoW. This isn’t WoW, and if you want WoW you should know where to look at.

Sorry but there is indeed a role of healer in GW2. We see group healing in WvW every day. Water field + blast. Well of Blood. Warrior shout. Etc Etc.

There is no full time healer. This much is true. But there are plenty of part time healers in the game.

I said healer in my previous post. But by extension I meat buffs and supports too. We see Fire Field+Blast, Condition Removal from allies, Boon Removal from foes, adding conditions on foes, etc etc. Those are all valid roles in the game.

Once again, there is no such a role as full time buffers/support. But there are plenty of part time buffers/support

And in the roles above, gear is very important. Healing power increase healing directly. Boon duration/condition duration affects support directly. etc etc.

A direct response to three things you said:

1) "in a group that would actually require someone to babysit them it usually wouldn’t work because the type of player who needs babysitting will also not stand close in melee range but play headless chicken game. "

And that’s exactly why Berserker gear is not popular and hated in WvW. They cannot survive with the zerg, so they have to play that roaming/headless chicken game. Professional WvW guilds requires their members to stay with the commander 100% always.

The core reason: Human enemy zergs have NO PROBLEM killing a player with berserker gear. Like I said 90% of them will die in that very first engagement, nevermind the re-engagements.

So you are right in saying that healers/buffers/support cannot help a berserker player in that situation (WvW). He will die either way. But do not mistaken. Healers/buffers/support is very important for those players who can survive the first engagement. They will be buffed, healed and then engage again for the second, third and fourth time.

I said this many times but here it goes again. The mobs are very very bad in killing berserker players. That’s why WvW and PvE seems like two different dimensions in everything. I said the reason in previous posts so I won’t repeat myself here.

2) “berserker guardian still gives aegis just fine.”

By the same argument, berserker elementalists can give water/fire fields, berserker mesmer can give portals, etc etc. And you will be 100% correct, if you do not take into account of their survivability and availability.

In WvW, let’s say you count on a guardian go give the whole group aegis. After that first engagement, you find out that the guardian you counted on has died. A dead guardian cannot give your group aegis.

The same thing with the other professions. A dead elementalist cannot give your group water/field fields. A dead mesmer cannot give your group portals. etc etc.

In a WvW zerg fight, where it takes 3 or 4 engagements to win, it is very important for these support classes to survive though multiple engagements.

PvE is a different world. Because the mobs are very very bad at killing off berserker players. Your berserker guardian, berserker elementalist and berserker mesmer can do their job just fine.

3) You bring up the Dark Soul, Demon Soul example. This is a great point. Here is the problem with GW2:

In DS, the player must die multiple times to a boss/mob before the player get better. Why? Because the player must die a few times to slowly figure out the pattern of that boss/mob. After that the player will start winning.

In GW2, the berserker players rarely needs that. Even on the first day of those so-called hard contents (Teq, Knights, etc), berserker rarely dies.

You may say “WTH are you talking about I see berserkers die/down on the ground all the time!!!”

No they don’t. Because they never died fast enough to cause a player zerg wipe.

If the game is truly hard enough, then on the very first day of these new events the berserkers should die so often that the player zerg actually gets wiped. This is just like Dark Soul/Demom Soul. The players should die before they get better/improve enough that they start winning.

You may say next “WTH are you talking about those events fails all the time!!!”

Yeah sure. But they fail because of the timer. Not because the mob wipe out all the berserker players.

Hope this makes sense.

CHIPS.6018:

Sorry but there is indeed a role of healer in GW2. We see group healing in WvW every day. Water field + blast. Well of Blood. Warrior shout. Etc Etc.
…

Your point is perfectly clear but I’m not really sure if you’re aware that most of the people you’re discussing with completely dislike the WvW gameplay too and prefer, if anything, sPvP one and/or that headless chicken roamer gameplay you seem to not like at all.
You can’t convince anyone on how flawed you think the PvE is using as an example something they actually find flawed. You just have completely different tastes.

person brings up an issue thats been known and talked about for ages: DPS checks

someone else comes and says “play better”

argument is told about why it is just a DPS check, with examples why and explanations why

the same tired old “play better” is parroted over and over

This is why we cant have nice things

CHIPS.6018:

Sorry but there is indeed a role of healer in GW2. -snip-

Putting down water field once every 15 or 45 seconds doesn’t equal to have a role of a healer. As an ele, you have 20 skills for you disposition so it’s hard to have a role of a healer while using 2 or 3 skills that are healing. Futhermore, the one that heals is the one that blasts, not the one that puts down the water field.

In addition, healing power was designed that way that in improves mostly your personal heals because anet didn’t want reactive healing, they said they preferred active one.

1) "in a group that would actually require someone to babysit them it usually wouldn’t work because the type of player who needs babysitting will also not stand close in melee range but play headless chicken game. "

And that’s exactly why Berserker gear is not popular and hated in WvW. They cannot survive with the zerg, so they have to play that roaming/headless chicken game. Professional WvW guilds requires their members to stay with the commander 100% always.

The core reason: Human enemy zergs have NO PROBLEM killing a player with berserker gear. Like I said 90% of them will die in that very first engagement, nevermind the re-engagements.

So you are right in saying that healers/buffers/support cannot help a berserker player in that situation (WvW). He will die either way. But do not mistaken. Healers/buffers/support is very important for those players who can survive the first engagement. They will be buffed, healed and then engage again for the second, third and fourth time.

I said this many times but here it goes again. The mobs are very very bad in killing berserker players. That’s why WvW and PvE seems like two different dimensions in everything. I said the reason in previous posts so I won’t repeat myself here.

I find it rather amusing you call roaming a headless chicken game while not zerging. Also, in pvp people are somehow running zerkers (hambows, thieves, mesmers, eles).

PvE is a different world. Because the mobs are very very bad at killing off berserker players. Your berserker guardian, berserker elementalist and berserker mesmer can do their job just fine.

In pvp those classes do their jobs fine. Could it be that wvw is somehow imbalanced where berserker’s is not viable? I think I heard anet saying that wvw would be imbalanced hybrid of pvp and pve. Do you fight against 50 people, all spamming aoes, in pvp or pve? Maybe that’s the reason why berserker’s is not viable in wvw zergs.

3) You bring up the Dark Soul, Demon Soul example. This is a great point. Here is the problem with GW2:

In DS, the player must die multiple times to a boss/mob before the player get better. Why? Because the player must die a few times to slowly figure out the pattern of that boss/mob. After that the player will start winning.

In GW2, the berserker players rarely needs that. Even on the first day of those so-called hard contents (Teq, Knights, etc), berserker rarely dies.

So hard content is now Tequatl and knights? You keep bringing up zergs which even anet is now trying to somehow fix. Game is balanced around 5 man parties (aoe cap and conditions cap) like pvp or instanced pve. Try going high scales fractals on your first time with berserker’s ele in melee range and tell us again how you didn’t die and how easy it was on your first try.

I also heard that berserker’s are dead weights for teq and they often go down very fast.

IDK…. I’ve never been big on getting big numbers on the screen until now. This event has brought out a different side in me. We’re actually having fun seeing whom can do the most damage. It’s not even that bad now that the bugs are getting fixed. At least we got the achievement tonight.

Nikaido.3457:

Most action games are like this. Dark Souls feature tankier gear and stat selections, but you can finish the game at lvl 1 (zero levelling) with an upgraded club if you know what you’re doing. Ultimately points in vitality and endurance are only there to make the game easier for you. But people coming to gw2 act like they expected a game like WoW. This isn’t WoW, and if you want WoW you should know where to look at.

In other words, GW2 is a action game in MMORPG drag. The interface is classic MMORPG with a few “tweaks” but the underlying mechanics are more in line with a third person shooter.

Seriously, just give me permanent mouse look and a proper crosshair already and stop trying to pretend that GW2 can straddle the gap by overloading the UI…

digiowl.9620:

Nikaido.3457:

Most action games are like this. Dark Souls feature tankier gear and stat selections, but you can finish the game at lvl 1 (zero levelling) with an upgraded club if you know what you’re doing. Ultimately points in vitality and endurance are only there to make the game easier for you. But people coming to gw2 act like they expected a game like WoW. This isn’t WoW, and if you want WoW you should know where to look at.

In other words, GW2 is a action game in MMORPG drag. The interface is classic MMORPG with a few “tweaks” but the underlying mechanics are more in line with a third person shooter.

Still want to call it as more Monster Hunter than third person shooter. Especially with the dodge mechanic being part of it.

I still don’t get where this fight is a DPS Test. 150 condition builds could do it with nothing but AA spam from a power-weapon they swapped to and some changed utility-skills.

How can that be a DPS “test”? Don’t need gear, don’t need build, just need to change one weapon and you’re good to go.

Honestly I think it only seems that way because too many people seem to not realize you have to dodge the Knight’s pulls and slams (way too many people down because of that).

Additionally I think the whole “no more than 50 can get the buff at a time” is a trick given how we can’t have 150 people in LA at a time.

MadDemon.7548:

Additionally I think the whole “no more than 50 can get the buff at a time” is a trick given how we can’t have 150 people in LA at a time.

Not sure. I thought LA hardcaps at 150 players?

CHIPS.6018:

NoTrigger.8396:

do you have any proof or statistics for that? because my pug runs say otherwise. i rarely meet berserker players (and even more rarely good berserker players) and most of the time i end up soloing encounters for them. even when they are using the most extreme tanky gear in the game.
berserker is a minority in this game and as long as the active combat system exists good players will always use berserker.
and tbh with you its the only reason why i am even playing this game. because if i do a mistake i will be punished for it. challenge = fun.
if i wanted to be brainafk all day and press 1111111 i would be playing a different game.

you can finish all of the pve content in this game without armor. if they destroy my berserker gear i will run around naked and still be faster than most people.

Nearly everyone I know runs berserker for pve. We aren’t proud about it. You know why?

Because tbh running berserker isn’t that hard. Not hard at all.

Instead of saying "We are awesome! ", we are saying “The game does not punish berserker players enough.”

And btw, your gear is indeed part of what defines your build. Compare your stat naked with your stats will full gear on. That’s a huge difference in stats.

ok if its not hard at all can you post a video of your party running arah full melee and full berserker and with only 1 warrior in the party?

if anything the game doesnt punish tanky players enough who have so much room for error and leech 24/7 in events and dungeons.

and your argument “in other games you have to die to get better and learn mechanics” is flawed. do you know how many times i died in gw2 until i was able to melee lupi and even solo lupi? you dont.

Carighan.6758:

I still don’t get where this fight is a DPS Test. 150 condition builds could do it with nothing but AA spam from a power-weapon they swapped to and some changed utility-skills.

How can that be a DPS “test”? Don’t need gear, don’t need build, just need to change one weapon and you’re good to go.

its a dps test because bad players are looking for excuses as always to reflect their own mistakes and failure on something else.

CHIPS.6018:

So I just tried that “Kill 3 Legendary Clockworks” quest. It is nothing but a DPS test. Can we please stop having quests like these?

These quests are saying:
If you are not using berserker gear, go home.

I completly agree with the OP.

These massive events need to be more about players “skill” and Team Effort and less about " OH, We don’t have enough dps nvm".

We need more bosses with phases, that get harder progressivly, and imo we need less,way less events with Time Counters.

Time Counter+ Boss = Dps zerg fest
Time Counter + Boss + ^the same amount of people used in the above but with non-zerker build = fail

Not a so old example, Marionette, they could do more bosses like her, it was challenging, fun and not a Dps zerg fest, it was the fight i have enjoyed the most in my GW2 Adventure

To be fair Frozencore, there are currently only two mechanics in play with the Knights that require any form of Player Skill and the majority of players so far have been unable to handle them despite receiving specific, friendly instructions from myself and others:

1. What the big orange circle means and When to Dodge it.
2. When to use conditions and when to not use conditions.

The only upside of DPS tests is that they tend to be “dummy proof” (assuming they are balanced for mid-range DPS).

mtpelion.4562:

To be fair Frozencore, there are currently only two mechanics in play with the Knights that require any form of Player Skill and the majority of players so far have been unable to handle them despite receiving specific, friendly instructions from myself and others:

1. What the big orange circle means and When to Dodge it.
2. When to use conditions and when to not use conditions.

The only upside of DPS tests is that they tend to be “dummy proof” (assuming they are balanced for mid-range DPS).

This is true. And with the Marionette … well, some people never quite grasped the idea, and I say that leaving all leeway open for new players or people experiencing the event for the first time. We got an interesting fight, different mechanics, different stages and bosses that required different skills/abilities/tactics to kill. And people didn’t like it because they couldn’t do it.

Though, even there, DPS was an issue. I was on the 5th Warden with a party. We all knew exactly what to do, but we didn’t have enough DPS, so we wiped anyway, and even if we hadn’t, we were about to miss the timer. Meh.

Vargamonth.2047:

CHIPS.6018:

Sorry but there is indeed a role of healer in GW2. We see group healing in WvW every day. Water field + blast. Well of Blood. Warrior shout. Etc Etc.
…

Your point is perfectly clear but I’m not really sure if you’re aware that most of the people you’re discussing with completely dislike the WvW gameplay too and prefer, if anything, sPvP one and/or that headless chicken roamer gameplay you seem to not like at all.
You can’t convince anyone on how flawed you think the PvE is using as an example something they actually find flawed. You just have completely different tastes.

You are right. Roaming/headless chicken/react to animation and stacking on your commander/healing/buffing/support is 2 very different style of game play. My point is to have variety in the PvE gameplay.

-Roaming/headless chicken/react to animation – It is best to have this in dungeons and sPvP.

-Stacking on your commander/healing/buffing/support – It is best to have this in Living Story instanced events and WvW.

The size of these fights are different. It makes perfect since for the gameplay and requirements to be different.

haviz.1340:

Putting down water field once every 15 or 45 seconds doesn’t equal to have a role of a healer. As an ele, you have 20 skills for you disposition so it’s hard to have a role of a healer while using 2 or 3 skills that are healing. Futhermore, the one that heals is the one that blasts, not the one that puts down the water field.

Water field, Well for Blood, Warrior Shout, etc etc. All of these are support healing. And they are all very important to the army in WvW. By definition, these players are support healers.

A berserker will obvious not care about these support healing or any buffs and supports. They will never be part of it. They are playing roaming/headless chicken style.

“I find it rather amusing you call roaming a headless chicken game while not zerging. Also, in pvp people are somehow running zerkers (hambows, thieves, mesmers, eles).”

Let’s be honest here. Roamers/headless chickens are not part of the army. Roamers do their own thing for the most part. They do not support each other. They are just there, with other roamers, to deal DPS fast enough in these DPS tests/check.

I am not saying this is the wrong way to play PvE. But it gets very boring when every single Living Story event is about roaming/headless chickens/DPS test. The PvE gameplay should be diverse enough that the army style have a role too.

As for PvP, of course people uses berserker there. In small scale fights berserker have no problem. It is in WvW where berserker dies too often to be popular, because the enemy human zergs have no problem killing berserker players.

“In pvp those classes do their jobs fine. Could it be that wvw is somehow imbalanced where berserker’s is not viable? I think I heard anet saying that wvw would be imbalanced hybrid of pvp and pve. Do you fight against 50 people, all spamming aoes, in pvp or pve? Maybe that’s the reason why berserker’s is not viable in wvw zergs.”

WvW style is the correct style for large scale fights. The more players are involved, the less roaming and more organized the army need to be to win.

And yes that’s exactly the reason why berserker is not viable in WvW zergs. They are designed to roam/headless chicken. Berserkers are never meant to fight within an organized army.

“So hard content is now Tequatl and knights? You keep bringing up zergs which even anet is now trying to somehow fix. Game is balanced around 5 man parties (aoe cap and conditions cap) like pvp or instanced pve. Try going high scales fractals on your first time with berserker’s ele in melee range and tell us again how you didn’t die and how easy it was on your first try.
I also heard that berserker’s are dead weights for teq and they often go down very fast.”

The game should have 3 balances for 3 different group sizes. One around 5 men. The other around 15 men. The last 50+ men.

5 men – dungeons
15 men – separated zerg
50+ men – united zerg

Fractal is a dungeon. Bring that up is pointless in a talk about Living Story Instanced Events. The group size is very different. So the gameplay style should be different.

Once again I am not against dungeons roamers/headless chicken/DPS test. But there is too much of that going on right now. The game needs variety. Anet should stop making these Living Story Instanced Events into a dungeon. Instead they should aim for the WvW organized army model.

As for Teq, it seems you totally missed my point:

Berserkers, or anyone, dying isn’t the cause of event failure.
The timer running out is the cause of event failure.

So I don’t know why you bring that up again (berserkers do die! I see them die!). Sure some players will die, but overall the players do not die enough. Why? Because the mobs are very very bad at killing the players in Living Story Instanced Events.

NoTrigger.8396:

CHIPS.6018:

NoTrigger.8396:

do you have any proof or statistics for that? because my pug runs say otherwise. i rarely meet berserker players (and even more rarely good berserker players) and most of the time i end up soloing encounters for them. even when they are using the most extreme tanky gear in the game.
berserker is a minority in this game and as long as the active combat system exists good players will always use berserker.
and tbh with you its the only reason why i am even playing this game. because if i do a mistake i will be punished for it. challenge = fun.
if i wanted to be brainafk all day and press 1111111 i would be playing a different game.

you can finish all of the pve content in this game without armor. if they destroy my berserker gear i will run around naked and still be faster than most people.

Nearly everyone I know runs berserker for pve. We aren’t proud about it. You know why?

Because tbh running berserker isn’t that hard. Not hard at all.

Instead of saying "We are awesome! ", we are saying “The game does not punish berserker players enough.”

And btw, your gear is indeed part of what defines your build. Compare your stat naked with your stats will full gear on. That’s a huge difference in stats.

ok if its not hard at all can you post a video of your party running arah full melee and full berserker and with only 1 warrior in the party?

if anything the game doesnt punish tanky players enough who have so much room for error and leech 24/7 in events and dungeons.

and your argument “in other games you have to die to get better and learn mechanics” is flawed. do you know how many times i died in gw2 until i was able to melee lupi and even solo lupi? you dont.

Carighan.6758:

I still don’t get where this fight is a DPS Test. 150 condition builds could do it with nothing but AA spam from a power-weapon they swapped to and some changed utility-skills.

How can that be a DPS “test”? Don’t need gear, don’t need build, just need to change one weapon and you’re good to go.

its a dps test because bad players are looking for excuses as always to reflect their own mistakes and failure on something else.

You missed my point.

Let’s remove the timer from Teq and the Knights for a second. So it is now a fair fight. it is the players vs Teq. It is now the players vs the Knights. There is no outside laws and rules to interfere with the fight.

What’s the chances of the players failing to kill the knights? Zero!

What is that? Because the mobs (Teq, Knights, etc) are very very bad at killing the players. They never kill the players fast enough to cause a zerg wipe.

Once again Arah/Fractual are dungeons designed for 5 men. This thread is about Living Story Instanced Events. The population size is different. So this cannot be compared.

I do have to say one thing about the dungeons: The bosses in Living Story Instanced Events are easier than the bosses in dungeons. So as the players group got bigger, the boss were designed to be easier. The only reason for this is:

The bigger the player zerg, the more disorganized they are.

In other words:

The mobs/bosses inside dungeons are designed to successfully kill the players to cause a wipe.
The mobs/bosses in Living Story Instanced Events are never designed to successfully kill the players to cause a wipe.

See the difference?

That shows how much faith the devs have on the players.

It is time to prove them wrong.

Im really sadden that with this new change of having 50 people per Knight. And now since they have changed it I have yet to be able to down this event at all. With this change now my server (BP) people are not even bothering with it at all leave LA with just a mere handful of players to try this. Now some will say “Just Guest to another server that’s getting it done.” Well though that is an option you cant not guarantee you will get in there main server flow in LA. Sometimes when you guest and it ask you that you can join main server it will take you to yet another overflow. Whats even more disappointing is how Anet says the Scarlet Fight will have all these nice loots that dropped previously from past Living Story’s can possible drop. But with this fight making it mostly impossible for majority servers, these people will be missing out on said chance at items. And now with only a week left and no word from Anet about this this will be a huge disappointment to those players. If they couold just get rid of the Reflect bubble mechanic and change it to something were EVERYONE can DPS then that should solve one of the major problem’s and may sway more people to try it again. I also agree that I too am fed up of these DPS races, and stacking (need said amout of people to down each knight) is ludicrous. But I am just going to chalk this up to yet another disappointing event that I will loose out on due to “Not enough players on map” event.

CHIPS.6018:

Water field, Well for Blood, Warrior Shout, etc etc. All of these are support healing. And they are all very important to the army in WvW. By definition, these players are support healers.

A berserker will obvious not care about these support healing or any buffs and supports. They will never be part of it. They are playing roaming/headless chicken style.

Yes, those are wvw field medics. But why do berserkers not care about buffs and support? I, as the player, always want stacks of mights or long duration of protection.

Let’s be honest here. Roamers/headless chickens are not part of the army. Roamers do their own thing for the most part. They do not support each other. They are just there, with other roamers, to deal DPS fast enough in these DPS tests/check.

I am not saying this is the wrong way to play PvE. But it gets very boring when every single Living Story event is about roaming/headless chickens/DPS test. The PvE gameplay should be diverse enough that the army style have a role too.

As for PvP, of course people uses berserker there. In small scale fights berserker have no problem. It is in WvW where berserker dies too often to be popular, because the enemy human zergs have no problem killing berserker players.

You are also not the part of the army. You’re a lone hero or adventurer. Or am I wrong?

WvW style is the correct style for large scale fights. The more players are involved, the less roaming and more organized the army need to be to win.

And yes that’s exactly the reason why berserker is not viable in WvW zergs. They are designed to roam/headless chicken. Berserkers are never meant to fight within an organized army.

Do you have any military qualifications to claim that? I thought every army needs people to scout areas ahead of it as well as its flanks. I think Sun Tzu said something along this. I’ve played some time in total war series and without scouts I wouldn’t have got far.

Moreover, roamers don’t play berserker’s, they play condition bunkers

The game should have 3 balances for 3 different group sizes. One around 5 men. The other around 15 men. The last 50+ men.

5 men – dungeons
15 men – separated zerg
50+ men – united zerg

Fractal is a dungeon. Bring that up is pointless in a talk about Living Story Instanced Events. The group size is very different. So the gameplay style should be different.

Once again I am not against dungeons roamers/headless chicken/DPS test. But there is too much of that going on right now. The game needs variety. Anet should stop making these Living Story Instanced Events into a dungeon. Instead they should aim for the WvW organized army model.

As for Teq, it seems you totally missed my point:

Berserkers, or anyone, dying isn’t the cause of event failure.
The timer running out is the cause of event failure.

So I don’t know why you bring that up again (berserkers do die! I see them die!). Sure some players will die, but overall the players do not die enough. Why? Because the mobs are very very bad at killing the players in Living Story Instanced Events.

Maybe it should but it won’t be balanced around group sizes, more likely it will be balanced around game modes.

According to you, berserkers are not viable for those armies in wvw and you want to introduce it in pve. Isn’t that going to actually reduce variety? Right now, everything is viable in pve, if you introduce your concepts, berserkers will stop being used.

People dying are the cause of the failure because you spend your limited time on rezzing them or you simply cannot inflict damage because, well, you’re dead.

You also seem to either misuse the term instance or you don’t understand it. Living story events aren’t instanced, they’re persistent.

haviz.1340:

Yes, those are wvw field medics. But why do berserkers not care about buffs and support? I, as the player, always want stacks of mights or long duration of protection.

Remember that you original statement was:

“Putting down water field once every 15 or 45 seconds doesn’t equal to have a role of a healer. "

I am glad that we come to an agreement that there is indeed part-time support healers in GW2. (you saying “Yes, those are wvw field medics.”) And by definition, healing power and buff/condition duration are all important for that role. And hence gear choices have a huge part in that.

As for “why do berserkers not care about buffs in WvW?”, it is a funny situation. Obviously everyone, including bererkers, wants buffs and heals. But I will say that they don’t want it enough.

Why?

Because there is a 90% chance of berserkers dying in that very first engagement, if they follow their commander.

Once a berserker is down/dead, he cannot be healed or buffed. It is game over for him/her until the next fight. He will miss the second, third and fourth engagements.

So instead, a great majority of the berserkers would refuse to follow their commander. During a zerg fight, they would do the roaming/headless chicken style of fighting. (To be fair, they may stay around for that first round of buffs before the whole fight. But once the fight has started, these berserkers are usually on their own. They will not fight with their army.)

In short: Berserker users in WvW do not want healing/buffs enough to give up their damage. Damage > survival/healing/buffs to them.

You are also not the part of the army. You’re a lone hero or adventurer. Or am I wrong?

When there is 80+ players in one map fighting against mobs, I will say every player in there is considered part of the army.

An un-organized and untrained army due to the current game play mechanics, unfortunately.

Don’t get me wrong I also enjoy that lone hero/adventure part of things. I like dungeons too. But I see huge problems if these World Events (80+ players) are modelled after dungeons (5 players), because they shouldn’t. World Events should model after WvW (80+ players), where its of the similar scale.

I thought every army needs people to scout areas ahead of it as well as its flanks.

Firstly, the current fighting style of World Events have nothing to do with scouting. Scouting means going ahead of the main army, and reporting the situation back to the main army.

The current fighting style in world events is roaming/headless chicken. This isn’t scouting. Come on it is ridiculous to say all 50 players against one Knight are all scouting!

Scouting is part of the organized army. My server in WvW do use scouts (e.g. thieves) to scout ahead, so we are warned about an enemy zerg well before the fight and prevent an ambush.

Now let’s look at PvE and World Events:

How many World Events so far requires humans to scout, because the mob zerg are smart enough to ambush the players? Zero!

I look forward to the day when the mobs are smart enough to do so.

According to you, berserkers are not viable for those armies in wvw and you want to introduce it in pve. Isn’t that going to actually reduce variety? Right now, everything is viable in pve, if you introduce your concepts, berserkers will stop being used.

If you read I said all along, I was NEVER against berserker. I never said berserker should have no role (e.g. zero) whatsoever.

What I am against is DPS tests in World Events, which encourages everyone to use berserker. Read: Everyone. This is a result of a combination of countdown timer, huge boss hp, rarely hitting but massive damage attacks and these bosses/mobs being very bad at killing the players. .

I was promoting build diversity. I am saying that all builds and all gear types should have equally important roles in the success of a World Event.

People dying are the cause of the failure because you spend your limited time on rezzing them or you simply cannot inflict damage because, well, you’re dead.

Yes! That’s exactly what I was saying before.

-Berserker users must survive long enough to deal enough damage to avoid being overwhelmed by waves after waves of mobs.
-Tanks must heal and absorb damage enough to keep their berserkers alive, so these berserkers can deal enough damage to kill the waves after waves of mobs.
-Hybrids are somewhere in between.

There! Everyone, every class, every build and every gear have their uses. That’s what I want future World Events to aim for!

And no, that’s is not already happening. I already explained the reasons many many times.

Living story events aren’t instanced, they’re persistent.

Marionette and Teq are presistent (in the real world). LA and the Knight is instanced (in its own world, with its own event going on.)

kokiman.2364:

CHIPS.6018:

So I just tried that “Kill 3 Legendary Clockworks” quest. It is nothing but a DPS test. Can we please stop having quests like these?

These quests are saying:
If you are not using berserker gear, go home.

No these “quest”, they are actually called events, are not a DPS check, they are events that encourage people to play together. The biggest problem right now is, that there are way to many “unique snowflakes” around that keep shouting “I PLAY HOW I WANT AND YOU PLAY HOW YOU WANT” which is something that just doesn’t work in a genre that is all about playing together.

People ARE unique snowflakes, and in a public game, you should NOT expect everybody doing the same thing/using the same builds, especially on public events.

There will always be people with their own fashion sense, music taste, etc. It may be even considered odd, but it’s their right, even if many people would be “annoyed” at their freedom to live and choose freely in public.

And they are right. You play how you want, as well you should, and they play how they want. Leave them alone, as they also leave you alone to enjoy your more DPS oriented style, which is also fine.

Funny enough, I played those knight event with my condi-heavy nade engi and killed the bosses just fine. Perhaps, you guys haven’t read its tool tips? [Mode-change]? Hello? [Condition Crash] when power level lowers the more conditions applied to it? Dynamic Holographic Knight? Hmm…? It’s surprisingly a very balanced fight that requires both DPS and condi damage.

So why the hatred to berserkers?

IrisTheCasual.3742:

Funny enough, I played those knight event with my condi-heavy nade engi and killed the bosses just fine. Perhaps, you guys haven’t read its tool tips? [Mode-change]? Hello? [Condition Crash] when power level lowers the more conditions applied to it? Dynamic Holographic Knight? Hmm…? It’s surprisingly a very balanced fight that requires both DPS and condi damage.

So why the hatred to berserkers?

Well, for all we know condi-crash doesn’t actually benefit condition specs, and 50 zerkers can easily max the debuff through crit-procs and skills that happen to apply conditions by default. The blue holo is better, but generally can be zerged down.

And of course zerkers aren’t 200% useless in their “opposed” phase.

@Photoloss
I think the point was that even 150 condi-players would easily kill the knights + the holograms. No problem at all.

Hence the whole “omg DPS tests!” is a bit misplaced. The fights are so easy you can get by spamming AA on a condition spec by just swapping to a power weapon. And you’re fine. Your damage is even fine, compared to what the fight requires.

Carighan.6758:

@Photoloss
I think the point was that even 150 condi-players would easily kill the knights + the holograms. No problem at all.

Hence the whole “omg DPS tests!” is a bit misplaced. The fights are so easy you can get by spamming AA on a condition spec by just swapping to a power weapon. And you’re fine. Your damage is even fine, compared to what the fight requires.

How would 150 condi players survive the first 25% hp? Let alone get through both reflect phases in time? Only use autoattacks that don’t apply conditions or finishers?

This condition reflect is too simple and discriminating to be called a proper combat mechanic in the current state of the game. If the fight is so easy it can still be completed with only condi specs autoattacking with power weapons that means it’s a failed attempt at a dps test.

The only true mechanic is the pull attack, which admittedly many are too dumb/lazy to dodge even once. Outside of organised 6min attempts I’m one of them because the fight is so boring I tab out every few seconds once it’s clear we’ll win. I have yet to fully die doing so, on a zerker mesmer.

As I said, all you have to do is swap to a power weapon. No need to change spec or gear.

Carighan.6758:

As I said, all you have to do is swap to a power weapon. No need to change spec or gear.

Switching to a completely unsupported weapon is “changing spec”. To a bad one, but still. And this thread is not about how to l2p and beat the knights, it’s about the fact that the steps we do know already are restrictive, discriminating, uninspired, boring and go against anet’s stated goal of reducing the zerker meta.

CHIPS.6018:

So I just tried that “Kill 3 Legendary Clockworks” quest. It is nothing but a DPS test. Can we please stop having quests like these?

These quests are saying:
If you are not using berserker gear, go home.

The point still stands in that zerker is vastly superior with no compensation for other playstyles. It mostly fails because people have no clue and refuse to listen, but then a “difficulty measure” would be “how many people can afk/be dead while the others play properly and still win”. Spoiler: zerker wins out by a huge margin.