Guild Wars 2

their been a lot of speculation around the main dragon behind scarlet’s plans (good intentions or bad) I think a lot of the forum thread have had valid arguments for both dragons/gods whatever you want to believe.

is it possible that both dragons or one are at play here, or none of them at all.

I would say scarlet wants to harness the dragons power like that of the people of orr did resulting in the fall of orr, what for who knows maybe away to merge the two universes together the one the aetherblades come from because their technology defiantly not of our world. all the steam stuff comes from another world, caused by the thrum reactors explosion and it creating small riffs connecting the two worlds. maybe with enough power scarlet could make a permanent portal to that world or bring back something from that world that don’t exist in this one ( not suggesting zhaitian thou) I would guess the rise of any dragon would just be the fallout of scarlet trying to harness the power for herself. i guess you need an army like she got if things go wrong and you have to kill a dragon. she defiantly got a good weed killer made by the toxic alliance since an antitoxin was created. but everything speculation and i glad anet done the storytelling this way for the different possible ending to this chapter. i cant see this being the end of scarlets grand plan guessing just another setback that equals more destruction and trouble in tyria.

I hope scarlet takes over the world.

Nightmare.1234:

their been a lot of speculation around the main dragon behind scarlet’s plans (good intentions or bad)

I don’t think, her intentions can be measured in “good” or “bad”.
From what I take, her intentions are pretty much neutral. Her actions, on the other hand…
Let’s not talk about her actions here. My take on her plans is, that she simply wants to shut up that annoying voice in her head. Mordremoth seems more likely, but it might not even be a dragon at all.

Probably gonna be mordawg after scarlet finally dies or goes away

Mordremoth is the one who I think Scarlet is afraid of from her description in her dairy. I expect primordus to be one of the last dragons. Jormag and Kralkatkorrik will probably be a expensions since the crystal desert, norn homelands are big unexplored areas easy to add in new stuff their. The deep sea dragon will probably be another living story.

Im with you naphack on the voices part they don’t seem dragon like at times but more human. she defiantly a whole lot of crazy thou. the journal was wrote probley after killing omadd so could just be guilty voices in her head.

I wasn’t sure either, until Vorpp said this in the Dead End bar.

Vorpp

Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.
I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?

Initially I had thought she’d somehow contacted Primordus, but if Vorpp is correct she can’t find anything in that device that isn’t part of her already. This seems to be something the Pale Tree is aware of, and warned her about.

If she is under the control of an Elder Dragon, it has some rather unpleasant implications about what the Pale Tree(s), and sylvari by extension, are. It also indicates that the Pale Tree is shielding them from this influence, making her role something like Glint – she’s there to raise an army for her dragon commander, but has no intention to obey.

I find it interesting that sylvari alone could not be corrupted by Zhaitan.

Ben K.6238:

I wasn’t sure either, until Vorpp said this in the Dead End bar.

Vorpp

Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought.
I surmise she was directly exposed to a part of her own psyche that had been carefully walled off. Perhaps for her own protection?

Initially I had thought she’d somehow contacted Primordus, but if Vorpp is correct she can’t find anything in that device that isn’t part of her already. This seems to be something the Pale Tree is aware of, and warned her about.

If she is under the control of an Elder Dragon, it has some rather unpleasant implications about what the Pale Tree(s), and sylvari by extension, are. It also indicates that the Pale Tree is shielding them from this influence, making her role something like Glint – she’s there to raise an army for her dragon commander, but has no intention to obey.

I find it interesting that sylvari alone could not be corrupted by Zhaitan.

It’s not just by Zhaitan – they are immune to dragon corruption full stop.

Lets see how immune they are when my lord Jormag comes around and freezes all their little plant butts. :|

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Ben K.6238:

I find it interesting that sylvari alone could not be corrupted by Zhaitan.

It’s not just by Zhaitan – they are immune to dragon corruption full stop.

Right… and if it turns out that’s because they’re already minions of another dragon, it would explain that nicely.

The more mundane explanation is that dragons can’t work with the sylvari physiology, but given that Jormag and Kralkatorrik were able to corrupt elementals, I don’t think it’s physiology stopping them.

Perhaps the Nightmare court are the minions of Mordremoth and the Dream from the pale tree protects them from his influence. Seems reasonable anyway.

Nightmare.1234:

I would say scarlet wants to harness the dragons power like that of the people of orr did resulting in the fall of orr,

The Vizir of Orr used scrolls of power to prevent the Charr invasion….

Ben K.6238:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Ben K.6238:

I find it interesting that sylvari alone could not be corrupted by Zhaitan.

It’s not just by Zhaitan – they are immune to dragon corruption full stop.

Right… and if it turns out that’s because they’re already minions of another dragon, it would explain that nicely.

The more mundane explanation is that dragons can’t work with the sylvari physiology, but given that Jormag and Kralkatorrik were able to corrupt elementals, I don’t think it’s physiology stopping them.

Actually, it’d make it confusing. See Crucible of Eternity – dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption.

So if the sylvari are dragon minions… yet are immune to all dragons’ corruption… but dragon minions are not immune to other dragons’ corruption… yeah, that makes no sense.

TBH, it’s likely something related to the Dream – which is unique to the Pale Tree amongst sylvari (but not unique to her alone, given the White Stag) – Malyck had no Dream of Dreams. It’d be interesting to see if Malyck and the sylvari from his tree can be corrupted.

Have we seen any Risen plants?

Have we seen any animal-based Husks?

I don’t think the Sylvari are immune to the corruption of Zaitan for any more mystical reason than they lie outside its purview.

trouble with malyck is he is an anomaly and somewhat of a exception to all the other sylvari, and to my knowledge there are no others from his ‘tree’ met or otherwise. Coe inquest experiments on dragon minions are a project to harness dragon energies for the inquest to exploit. So inquest are twisting and manipulating the standard minions. in their natural form the minions are not influenced by each other or their masters to my knowlegde. This prevents counteractive corruption between dragons, and allows them to focus on their sphere of influence without any competition from their ‘siblings’. Thus ultimatly hastening the goals of all dragons as their energies are directed to just those that oppose their grand plan.

i’ll be vehemently disappointed if ‘mordremoth’ is the spotlight of the living world ending
it would be somewhat groundbreaking if arenanet revealed scarlet to be clinically insane

what about both Pri & Morg show up to destroy Scarlet ?

Well actually I have a theory that I’ve been working on for a bit.

First off, the Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption (at least Zhaitan’s corruption). Since we’ve no idea if we can have a creature be corrupted multiple times with other elder dragon corruptions, it stands to reason that it’s not possible to have multi-corrupted creatures (though this is not proven). Therefore it stands to reason that the Sylvari are dragon minions with free will (hey if a dragon champion[Glint] can have free will, so can the lesser minions). Which if that’s the case, then Scarlet’s “madness” could actually be the influence of the dragon Mordremoth.

Now if we say that Scarlet is trying to awaken (knowingly or not) Primordus (which is very likely due to the fact that he’s asleep underground somewhere), why would Mordremoth want to awaken another dragon? Well… what if all the dragons are aligned with each other? If so then it’s possible that with the defeat of Zhaitan, Mordremoth (which I assume is already awaken) could have found out about this (somehow), wants to awaken Primordus and strike at it’s enemies.

Course my theory is not complete and we’ve no idea if Primordus is under Lion’s Arch or if Scarlet’s trying to use the lay lines to do something else with it. (Note: Abaddon is dead and long gone so no chance with that one, PLUS GW2 is more to do with dragons, not demonic gods.)

Tenu you’re off on a couple points. The dragons are confirmed not allies – they will fight each other – and Mordremoth is still sleeping. Primordus is already awake; he was the first to awaken. It happened at the end of GW1. I do think that Scarlet is under Mordy’s control, and Primordus may still be involved. My current theory is as such:

When sleeping, the dragons are connected to the leylines. Over time magic builds in the leylines until it reaches some critical point, at which time the dragon sleeping on that leyline awakens to feast on it. Somehow this is also tied to their minions: defeating the Great Destroyer kept Primy asleep for a while longer. The fact that Mordremoth is still sleeping means either that his leyline hasn’t hit its critical point yet or that something went wrong with its minions.

So it seems to me that Scarlet wants at that leyline because it’s the one that Mordremoth is sleeping on, and she’s going to do something to it that triggers him to rise. The drill is to get down there; the only loose end is that Marionette. What is it for? Well, two ideas:

• Maybe Primordus is down there munching on that leyline, and maybe that’s what is keeping it from reaching the critical point. The Marionette is for fighting him – that’s what the toxin is for too – and driving him off. Maybe not, in which case:

• IF the sylvari turn out to be dragon minions, and the Pale Tree a purified champion, then perhaps that’s somehow interfering with Mordy’s awakening. I’ll bet you the roots of the Pale Tree touch that leyline. In this case the Marionette and toxin are for killing the Pale Tree.

Personally the first seems more plausible to me; the fact that the Marionette comes out of the bottom of the drill suggests to me that she needs to use it down in the Depths where the leyline is. Otherwise she’d have to fly the drill over to the Tree and why not just use the drill itself (or that Aether fleet) to do the job? Unless she wants to kick and chop and burn the tree herself, and that Marionette is the closest thing she’s got to a Gundam. Also it’s symbolic of Scarlet being a puppet on Mordy’s strings.

ill bet gold we don’t even kill scarlet a dragon does

I still think its probably neither, its the Mursaat. Most likely Lazarus the Dire. If its not them, then probably Mordremoth (or the Pale tree going evil/rogue due to something).

trunks.5249:

ill bet gold we don’t even kill scarlet a dragon does

Even then she probably won’t die. She’ll come back as some kind of Scarlet 2.0…

It’s not the Mursaat. It’s Mordremoth.

Lazarus wanted revenge on humanity and the Mursaat phased OUT of the world last time the dragons came. They aren’t about to show up in the midst of a world that is current infested with Elder Dragons.

I like the mistery around the sylvari, is the only thing that seems interesting in all the gw 2 lore, the other events since the release seem pretty straightforward and shallow to me (expecially compared to the lore of gw 1).
So, just to throw here my opinion: the pale is born from a seed planted from a soldier. this soldier found that seed in a cavern protected by other deadly plants.
Its possible that the pale tree was created as a weapon BUT since the guy who planted it sweared to leave the war and live a peaceful life, this somewhat changed the tree alignement, expecially considered that during his life and after his death the tree was raised by a centaur that also refused violence (as you can also see from the tablet he left under the tree and that Sylvari refer to in every aspect of their life as a sacred guide).
So long story short: pale tree evil origin, ronan (the soldier) and ventari (the centaur) influenced him raising him with their strong idealistic and peaceful alignement.
The pale tree is fighting since then to overcome the evil power he was created with.
The fact that his stated that “Ceara encountered something that literally broke her mind, but the only things in there were things she brought” support the idea that the pale tree itself is in one way or another a source of evil.

Then what of the Tree Malyck comes from ?

Malyck lost his memory. He had no idea who he was or where he came from. No clue as to what his purpose in life was. He may be evil for all we know. He could be the other pale tree’s version of the nightmare court or he could be a force of good against a corrupt pale tree from where he is from.

The Sylvari personal story says we will go help him one day. Perhaps we will meet him again to fight by his side or against him as he regains his memories.

Either way, Malyck and the tree from which he came are unknown entities at the moment. All we do know is he has an inherent desire for good, given his reaction to the knightmare court and the prospects faced by the wardens that found him. Whether he ignores that good or embraces it, is yet to be seen.

The Pale tree is a she by the way.
Also as RedStar points out – we know Pale Tree’s aren’t evil since Malyck comes from another Tree. Whilst Malyck is not quite as peaceful as our Sylvari, he is by no means evil.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Pale tree is a she by the way.
Also as RedStar points out – we know Pale Tree’s aren’t evil since Malyck comes from another Tree. Whilst Malyck is not quite as peaceful as our Sylvari, he is by no means evil.

I didn’t say the pale tree was male, I said Malyck was male. Also you don’t know all pale trees are good. Malyck lost his memory, his tree could be evil, he didn’t know – in fact he didn’t know what a pale tree was, let alone its level of good vs evil.

Those are good point, but I still feel like Malyck as an undefined entity (with also a memory loss) cannot be taken as a proof. I don’t mean that it doesn’t have a purpose, just that since details are still unclear his existence by himself doesn’t rule out my idea, or at least the most of it. Obviusly since its just speculation I may just have found an idea that I like and that will never be part of the real plot.

Ema.4953:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Pale tree is a she by the way.
Also as RedStar points out – we know Pale Tree’s aren’t evil since Malyck comes from another Tree. Whilst Malyck is not quite as peaceful as our Sylvari, he is by no means evil.

I didn’t say the pale tree was male, I said Malyck was male. Also you don’t know all pale trees are good. Malyck lost his memory, his tree could be evil, he didn’t know – in fact he didn’t know what a pale tree was, let alone its level of good vs evil.

The Pale tree being female was aimed at SirBigMark, not at you. You posted while I was writing my response, so yours ended up on top of mine even though I hadn’t seen it before

Also, Maylck is not connected to the Dream, which suggests that the Dream itself is unique to our Pale Tree and that other Pale Tree’s are not sentient (she uses the Dream to communicate so without the Dream it would make sense if she couldn’t talk to the Sylvari). So I’m pretty sure any other Pale trees are completely neutral in that they don’t have an alignment, are not sentient in the same way that our tree is, and don’t have a connection to the dream.

Even if one of our Sylvari lost their memory, they should still be connected to the dream. Otherwise the Soundless would have a much easier time of things.

@SirBigmark, yeah Malyck had lost his memory – but he is still proof that there is another Pale Tree. We KNOW that he is not from our Tree, otherwise the Pale Tree would know him – and she does not.

Well I never said that he his not from another tree or that the pale tree is the only one, the story of Ronan itself tell that there was a lot of those seeds in that cave.
I just don’t think that the fact that another tree exist is a valid couterargument to the fact that tree may have an evil origin and the pale was somewhat changed by who raised him.
Malyck its just one sylvari that doesn’t know nothing, he may be raised from an evil tree,he may be raised from a neutral tree that turned evil and escaped since then, he may be a xxxxx time traveler for what we know.

Nike.2631:

Have we seen any Risen plants?

Yes. Sparkfly Fen and throughout Orr.

Nike.2631:

I don’t think the Sylvari are immune to the corruption of Zaitan for any more mystical reason than they lie outside its purview.

They’re also immune to Kralkatorrik outright – and in the Dragonbrand we have hundreds of corrupted plants.

SnicerTenu.4321:

First off, the Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption (at least Zhaitan’s corruption). Since we’ve no idea if we can have a creature be corrupted multiple times with other elder dragon corruptions, it stands to reason that it’s not possible to have multi-corrupted creatures (though this is not proven).

It actually is proven. Subject Alpha, Kudu, and Kudu’s Monster in Crucible of Eternity (both story and explorable) are creatures influenced by multiple dragon corruptions.

SnicerTenu.4321:

Therefore it stands to reason that the Sylvari are dragon minions with free will (hey if a dragon champion[Glint] can have free will, so can the lesser minions). Which if that’s the case, then Scarlet’s “madness” could actually be the influence of the dragon Mordremoth.

Glint only gained free will due to an ancient, long-lost, magical ritual performed by the Forgotten. It wasn’t something she gained by herself. See Arah explorable, Forgotten path.

SnicerTenu.4321:

Now if we say that Scarlet is trying to awaken (knowingly or not) Primordus (which is very likely due to the fact that he’s asleep underground somewhere), why would Mordremoth want to awaken another dragon? Well… what if all the dragons are aligned with each other? If so then it’s possible that with the defeat of Zhaitan, Mordremoth (which I assume is already awaken) could have found out about this (somehow), wants to awaken Primordus and strike at it’s enemies.

Primordus is already awake. He was, in fact, the first Elder Dragon to wake up.

Furthermore, we know that the Elder Dragons are not allied to each other. In fact, their minions will fight if they meet (stated in an interview, no minions interact beyond being under Subject Alpha’s control).

Ema.4953:

Malyck lost his memory. He had no idea who he was or where he came from. No clue as to what his purpose in life was. He may be evil for all we know. He could be the other pale tree’s version of the nightmare court or he could be a force of good against a corrupt pale tree from where he is from.

The Sylvari personal story says we will go help him one day. Perhaps we will meet him again to fight by his side or against him as he regains his memories.

Erm… Malyck never lost his memory. If you did the Caithe split for that storyline, you’d see him perfectly recall everything from his awakening. The statement of memory loss is the player character’s presumption because Malyck didn’t know of the Pale Tree, Grove, or Dream of Dreams.

Given that Ceara brought something into Omadd’s chamber, it can only really be Mordremoth. This all but entirely eliminates poor kitten Primordus

I don’t see how it “can only really be Mordremoth”.

There are hundreds of other possibilities, really. Why must it be Mordremoth? Because of the debunked fan theory of sylvari being dragon minions? Because of the no-context, may-not-even-be-made-by-Scarlet, cave painting of a dragon in her lair beneath Durmand Priory?

Dhuum’s known for influencing people, as are demons like Kanaxai (not suggesting Kanaxai, but presenting him as an example for something similar to, but not the same individual as, Kanaxai), as are mesmers in general. Who’s to say that this isn’t some trick by Faolain? Hmm? Hmm?

While Mordremoth currently is the Occam’s Razor potential, he is not the “only” possibility.

SnicerTenu.4321:

Well actually I have a theory that I’ve been working on for a bit.

First off, the Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption (at least Zhaitan’s corruption). Since we’ve no idea if we can have a creature be corrupted multiple times with other elder dragon corruptions, it stands to reason that it’s not possible to have multi-corrupted creatures (though this is not proven). Therefore it stands to reason that the Sylvari are dragon minions with free will (hey if a dragon champion[Glint] can have free will, so can the lesser minions). Which if that’s the case, then Scarlet’s “madness” could actually be the influence of the dragon Mordremoth.

Now if we say that Scarlet is trying to awaken (knowingly or not) Primordus (which is very likely due to the fact that he’s asleep underground somewhere), why would Mordremoth want to awaken another dragon? Well… what if all the dragons are aligned with each other? If so then it’s possible that with the defeat of Zhaitan, Mordremoth (which I assume is already awaken) could have found out about this (somehow), wants to awaken Primordus and strike at it’s enemies.

Course my theory is not complete and we’ve no idea if Primordus is under Lion’s Arch or if Scarlet’s trying to use the lay lines to do something else with it. (Note: Abaddon is dead and long gone so no chance with that one, PLUS GW2 is more to do with dragons, not demonic gods.)

I like this one, but Abaddon is not dead, he has no power but he isn’t dead. just wanted to correct that cuz im an kitten.

I think that we will face Zhaitan one more time:
1. Painting in Scarlet’s cave looks like Tequatl.
2. New powers of Tequatl are linked to the living story.
3. Devs said that they will remake fight against Zhaitan (it was long time ago… Don’t blame me if I am wrong, my memory of old news related to this game is full of holes)
4. We have not seen his corpse.

NolanP.7604:

SnicerTenu.4321:

Well actually I have a theory that I’ve been working on for a bit.

First off, the Sylvari are immune to dragon corruption (at least Zhaitan’s corruption). Since we’ve no idea if we can have a creature be corrupted multiple times with other elder dragon corruptions, it stands to reason that it’s not possible to have multi-corrupted creatures (though this is not proven). Therefore it stands to reason that the Sylvari are dragon minions with free will (hey if a dragon champion[Glint] can have free will, so can the lesser minions). Which if that’s the case, then Scarlet’s “madness” could actually be the influence of the dragon Mordremoth.

Now if we say that Scarlet is trying to awaken (knowingly or not) Primordus (which is very likely due to the fact that he’s asleep underground somewhere), why would Mordremoth want to awaken another dragon? Well… what if all the dragons are aligned with each other? If so then it’s possible that with the defeat of Zhaitan, Mordremoth (which I assume is already awaken) could have found out about this (somehow), wants to awaken Primordus and strike at it’s enemies.

Course my theory is not complete and we’ve no idea if Primordus is under Lion’s Arch or if Scarlet’s trying to use the lay lines to do something else with it. (Note: Abaddon is dead and long gone so no chance with that one, PLUS GW2 is more to do with dragons, not demonic gods.)

I like this one, but Abaddon is not dead, he has no power but he isn’t dead. just wanted to correct that cuz im an kitten.

I think thats wrong. I’m pretty sure devs have explicitly stated that Abaddon is dead. (wish I was good with link/remembering whats in interview/videos so I could link it.)

First, if its not Mordremoth the whole thing will look weird.

Second, i believe at the end of GW1, aside from Primordus, other ED were already trying to awake (tied to the critical points of energy on ley lines theory) and thus creating its champions, which give them strenght and extra domination (see how Eye of Zhaitan acts and its death consequences).
I believe Pale TreeS ( i bet there are more) are actually nightmare trees, Mordremoth’s Champions, and the one we know is like Glint, but was “anti-corrupted” by Ventari. And Omag’s Machine probly got scarllet to face the truth, ending up in contact with it’s original master. (Pale Tree on starter sylvari quest influences us all to fight the nightmare*Mordre’s influence*)
And with that, shes kinda crazy trying to kill him. As others already sad:

-Inquest Tech to find Mordre.
-Dredge Drills to reach it.
-Steam technology to build an army (like we similar did to defeat Zhaitan)
-Marionette to directly oppose him.
-Toxic Poison (poison and fire are nature’s natural enemies) to kill him once and for all.

And i believe she thinks shes fighting to kill him, when actually Mordre’s Voice is using her to awaken.