Guild Wars 2

After a few days of farming Karma I’m ready to give what I think about it, and what it could do better. The game is new, the devs are listening, please help me do some noise.

- First: DEs are awesome, I like doing them. I like the area we are doing it. If I’m alone everywhere seems to be dangerous. With a group of 3 its perfect. The problem comes with the farming Karma train wreck. Why can’t we split servers even more like an overflow? Make the area a little less crowded so everyone can actually enjoy and see the events? There is so much people that events are so easy and just a “zerg”. You guys have the tech to separate and split. Why not make the area more dangerous by making people Meaningfully stay grouped and explore.

Which Brings me to:

Loot: The game is set to be so friendly, no node sharing, no kill steal. But In DE’s that actually happens! People spec to AoE just to to damage every enemy in (and often out) of sight! That’s preposterous! People memorizing and targeting big strong AoEs even before Enemies spawn, leaving many with no chance to actually make damage and therefore no Loot!.

Which brings me to:

AoE: Why are we rewarding AoErs? I mean in my definition a good AoE is a less powerful spell but more broad in Area, yet (and probably because of the immense number of AoErs AND the fact that Enemies HP doesn’t seem to scale (very well or at all)) they are wrecking everything! One could say “Just Spec to AoE as Well”. I don’t want to, If I recall the game is all about play your way, I do not want to change my weapon and my spec for it. Can we please tone AoE Down, or Enemies HP On, or change Loot Design? This is My MAIN point for this Post.

My suggestion:

There are a number of ways to make this work. But something must be done, I want to enjoy the events I’m doing, not try to use my AoE first so I can have a shot on the mob loot.

Split population in higher areas, making people work more together as a group not a zerg.
Change loot rules and design
Make events a little bit harder
Upgrade normal mobs health
Simply tuning AoE specs down

Bonus: MF.
It may be just a personal grudge, but MF it’s a breaker. I know its a gold “sinker” (and maker), it’s something that makes you have a set just to farm and all. But why mess with the loot like that? Why not leave the game with the original feeling of reward, feeling good when you are lucky, feeling okay when you aren’t. I KNOW for a fact there are alot of Greedy people, but Magic Find is just bad imo. I know, I know, “Just don’t use it”. But as loot stands now I feel very much obligated to do it X.×. But I know for a fact that this won’t change…

Thanks for reading, and I would very much like for you guys to give your input and maybe have a good feedback for the Devs? I think we need some changes..

Joker.6158:

Why can’t we split servers even more like an overflow?

As far as I know, overflow servers had more people than live servers.

I agree with the things u said, and would like to add some stuff:

Lets start with premisse that GW2 is suppose to be a fun game, like all add, trailers and interviews keep saying.

What is fun for you? for me? for them? for anyone?

I say fun is do what u like just by the pleasure of joy. When u play as a child u have fun, for example.

In real life, we have fun by doing what makes us happy, and things makes us happy cause they reward us in some points, being it social, monetary or even by helping others. The feeling when make the difference, and then is recognized for it makes life fun. In the job, in your house, in vacation, all of them give u fun if u do a thing u like and are reward for that.

Fun: Do what u want + Rewarded for that + Recognized

In GW2 since BETA NCSoft and Anet keep saying that this is a game about fun, about your story, about what u want in a game, with no pressure to do things in rush, just enjoy the moment.

I’m sure every single soul that paid 80$ to get the game expects to have fun.

Iv been playing from Head-start. Didnt get hacked nor anything like that, always could log-in as much as i wanted.

So lets talk about Fun in the game:

1) When we do what we want, we end up feeling like idiots, cause we dont gain absolute nothing for it.
Example:
Fun: I want to kill monsters and discover places while leveling up.
Reality: If u dont do DE one after another, farm Hearts and 100% maps, ur not leveling up. Explore dont mean following a trail of icons in the map, that would be “visiting” or something like that. Explore is involved with discovering what u want, the time u want, the way u want. I created an alt yesterday and just gone to exploring at killing mobs as i wanted. The result is that u level up in a terrible way. Trapped at low levels for hours. If i follow EXACT what the game command me (hearts, SP, POI) then i will level up in a normal way.

So, wheres the fun? U removed “mark quests” and add MUST DO hearts. Its the same feeling of being forced to do content.

2) When u reach lvl 80, and want to make money, or skins, or even collect something, u cant just do what u want or you will be getting to nowhere.
I had just did a 1 hour chain of events in Orr (the highest lvl map) and the chest rewards me with a couple blues/greens.
If we wanted blue/greens we would get it in a few minutes killing random Risen far from the event.
So we do what we believe its fun (in this case a good Orr chain) and get a reward that we would get by doing a totally not fun thing.

So the game is rewarding those that do EXACTLY what the MAP ICONS order to them.
The game is rewarding those who GRIND endless the SAME ACTIVITY.

That’s how it’s going.
I’m a former GW1 player and im very disappointed with GW2 being so “greedy” with itself. We can only feel “progress” if we follow what DEV has commanded us to do. Anything else is considered “not fun, not worthy”.

I sure im not the only one who really liked when defeating a campaing and receiving a perfect AND unique skin reward. (yeah, perfect and unique)
Im sure we miss leveling all the way from lvl 1 just doing the campaign(story mode).
Im sure we miss not worrying about doing a hard thing, cause we could be sure we would receive an “even” reward for it.

I look forward to this game, once i believe u are GW2, and by being so, u will implement the fun factor of the first series into this game.
Thanks

“With a group of 3 its perfect. The problem comes with the farming Karma train wreck. Why can’t we split servers even more like an overflow? Make the area a little less crowded so everyone can actually enjoy and see the events?You guys have the tech to separate and split.”
-so… you want to go to the mall, but hate crowds, but refuse to go to standalone smaller stores – therefore, the mall needs to be designed to be a mall, but geared towards you, and maybe 2 friends? you just suggested they break up the one, single, solitary thing that has appeared in GW2, an MMO, as a large social event – wow

“People spec to AoE just to to damage every enemy in (and often out) of sight! That’s preposterous!”
-no it’s ingenius, but fairly pointless – they spec to get Gold on the event, no one gets that many loots in zergs, but here’s a tip, pick your mobs on the back or outskirts of group one at a time, and zap them – you’ll get more loot opportunities

“Split population in higher areas”
-how does altitude affect anything? kidding, but really, what’s this even mean?

“Change loot rules and design”
-to what? more loot? everyone gets best loot every fight? no matter what? sounds like botter paradise… maybe work hard for your kills? you’re saying it should be harder, but that you don’t want to work harder, yet they go hand in hand

Make events a little bit harder
-im ok with that

Hate magic find too. It’s an awful idea and I wish they would remove it from the game or at the very least remove it from armor to some separately managed item. Essentially the presence of magic find means that loots drops have to be balanced around the average magic find strength of players, so that drops get nerfed for those without it.

The AoE mob tagging game that Orr has turned into is horrible.

Event difficulty and event scaling needs a serious look into if this beautiful looking zone is to have it’s gameplay salvaged.

I am so very behind the concept of level 80 zones driven by pure dynamic events and I am desperate for the tweaks to come in asap for the vision of this idea to come into existence.

Right now, I go there to explore but participating in anything is not fun at all.

Yeh i noticed this early on in the game, if you don’t aoe then you don’t get loot and exp.
With my thief i have to use shortbow as single target dmg is useless, it’s one thing that bugs me about these events, it’s just a tag feast.

As far as I know, overflow servers had more people than live servers.

I said like overflow. About the technology. I never stumbled upon an overflow server after level 40. So why can’t we split 1 server in some “overflows”. Say Cursed Shore (Henge of Denravi 1), Cursed Shore (Henge Of Denravi 2), Cursed Shore (Henge of Denravi 3), you get it? Instead of having everyone in just 1 place. If we are not going ot Overflow means it’s not even full, but try doing events and you will see that its plenty of full.

@SsEeXxOo (are you brazilian?)

I can relate to what you are saying, but it isn’t focused in what I’ve said exactly (only partially).

@Loxias

1 – I just stated that a small group to travel thru the lands looking for events is pretty cool and enjoyable. I do not want to be alone, I like the social aspect. You probably misinterpreted, you really think that splitting say Cursed Shore in 2 would make everyone feel alone? Would “re-design” the “mall”? I bet by zerging the events you will feel much more alone than actually having a more meaningful experience on them with a little less people. What part of hitting 1 enemy once and following people around that does the same, spamming AoE just to get karma is fun to you? I mean, I know that the karma comes a little bit slow, but for the amount of work we put on it it’s super easy, I could do it with my eyes closed.

What I simply suggest is to make it less zergy, little bit more difficult and therefore more rewarding.

2 – What is pointless is to Spec in AoE to get Gold on the event mind you. I’m a Ranger AoEing with my axe that does little damage and I NEVER get a silver, and the mobs are usually killed BEFORE I can damage them. Getting gold medal is fairly ridicuolus and I heard they are trying to make even more easy. People spec AoE because that’s how you get loot. If you do a bigger amount of damage before they die, you get the loot. It’s fairly simple. Spec Heavily into AoE, Put a long-Lasting AoE in the place they will spawn, be ready to cast another not so long-lasting and it’s the recipe of the easiest loot ever. Again my question is why must I spec into that to be able to compete with the others AoE to be able to loot! It’s not about tagging the back/outskirts. Its about doing the event and being able to have a shot at looting just as much as everyone else doing it. Hows that unreasonable?

3 – What I meant on split population is just an idea of how to make it the experience more enjoyable. Which you seem to not get in on the first paragraph. Have a server like Henge of Denravi have multiple “Cursed Shore” Map, so the event by itself feels like a real event. Instead of having 30-35 AoErs running the Arena>Plinx>Brood>Abomination chain and logging off so DR doesn’t get you and rinse and repeat. It’s as dull as it gets, not to mention how poor the event scales up. So why not split the server (with the overflow tech) and have people REALLY group and and stick together with a smaller group thru the events, really experiencing it, being a little bit harder (and probably tune karma a little bit). I cant say its a good solution since I don’t know if its possible for the Devs to make it happen, it sure it would make everything a little bit more balanced.

4 – I said change loot rules, I didn’t say specifically raise loot or whatever. It sounds to me you are just skipping thru what I’m saying, not getting what I’m saying and then literally refuting out of what? Despite? If the events would be harder, AoEs would be less effective, meaning I could actually have a chance at dealing damage on them, meaning I would get loot too. Big AoErs get at least half the mob worth of loot, while I usually get 1 to 2. What you are saying is completely illogical. Bots were never part of the issue -here-, and nor was the amount of work required. I work HARDER than the AoE Train Spam, and yet you tell me I should work harder? You sound like a genius. This could go a number of ways to improve, even a cap on how much loot you get from a wave would be reasonable.

5 – Yes, events harder. finally something we seem to agree on o.0….

@roqoco

I feel you, saddly I dont think anyone will hear us.

My point was that there are only 3 place in CS that people zerg at most, and there are quite a few other events in CS & ML. Or better yet FS. They are EASILY doable with 2-3 people, and doable with 1 unless there is a particularly nasty champion involved.

Thus my mall analogy. There are lots of places that offer what you want in Orr. Literally a dozen or two. You just want it to happen at those few places that support and attracted a large group. By design. You know. Like a mall.

Turgon.8625:

The AoE mob tagging game that Orr has turned into is horrible.

Event difficulty and event scaling needs a serious look into if this beautiful looking zone is to have it’s gameplay salvaged.

I am so very behind the concept of level 80 zones driven by pure dynamic events and I am desperate for the tweaks to come in asap for the vision of this idea to come into existence.

Right now, I go there to explore but participating in anything is not fun at all.

Correct! They are very beautiful looking zones and it’s a great idea of how the game it heading towards! It just need some tweaking! Mob tagging with AoE really sucks,

raxx.8914:

Yeh i noticed this early on in the game, if you don’t aoe then you don’t get loot and exp.
With my thief i have to use shortbow as single target dmg is useless, it’s one thing that bugs me about these events, it’s just a tag feast.

I do get a fair amount of exp regardless of the tagging the enemies because of the events. But looting in the other hand is far worse. I use AoE Axe on my ranger but is far too slow to tag, and I when I use my shortbow I can tag 1 before they disappear in the AoE.

Loxias.2375:

My point was that there are only 3 place in CS that people zerg at most, and there are quite a few other events in CS & ML. Or better yet FS. They are EASILY doable with 2-3 people, and doable with 1 unless there is a particularly nasty champion involved.

Thus my mall analogy. There are lots of places that offer what you want in Orr. Literally a dozen or two. You just want it to happen at those few places that support and attracted a large group. By design. You know. Like a mall.

I see, and it’s a good analogy. But really, I don’t think you are quite on board with us in the topic. This is not only about what your analogy covers. I know I can roam with people around the map and it’s fun (when you can actually find people that won’t do zerg fest, cause just face it, it’s a karma give away with no effort), but do you get karma for doing it “the right way”? You are bound to get to the big chains anytime and join the zerg fest anyhow. Not to mention when you roam around you fight alot more random mobs than actually facing events, and when you do there it is the AoE train.

Can you honestly say that the zerg fest AoE is a good design? Why not make players roam around the actual world (as advertised "Explore The World!) on smaller groups where the events scale actually work, give a little more karma for the trouble? You make me sound like I’m nuts for what I’m asking.

About you analogy, it’s not wrong. BUT when YOU go to the mall at a certain store even if it’s crowded you still get to be “seen” by someone and have a pretty good chance to get what you want. The right analogy here would probably be me going to the mall and find alot of apes (crazy people or Black Friday or whatever you like to put here) trashing the place apart, thus making me unable to get what I want and therefore making it a very unfunctional mall.

If you think that the chain stuff is by design you are wrong again, because that’s where the DR kicks in, which everyone bypasses by relogging.

Anyways. I would like to hear more peoples mind here. Speak what you think, make some noise and maybe we can have someone answer us here? About what they actually plan doing?

I appreciate it.

Powerful AOE has been horribad game design for the last 15 years – and devs still love it.

There is no good fix – because powerful aoe deals so much damage so fast that single target toons cant even get targeted and or in position before the mobs are dead or almost dead.

As a ranger I find it is required for me to spec traps and memorize the spawn locations. The mobs die instantly after being seen and if you start to AOE as soon as you see them you don’t get credit because you are watching their death animation as soon as they spawn.

So as a trap ranger for DE’s I setup my traps, my traps go off as soon as the mobs “spawn”(not yet visible) and that is my cue to either do Whirl of Axes or Barrage on top of my traps. Doing this I get credit for every mob per spawn. More hits = more loot = more gold/hr.

Does it suck yes, I hate already having to switch my entire set of equip-able items to MF gear to get anything worth doing the events, then on top of that I have to switch my traits so I can be good at traps. In the current state of the game that is what it takes for me to be able to get credit and loot during DEs.

See I just don’t get it. I zerg in the Straits and have no issue. I get gold every event. I’m a ranger and I don’t set traps. Yes, on waves, I try to position myself to be ready for next wave, but you just don’t need to do that much to get Gold. You really, really don’t. Gear helps, though. I was struggling for even bronze pre-80 and with master-weighted gear. With rare/exotic and level 80, it’s just a cakewalk, and I’m just not a cutting edge player, thus it’s hard for me to understand the difficulty. The zerg is something that players came up with. It’s not required, it’s a bonus.

My issue is that someone who doesn’t like a large-scale social event in a game wants that event to be broken up and the players who do like it, not to mention those who led the way in making it happen, be forced to play as the minority prefers. How is this logical?

@Zierk: I’m currently leveling my ranger and always have at least Flame Trap available just for when my Daily resets and I actively look for DE. Otherwise you’re absolutely right. No loot credit.

id like to add that magic fidn does not lower the chances for otehr players to get some rare loot all loot is personaly just cause some one with higher magic find seems to get better loot then you doesnt mean they are making it a lower chance for yourself
hell a player with 2 levels lower then a mob gains just as much rare loot as a player thats on par with a mob with 20% magic find
if you choose to fight lower level monsters then yourself thats your choice but that also means less good drops
people are sayign magic find should get removed
why
magic find doesnt increase the number of items/gold found
it only increases drop chance
(as to my personal experience with 12% magic find and playing 2 levels lower then the mobs i fight with)

About AoE, if I am not mistaken, the mobs in GW1 ran away from the spot you placed your AoE. And in order to have them take that AoE you had to immobilize them, or being in a closed space that didn’t allowed for them to escape. Why isn’t this in GW2 as well? Monsters here don’t seem to realize they are standing in a rain of meteors.

Ghoest.3945:

Powerful AOE has been horribad game design for the last 15 years – and devs still love it.

There is no good fix – because powerful aoe deals so much damage so fast that single target toons cant even get targeted and or in position before the mobs are dead or almost dead.

There is no good fix, but there is ways to get a little bit better.

Loxias.2375:

See I just don’t get it. I zerg in the Straits and have no issue. I get gold every event. I’m a ranger and I don’t set traps. Yes, on waves, I try to position myself to be ready for next wave, but you just don’t need to do that much to get Gold. You really, really don’t. Gear helps, though. I was struggling for even bronze pre-80 and with master-weighted gear. With rare/exotic and level 80, it’s just a cakewalk, and I’m just not a cutting edge player, thus it’s hard for me to understand the difficulty. The zerg is something that players came up with. It’s not required, it’s a bonus.

My issue is that someone who doesn’t like a large-scale social event in a game wants that event to be broken up and the players who do like it, not to mention those who led the way in making it happen, be forced to play as the minority prefers. How is this logical?

I still feel like you are missing the point. No one is complaining about the Gold Medal, all thru the event tagging at least 3 or 4 enemies is NOT a problem. And that’s more than enough to get gold medal. As the title suggest is about the synch of AoE, Loot and DE. Which right now is a mess! Partially because of the zerg fest.

What you seem to be missing is that if you join a group to do some events, the group either try to be mobile hunting for Events all around the map, which is fun but very not karma effective specially because in a grp of 3-5 the events take quite a bit to complete, and you still have the awesome chance of running into a zerg fest in which the events complete fast and well BUT there are a few problems with that

1 – For a game that primes in the no steal kill, or anything like that for a better community and happier people, you WILL be fighting toe to toe to just TAG the enemies for LOOT. If you are not AoE spec your chances to do so are drastically reduced.

2 – You don’t really do anything, you spam your skills and “not see” everything die because with so much people and AoE it’s actually impossible to know whats really going on there.

3 – Most important, where is the fun in that? Isn’t this the game that you get rewards and have fun the WAY you want it? However you want it? It completely kills the design for faster farm. Last I checked Events are supposed to be the biggest thing in the entire game. I get what you are saying, don’t want to zerg (player invented way) go around hunt events, and I’m okay with that but it’s nowhere NEAR rewarding as just zerg, for the same reasons above.

It’s complex because the AoE + Loot issues go around the zerg, and I do understand some of your points. But understand that we are not against the “big large-social events” and we do not want to see it broken up (was just an idea to soft the issue, and it’s not illogical for SURE, as of now events DO NOT scale well after say 10 people. so breaking it up in grps of then is indeed logical.) but also its not minority prefers, it’s game content being to waste! And make no mistake, you are in the minority. People that usually defend zergs are the ones playing amazing AoE and are looting so much they just don’t want to stop, or they just feel like the karma coming is awesome, and I’m pretty sure that’s not what Anet wants for us.

Indeed, Joker.

Loxias, we simply think that the AoE zerg is bad gameplay. Whether you get a gold medal or not. It’s just not that fun.

The problem is that the mobs are all bunched up together as they come in. Spread them out, give them multiple paths and make them scatter when under AoE damage. The risen are also seriously lacking their own specific mob mechanic to actually make them a challenge to kill. Something like the soul explosions for the Afflicted (during the Winds of Change) or even the environmental effects in the Real of Torment in GW1.

I’m still very green to GW2, but I can see a huge exploitation for Dynamic Events. To its credit, I think it a fresh and exciting way to perform a task. They generally have a decent pace, and how they bring together strangers in the same zone to aid each for a common goal is a wonderful sight.

The exploitation is that very little effort is required to earn a Bronze and rake in the Karma, experience, and coin. I’ve had instances where I’ve simply explored an area, killing a few monsters along way, then suddenly finding out I was part of an Event. I don’t feel I earned it, and since the same events pop up in each zone, I can see people racing around, throwing one arrow casting an AoE, and then running away. They don’t deserve anything for that.

Perhaps for Dynamic Events you need to accept involvement in the Event, and if you leave before the event is finished you forfeit your reward. They could have a perimeter setup like during instances, that tell you when you are about to leave the battlefield. Your medal rank would be determined by when you entered the Event, as well as your combat involvement.

Instead of just calculating the rating from completing an event just on damage alone, I would enjoy if they would also award based on healing. If I am on my engineer I have the hardest time getting a gold medal unless I pop down all my AoE turrets and use a flamethrower. I would love if I could get credit by healing people or by helping downed players Rally.

It simply does not encourage people to help each other if all it rewards is AoE spammers.

@Liavain: It is already the case that you get credit for aiding downed people in a dynamic event. Healing doesn’t really make much difference as there are so little heals in the game.

Also, I emphasise again the problem isn’t getting the medal it’s that Zerg AoE events are not fun and are broken gameplay.

Mada makes a good point that one of the issues is that they all run in bunched up down one path. Even if each wave comes down a different path, the waves happen one at a time so it makes no difference.

There are actually some good outpost wave defence events in Malchor’s Leap where multiple waves come in from different directions at the same time making it harder to AoE them down. I have seen many of these fail and have to retake the Outposts after which can also be hard. This is far far more fun.

Make healing/applying boons(support in general) to allies give you reward(loot + DE reward).

Turgon.8625:

The AoE mob tagging game that Orr has turned into is horrible.

Event difficulty and event scaling needs a serious look into if this beautiful looking zone is to have it’s gameplay salvaged.

I am so very behind the concept of level 80 zones driven by pure dynamic events and I am desperate for the tweaks to come in asap for the vision of this idea to come into existence.

Right now, I go there to explore but participating in anything is not fun at all.

I hope things improve before I make it farther in the game. I participated in my first – and last – zerg last week in the straits of devastation. I’ve been having a blast so far until that point. It killed the fun completely. Now i’m not looking forward to the level 80 areas at all.

I really appreciate everyone’s view here. It’s really important to let Anet know what it’s not fun for us, and what exactly is taking that fun away.

I agree with all points here so far. Please continue to post as we may have at some point some kind of answer for what to expect in the future patches!

rozcinana.7249:

I hope things improve before I make it farther in the game. I participated in my first – and last – zerg last week in the straits of devastation. I’ve been having a blast so far until that point. It killed the fun completely. Now i’m not looking forward to the level 80 areas at all.

Don’t be too discouraged. I love Orr, it is beautiful and often deadly, especially when solo. Not all events are an AoE zerg.

I am providing a lot of criticism to Orr in this forum not because I hate the place but because I love the zone and what the devs are trying to achieve there. I just think they have missed their target slightly – probably due to live servers acting differently to their internal pre-launch testing environments.

The loot side of it is sorta silly to complain about. You hit the anti-farming code in Orr so quickittenhat nobody is getting much loot.

But the big zerg killing mobs within .2 seconds of them appearing is definitely lame and broken and awful gameplay.

I see what you are saying Yukishiro.

But it’s not really silly. Think about it for a second, if you are single target you get 1 loot per mob. I see people leaving the chain with no less than 5 rares. I in the other hand didn’t get much (With MF gear too!).

I do know that the anti-farming code is off, but really it’s no an excuse for making enormous AoEs King for pretty much every event.

The ZERG is so bad on my server it causes stuff to be invisible and not show up.
And when it does or even if it does show for split second, the massive amount of AOE damage being done has everything dead.

So you just AOE in the spots you know the mobs come or pop and hope you tag something.

Really is horrible and so is the kitten DR system they have in place.
All is does is goes against the design and mechanics of the game and punishing you for playing the game the way they intended.

So Anet tell us now again how we should play your game please?

Every rare I have ever received in the claw of jormag was from a minion trash wave and never from the chest. Feels broken to me.

turn off diminshed returns for events. just ban the bots don’t put random punishments for players in a game where events are supposed to be played. diminshed returns is the most absurd idea in video game history. fix it. today.

Another day and yet another complete and utter lack of response by devs or any company representative. They are simply being disrespectful to their customer base by not admitting there is a DR in general PVE and that it was their intent to have it there.

So much for their transparency.

I agree with this thread. Tons of great ideas here.

There needs to be some change (I don’t know what) to get people out of those three locations in Orr and spread evenly throughout all the zones.