"Rescuing a village that will stay rescued"

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Posted by: Zii The Mad.2563

Zii The Mad.2563

“As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you are doing. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.

“You’re meeting new people whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you. The most important thing in any game should be the player. We have built a game for them.”

“We do not want to build the same MMO everyone else is building, and in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world. It’s your story. You affect things around you in a very permanent way.

“Cause and effect: A single decision made by a player cascades out in a chain of events.”

These quotes are from the Manifesto trailer. The stuff in bold makes puzzled creases in my forehead appear…
It was pretty much just hot air, wasn’t it? Pretty much none of the above stuff is actually like that in-game.

(edited by Zii The Mad.2563)

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Posted by: Nappychappy.7046

Nappychappy.7046

Most of it is true, sort of…

If you compare it to WoW, it’s completely different, I don’t know if you feel like a hero, but it definitely has a “changing” effect to the person/village saved. Did you save Tyria? No, you just delayed the inevitable. vs You turn a quest in and nothing changes, but you some how helped someone.

Story effects you in permanently – You join the vigil ect..

Cause and effect, centars attack because they are jerks, you either save the village or you don’t. They take over the village, or they don’t – add chain events.

The thing about the home instance wasn’t a lie, nor was it even implemented.

You are using 21 of 100 infractions ermm, PMs.

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Posted by: Sabbathius.1465

Sabbathius.1465

It’s the same as every other MMO, just with a twist.

In your personal story you make unique choices that affect the game in various ways (who lives and who dies), which is fairly unique. Can’t think of another MMO that does that. AoC had similar instancing, but the plot was always the same regardless of class (but in the beginning based on archetype – warrior, mage, priest). So this part was kinda true.

The game world itself varies a bit in who controls what – your faction or the enemy. This is also fairly unique. But also utterly pointless, because if everyone leaves the area, an hour later the enemy will take over, and then you take it back, and then they take it back, rinse, repeat. I look at it as a “long respawn” or equivalent of WoW’s phasing – where for you village looks as it is in a huge battle, because you have a quest in it, while for everyone else it looks at peace because they already did it. WoW’s approach is frankly better – more control with phasing allows for MUCH better storytelling and control of the events.

Also the quest variety is rather lacking, as is interaction with the world objects. Terrain in this game is good, but very little effort was made to make truly memorable terrain (think Thousand Needles, Zangarmarsh, Vash’ir, etc.) All of this could have improved the PvE experience significantly.

I mean, it’s not bad per se. For what the game cost, and no sub fee, it’s more than worth the money for me. But beyond that the game as a whole is still very lackluster – little variety, lots of repetitive PvE with very weak lore outside of personal story chain and near-dead PvP (conquest mode only sPvP and broken WvW).

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Posted by: StevieMJH.9105

StevieMJH.9105

Yes, this is very sad. In the course of 3 minutes standing around near a trade broker in the Charr starting area, I heard the exact same NPC dialogue at least 10 times. Something about how the trader left a message for some guy and how this other guy is so fed up with someone kittening about the burnt meat that the next thing on the fire will be him.

Blah blah blah. It’s annoying as kitten and it destroys the environment. Also you’re right. You can kill a boss and in ten seconds he will be back. It’s pointless.

All-in-all this is very similar to the Mass Effect 3 lies that were spread by BioWare before release.

They specifically said that the ending wouldn’t comprise of “three endings, A, B, and C” but what did the endings comprise of? Yep.

I wish companies wouldn’t feel like they have to overstate the groundbreaking effect of their game if they have no intention of actually doing the work required to achieve that.

(edited by StevieMJH.9105)

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Posted by: The Dude.6942

The Dude.6942

Well its kinda paranoid if you go and call them “liars” if things aren’t exactly as you understood. Villages stay rescued, but not forever obviously. Otherwise you can have each dynamic event happen exactly once, and that causes so many problems that its virtually impossible.

I disagree with Sabbathius. WoW’s phasing system is horrible. It creates artificial pockets of reality where people disappear if they pass the border, into the pre-story dimension. If you’re grouped with someone who’s done a phase, you just disappear for him there. That takes away immensely from the multiplayer part in MMO.

There’s metaevents and chains of events that go back and forth. Like a war. Sometimes the centaurs are winning, sometime’s they’re losing. It takes people to turn the tide.

The time these events occur is another issue. On one hand you can’t have events happening constantly. On the other hand, you can’t have people sitting around doing nothing, because nothing is happening.

Also in GW2 I found it also nice that NPCs talk about what is happening. They continue doing stuff after events, and often start another event or “open shop”.

I suspect the events happen often if there’s many people in certain areas, and less often if there aren’t. Could be wrong there though. But that would be a logical way to manage it.

TLDR: Villages stay rescued, just not forever. There’s nothing to do if you have an event happen exactly once and then the whole zone is forever save and there’s nothing to do for the rest of the people.

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Posted by: Nubirak.9371

Nubirak.9371

I agree that the first statement, about bosses respawning, didn’t deliver. Just warp to any map that spawns a dragon and you will see people asking “how long until X respawns?” and it in fact respawns at rather predictable intervals.

About villages staying rescued it’s more that there is little consequence to them being rescued or not than a recurring event resetting things. Because of how you can teleport around, the map turns out to be really small. A town being captured only means you will have to teleport to another one in order to buy supplies/sell stuff and there is no difference between villages about that.

The biggest annoyance a point being contested can offer is not being able to enter a dungeon or buy some gear. And in both cases you don’t complete the event so you can do those later, you complete the event because you want your reward immediately.

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Posted by: imbalancedhero.3968

imbalancedhero.3968

I agree with the OP on the first point because of the boss camping going on in game (I do it too so yeah XD)

The second point I think they are referring to karma merchants (heart quests) who wont sell to you until you help them out. Some of the items they sell ARE important (cough cough cooking) and someone who hasnt done this quest cant get or see any of the vendor items. However since you can easily look up which heart merchant sells the item you need (on wiki or gw2db) it kind of takes away from that feel a little bit.

For the third point I think they are referring to areas such as waypoints that are contested or areas that are inaccessible unless the players do an event to unlock them.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Let’s be clear, if the game offered the option of "rescuing a village that will stay rescued, then you would NEVER rescue that village. Someone else would have rescued it before you, and you would only be able to come upon it after the fact when it was safe and boring.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Jamais vu.5284

Jamais vu.5284

The first I agree. It’s a load of horse dung.
However, if you thought the second and third bolded parts imply you’re actions will forever have consequences, that’s just silly. They do stay permanent. Just until you win an event to take it back. Theoretically, if you were completely alone on a server and centaurs took Nebo Terrace, and you didn’t intervene, it would probably stay that way forever. So yes, it’s true.

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Posted by: Kalocin.5982

Kalocin.5982

To some degree there is some permanence as it isn’t like WoW where after you kill 10 centaurs they’ll still just be there and nothing was solved…However the main issue is that the village is attacked every 5 minutes with the exact same npcs saying the exact same dialogue. This can be said about the bosses which I feel have been hit the worst with this…ESPECIALLY in Orr.

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Posted by: DieScream.6972

DieScream.6972

To be fair, that was pre release marketing bull.

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Posted by: Sollith.3502

Sollith.3502

They could have added a few different events in between each one resetting though, make it feel like a place stays saved for a while, or at the very minimum have certain take a bit longer before some events happen again.

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Posted by: Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981

Frosty and Frosty Law Firm.4981

Look at WoW-

You’re something elevated just above a meat-shield, doing the work for others so they can take the credit. Nobody knows you, nobody cares about you, your character has no personality or story unless you’re an RPer, and even then NPCs will obviously be unaware of this. Everything you do has literally no impact.

GW2-

You stop something tragic and horrible from happening, which will actually happen if you do nothing. Yes, the boss respawns ten minutes later, but that’s because the game isn’t single-player, which is why most quests on Orr are merely stemming an unstoppable tide or trying to keep the metaphorical floodgates closed. Other players shouldn’t be denied the unique experience of having their decisions matter just because you got to the boss first.

Grind Wars 2: Heart of Tears

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Posted by: DreamyAbaddon.3265

DreamyAbaddon.3265

Hey everyone! I just wanted to make a quick response because I feel you guys don’t seem to understand what GW2 Manifesto Video was all about.

In that video, Colin Johanson, the lead game designer was talking about “Dynamic Events” and the “Combat” while Ree Soesbee was talking about “Personal Storyline”.

These are Ree Soesbee’s words the OP quoted in regarding to Personal Stories:

“As a structure, the MMO has lost the ability to make the player feel like a hero. Everybody around you is doing the same thing you are doing. The boss you just killed respawns ten minutes later. It doesn’t care that I’m there.
You’re meeting new people whom you will then see again. You’re rescuing a village that will stay rescued, who then remember you. We do not want to build the same MMO everyone else is building, and in Guild Wars 2, it’s your world. It’s your story. You affect things around you in a very permanent way.”

Now this is what Colin Johanson has to say regarding Dynamic Events:
“Cause and effect: A single decision made by a player cascades out in a chain of events.”

Now, If you watch the ArenaNet videos on youtube, You’ll notice Colin Johanson will always talk mostly on the subject regarding Dynamic Events while Ree Soesbee will always try to bring up Personal Stories.

The GW2 Manifesto Video including other videos that the developers talk in, will most likely talk about their subject but will also talk about the game as a whole.

See it for yourself:

Here is GW2 Manefsto Video link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKtGxVj3msM

Here is Ree Soesbee’s Video Regarding Personal Story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv7j73VWVWs

Here is Colin Johanson’s Video Regarding Dynamic Events:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oit0gBEWHo

I personally feel like the Personal Stories do make you feel like a hero with choices you make. They are permanant as well. And Dynamic Events do Chain onto each other. I say they delivered. Though, there is always room for improvement

=) I hope this info helps.

(edited by DreamyAbaddon.3265)

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Posted by: Ighten Hill.5038

Ighten Hill.5038

I think they were mainly talking about the PS side of things.. Im not sure how else anything would work.. If you changed things permanently in the general world it would be pretty dull for every other player

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Posted by: ArcTheFallen.7682

ArcTheFallen.7682

Well, I for one blame the Mad King for destroying my lion in Lion’s Arch. I’ll never get that back ;(

[VZ] Sky Avalon – Guardian (Main)
Master of all Professions
sPvP Rank Dragon – 8 Champ Titles – Ruby Division

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

While I don’t think a village should “stay” rescued, there should always be some sort of struggle so that the world feels dynamic and interesting. I do agree that the refresh rate of dynamic events is far too quick. It is as if they expected the over populated rate of players completing the dynamic events would stay consistent, but as population changes due to level spread and players leaving, then you have a less dense population in that area to DO those quickly refreshing events, making them tedious for the few that are working on the DE.

Additionally I really feel there should be greater consequences. Good and bad. If players do not save the village and should domino effect and eventually the world falls to ruin. Go all in ANet and give us definitive consequences.

If we save the village then the attacking forces are repelled and the town is safe. Give us new dynamic events or awards. Maybe the village gives a drastic increasing in gathering nodes because it is peaceful and flourishing in prosperity.

Some sort of award more than a karma merchant and the knowledge that the DE will refresh soon.

Even better yet, if we fail over and over have the village fall apart and the Mobs in the area become more manageable for solo players (because obviously no one has been putting effort into saving the village). Call it atrophy for not having to fight heroes for so long.

On the counter side, if people are constantly saving the village ramp up the difficulty and the Mobs start sending their own champions out until they can defeat the heroes. The higher the difficulty the higher the rewards for staying around and defending the towns. This becomes a sort of WvW type objective in PvE. Stay and defend, take key locations in the world and reward the players in the area for saving the town.

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Posted by: Solar Brink.1490

Solar Brink.1490

I see your point with the respawning but mostly I think its a bug that they are having trouble fixing because Ive seen enemies respawn as soon as their corpses vanish which isnt cool plus that invulnerable thing needs fixing badly
Dynamic events repeat too often too much money being created people just farm repeating events rather then roaming across the map
if they didnt repeat as often and lasted longer people would /map where events were happening and people would map to get them
OWAIT no they wouldnt since mapping to the nearest waypoint costs about as much as a dynamic event gives

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Posted by: Oreoz.2573

Oreoz.2573

That vid came out about 2 or 3 years prior to release.

Add to that the fact that certain technical realities had to be faced and that nothing in that video was actually PROMISED or GUARANTEED to be true in the strongest sense of what they were talking about and we find ourselves a fairly moot thread.

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Posted by: CMF.5461

CMF.5461

(TLDR) Maybe add some world vs world type game play into PvE, where the players defend towns and upgrade them against PvE enemies, much like WvW you defend them against other players.(TLDR)

I disagree that this is a moot thread. Everything to do what I suggested is in place and ready to go. That is what is so frustrating for I think many in considering the state of the game…. What they want is right there it is tangible.

Villages already burn, monsters overtake towns, difficulty scales (more mobs at least) to the number of people at the DE. Step it up a notch and let us fail though, and reward us when winning other than “success” or “fail” with some karma and maybe a new vendor or two.

There was a post from the devs a while back that stated they did not want DEs to be ultimately fail-able because of the notion of other players causing failure being distracting to those trying to win the objectives.

What I simply stated is allow people to fail and feel consequences while at the same time failure provides MORE objects to do. Through failing you generate more content. Through winning you provide more challenges. There is no technical wall in this, simply adding more dynamic events on top of the ones that exist.

Scenario: Village is under attack by centaurs (classic example by the devs). You fend off the centaurs and they run away. Village thanks the heroes and the town is prosperous. Rewards ensue (more farming nodes, new dynamic events of good nature, town oriented stuff, maybe even higher percentage of rare drops or more coin if fighting near the town, like a proximity buff to a saved town).

Well the centaurs are angry and hurt. They go back and muster more forces. This time they come back with an ace in the hole, a champion of their kind (boss fight!). This time the centaurs return and they return with a vengeance. The heroes can’t withstand the power of this awesome creature and the village is lost. Sadness ensues and the town is over run with centaurs. All of our bonuses of the saved town are gone and we have to fight for it back.

With the return fight there should be absolutely no champions, but maybe some veterans. This would give wandering players a chance to save the town instead of needing a raid force. Staying to defend should require a strong force to promote guild ownership of a town, much like a WvW objective where you can claim a keep for your guild and provide upgrades to that keep. The town could even have the guild tabard showing if you put time and effort into building up the town to withstand another attack.

If players stay to defend the town it can continuously become harder and more champions or different champions come to storm the town. Huge karma rewards for protecting the town should be in place if anything, again intensive to stay and defend.

This way there is not punishment for losing the town, it generates more DEs to guide players to save the town, if you do save the town you can now defend the town and provide prosperity to the local area and players around the town.

(edited by CMF.5461)

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Posted by: Dedara.7064

Dedara.7064

@ CMF absolutely !
Another reward for keeping a town safe could be cheaper prices at vendors

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Posted by: Wasabi Kitty.8247

Wasabi Kitty.8247

The only events that seem like they have an impact are the ones to unlock dungeons and to uncontest temples in Orr.

Anet make Rev great again.

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Posted by: tigirius.9014

tigirius.9014

Somewhere along the way they decided to throw out the manifesto. It’s very apparent with this new dungeon only patch they’ve released.

Balance Team: Please Fix Mine Toolbelt Positioning!

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Posted by: Eirik.9145

Eirik.9145

Frankly, they should be named “cyclical events” because that’s all they. Wait a few minutes and the same thing will happen all over again whether you did anything or not.

What a character does in the game has no effect on it at all, just like other games. People have mentioned personal story quests as having a cause and effect. Not really. I’ve gone through the entire series of quests for the Vigil, Order of Whispers, and Durmand Priory. Do any of your choices make a difference in the world? No. Everything in the quests is instanced so the world itself is totally uneffected.

Your choices don’t really matter. Some “other group” is sent to do the things you don’t pick in the story and the outcomes are the same whether you are there or not. Eventually you don’t really have any choices and are just basically along for the ride. Does the final outcome differ based on choices you make? Absolutely not. It’s a series of quests to lead you to a dungeon. Is that different than any other game? I don’t think so.

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Posted by: Mobott.5908

Mobott.5908

While I agree that Anet went back on their word, I think they had good reason to. They might have been worried that if the game was too innovative in the DE system, it might not have sold well (we don’t know if that would’ve been true or not, but oh well). This explains why Anet still left in some traditional MMO concepts (Hearts are basically the same as quests in other games).

GW2 is not perfect, but it will hopefully set an example that future MMOs can expand on.

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Posted by: Nexi.1297

Nexi.1297

Look at WoW-

You’re something elevated just above a meat-shield, doing the work for others so they can take the credit. Nobody knows you, nobody cares about you, your character has no personality or story unless you’re an RPer
[…]
GW2-

You stop something tragic and horrible from happening, which will actually happen if you do nothing. Yes, the boss respawns ten minutes later, but that’s because the game isn’t single-player, which is why most quests on Orr are merely stemming an unstoppable tide or trying to keep the metaphorical floodgates closed.

Sorry, but this sounds like a joke.
During the personal story NPCs remember you for a single questline. Proceed to the next chapter and they will forget about you. Meet them again 20 Levels later and they won’t recognize you; even if you saved their lives. GW2 allows us make decisions, but the decisions have no more consequences than in any other Themepark MMO.; most of the time even less.

In WoW you can at least see the consequences of your actions as long as phasing is used.
Dynamic events are innovativ, no arguing. But for me they kill immersion because everything you do is trivial. Add dynamic events to WoW, or add meaningfull questlines and phasing to GW2, and the innovation of dynamic events will turn to a valueable tool of story-telling.