Guild Wars 2

Firstly, I really enjoyed the leveling experience in this game. The Story really surprised me, was very engaging and I liked the tone.

DE’s in general though felt overly underwhelming. Current implementation of DE’s act predominantly like typical MMO quests. They are a rather huge let down (if you think about what they COULD have been).

My question is, are DE’s planned to become more engaging or complex?

To go into more detail, here are my thoughts on what I imagined the majority of end game DE’s to look like. In short, I imagined them to be yclical. Meaning, once a player becomes involved with a quest chain, it will continue throughout the players session and continue when they leave. Essentially, it would be a push and pull, tug of rope system.

<img src="https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/3567/DEexample.jpg" alt="" />

In the above image, each #) designates a new dynamic event that is occurring. The event begins in the keep (think Fort Trinity) and always falls back to that location to start again. However, there is ALWAYS something in regards to this quest going on. (I apologize for spelling mistakes…didn’t catch it, and really don’t want to reupload)
So in the above example you first start by defending the starting keep. Whether you succeed or fail, it will bring you into a different event. This will continue constantly throughout the entirety of the event. Yes, this already happens in the game! Which means its possible to implement without changing any of the inner workings of the program.

Lets imagine we succeed and push the enemies out of our keep. Well, the general doesn’t like that we were attacked and decides to go on the offensive. “Lets go!” So they storm out to the enemies nearest outpost.

You then seek to take this over. Again, whether you succeed or fail, the quest continues…its cyclical, and will always wrap back around to the beginning of the original quest (inside the starting keep, getting attacked).

So take a look at the pic again. The difference here is that it is always happening. Another interesting addition to the DE system is incentives and pride.

What is the incentive to win if you can continue to get karma/gold/exp from losing an retrying? Simple, just make losing a DE cause a longer DE event. For example, ‘Rebuild the keep’ after failing an attack could take 30 minutes. “Sigh” says the player, “I do NOT want to lose this again.”

Lets go to the other spectrum. Eventually you finally make it to the end of the DE. The new quest is something a little different. A “Hold out as long as you can” Quest. Waves will spawn on a timer and they attack your keep door. Once they break in, you ‘retreat to POI’ and start over.

A second DE will occur, and would require players to farm supply to repair the door in between waves. Now, while these waves are deflected, the world gains bonuses for holding this keep. +MF, +EXP, etc. The longer you hold it, the more bonuses you get. Eventually, it would be far too hard to hold and you’ll inevitably lose the keep.
With an idea like this, players would be much more committed to participating. In addition, you can always be sure something is going on. To make things even more fun, you can combine ideas like the above with other DEs in any specific zone.
For instance. Perhaps a DE will spawn ONLY during Wave 3 of holding that keep where you push forward to taking down a Dragon, and you would need the bonuses to achieve victory.

I would really like to see something a bit more engaging….less “finish it and wait around for the next one,” and more “Lets push all the way to the end!”

Don’t quote me on this, but I have a feeling it is already in place from some of the notes I have read. They might just be in suspended animation atm becuase they are having problems with the DE’s becuase of the population on the servers. The DE’s are being triggered far more often then they wanted then to. Once things start cooling down, I think we will start to see more things like this. It’s not like they don’t patch the game every night, when I am playing Grrr. But I have to say even though my game ends every night for 15 minutes to download the new patch it is WAY better then alot of other MMO’s I have played where patching only happens Tuesday Morning, and even if there is a known issue, it will be looked at next week.

Vivisector.5680:

Don’t quote me on this, but I have a feeling it is already in place from some of the notes I have read. They might just be in suspended animation atm becuase they are having problems with the DE’s becuase of the population on the servers. The DE’s are being triggered far more often then they wanted then to. Once things start cooling down, I think we will start to see more things like this. It’s not like they don’t patch the game every night, when I am playing Grrr. But I have to say even though my game ends every night for 15 minutes to download the new patch it is WAY better then alot of other MMO’s I have played where patching only happens Tuesday Morning, and even if there is a known issue, it will be looked at next week.

(lawl, i quoted you)

I don’t think population has anything to do with it unfortunately. The DEs right now, as many others also seem to have noticed, are simply node based, recurring quests. They need a strong overhaul, and it scares me that there are NO DEs similar to the one I described above.

This makes me think it either can’t be done, or the a.net isn’t prioritizing it. IMO, they need to get something like this out ASAP to keep people engaged with the game. I just hit 80, and am currently having a good time farming mats and karma. But the end level zones are still new to me and I’m still exploring.

My drive to get a legendary and full exotics is strong…but I can’t imagine this will last long. Its no fun seeing a DE pop up while running around a zone and being forced to wait for others to show up before you can kill it.

I’ve soloed many a DE prior to reinforcements showing up, and its just a long winded process of kiting. (I usually die RIGHT when the group shows up..yeah).

Having an elaborate cyclical chain quest is vital to help funnel players into the same DEs, and by overlapping these DEs, you help spread out the zerg and force a bit of choice on players that impacts success or failure.

I don’t know if a.net just doesnt get it, or doesn’t care, but the current implementation of DEs are quite underwhelming…especially when they require you to farm them for well over 500k karma and ~150 or so more levels.

The DE’s in some zones are based on Failure rather than success — for instance in one zone the centaurs are supposed to be able to overrun the entire zone — however we keep succeeding at driving them off to the point of extinction causing the same two events to cycle as they try to ‘take back’ their land and fail.

The issue really is that there are too many of us and we keep winning. It’s sad really because there are probably some amazing stories of failure and surving to push back against the odds that we’re just missing in it’s entirety.

Some aren’t like this – ie the shadow behemouth — but many many of the meta event chains seem to be based on players not really being there to stop (or failing at) events… I love seeing/playing and interacting with other players, but I sure do wish that they’d go away sometimes so that I could heroically save the day and drive those rotten beasts back across the entire zone — leading my people to victory in the affected regions (Gendarran Fields and Queensdale are definitely affected by this, and I believe that many other places are as well).

thellena mentioned a lot of what i was going to say (we aren’t seeing the ultimate failure states).

the other thing is that a lot of de’s have plot and the best voice acting in the game…most people just don’t look for it. people see orange and run to it until they see gold reward then they immediately run from it. i find a lot more satisfaction when i’m not, “on my way to somewhere.”

if you didn’t see tales of tyria last weekend, bridger did a really great job of showing a few different related de’s that were triggered off each other. i would hope for more planetside-type base control scenarios but i’m sure those will come. they’re planning on regularly changing de’s. the problems i see arising from that is when that zone isn’t that popular and the pop goes somewhere else. i guess it depends on how you scale it.

there was also a (youtube) video from wayfarer hills that follows a couple npc’s through intersecting de’s. that de meant a lot more to me when it wasn’t just, “bears are spawning…kill some bears,” but instead the consequences of these 3 kids trying to get the stuff together to summon bear spirit so they could impress dad.

it’s one of the reasons i prefer to play solo in this game.

frOst.2198:

They need a strong overhaul, and it scares me that there are NO DEs similar to the one I described above.

relax. DE’s dont need any kind of overhaul. they need to scale better so theyre a lot harder for larger groups. this way, they can fail and we can see the other branches of the events.

The most complex Dynamic Event I’ve seen in this game so far was back during the beta.

In Kessex Hills, sometimes centaurs attack a military barracks. Enemies come in generic waves with no real variety. Once you win, a soldier eventually informs the captain of spare supplies they can give to a nearby mining town, including an arrow cart. If you complete the dolyak escort mission, the soldiers will drop off the arrow cart in town, and players can fire it just like in WvW. Neat.

Unfortunately, when the centaurs attack the mine in their generic waves, the first casualty is always that arrow cart, ganked by a stampede. Now here’s where things gets interesting: the centaur attacks on the barracks and the centaur attacks on the mining town are not related to each other. If you happen to escort the dolyak to town while the centaurs are assaulting the mine, not only will the soldiers acknowledge the attack, they’ll set up the arrow cart behind a chokepoint instead of leaving it out in the open.

This is the sort of interaction I wanted to find in this game. As it stands, Dynamic Events currently have as much gameplay depth as Quests in other MMOs. It hurts to count the number of events which boil down to “Enemy grouping A spawns from location X. When killed, group A spawns from location Y. Alternate spawnpoints until progress bar is filled.” The point of Events was to create a living, breathing world, but the events themselves are so badly structured that they often make the world feel less alive, not more. It’s a shame.

nerva.7940:

frOst.2198:

They need a strong overhaul, and it scares me that there are NO DEs similar to the one I described above.

relax. DE’s dont need any kind of overhaul. they need to scale better so theyre a lot harder for larger groups. this way, they can fail and we can see the other branches of the events.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe this. However, new DEs can be added and slowly replace the current set…I’m all for that.

But as it stands, the current crop of DEs are very plain. They aren’t really dynamic and are more like simple, “events.”

In their next zone release, itd be great if they could create a truly dynamic event system….where each failure or success resulted in a new part of the storyline and where all the events were dynamically linked with each other.

I assumed, like many others, that Zaitan would have been at the end of the lvl 80 Orr zone. Where players would push forward from the edge of the map, completing DEs, and eventually culminating in a huge zone wide boss fight with the dragon…lol…and you know how that turned out.

Instead we get the same old same old. Lazy DEs scattered around the map that are just on and off switches with no true relation to the zone at all. Locking us out of waypoints turns us OFF from that area, it doesn’t bring us over to it.

I would love to hear from a.net about future plans for DEs. About their limitations and expectations as to what they themselves expect to create. We’ve already heard exaggerations, and got our hopes crushed by a severely average quest system, so now lets get some facts as to how the core system (which …seems… flexible) is going to be ramped up.

I would like to see ‘unwinnable’ events that will reset areas similar to how defense works in WvW, you get credit every couple of minutes you hold off the monsters, but eventually they overwhelm the area and the chain resets.

For example, the flame legion could be doing a ritual that can be slowed down by killing shamans, but the ritual eventually completes and the occupying forces are forced to retreat. You get a reward for every 3-4 minutes that you last.

You could be defending a device that doesn’t heal, and mobs will manage to chip off its hp eventually.

As it is now, every zone is always ‘completed’, i’ve never even seen the assault on arah chain because the defense event never fails.

Ok so think of this. Most DE’s are designed with a certain amount of players in mind to be able to succeed at it. Lets say for your example above it needs about 7 or 8 players to be able to effectively succeed at repelling the attack on your gates. But what if there aren’t those 7 or 8 players in the zone willing to participate and it’s only a couple heroic defenders, or maybe even just you, that’s doing the event? Are you supposed to automatically fail because you’re the only one doing the event? Yeah getting those 8 players right now is easy, in fact, your probably seeing more than double of what’s needed for most events. But what about in a year or 2? When most characters are grouped at the top, and there’s very few players running around in low and mid level areas? They still have to balance the game for this in mind down the road as well. I just remember the ghost towns areas became in WoW that below or near the cap level. Trying to run a dungeonkittennear impossible, and in effect, that’s what these are, spur of the moment, open ended, free to join dungeons out in the world.

Ok so think of this. Most DE’s are designed with a certain amount of players in mind to be able to succeed at it. Lets say for your example above it needs about 7 or 8 players to be able to effectively succeed at repelling the attack on your gates. But what if there aren’t those 7 or 8 players in the zone willing to participate and it’s only a couple heroic defenders, or maybe even just you, that’s doing the event? Are you supposed to automatically fail because you’re the only one doing the event? Yeah getting those 8 players right now is easy, in fact, your probably seeing more than double of what’s needed for most events. But what about in a year or 2? When most characters are grouped at the top, and there’s very few players running around in low and mid level areas? They still have to balance the game for this in mind down the road as well. I remember the ghost towns areas became in WoW that were below or near the cap level. Trying to run a dungeon waskittennear impossible, and in effect, that’s what these are, spur of the moment, open ended, free to join dungeons out in the world.

Feywray.4351:

Ok so think of this. Most DE’s are designed with a certain amount of players in mind to be able to succeed at it. Lets say for your example above it needs about 7 or 8 players to be able to effectively succeed at repelling the attack on your gates. But what if there aren’t those 7 or 8 players in the zone willing to participate and it’s only a couple heroic defenders, or maybe even just you, that’s doing the event? Are you supposed to automatically fail because you’re the only one doing the event? Yeah getting those 8 players right now is easy, in fact, your probably seeing more than double of what’s needed for most events. But what about in a year or 2? When most characters are grouped at the top, and there’s very few players running around in low and mid level areas? They still have to balance the game for this in mind down the road as well. I just remember the ghost towns areas became in WoW that below or near the cap level. Trying to run a dungeonkittennear impossible, and in effect, that’s what these are, spur of the moment, open ended, free to join dungeons out in the world.

Are you talking about the last phase? Where players hold out on for multiple waves?

If thats the case, then yes, they would fail. The idea behind that example is that holding that position is SUPPOSED to inevitably fail. There is no way of stopping it. That kind of process allows for the DE to reset, allowing players to test themselves(see how far they can get or how long they can hold it), reap the appropriate rewards, then start over.

In short, its an incentive. If you reread the first post, you’ll notice that I threw in the idea of granting bonuses, like exp/karma banners or specialized vendors.

This is not just to jazz up the event, but to provide a strong incentive to get players to participate. If you ever played DAOC, one of the main incentives for capturing relics was so that your realm could gain access to Darkness Falls, the end game dungeon. It was an interesting idea because it was a double-edged sword. While you gained access, that means players left the relics less defended because they sought to gain the benefits of the newly opened dungeon.

Your point, however, isn’t without merit. All the waves should be scaled based on player participation….however, if holding that area doesn’t draw people in, then theres something wrong. As more waves come (and the difficulty ramps up) more and more people should arrive to help defend and to gain access to the ‘special vendors’ or whatnot that come based on wave.

Again, this is all in theory, and not so much meant for direct integration into the game..but more so as an example of what can be done, or a direction they should think to go to.

Voltar.8574:

the other thing is that a lot of de’s have plot and the best voice acting in the game…most people just don’t look for it. people see orange and run to it until they see gold reward then they immediately run from it. i find a lot more satisfaction when i’m not, “on my way to somewhere.”

This is the whole basis of the idea I presented.

The reason people run to and away from events is because players are drawn to efficiency and the path of least resistance. Its unfortunate, but true. The design of these DEs seem to completely ignore that mentality, and that in turn is a problem with game design.

You need to embrace that player mentality and build around it.

As such, chaining DEs is the best method. By keeping players on one continuous DE that spans across the zone, you not only ensure they see all the content, but you keep them busy, entertained, and grant them the appropriate rewards for their time.

Keep in mind, when I say ‘chain DEs’ I don’t mean linear.

Some steps should require players to spread throughout the zone to accomplish multiple events at once, which feed into the next. Similar to the current, and quite simple, mechanic where players ‘choose’ a path by making a selection in single player, different paths should open based on which objectives fail/succeed.

For instance, the zone DE reaches a point, The commander says, “We need to defend the south, and north bunkers…” And 2 new DEs open up at both areas.

Now there are 4 different paths that can occur

1) You save both bunkers
2) You lose both bunkers
3/4) You save the south or north bunker only

For each path, you’d move into a ‘different’ part of the DE. This is the embodiment of the dynamic event system that they touted but failed to deliver on.

frOst.2198:

For instance, the zone DE reaches a point, The commander says, “We need to defend the south, and north bunkers…” And 2 new DEs open up at both areas.

Actually, near the Ascalonian Catacombs two separate escort missions split off from the same Charr camp. One headed north, the other south.

Not exactly addressing your post, but there are some examples of good design sprinkled in the game already; they really need to capitalize on it.

frOst.2198:

nerva.7940:

frOst.2198:

They need a strong overhaul, and it scares me that there are NO DEs similar to the one I described above.

relax. DE’s dont need any kind of overhaul. they need to scale better so theyre a lot harder for larger groups. this way, they can fail and we can see the other branches of the events.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe this. However, new DEs can be added and slowly replace the current set…I’m all for that.

But as it stands, the current crop of DEs are very plain. They aren’t really dynamic and are more like simple, “events.”

In their next zone release, itd be great if they could create a truly dynamic event system….where each failure or success resulted in a new part of the storyline and where all the events were dynamically linked with each other.

I assumed, like many others, that Zaitan would have been at the end of the lvl 80 Orr zone. Where players would push forward from the edge of the map, completing DEs, and eventually culminating in a huge zone wide boss fight with the dragon…lol…and you know how that turned out.

Instead we get the same old same old. Lazy DEs scattered around the map that are just on and off switches with no true relation to the zone at all. Locking us out of waypoints turns us OFF from that area, it doesn’t bring us over to it.

I would love to hear from a.net about future plans for DEs. About their limitations and expectations as to what they themselves expect to create. We’ve already heard exaggerations, and got our hopes crushed by a severely average quest system, so now lets get some facts as to how the core system (which …seems… flexible) is going to be ramped up.

Very well worded. And more importantly, you hit the nail on the head.

@frOst.2198

I agree with you post all except for replacing DE’s which would seem counter productive imo. Better to focus on new content for expansions, learning and build upon current DE’s would be much more cost effective. Would people really be happy going through old content for new DE’s?

My issue is that a lot of the ‘big’ events ultimately become a group of people beating on one bad guy. The bad only has generic attacks skills which do little but to look impressive.

SoPP.7034:

@frOst.2198

I agree with you post all except for replacing DE’s which would seem counter productive imo. Better to focus on new content for expansions, learning and build upon current DE’s would be much more cost effective. Would people really be happy going through old content for new DE’s?

My issue is that a lot of the ‘big’ events ultimately become a group of people beating on one bad guy. The bad only has generic attacks skills which do little but to look impressive.

Replacing DEs seems appropriate based on their mantra, “play anywhere, do anything.”

Again, this is why they need to get creative. There needs to be reasons or incentives for you to actually want to head back to a lower level zone. Right now, there are zero reasons other than to experience some repetitively dull content, or to hear some voice acting.

Thus the creativity: Legendary’s and the mystic forge are the perfect vehicle for spicing up the economy and bringing life to lower area zones. (I personally feel it should be ‘random’ so that people don’t just sit and farm the same lower level DE again..and again for their item. )

By randomizing the chance to get rare materials through interesting, truly dynamic events that happen throughout the world of tyria, no matter WHERE the player is, they might have a chance of seeing something truly unique, and being rewarded with something rare.

Finding the balance between rare, and impossible to find (time lost proto drake), would be something they need to work on. I think it would be nice to be able to participate in one, once every 10 hours played or so.

Its a slow day at work, so let me try and map out how I imagine one of these events to work:

A bunch of players arrive in Orr, where the battlefield has already been bathed in conflict.

At the front of the zone, there is 3 DEs in various locations. Their main goal is: “Collect scraps to be used in the upcoming Siege of Zhaitan’s Fortress”

The Siege of Zhaitan’s Fortress is a DE much further ahead in the zone. And the higher level players are out there doing something else to contribute to the effort (killing waves of minions?)

Anyway, Each of the 3 DEs collect something different, and succeeding at any given one would provide benefits to the onslaught, such as Trebuchets(collect wood and metal) (for destroying walls), Arrow Carts(broken arrows), or NPC waves(scrap metal/swords).

The 3 DEs and the minion killing wave DE would all be connected via a timer. Obviously, having as much help as possible when sieging would be beneficial.

Lets say that only 2 of the 3 early DEs succeed (Trebs and NPC waves): So the players start the siege, and NPCs filter in with them as they charge the gates. They see the Trebs pop up and some players hop into them and start blasting the Wall.

But hang on a sec…As one of the players is running, he hears an NPC from the wave say in a scared but annoyed voice, ‘I shouldn’t even be here! Why didn’t my superiors listen!’

The majority of the players ignore it, or dont hear it. However, some curious player decides to investigate. So he talks to the NPC. A dialog opens. Now, to make things more fun, this NPC is not actually running towards the fight, but towards the side, where he will eventually ‘run’ or ‘vanish’ and not be clickable. This NPC also doesn’t spawn everytime.

So during the dialog, the NPC explains, " I told my superious I had a better way of beating Zhaitain, but they didn’t listen! They told me black magic is evil! HAH"

Player responds: “Tell me more about this plan” …Eventually you agree to help him, and you follow him to the wooded area. No DE marker opens, so there is no signal to other players. The NPC works quickly, jams a staff into the ground, says some words and opens a portal (like mesmer). He yells, “quickly, inside!” In 30 seconds, the portal closes up.

In this area, you have to fight a mini-boss(champion), because of course, the NPC botched his portal up. If you defeat it, you can then loot a rare ingredient, then perform a step that will spawn a few siege rams on the field.

Then you portal back, and the fight continues…

Note, that this example is merely that. Its meant to demonstrate how events should be connected to each other, and where outcomes of one should effect the outcomes of another. In addition, it shows how randomness and awareness can lead to some interesting and fun opportunities that helps break the monotony. It gives players a choices as to where they want to contribute, and what strategically may be the best option. The zerg might decide to stay at the main quest and let the 3 DEs regarding collecting dwindle and fail, only to find that its far too difficult to succeed the next part of the DE without those siege weapons and NPC helpers.

I think the scaling is definitely the problem with the events. Yes some are by nature boring, but the fact that there is no way you can loose that makes them even more boring. You know from the start that it’s just another type of grind spamming abilities in a zerg. Zero challenge. Of course even the most elaborate event will look dull when you just press 2 buttons: AOE and loot

So far i’m finding the most fun events those that are 5-6 players max, or those out of the ordinary (like the one you’re turned into a crab and have to fight that large crab in the arena), most are just xp and loot farm.

If the scaling would be done properly, and 20 people zergs could actually wipe from time to time i’m sure even the current events would look more appealing. Sure, make some easier, but have at least a few that need some sort of coordination to be able to complete so zerg fests cannot win them anymore.

supergica.8652:

I think the scaling is definitely the problem with the events. Yes some are by nature boring, but the fact that there is no way you can loose that makes them even more boring. You know from the start that it’s just another type of grind spamming abilities in a zerg. Zero challenge. Of course even the most elaborate event will look dull when you just press 2 buttons: AOE and loot

So far i’m finding the most fun events those that are 5-6 players max, or those out of the ordinary (like the one you’re turned into a crab and have to fight that large crab in the arena), most are just xp and loot farm.

If the scaling would be done properly, and 20 people zergs could actually wipe from time to time i’m sure even the current events would look more appealing. Sure, make some easier, but have at least a few that need some sort of coordination to be able to complete so zerg fests cannot win them anymore.

The problem as I’ve stated either in this thread or others, is that scaling past a certain threshold tunes battles past the threshold of ‘well designed.’

You can’t simply make more mobs spawn, as AOE will still kill them just the same. You can’t give them more HP, because then it just takes too long and isn’t fun hitting the same thing for an hour. You can’t give them too much damage, because they’ll just 1 hit KO everyone.

Buffing mobs is simply NOT the answer. The answer is creating truly ‘dynamic’ events which require the zerg to break apart in order to be successful.

I know I said you can’t simply increase Mob strength,hp,etc, but you CAN if there is a way to disable that strength…say…through an alternative DE in another area.

By the looks of things, it just looks like a.net didn’t build this kind of complexity into the system (complexity used lightly). I don’t see any other reason things like this don’t already exist unless its due to incompetent game design…a trend in recently released video games.

current DE mobs need to hit harder, there needs to be more of them and they need to have much more HP, all relative to the zerg. the numbers and stats need to respond more appropriately to the potential DPS of the zerg. this i believe is a quick solution that would make DE’s much more enjoyable for now. and i expect a fix like this to be released soon, otherwise i’ll be spending most of my time in WvW and spvp.

youre talking about a compete rework, which is just not going to happen. not any time soon. but im sure the new DE’s their live team releases will have more complexity built into them. the current system is an excellent foundation and it works (relatively). it’s decent now and it’s going to get much better i think with new content releases.

^ If it doesn’t happen, this game will continue to utterly suck. Whatever…