Guild Wars 2

Hello guys i sure many of you agree that the dredge fractal is way to long compared to the others, and i opened this thread to disscuss on what can be done for making it shorter.
I been doing fractals from day 1 on many proffesions and on all levels (so i got some clue about the length of things), and well i can still say that dredge is the only fractal ( including the new once ) that can take longer then any dungeon in the game! and this is very Wrong!
Any combination of the other fractals ( full run!) can be finished in a hour ~ while dredge ALONE can take allmost that time even with a premade experinced team and thats far from any other fractal.
My suggestion is to reduce the amount of enemies in that fractal by at least half ( that also goes for the truck with the 1k dredge comming out of it ) this in my opinion will make that fractal alot more balanced compared to the others in the third tier (this really shouldnt take much effort from Anet, only deleting…).
I really hope Anet will have a look on this thread ( i will keep posting about this until they do because its very importent to fix this VERY unbalanced issue ).

P.S I forgot to say 1 more thing . Third tier suppose to be the hardest and dredge fractal got some hard mechanics BUT having the need to kill so MANY enemies aint making it harder as much as it makes it just ALOT longer!

The number of enemies isn’t the only problem with this fractal. At higher difficulty levels, the button room becomes a sort of guaranteed armor repair bill, and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The part with the bombs has a similar problem. My suggestion:

Turn off the respawning of every enemy in this fractal.

In guess the turning respawn off would nearly be enough, yes.
It would still be quite annoying to kill a whole army of dredge but at least you could actualy fight your way through.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The number of enemies isn’t the only problem with this fractal. At higher difficulty levels, the button room becomes a sort of guaranteed armor repair bill, and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The part with the bombs has a similar problem. My suggestion:

Turn off the respawning of every enemy in this fractal.

Well i think turnning of the respawning will hurt the difficulty of the fractal ( it will be little shorter specialy for weaker groups that fail on those parts BUT the long long trash clearing is still there ). I think the mechanics themself are ok for a third fractal.
But its really should be shorter, a good example is the volcanic fractal , its not long but it still counts hard and third tier cuz of its mechanics like the end boss ( fire shaman ).

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

The number of enemies isn’t the only problem with this fractal. At higher difficulty levels, the button room becomes a sort of guaranteed armor repair bill, and that rubs a lot of people the wrong way. The part with the bombs has a similar problem. My suggestion:

Turn off the respawning of every enemy in this fractal.

FYI, if you die on button now, u get teleported off of it. So now you actually have to stay alive to keep the door open… Thanks for making it even harder for no reason what-so-ever. “We balanced and tweaked some fractal levels to make them more fun and enjoyable” Your definition of enjoyable is a joke…

This fractal will never be acceptable until the clowncart is removed. This, and slightly decrease all dredge’s health/armor by 20%. Then it will still be long, but at least 10-20 minutes less so (depending on level).

give us some way to blind the dredge and this fractal can be put on the easy tier.

People can finish it in 20-25 minutes. It only takes longer because they don’t know the mechanics and/or there’s poor communication among the team. The console room at the beginning is only a repair bill because the majority if people don’t know how to do it properly and relied on dying on top of the switches.

Please don’t give ArenaNet any suggestions considering the Dredge fractal because their solution will always be adding more dredge.

Ayrilana.1396:

People can finish it in 20-25 minutes. It only takes longer because they don’t know the mechanics and/or there’s poor communication among the team. The console room at the beginning is only a repair bill because the majority if people don’t know how to do it properly and relied on dying on top of the switches.

I dont know where you getting all this info but please stop…
I been doing frac from day 1 did zillion of dredge (48+) runs , and guess what an avarage run took ? closer to hour dear sir! , finishing dredge in 30min or less requires good CO-OP ( usuely TS) or/and strong setup with well experinced players , this is a rare sight on a LFG team. Hell not once and not twice that i had LFG groups of frac 80 that got closer to 1hour simply because of the lose of time on the CO-OP mechanics…
A change is VERY needed!!! and keep on saying it can be done in 30min is silly…
You can/could finish the whole fractal run in 30min so does it mean all made it? maybe 5% at best with the right fractals…

Ways to make this fractal better:

1) Remove the first 2 switchs that opens the way to the big room. Just keep the big room with the console with 2 switchs. It already offers enough challenge for pugs.
2) Remove the bomb side. Just keep the guns part (not much suicide needed in this path).
3) Reduce the amount of mobs. There’s just way too many dredge in this fractal. This includes the clown car.

And voila, we have a much needed fix on dredge which cuts a lot of the time it takes to finish while also removing much unneeded suicide.

Kresa.1859:

Ayrilana.1396:

People can finish it in 20-25 minutes. It only takes longer because they don’t know the mechanics and/or there’s poor communication among the team. The console room at the beginning is only a repair bill because the majority if people don’t know how to do it properly and relied on dying on top of the switches.

I dont know where you getting all this info but please stop…
I been doing frac from day 1 did zillion of dredge (48+) runs , and guess what an avarage run took ? closer to hour dear sir! , finishing dredge in 30min or less requires good CO-OP ( usuely TS) or/and strong setup with well experinced players , this is a rare sight on a LFG team. Hell not once and not twice that i had LFG groups of frac 80 that got closer to 1hour simply because of the lose of time on the CO-OP mechanics…
A change is VERY needed!!! and keep on saying it can be done in 30min is silly…
You can/could finish the whole fractal run in 30min so does it mean all made it? maybe 5% at best with the right fractals…

Sorry but I’m not going to just stop posting because you dislike my answer. I personally have been in groups that finish it within 30 minutes. In one of the multiple threads posting in this subforum about the dredge fractal, I have posted videos of various groups beating it in 20-25 minutes on various fractal levels.

Well if the groups that struggle at dredge used a bit of strategy than zerg/rush through everything then get may complete it quicker. I’d think at that fractal level people would be more skilled and know how to do the fractals efficiently.

Ayrilana.1396:

Sorry but I’m not going to just stop posting because you dislike my answer. I personally have been in groups that finish it within 30 minutes. In one of the multiple threads posting in this subforum about the dredge fractal, I have posted videos of various groups beating it in 20-25 minutes on various fractal levels.

Well if the groups that struggle at dredge used a bit of strategy than zerg/rush through everything then get may complete it quicker. I’d think at that fractal level people would be more skilled and know how to do the fractals efficiently.

Link please.

Romo.3709:

Ayrilana.1396:

Sorry but I’m not going to just stop posting because you dislike my answer. I personally have been in groups that finish it within 30 minutes. In one of the multiple threads posting in this subforum about the dredge fractal, I have posted videos of various groups beating it in 20-25 minutes on various fractal levels.

Well if the groups that struggle at dredge used a bit of strategy than zerg/rush through everything then get may complete it quicker. I’d think at that fractal level people would be more skilled and know how to do the fractals efficiently.

Link please.

It’s the other dredge fractal thread on the first page.

This is what I normally do for the first part which seems people are also realizing is a good way to do it now.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1rpfpg/underground_facility_fractal_strategy/

Kresa.1859:

Well i think turnning of the respawning will hurt the difficulty of the fractal

That is the idea. Currently it is harder than the other Fractals, which makes it unpopular. Turning off the respawning, would allow us to simply fight through the Fractal (which is a lot more enjoyable), and not have to deal with armor repair bills at the bombs and at the button room.

I would also half the health of the Dredge boss, and half the number of dredge that come out of the clown car. That dredge boss could also use more interesting mechanics. Right now it is just a very tedious damage sponge.

Ayrilana, those videos are not realy helpful.

The first is actualy good, but its about a well coordinated group with realy good team composition (good use of guardian reflects) and in no way applyable to average groups. Not to mention that even that would be harder with the new patches (instability like the more damage from sides and behind and dredge fractal is hell).

The second one is good played, but nearly a year old and the team uses bugs that have been fixed. Additionaly it’s on level 20 prior to this patch and therefore the dredge are quite less strong and numerous than on high fractals. And the same about beeing prior to this patch argument as above.

The third is on level 8 and way over half a year old so no much value to that.

A video of a group doing it recently in the upper 40s in 30 mins would be impressive, but still doesn’t negate the fact that nearly all fractal groups take way longer for this. By the way i would like to know how long such a group would take for all other fractals as I would bet quite a lot that these would be cleared way faster in that case

Aside from the instabilities, the dredge fractals have not really changed all that much. Yes people cannot do some of the exploits but the general impact on the time to completion isn’t really that much. The age of the videos doesn’t matter.

While the group in the first video was highly coordinated, it’s not that difficult to achieve something very similar from a pug. One of the complaints was that the clown car takes 15+ minutes but they did it in about 6ish. A pug should be able to do it in about 8 minutes on average at the higher fractals. At the lower end they’ll do it in a matter of minutes.

Here’s another video of a group doing it post patch. It starts at 38:20 and goes to about 1 hour and 18 minutes into the video. A group that knows what they’re doing can do the first bit in about 5 minutes compared to the 10 minutes they took trying to exploit the kitten out of it. If that group did it the normal way from the start, they would have beaten it in roughly 35 minutes at fractal level 31. There are numerous things they could’ve done a little better to get sub-30 minutes.

I love the dredge fractal if you have a group that doesn’t try to kitten around and exploit it and is halfways decent. More enemies equals more loot, and it’s not overly hard or long IMO. The length is made up for in the amount of drops I get out of it. I don’t know if there is any other one I’d rather have as my third fractal.

Piecekeeper.4361:

More enemies equals more loot

Not if they are respawning enemies, they don’t drop any loot at all.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Piecekeeper.4361:

More enemies equals more loot

Not if they are respawning enemies, they don’t drop any loot at all.

Every one from the clown car has a chance to drop loot. Same as the ones on the bomb path.

No it seems that for example the ones that spawn at the bombs only drop loot the first time you kill them. But when they respawn, they no longer drop loot. Otherwise it would be an infinite dredge farm.

Ayrilana.1396:

If that group did it the normal way from the start, they would have beaten it in roughly 35 minutes at fractal level 31. There are numerous things they could’ve done a little better to get sub-30 minutes.

Ok, now we’re technically at 35min, with hypothetical optimizations to get it under 30min. Which is still 10/15 minutes more than the 20/25 minutes you announced earlier in the thread.

And guess what ? 35min — ok, let’s say 30min, for an optimum runtime is still way too long and just confirms most groups are currently dragging there for at least an hour.

I did it this weekend on lvl33 (mass damages when getting flanked — yep, the already infamous one), and it was hell. Did we manage to clear it ? Yes. Did we spend two hours in there ? No. Only one hour. Did we enjoy the run ? Not at all.

By the way, what do you find so enjoyable in this particular fractal in the first place ?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No it seems that for example the ones that spawn at the bombs only drop loot the first time you kill them. But when they respawn, they no longer drop loot. Otherwise it would be an infinite dredge farm.

That was the reason why it is the way it is now. People were farming that particular spot for hours on end. Until it was patched with current “fix”.

This fractal i way too hard compered to others, especially first part when you can no longer die on the buttons.

Geoffroy.3685:

Ayrilana.1396:

If that group did it the normal way from the start, they would have beaten it in roughly 35 minutes at fractal level 31. There are numerous things they could’ve done a little better to get sub-30 minutes.

Ok, now we’re technically at 35min, with hypothetical optimizations to get it under 30min. Which is still 10/15 minutes more than the 20/25 minutes you announced earlier in the thread.

And guess what ? 35min — ok, let’s say 30min, for an optimum runtime is still way too long and just confirms most groups are currently dragging there for at least an hour.

I did it this weekend on lvl33 (mass damages when getting flanked — yep, the already infamous one), and it was hell. Did we manage to clear it ? Yes. Did we spend two hours in there ? No. Only one hour. Did we enjoy the run ? Not at all.

By the way, what do you find so enjoyable in this particular fractal in the first place ?

This was just one group that wasted time and didn’t perform as well as they could have. The only reason I posted that particular one was because it was post patch and well under the hour that other people claimed. Your group struggling had more to do with the instability rather than the fractal itself.

This video hardly confirms that people take over an hour. To go from 35 minutes to about an hour for what you consider most groups is a little absurd. If you take an hour to do the fractal (and depending on the instability), you have a poor group due to not working as a team, not using effective strategies, no coordination, etc.

What I like about the fractal? i like the small bit of coordination it takes to do the first part with the console. I like the teamwork that is involved to bring down the door to the mini-boss. I love the mechanics for the final boss. What I don’t like is when people want to nerf things solely because they don’t want to put in the effort to work as a team. I also don’t like it when they want to change it into a McFractal because it takes longer to do at a higher scale than lower one.

People should be continually trying to improve upon themselves as they play. It’s reasonable to assume that players improve the longer that they play with the minor exception to the case. If the fractals seems to long, think about what it is that you could do to make it shorter. There were groups that could do it in around 20 minutes. This was pre-update but not much has considerably changed. If they could do it then people could easily reach their level or come close to it. This is much better than trying to nerf a dungeon to hedge against poor groups.

Keep it as it is but give it its own unique rewards.

Or if thats too much effort, put a whole bunch of ori nodes in there, along with some T6 mats as rewards. Just basically make it worth its difficulty.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

No it seems that for example the ones that spawn at the bombs only drop loot the first time you kill them. But when they respawn, they no longer drop loot. Otherwise it would be an infinite dredge farm.

Exactly, and it was patched exactly for people to stop doing it. Groups used to roll for dredge and farm them (when fractals first came out)

And i agree with some suggestions like removing the bomb path… even for “expert groups” it only comes down to taking your armor off & suicide running the bombs until door is down…
The buttons room can be very annoying for groups that dont run 3+ heavy classes, its stupid to have people swap out because the mechanic of the room +2 previous doors is broken. That room is still do-able, but not by the average fractal group.

Just standing on the switches and taking damage isn’t the only strategy for the console room. You can get by with just one heavy class. I believe the issue is that people rely on the guides (written by only one or two players) and that everyone assumes they have the best and only way to do something which then prevents people from experimenting in finding better ways to surpass obstacles.

I believe that there was another stategy for the bomb path but the zerging to the door is more often done. It was just easier to do in pug groups so everyone does it.

I’ve done my fair share of fractals, and I have to say I don’t find anything in dredge difficult aside from bombing the door. However, it does take way too long compared to… well pretty much anything else. I’ve read about people complaining about the buttons in the first room… that part isn’t too difficult, but it really should be toned down a bit. Take out that first veteran dredge in the room and that should make that part considerably easier (seeing as though he can take down most people in 2 hits). As for the rest of the fractal, the clowncar needs some serious reworking. Either take out the vast number of dredge that come out of it, OR just have the boss spawn some dredge, and the event ends as soon as the boss dies, rather than 10 minutes of afk auto attacking in front of that stupid car. Pug groups should get by considerably faster that way without having it be too easy. It really shouldn’t take as long as it does.

Ayrilana.1396:

People can finish it in 20-25 minutes. It only takes longer because they don’t know the mechanics and/or there’s poor communication among the team. The console room at the beginning is only a repair bill because the majority if people don’t know how to do it properly and relied on dying on top of the switches.

I don’t care if you can finish it in 20 minutes, it doesn’t matter – some people can solo lupicus in 5 minutes or melee him in 1, it doesn’t mean, everyone should be expected to do the same. You yourself stated that “majority” of people don’t do it optimally, this fractal has been out for a year now, situation ain’t gonna change.
I’ve done it probably a hundred+ of times and it always takes a hour minimum, with bad pugs, it sometimes takes 2 hours+. IT’S NOT RIGHT.

Did a 28 last night.
First swamp, second molten, third dredge.

Dredge took about twice what the other fractals took combined.

We spent an unreasonable amount of time trying to do the switch segments. I was apparently the only one on the team tanky enough to activate a switch and survive (despite being a zerker ele in a party with a warrior 2 rangers and a thief…)
Which meant I would activate the second switch, the party would run in. I’d race down to the door, and by the time I got there, 3 of the party would be downed and the last was dying.

Eventually we decided to skip the switches, the new extra mobs, and the hassle all together and just drop in. I was forced to effectively solo a side, but we made it.

Then we had to contest with the bombs. 2 of our party decided to spend the entire time attacking the first group of dredge (who respawn infinitely)
after multiple res-rushes, due to the inability of blocking dredge via guardian skills, we had to defend the bombs with our lives every time. The door blows up.

Instead of 90% of the dredge vanishing like before this update, now they hang around for god knows what reason. More clearing. Then the clown cart which meant even more clearing.

At this point one of our members had to go chat with his wife, who was confused about what was taking so long. Eventually we got to the boss, which we had to 3 man because the warrior had no agony res and couldnt dodge the shockwave worth a kitten , and one ranger we let stay dead because he was actually a negative impact on the fight altogether.

It’s pretty obvious that the dredge fractal is by far harder than the others.
Even Anet knows that, it’s why it’s now a 3rd fractal, which is where they put the kittenes. (A move I still consider absolutely bumblekitten stupid)

Anet’s solution to the fact that we dont like dredge fractal? Add more dredge, make the button segment more difficult, make less dredge despawn on certain parts, and make the clown car more difficult. It’s like they looked at every complaint, and did the exact opposite of what they should have done.

Seveleniumus.5973:

Ayrilana.1396:

People can finish it in 20-25 minutes. It only takes longer because they don’t know the mechanics and/or there’s poor communication among the team. The console room at the beginning is only a repair bill because the majority if people don’t know how to do it properly and relied on dying on top of the switches.

I don’t care if you can finish it in 20 minutes, it doesn’t matter – some people can solo lupicus in 5 minutes or melee him in 1, it doesn’t mean, everyone should be expected to do the same. You yourself stated that “majority” of people don’t do it optimally, this fractal has been out for a year now, situation ain’t gonna change.
I’ve done it probably a hundred+ of times and it always takes a hour minimum, with bad pugs, it sometimes takes 2 hours+. IT’S NOT RIGHT.

I never stated optimally. Optimal would be exactly what DnT and rT do with specific classes/builds, voice chat, predetermined strategies. All I suggested was that people learn the mechanics so they understand how to do the dungeon and then think about how to over one the obstacles rather than rely on a single guide that has been regurgitated countless times which may or may not be the best way overcome the obstacle.

People don’t have to be as optimal as pre-set dungeon groups. It’s just them clearing them in 20-25 minutes compared to the 1-2 hours other people claim is a rather large gap. People should easily be able to make moderate changes to close the gap and improve their times.

As I stated before, nerfing the fractal in an effort to lower the bar for players that don’t want to make the effort to work as a team, learn the mechanics, develop strategies, improve upon themselves as a player is absolutely the wrong way to go. I want to make it clear that not everyone falls under this and are often held back by players where it does. I had made another statement previously that this should not be nerfed to hedge against bad groups.

Ayrilana.1396:

As I stated before, nerfing the fractal in an effort to lower the bar for players that don’t want to make the effort to work as a team, learn the mechanics, develop strategies, improve upon themselves as a player is absolutely the wrong way to go. I want to make it clear that not everyone falls under this and are often held back by players where it does. I had made another statement previously that this should not be nerfed to hedge against bad groups.

Let’s be realistic – most people pug, in a pug, even if each individual knows what they’re doing, there will be gaps in coordination. If dredge was one of the new fractals then yes, you could say – give it time, people will learn, but it isn’t like that, right? And making fractal shorter doesn’t equal nerfing it. Shaman fractal is arguably harder, but no one is complaining about it, why is that? Because it’s difficulty centers around interesting boss mechanics, people need to adjust to overcome, it’s difficulty doesn’t come from endless waves of trash mobs and cheap mechanics, requiring specific classes to be able to do reliably. All people are asking for is to lower the needless trash count. Clown car doesn’t make encounter harder, it makes it longer, same goes for endless waves of mobs in between. Removing the trash wouldn’t nerf fractals difficulty in any way.

Seveleniumus.5973:

making fractal shorter doesn’t equal nerfing it. Shaman fractal is arguably harder, but no one is complaining about it, why is that? Because it’s difficulty centers around interesting boss mechanics, people need to adjust to overcome, it’s difficulty doesn’t come from endless waves of trash mobs and cheap mechanics, requiring specific classes to be able to do reliably.

Exactly that. I don’t complain about this fractal’s difficulty, it isn’t by any stretch difficult but about its length and tediousness.

What about removing the clown car and champion altogether along with the bomb path?
You’ll get switch room —> laser guns —> last boss ?

That would put the length more inline with the other fractals and only keep the good / interesting part, no ?

Anet’s solution to the fact that we dont like dredge fractal? Add more dredge, make the button segment more difficult, make less dredge despawn on certain parts, and make the clown car more difficult. It’s like they looked at every complaint, and did the exact opposite of what they should have done.

This is so true, and I usually support the changes made. But this is just so riddiculous that seems like a bad 1. april joke.

.

Ayrilana.1396:

I never stated optimally. Optimal would be exactly what DnT and rT do with specific classes/builds, voice chat, predetermined strategies. All I suggested was that people learn the mechanics so they understand how to do the dungeon and then think about how to over one the obstacles rather than rely on a single guide that has been regurgitated countless times which may or may not be the best way overcome the obstacle.

People don’t have to be as optimal as pre-set dungeon groups. It’s just them clearing them in 20-25 minutes compared to the 1-2 hours other people claim is a rather large gap. People should easily be able to make moderate changes to close the gap and improve their times.

As I stated before, nerfing the fractal in an effort to lower the bar for players that don’t want to make the effort to work as a team, learn the mechanics, develop strategies, improve upon themselves as a player is absolutely the wrong way to go. I want to make it clear that not everyone falls under this and are often held back by players where it does. I had made another statement previously that this should not be nerfed to hedge against bad groups.

I think we al figured out already that you are very uber skilled pro. As you do, many other people think that the problem of this fractal isn’t the difficult, myself included. I like challenges, even ones that make me curse having joined a random pug party instead of taking my time and organize it with friends.

BUT the lenght of this fractal IS an issue. You claim it is doable in 20 minutes, then 35 minutes, then 20 again. I don’t know what levels you are doing, and I really don’t care. What I know is that the clown cart alone takes a minimum of 10 minutes at lvl 49, which is most likely 15 minutes with a non-full-zerker group. You just can’t make mobs spawn faster, I’m sorry. The loot that comes from the mobs is no consolation to this, I could easily make a CoF run with bad pugs in the same amount of time and get a better reward if I wanted to. And even have fun!

Aside from the clown cart, that dungeon isn’t too bad – but some issues still remains. What about the legendary dredge in the switch room? The guy has like 1M hp and hits like a truck. What’s the point of having him there? Is the answer to make us waste 3 minutes just to kill him or to abuse stealth to avoid him? Or what’s the point of having legions of veteran dredges guarding a door while respawning in 15 seconds, stealing bombs regardless of barriers? Is it to let us abuse stealth again, since the absurdly long time that bombs take to reappear and the dredge’s strenght and numbers makes fighting them pointless? It surely seems so. Well, maybe it is all a tactic to give thieves a little usefulness in pve, which is deserved.

So I’m happy for you if you clear this path in 20 minutes, but until a nearly flawless run with a good (not superb) PUG team at lvl 49 takes at least 45 minutes, while the other 3 combined fractals takes the same amount of time or less, I think there objectively is a problem, and it isn’t – in this case – the players. And the fact that some fractals (ex. harpies) got a little rework to make them more enjoyable (not easier, because more harpies meant simply more time, not increased difficulty since you could just endlessly respawn near them), while dredge was made longer by adding dredges… this just screams a loudly WHY?

Vissarion.6509:

.

at least you got 2 thieves xD

i am glad i play one too and can solo door with relative ease but i shudder from just thinking about how ppl do it w/o thief

imo 2 things need change for sure:
- respawn needs to be either removed or put on very long timer
- clown car, if stayed, needs WAAAAAAAAAAYYYYY less mobs