Guild Wars 2

By instilling a leaderboard and competition in fractals and tying better higher end rewards to more difficult fractal levels I am concerned about certain professions becoming omitted from fractal progression (such as thief and especially ranger).

Edited for clarity

God help all of the non-mes/heavy classes, HERE ANET HAS WROUGHT UPON THOU THE END OF TIMES.

If you’re gonna introduce mechanics which obliterates heavy, optimized parties, won’t that make fights impossible for un-optimized parties?

Also, war/guard/mes only fractal parties are already a thing.

Every time anything new has been released, I have always seen far more teams who don’t give a hoot what profession you are than ones what specify.

No classes will be “omitted”. The majority of teams won’t care. You always have those few who scream in all caps that they only want ZERKER WARS and everybody must be GEARCHECKED, but they really aren’t the majority. Not even close. PvE in this game is far, far more open than most.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Every time anything new has been released, I have always seen far more teams who don’t give a hoot what profession you are than ones what specify.

No classes will be “omitted”. The majority of teams won’t care. You always have those few who scream in all caps that they only want ZERKER WARS and everybody must be GEARCHECKED, but they really aren’t the majority. Not even close. PvE in this game is far, far more open than most.

This post somehow reminded me of back in the days of RuneScape, when everyone required end-game gear to get into a party for an end-game boss, but the end-game gear was dropped only by that boss.

Xae Isareth.1364:

This post somehow reminded me of back in the days of RuneScape, when everyone required end-game gear to get into a party for an end-game boss, but the end-game gear was dropped only by that boss.

It’s only gotten worse, and who in their right mind would pay millions for gear that vanishes completely when it fully degrades?

But hey, it’s an old game, and to each his own, I guess. I always preferred safer activities because death in RuneScape was more punishing than in here.

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

lordhelmos.7623:

By instilling a leaderboard and competition in fractals and tying better higher end rewards to more difficult fractal levels I am concerned about certain professions becoming omitted from fractal progression (such as thief and especially ranger).

Edited for clarity

Coming from someone who’s got multiple high-level fractal characters, thieves are actually useful in fractals if you can play them right…problem is, most people can’t.

lordhelmos.7623:

By instilling a leaderboard and competition in fractals and tying better higher end rewards to more difficult fractal levels I am concerned about certain professions becoming omitted from fractal progression (such as thief and especially ranger).

Edited for clarity

So when you post looking for group as a ranger for a 38 or 48 run, you wouldn’t mind having 2 more rangers and 2 necros joining?
I know I would, that’s why I don’t bring mine to fractals.

Rangers and thieves in fractals happen to suck most times, but the difference is that a well played thief is great while a well played ranger is still subpar.

Bagel.4598:

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

My group was warrior, guardian x 2, elementalist, ranger, and we did fine. Competent players who understand their class and are properly geared (zerker) will always do well.

I would say the double guardian part at later levels is really helpful though.

Fractal level is acc bound, now you have no more excuse to carry on playing a supbar profession in Fotm.

Thanks Anet!

/sarcasm

I remember that once I completed a fractal lvl 42 with 2 necros, 1 mesmer, 1 ranger and 1 engineer… It was quite interesting…

Although to be honest the run went quite well and in part I think we had to thank the fact that we didn’t got any “hard” fractals (like ones that need reflects or something like that).

Its easier to see mesmer omitted from higher lvl fractals than thieves….

Yet the 2 guardian+1 warrior necessity is an issue….and with the new system will be even worse.

Good thing I’m playing a Guardian then.

haviz.1340:

Bagel.4598:

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

Actually there are 5 things: Dodge, Duck, Dip, Dive, Dodge

Can’t wait for aetherblade and molten fractals with their anti ranger mechanics that make the whole class ability useless.

Taku.6352:

Can’t wait for aetherblade and molten fractals with their anti ranger mechanics that make the whole class ability useless.

well its not that the current maw with permareflecting mobs is much better.

I don’t roll thief but thief utility is very good in dredge and uncategorized fractals as well as some tight spots like res’n during fights

haviz.1340:

Bagel.4598:

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

Not really. For example, in the Snowblind fractal, trying to dodge everything would be like trying to dodge rain. The fact that the midboss is a construct renders Zerker gear useless anyways.

Xae Isareth.1364:

haviz.1340:

Bagel.4598:

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

Not really. For example, in the Snowblind fractal, trying to dodge everything would be like trying to dodge rain. The fact that the midboss is a construct renders Zerker gear useless anyways.

Zerker gear is still good for dealing with the adds before your reflects run out.

I had been scaling up in a group that ran one guard, one mes, a warrior that would swap to thief at times, and either two warriors or a warrior and an ele. We’d swap around who was on guardian duty and thief duty because we were progressing 3 warriors, a mesmer, and an ele. Was certainly more enjoyable than the standard 2g/2w/1 other setup – even when we had to figure out how to fight the Uncategorized boss with no guards.

Other than rangers, I think all classes can do pretty well in fractals. I’ve been in groups with necros that keep blind, weakness, and other conditions up. Thieves can also help keep up blind and weakness and have plenty of cc in addition to all that stealth. Rangers have frost spirit, spotter, and entangle, but their best weapon is bound to send them flying off a ledge in Cliffside or Uncategorized or root them at the wrong time in Urban Battleground.

I’m a mesmer and see things from a different perspective. I’m wanted in groups… but only 1 mesmer. Then there are kick-votes even before swamp started.

Ironically, with 2 mesmers you have a lot of reflects, and alternating TWs. Don’t understand it. I’ve done tens of frac 48’s and some of the best runs were with 2 x mesmer… oh well.

Upham.6137:

lordhelmos.7623:

By instilling a leaderboard and competition in fractals and tying better higher end rewards to more difficult fractal levels I am concerned about certain professions becoming omitted from fractal progression (such as thief and especially ranger).

Edited for clarity

So when you post looking for group as a ranger for a 38 or 48 run, you wouldn’t mind having 2 more rangers and 2 necros joining?
I know I would, that’s why I don’t bring mine to fractals.

Rangers and thieves in fractals happen to suck most times, but the difference is that a well played thief is great while a well played ranger is still subpar.

Rangers are rather bad in FoTM and high end PVE. Same with Necros.
The reason I personally look to avoid these classes in PVE or FOTM is because of the people playing them.
If you’re doing FOTM 48 on a ranger – which is a pretty poor FOTM class – then you’re doing things wrong on a conceptual level. You’re giving yourself a disadvantage from the start – and you’re not the type of player I want.
That’s why I personally choose to stay away from certain types of players. They’re not efficient and not min/maxers – and in the end they end up eating away my time.

Honestly , I do around level 40 fractals all the time , and most of the times the only real must have is 1 guardian . Everything else can work if the players know what to do . 15 mins up or down for a run is irrelevant

I play high fractal with all of my guildmate and they all have different class. Guardian, Warrior, Mesmer, Ranger, Thief, Elementalist and Necromancer. The only class with which i don’t do high fractal with is Engineer for no particular reason. I simply don’t have any friend that play with Engineer in PvE (I use mine only in WvW and sPvP).

I love rangers in fotm if they are good. They need to be running healing spring and war horn. Every class has certain weapons that are usually a must in fractals. Mesmer mainhand sword in dredge, staff guard (and hammer imo).
Warriors must bring banners and FGJ, I don’t care if you are gods gift to warriors I am kicking you from my group if you are running 5 signets. If you are a thief I hope you actually are running all signets because that is some good deeps given the fact that you swap around as necessary with shadow refuge and smoke screen.

Those aiming for the leaderboards will have dedicated groups, so worrying about your class in fractals (any more than you do in their current form), seems unnecessary.

Dredge Fractal.

Shadow Refuge.

You are most welcome.

Long version? I do not see it really impacting the classes any more than it does now. It depends on how the leaderboards are set up, but given the random nature of the shards you get, a full zerk warrior setup may work well for one fractal but be utterly decimated in another.

I say this as someone who cleared to 48 on a thief, who has run plenty of 48s with necros, engineers, and rangers, or even a second Thief , let alone the other classes. In fact, having a Ranger or an Elementalist was extremely useful for 48’s on the Jade Maw before the ascended weapons came out. Why? Waterfields and a thief’s shortbow blast finisher spam actually kept the party alive through the Maw’s agony. No need to resort to weird tricks to do so, just waterfield and blast blast blast.

Xae Isareth.1364:

haviz.1340:

Bagel.4598:

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

Not really. For example, in the Snowblind fractal, trying to dodge everything would be like trying to dodge rain. The fact that the midboss is a construct renders Zerker gear useless anyways.

In pve you do not try to dodge everything. I did not say everything. In snowbound you are dodging the ice elemwntal’s aoe 1 shot skill. Which is more than manageable with some chained anti kd.
If you’re swapping zerker gear for sustainability at all you should not being doing high level fractals. You need the dps to kill the eles quickly. The elemental source is turn based regardless of how quick you kill it, with ofc the exception of a Mesmer mimic.

Make your own group. Any profession can be useful.

The leaderboard should show the primary class of the user.

Thieves, eles & necros can speed up the fractals really fast IF they know what they are doing.
Most ppl on 40+ using those professions know how to use them.. (Every now & then I get people sucks so bad in 48 runs…But..what can you do?)
The thing is that you cant take big things head on in PvE with light armor & more so in fractals… Those who understand that are pros at fractals… some who arent accustomed to this cause ppl to avoid such classes

I personally like my team composition made of 3 heavies & 2 classes from above.
I dont have anything to say about rangers since I dont see them very often.

LordByron.8369:

Taku.6352:

Can’t wait for aetherblade and molten fractals with their anti ranger mechanics that make the whole class ability useless.

well its not that the current maw with permareflecting mobs is much better.

Oh those are just a deserved punishment inflicted on Bearbows and other ranged Rangers who still have not understood that melee/Sword is their friend.

Korossive.7085:

I’m a mesmer and see things from a different perspective. I’m wanted in groups… but only 1 mesmer. Then there are kick-votes even before swamp started.

Ironically, with 2 mesmers you have a lot of reflects, and alternating TWs. Don’t understand it. I’ve done tens of frac 48’s and some of the best runs were with 2 x mesmer… oh well.

more than 100% ._.

mediocre guardian equals really good thief…. that is major problem with this game in generall

some classes are too forgiving

Korossive.7085:

I’m a mesmer and see things from a different perspective. I’m wanted in groups… but only 1 mesmer. Then there are kick-votes even before swamp started.

Ironically, with 2 mesmers you have a lot of reflects, and alternating TWs. Don’t understand it. I’ve done tens of frac 48’s and some of the best runs were with 2 x mesmer… oh well.

My opinion would be mesmer being one of the last classes to stack like you described being the case in many groups.

Mesmer dps is unreliable and in general case low due to relying on having phantasms alive or getting good reflects. Therefore mesmers are wanted because of their unique utility aspects. However stacking these utilities gives bad returns: 2 portals gives basically nothing 1 wouldn’t give, 2 temporal curtains for mob placement is seldom needed considering the fairly low cooldown and as reflects they are on the weak side compared to other options, 2 feedbacks are still efficient, I give you that. When it comes to timewarp mesmer himself scales awful with quickness compared to other classes, because of phantasms again, to the point where I would even approximate 1 tw means 4 people gaining quickness for 10s and 2 tws mean 3 people gaining quickness for 20s for a total of 20s individual quickness increase for the group while dealing on average lower dps without quickness.
In a situation where mesmer can keep 3 phantasm up, namely 3 wardens, a single one will cover all the reflects a group needs, second mesmer won’t bring much additional utility with phantasms.

So stacking mesmers gives the group extra reflect with feedback (awesome) and makes the total dps output a lot less stable, and of course extra utility in rare occasions where multiple pulls etc. might be needed. Why not get for example an additional guardian instead if you need more reflects. That will give your party blocks, blinds and other boons while adding a lot more dps on average, on top of adding the reflects an additional mesmer would give?

I have nothing against mesmers and I think their design is awesome for dungeon content, but I see them as “one per group only” when aiming for efficiency. Using multiple will no doubt get the job done without problems if the players behind the screen perform.

I’m running Cleric Guard, no one has every said me to roll a berserker Guard.
I’ve had however many occasions where I have saved my team with my heals.

I’ve also played high level FOTMS (40+) with Necros and Thiefs and Rangers. They’re not bad, it depends on your personal skill level. Bad players will be bad with everything, even warrior.

style.6173:

The leaderboard should show the primary class of the user.

Interesting idea but atleast for me within my group thats going to fluctuate a lot. Ill probably be the one swapping to thief/ele/necro alot when needed.

I don’t play high level fotms, but in other dungeons I have found warriors to be the worst class to bring along. They brag about DPS, but spend half of the fight on the floor bleeding everywhere. I’ve been told that by playing a knight/zerker guard I’m hurting my group and should reroll as a warrior. Every class is helpful in specific situations, and in others you’ll want something else.
At the end of my Sorrow’s Embrace (Story) run 3 of the people in my group wiped at the first magma drop and the other didn’t want to help me because he thought I would go down and he’d have to pay a couple silver more for repair. Little did he know I know my class, and the extra toughness kept me alive. It let me get the boss to 50% HP by myself my first time fighting him. The others cheered, (one shouted “I want to have your baby” which was pretty awkward for me…) and he joined in. Due to a diversity on the typical zerker run we survived. If I had been a zerker we would’ve wiped and had to respawn. Zerkers groups are only good for certain things, and other classes can catch up by knowing where their speciality is needed.

Korossive.7085:

I’m a mesmer and see things from a different perspective. I’m wanted in groups… but only 1 mesmer. Then there are kick-votes even before swamp started.

Ironically, with 2 mesmers you have a lot of reflects, and alternating TWs. Don’t understand it. I’ve done tens of frac 48’s and some of the best runs were with 2 x mesmer… oh well.

Agreed. My semi-static HL group is 2 mes / 1 guard / 1 or 2 rangers (yes, rangers – please go watch some Brazil [DnT] videos and stop stigmatizing this class for no reason please) and one whatever. We do more than ok, but we had a couple of pugs leaving because there was “too much mesmers”.

Bagel.4598:

Xae Isareth.1364:

haviz.1340:

Bagel.4598:

The leader board will determine who is your group, not necessarily class.
PvE revolves around 2 things : DPS and Dodging.
Those that advance to high level fractals, regardless of being heavy, med or light, will be those with the skill to evade and earn their keep. It will be a skill thing.
If you make it to those levels you will be acknowledged.
Rangers in PvE are a poor class on a whole, you don’t need the new Fractals to show you that.
Thieves have their place and I think the new mechanics will strengthen that.
Fractals teaches you a lot about how to play, and I know that even rangers are powerful in a group build, running high end PvE.

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

Not really. For example, in the Snowblind fractal, trying to dodge everything would be like trying to dodge rain. The fact that the midboss is a construct renders Zerker gear useless anyways.

In pve you do not try to dodge everything. I did not say everything. In snowbound you are dodging the ice elemwntal’s aoe 1 shot skill. Which is more than manageable with some chained anti kd.
If you’re swapping zerker gear for sustainability at all you should not being doing high level fractals. You need the dps to kill the eles quickly. The elemental source is turn based regardless of how quick you kill it, with ofc the exception of a Mesmer mimic.

A lot of high leveled fractals are about sustain, and probably are going to be even more about sustain with the Mistlock Instability mechanic. On stuff like swamp, theres no point in wearing zerker gear before the boss because you won’t be attacking much, but just taking hits. You may as well go full defense if you’re running.

On snowblind, the ice ele doesn’t bother me at all, its attacks are extremely easy to dodge. The problem there is the veteran elementals he summons. There’s AoEs and projectiles flying around everywhere, which added to the constant DoT from the blizzard, pretty much insures you’re constantly taking damage.

Regarding killing the eles, I’ve found it to be often easier to switch to soldier gear and just nuke down the boss, ignoring them whilst dodging their attacks as best as you can because they just respawn.

Zerk warriors are either utter-fail or super-runners.

Checklist of good zerk warriors:
1. Understands melee boss mechanics and times dodges and skills well.
2. Uses banners (discipline, strength) because it helps the entire team improve DPS.
3. Uses other banners (defense, tactics) occasionally for eles and guardians.
4. Uses elite banner under two conditions: (a) difficult resses, (b) improving team DPS further.
5. Switches to rifle (not longbow) for ranged damage.
6. Does a good amount of weapon-swapping in general, getting in and out of combat depending on skill cool-downs.
7. May trait banners for regeneration.
8. May run with shield and fully absorb first hits/distract enemies for several seconds for pulling or gathering.

Checklist of bad zerks:

1. Runs with multiple ‘selfish’ signets. Signets are fine for doing content solo, but bad in teams.
2. Does not understand the utility of banners.
3. Does not understand how the interactions of other team members create opportunities for burst damage.

mage.3570:

5. Switches to rifle (not longbow) for ranged damage.
7. May trait banners for regeneration.
8. May run with shield and fully absorb first hits/distract enemies for several seconds for pulling or gathering.

5. Longbow is better than rifle for ranged damage
7. No thanks
8. Mace offhand is more valuable than shield (provides CC + vuln stacking) and for block, use sword off hand

80s are only done by 5 guardian groups everything one hits so the 5 overlapping ages help alot

mage.3570:

Zerk warriors are either utter-fail or super-runners.

Checklist of good zerk warriors:
1. Understands melee boss mechanics and times dodges and skills well.
2. Uses banners (discipline, strength) because it helps the entire team improve DPS.
3. Uses other banners (defense, tactics) occasionally for eles and guardians.
4. Uses elite banner under two conditions: (a) difficult resses, (b) improving team DPS further.
5. Switches to rifle (not longbow) for ranged damage.
6. Does a good amount of weapon-swapping in general, getting in and out of combat depending on skill cool-downs.
7. May trait banners for regeneration.
8. May run with shield and fully absorb first hits/distract enemies for several seconds for pulling or gathering.

Checklist of bad zerks:

1. Runs with multiple ‘selfish’ signets. Signets are fine for doing content solo, but bad in teams.
2. Does not understand the utility of banners.
3. Does not understand how the interactions of other team members create opportunities for burst damage.

I still have a long way ahead I see.

mage.3570:

Zerk warriors are either utter-fail or super-runners.

Checklist of good zerk warriors:
1. Understands melee boss mechanics and times dodges and skills well.
2. Uses banners (discipline, strength) because it helps the entire team improve DPS.
3. Uses other banners (defense, tactics) occasionally for eles and guardians.
4. Uses elite banner under two conditions: (a) difficult resses, (b) improving team DPS further.
5. Switches to rifle (not longbow) for ranged damage.
6. Does a good amount of weapon-swapping in general, getting in and out of combat depending on skill cool-downs.
7. May trait banners for regeneration.
8. May run with shield and fully absorb first hits/distract enemies for several seconds for pulling or gathering.

Checklist of bad zerks:

1. Runs with multiple ‘selfish’ signets. Signets are fine for doing content solo, but bad in teams.
2. Does not understand the utility of banners.
3. Does not understand how the interactions of other team members create opportunities for burst damage.

lol. Longbow is better than rifle in literally every way. Single, AoE, and group support.

Rifle is butt. Good Zerk warriors also don’t use shields, if you want to use an offhand with your axe you use a Sword or a Mace.

Also please don’t try to trick people into thinking Banner of Tactics or Defense are any good. They are not. They are bad.

mage.3570:

Zerk warriors are either utter-fail or super-runners.

Checklist of good zerk warriors:
1. Understands melee boss mechanics and times dodges and skills well.
2. Uses banners (discipline, strength) because it helps the entire team improve DPS.
3. Uses other banners (defense, tactics) occasionally for eles and guardians.
4. Uses elite banner under two conditions: (a) difficult resses, (b) improving team DPS further.
5. Switches to rifle (not longbow) for ranged damage.
6. Does a good amount of weapon-swapping in general, getting in and out of combat depending on skill cool-downs.
7. May trait banners for regeneration.
8. May run with shield and fully absorb first hits/distract enemies for several seconds for pulling or gathering.

Checklist of bad zerks:

1. Runs with multiple ‘selfish’ signets. Signets are fine for doing content solo, but bad in teams.
2. Does not understand the utility of banners.
3. Does not understand how the interactions of other team members create opportunities for burst damage.

This post literally made me lol

5. Longbow is superior to Rifle in every conceivable way. Condition damage is not good for PvE, Longbow stacks might, etc. etc.

7. Uh, ok, I guess. Yes you could trait banners, but there are better builds out there that you could be using instead. Anyway with a group, regeneration isn’t hard to come by.

8. Lol again. Mace offhand is again superior to shield in every conceivable way.

haviz.1340:

Actually, PvE revolves around 3 things: DPS, dodging and reflects.

Quoted the truth.

5 ele’s is faceroll on scale 80 sooo trololo biggest Problem is Players don’t know what they class can and guardsupport is just so well known and easy to Support a Group that Players Play it.. but every other class has nice Support ingi , thief , even necro with massblinds rangers. most ppl either just don’t know how to help they’re Group or other ppl don’t realize that they’re helping .. only because the Guardian ahs a big wall you see it doesn’t mean he is the best Support:)

The only thing I’ve ever seen are Fractal pugs demanding a certain level of AR. In fact, I’ve had two (probably noobish) pugs boot me because they didn’t want a Mesmer. I really don’t think they understood a Mesmer’s value in Fractals lol.