Guild Wars 2

ArenaNet, I have played and supported both of the Guild Wars titles beyond the box purchase, and have been a loyal follower for roughly 5 years now. I will say that I was hugely disappointed in the black lion chest scandal that happened, among many many others (1000 replies within 24 hours is an enormous amount). When I saw that there was a “solution” that your team had come up with, I was a bit wary, but still willing to give it a try since not all of my faith had been removed by this one mishap. Wisely, I decided to get on the forums to see what the feedback was on these new Mad King Chests, and it’s safe to say that you managed to ruin many people’s Halloween event.

The things that get me are the fact that Halloween is ArenaNet’s favorite event (http://www.arena.net/blog/arenanet-suits-up-for-halloween), you had always delivered in past Halloween events, this year it really just feels dirty. Was it that those people that enjoy Halloween at ArenaNet didn’t work on this content? Because this is just shameful and you should all be embarrassed of the fraud by deception scheme. The following is a quote from, ArenaNet lead producer, Chris Whiteside on the permanent banning of over 3000 players that decided to exploit the game:

“We take our community and the integrity of the game very seriously, and want to be clear that intentionally exploiting the game is unacceptable. The players we banned were certainly intentionally and repeatedly exploiting a bug in the game.

“We intended to send a very clear message that exploiting the game in this way will not be tolerated, and we believe this message now has been well understood.”

This is an ethical lesson that was being taught to the people who exploited, it was an extremely serious ethical lesson for over 3000 people, only a couple of days after the game was released. If you are going to teach, teach by example. The exploit that the players had committed in game was for a digital currency that has no monetary value in a game that has no monetary value, unless somebody were to break the rules even further and sell the gold for real world money, only then would it level up to the exploitation that your team imposed on the community during this Halloween event. You never had a problem in the original guild wars with events and exclusive items, most notably, the miniature polar bear, do the same style of events and we will be content.

The fact of the matter is that what you did is illegal, you can call it online gambling, or fraud by deception, it is up to you. But the “chance” feature and the ability to utilize real world money to increase your chances is gambling in the most real sense, and the fact that the odds are not stated and it is computer generated, is fraud by deception. If you go to a casino, slot machines have the odds on them, all of them do. If you go to a horse race, or bet on a sports game, the bookies have the odds.

This is a very real situation, and it is a very real possibility that there will be somebody that seeks legal counsel. You only postponed this situation by the small amount of faith that people had left in your company. I don’t know how many people are playing guild wars 2, or that purchased keys to get the exclusive items, or that are dissatisfied with their purchase, but do you really want to play those odds?

Consider this an ethical lesson on exploits and gambling, a very hard and dirty lesson that we all are learning. This is now your headache. My advice? Come up with a solution that will actually solve the problem and don’t do anything like this ever again.

Seriously?… Youre blowing this ridiculously out of proportion…

Instead of blowing 30g on chest, spend it on the item you want?

Yeah it sucked that the chances of getting anything is low, but at least you can get them…

Jrunyon.3012:

Seriously?… Youre blowing this ridiculously out of proportion…

It is my opinion as a consumer and my feedback with stated facts. The cash shop is going in a direction that is not pleasant, I only hope that my feedback will assist to “nip it in the bud.” If I am blowing it out of proportion, chances are, there will be somebody that takes it to a higher level out of proportion.

Diviner.7405:

Instead of blowing 30g on chest, spend it on the item you want?

Yeah it sucked that the chances of getting anything is low, but at least you can get them…

This would be nice, if it were just in game gold, but it is also real world money, which makes it a real world problem.

It sounds like you’re not familiar with the well-known “gachapon” feature that’s in a lot of MMO cash shops. Just like regular Black Lion Chests, the “Halloween edition” doesn’t guarantee rare items, they just added new ones to the mix.

The game owes you nothing. That is what you are forgetting. There was no deception. You gave the game ten dollars for some gems, and then you bought digital keys to open digital chests. The process was completely normal and worked EXACTLY as intended. It would be deception if you paid ten dollars and were told you’d get gems, but did not receive any. There was no guarantee that you’d get a special CHANCE BASED item from the chest. Sorry, there just wasn’t.

I doubt Anet is intimidated by you are the very small vocal minority here on the forums (Or other internet forums) giving them empty threats. This is not their headache, this is your headache. This is not their problem. You can try and make demands, but they won’t work. Seriously, they won’t.

Hey I opened 100 chests with the keys that I bought of BLTC and got nothing, so I blame Anet for exploiting me into buying keys.

Seriously what’s the point of this.

People buy keys with real money by their own will, that’s right Anet doesn’t hypnotise, encourage, exploit, or what ever you say it to tell people that they have to buy keys.

It’s their fault they buy key and get nothing, it’s a game of chance where not everyone gonna win.

That’s why I prefer reddit community rather than here because there are bunch of people who are not mature enough to be responsible with themself.

I bet some people have serious gambling issue in real life.

anthsss.1564:

Jrunyon.3012:

Seriously?… Youre blowing this ridiculously out of proportion…

It is my opinion as a consumer and my feedback with stated facts. The cash shop is going in a direction that is not pleasant, I only hope that my feedback will assist to “nip it in the bud.” If I am blowing it out of proportion, chances are, there will be somebody that takes it to a higher level out of proportion.

Diviner.7405:

Instead of blowing 30g on chest, spend it on the item you want?

Yeah it sucked that the chances of getting anything is low, but at least you can get them…

This would be nice, if it were just in game gold, but it is also real world money, which makes it a real world problem.

Real world money cause you choose to spend real world money. You can easily spend in-game money on the items.

Its all about player choice:
You can choose to spend 800 gems on keys OR you can choose to convert those gems into gold and just buy the skin you want off the TP. Most skins right now are between 1-2g, and Im pretty sure 800 gems can get what you want.
But instead you insist that everyone was forced to gamble their money away on nothing when that is not case. You do not have to gamble at all to get a skin. Stop insisting you do.

My biggest problem is that they offered a solution, gambling is gambling it was obviously gambling and if you spent money on it then any loss is your responsibility and yours alone.

XiaMae.9874:

It sounds like you’re not familiar with the well-known “gachapon” feature that’s in a lot of MMO cash shops. Just like regular Black Lion Chests, the “Halloween edition” doesn’t guarantee rare items, they just added new ones to the mix.

I understand that they don’t guarantee rare items, but there were no stated odds for either the black lion chest and the mad king chest, which is why I brought up fraud by deception. Whether the online gambling is an appropriate term is debatable, however, fraud by deception is very accurate. I can surely say that I would not have bought the keys if I had known that the drop rate was so low, among many many other people.

thavleifrim.4176:

My biggest problem is that they offered a solution, gambling is gambling it was obviously gambling and if you spent money on it then any loss is your responsibility and yours alone.

The gambling I accepted, the fraud by deception, I didn’t.

there was no fraud or deception. You’ve always known that stuff from the BL chest is a chance thing. They have to state the odds for you to be happy? JUST BUY THE kitten SKINS!

What is a scandal about people taking part in a task they know only has a certain chance?

You don’t call a scandal in a Casino when you don’t win the jackpot, so why would you here?

I was frankly suprised by the expectations of 1/3 and 1/10 that people came up with since 1/1000 seems a much more familiar number to me considering previous iterations of microtransaction shops in games with large communities.

It was not meant to be a solution. It was more of a compensation. And they really didnt have to do it either. If you spent a lot of money on keys then it’s your problem really.

Dont flood the forums just because you were greedy enough to beleive you would get rich from the chests. Thank you.

I strongly suggest you check out TF2 Mann Co. Supply Crates, which as far as I know were the first to implement this “play for the item, pay to unlock it” scheme. The odds of getting anything not specifically stated as guaranteed from the chest were gradually learned by the community to be low: 1-2%. This was without any written or numerical notification whatsoever. The unusuals did have a written modifier that stated the rarity, because the chance for getting an unusual is somewhere between .05% to .1%. I have just heard that the drop rate for items from black lions chests is between 1%-2%, so that doesn’t surprise me.

In fact, I have never come across a situation where event items coming from chests was anything other than guaranteed or <=1%. I have never encountered any system that operated in the 33% or 10% range of getting that item or nothing (there are cases where you could get a 10% chance of a specific item, but that was because you could get 9 other types of items and you were guaranteed 1 per chest).

Therefore, when I opened my first black lion chest and did not get an item, I immediately assumed the chance was somewhere around 1%. This was due to my experience with this system in the past.

If you have never been exposed to this type of thing, I’m sorry that you didn’t play the games that established these rules. This is how it always has been, though, and it is therefore reasonable assume that Arena Net did not expect people to approach this with these assumptions, since they were very familiar with the model I just described, which is the standard.

Xenlai.8694:

It was not meant to be a solution. It was more of a compensation. And they really didnt have to do it either. If you spent a lot of money on keys then it’s your problem really.

Dont flood the forums just because you were greedy enough to beleive you would get rich from the chests. Thank you.

This is the exact opposite of what my intentions were and the reaction you should have as a consumer of a product.

Based on previous knowledge of the original Guild Wars cash shop, when you bought something it was account bound, I had no intention of making any money off of the skins, and as a consumer, I have the right to complain if I feel mistreated, and to expect a reasonable solution that adequately fixes the problem. This was not compensation, compensation would have been returning our money or our keys, neither of those happens, so therefor it is not compensation. I am not asking for compensation, I am asking for a solution to fix the mess that they created that caused many many people to lose trust in their company.

How about this scenario to make it a little easier for you to grasp how I feel. You go to a restaurant and there is hair in your food, do you eat it, or do you complain? If you are dissatisfied with a service, it is your right to complain and expect a reasonable solution.

if you want to know what happens if a game puts gambling on real money in it just watch what pwi had become … i can only say thats terrifying and RUINED every game out there, they really should consider closing it and putting another kind of system inside to make themself money,

PLEASE DONT USE GAMBLING to get yourself rich devs it wont end good!

this is the process:
- small chance of getting something good
-> people buy gems with ingame coins
-> prices rock up the sky
-> encouraged grinding ingame
-> new players look at the ridicioulus high gem prizes and think wtf impossible! couse this game is not designed to grind and dont give you such high amount of coins by pure playing
-> people leave and search for another reasonable game with a stable economy! -> only rich people left
-> you put more gambling stuff inside
-> economy goes down the hill everything is impossible costly even normal gear or exotics
-> even rich people think this is just too far of the effort and leave!!

GAMBLING RUINE EVERY GAME OUT THERE STOP IT! PLEASE

@Anthsss Here’s where we hit a snag. You didn’t know the exact chance, and you `clearly have a big problem with that. So, it stands to question why on earth you bought keys in the first place in the knowledge you were obviously unhappy about not knowing the facts, right?

I’m sorry i’ve seen this argument and i don’t buy it. The only reason people are using the weak ‘they never told us the odds’ argument is because they lost. Yet before that they were happy to blow money. The reason why is because you lot don’t actually care at all, if you got benefit. You didn’t so now there’s an uproar.

EDIT: Just and edit to reinforce the fact. Fact is, you can’t complain about it being gambling after you’ve bought a ton of keys. This just proves you knew it ws a gamble yet did it anyway. Hence no backbone. Hence everyones now butthurt about it. This just shows how people will try to use situations to their advantage just because they’re in a bad position now.

I think the problem is that you’re NOT gambling. You’re buying a product. In this case, you’re buying three Mystic Potions. Everything else in the chest is a bonus on top of that.

This is more akin to going to Taco Bell and discovering that for every taco you buy, you get a coin that you can place in their little spinny drain thing for a chance to win $1000. You PURCHASED a taco and were GIVEN a coin that could win you $1000.

In this case, you PURCHASED three Mystic Potions and ANET has GIFTED you with some other random item. It’s not their problem if it’s not the gift you wanted.

I mean, I kind of agree with the sentiment. If the chances to get a skin were higher, I wouldn’t have blown a ton of gold purchasing the skins off the TP. I don’t think you have any real grounds to base a gambling lawsuit off of, though.

you people are impossible. It’s a miracle ANet even gave you a second chance at the items, you should be happy with just that. I say ANet did the right thing, and for that I will stick with the game.

kaffaljidhma.1496:

I strongly suggest you check out TF2 Mann Co. Supply Crates, which as far as I know were the first to implement this “play for the item, pay to unlock it” scheme. The odds of getting anything not specifically stated as guaranteed from the chest were gradually learned by the community to be low: 1-2%. This was without any written or numerical notification whatsoever. The unusuals did have a written modifier that stated the rarity, because the chance for getting an unusual is somewhere between .05% to .1%. I have just heard that the drop rate for items from black lions chests is between 1%-2%, so that doesn’t surprise me.

In fact, I have never come across a situation where event items coming from chests was anything other than guaranteed or <=1%. I have never encountered any system that operated in the 33% or 10% range of getting that item or nothing (there are cases where you could get a 10% chance of a specific item, but that was because you could get 9 other types of items and you were guaranteed 1 per chest).

Therefore, when I opened my first black lion chest and did not get an item, I immediately assumed the chance was somewhere around 1%. This was due to my experience with this system in the past.

If you have never been exposed to this type of thing, I’m sorry that you didn’t play the games that established these rules. This is how it always has been, though, and it is therefore reasonable assume that Arena Net did not expect people to approach this with these assumptions, since they were very familiar with the model I just described, which is the standard.

This is actually the best response to my original post, and I applaud you for it. The thing is that Guild Wars has prided itself for “not being like any other MMO” and based on the cash shop from the original guild wars, what you bought you got, and it was yours. I did know that there was a chance, but since I never played any other MMO, I felt taken advantage of due to the low drop rate when I expected it to be roughly the same as if you were to get a specific item in the black lion chest (i.e. the chance of getting a certain boost or consumable)

Rainfall.4017:

@Anthsss Here’s where we hit a snag. You didn’t know the exact chance, and you `clearly have a big problem with that. So, it stands to question why on earth you bought keys in the first place in the knowledge you were obviously unhappy about not knowing the facts, right?

I’m sorry i’ve seen this argument and i don’t buy it. The only reason people are using the weak ‘they never told us the odds’ argument is because they lost. Yet before that they were happy to blow money. The reason why is because you lot don’t actually care at all, if you got benefit. You didn’t so now there’s an uproar.

EDIT: Just and edit to reinforce the fact. Fact is, you can’t complain about it being gambling after you’ve bought a ton of keys. This just proves you knew it ws a gamble yet did it anyway. Hence no backbone. Hence everyones now butthurt about it. This just shows how people will try to use situations to their advantage just because they’re in a bad position now.

This is not it at all, the accepted and successfully functional system that had been created by the original Guild Wars was changed. Real world money should not be able to buy you anything that gives you an advantage in the game, and as a player of the original Guild Wars, I expected modest chances for something that only provides aesthetics to the game and has no actual benefit.

Edit: The dissatisfaction that I feel is not primarily from gambling, but the deception of the odds and having a tie to real world money. Gambling with a fake currency is one thing, but gambling with real world money is not fun.