Guild Wars 2

I don’t mind a difficult jumping puzzle – I don’t mind having to learn the path and jumping and timing.

However, I do not want to have to stand around waiting after each failure, doing nothing. Then go through a (brief) cutscene. Then, have to deal with all the other players on the screen obscuring what I can see for the jumping puzzle.

Its not the difficulty. Its the design. Waiting around, other players in your way. That’s what’s frustrating, not having to learn a difficult jumping puzzle.

And if a solo instance isn’t possible, well, then Anet will have to rethink this puzzle.

I totally agree. I’ve done every jump puzzle in the game but can’t complete this one because I can’t see where I need to land my jumps.

I wish they had an easy mode (just for the achievements) and a hard mode for the loot. I don’t give a crap about the loot I just want to get the emissary title.

(nevermind it sounds like all you get is boots and the rest of the set is some kind of crazy MF recipe)

Easy Mode would have no time limit and just be there to do. You could either just access the tower or the start the tower “event.”

I wonder how many people who said they liked the tower would still choose to do the hard event if they had that choice.

Yeah, I only want the achievement too.

Following the first time I completed the puzzle this morning, I was actually given a travel box to go to my actual server. I was standing next to the chest at this time. So I went ahead and clicked it. (had already opened the chest) I was ported on my server back to the bottom and then into the puzzle itself. The freakin glorious thing was…there was NO ONE there with me. I completed it 3 more times all alone. I was able to get the other chests on the way up too. I was kind of disappointed when I finally decided to leave.

I don’t know if it was a bug, a glitch, or whatever you wanna call it. But it was awesome!

Rappy.3167:

Yeah, I only want the achievement too.

Same here. Forget the boots, I got multiple exotic sets already.

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

It’s been completed as it is. Nothing needs to be changed.

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

And if you can’t see the jump? How does this even make sense?

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

You need to see more than yourself, you need to see what’s at your feet – what you’re actually jumping from, and what you’re jumping to. A quick survey of some jumping vids shows success is highly correlated with all the other players failing fairly early on.

Also, it doesn’t help when people try to intentionally grief, see the screen shot attached. I’ve also never seen so many anti-norn and charr comments in chat (note, I doing it on a human).

Seriously ANet, 9 hours of trying, with 2 different charactors to see if smaller charactors were easier than norn, and still cant get the puzzle, this puzzle was not made for people who use keyboard for movement … and was not made for us older folk who’s reflexes have slowed a little over the years. Pure rage material, not making the game enjoyable at all.

Agree with OP 100,000%. Everyone in the waiting room I’ve spoken with has said the same thing. And like Joiry said, the only times I’ve gotten close were after everyone failed early so that i could see what in the would was below my feet…

If Arena Net thinks the presence of other players adds to the sense of urgency and excitement, simply replace them with small plastic spider models on our screen. We still get the sense of a mad rush up the tower, but we might actually be able to see our character and the way we’re going.

I can get to the end 9 out of 10 times with my human in a group without charr or norn. I die 9 out of 10 times if I’m on my asura in a group with charr or norn.

This is just bad game design (and very poor testing before release), turning what could and should be a fun and exciting jumping puzzle into a frustrating mess. It’s bad enough that the camera bounces all over the place when you land on platforms (especially with asura, where the camera target position is bugged).

Rappy.3167:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

And if you can’t see the jump? How does this even make sense?

Trial and error will tell you where to jump next. It took me an hour of failing before I got it.

Esturk.2183:

Rappy.3167:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

And if you can’t see the jump? How does this even make sense?

Trial and error will tell you where to jump next. It took me an hour of failing before I got it.

I think they should put that as a tag line on the back of the GW2 box

“Hours of failing!”

Joiry.2504:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

You need to see more than yourself, you need to see what’s at your feet – what you’re actually jumping from, and what you’re jumping to. A quick survey of some jumping vids shows success is highly correlated with all the other players failing fairly early on.

Also, it doesn’t help when people try to intentionally grief, see the screen shot attached. I’ve also never seen so many anti-norn and charr comments in chat (note, I doing it on a human).

When you get it down, you don’t need to see much. All you need to remember is the direction and distance to jump. With enough attempts you will memorize each jump. I know this won’t make you feel better, but I could make that jump even with the big ’ol tree thing in the way.

Just dropping in to +1 this.
I actually was doing this so easily when it first released that I was farming ToT bags from it on my ranger. After sleeping etc, for some reason – whether it be more server load or my internet connection (probably both), latency is causing my character to differ between screen position and actual position – I’ve actually been told I’m rubberbanding all over the puzzle by other people in there. I get teleported out when landing perfect jumps etc. I think if it was instanced it would at least aid my problem a little, with my terrible Australian internet. I guess I will just have to be happy with the single completion and forget about doing it on my alts :P

- Sincerely, Sad Panda.

Chrollo.2173:

Esturk.2183:

Rappy.3167:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

And if you can’t see the jump? How does this even make sense?

Trial and error will tell you where to jump next. It took me an hour of failing before I got it.

I think they should put that as a tag line on the back of the GW2 box

“Hours of failing!”

Isn’t how you get better at anything? I can’t imagine anyone who doesn’t fail at some point.

I disagree with the making it a solo instance. ArenaNet should just do something with the graphics (like making other characters translucent) to make it easier for people to see.

As for the waiting, I just have to LOL. People are so impatient. How about this: ArenaNet could get rid of the timer, but force people to run back after they fail. Then you have nothing to complain about because you’re waiting on yourself because ArenaNet isn’t porting you back to the beginning (saving you time and causing people to whine).

Esturk.2183:

Joiry.2504:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

You need to see more than yourself, you need to see what’s at your feet – what you’re actually jumping from, and what you’re jumping to. A quick survey of some jumping vids shows success is highly correlated with all the other players failing fairly early on.

Also, it doesn’t help when people try to intentionally grief, see the screen shot attached. I’ve also never seen so many anti-norn and charr comments in chat (note, I doing it on a human).

When you get it down, you don’t need to see much. All you need to remember is the direction and distance to jump. With enough attempts you will memorize each jump. I know this won’t make you feel better, but I could make that jump even with the big ’ol tree thing in the way.

Dude, its not a matter of “feeling better” – I’m not complaining about the basic difficulty of the jumping itself. I’m pointing out that the other players are the problem (through no fault of their own – unless they’re trying to grief like I showed – I’ve seen other instances too, bringing elementals along, etc).

Trial & error learning, when you cannot even observe what went wrong (ie did I jump too early, did I land in the wrong place from the last jump, etc) is not fun, its not interesting, its not a good experience.

Timing isn’t something you just develope. There needs to be feedback – and more than just, I fell and died. The whole point of the puzzle is to learn it – and its clearly visually designed. If Anet’s intention was it to be a purely timing thing – with no visual feedback other than you fail, then they’d have made the screen black for the whole thing.

I’m not asking for anything to be made easier in the puzzle itself. I just think that a lot of the frustration people are having is the side issues. The players in the way being the major one. The other is having to stand around doing nothing – that’s one of those things that builds up in the background, adding fuel to fire each time to miss a jump.

Esturk.2183:

Chrollo.2173:

Esturk.2183:

Rappy.3167:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

And if you can’t see the jump? How does this even make sense?

Trial and error will tell you where to jump next. It took me an hour of failing before I got it.

I think they should put that as a tag line on the back of the GW2 box

“Hours of failing!”

Isn’t how you get better at anything? I can’t imagine anyone who doesn’t fail at some point.

Yes but does it really need to be hour(s) plural. I just stopped at the completionist thread and some people are saying it took them 5 hours…

Chrollo.2173:

Esturk.2183:

Chrollo.2173:

Esturk.2183:

Rappy.3167:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

And if you can’t see the jump? How does this even make sense?

Trial and error will tell you where to jump next. It took me an hour of failing before I got it.

I think they should put that as a tag line on the back of the GW2 box

“Hours of failing!”

Isn’t how you get better at anything? I can’t imagine anyone who doesn’t fail at some point.

Yes but does it really need to be hour(s) plural. I just stopped at the completionist thread and some people are saying it took them 5 hours…

So what? If it’s difficult, then you get a stronger sense of accomplishment. If you’re not good enough, you don’t deserve the achievement. Don’t cry about not being good enough, that’s what losers do. Get better.

2 days and about 8 hours later I am still unable to finish this. As I said above, I’ve completed all other jumping puzzles in this game in under 2 hours each… even the EB one which probably took the longest for me. When there’s 15 people trying to make the same jump, you can’t see where to land. You can take a leap of faith to try and land where they are, but that usually ends in me failing straight through a hole I couldn’t even see was there.

The fact that the clock tower needs to be a solo instance is incontrovertible.

I love the puzzle itself. I love the appearance, the length, the difficult, the time limit. It’s great. And yes, I’ve even completed it.

What I hate is having to wait 30+ seconds in between attempts because some arsewipe decides to summon an Oakheart every third attempt, blocking everyone’s point of view and causing a dozen people to mess up in the vital opening seconds of the puzzle.

The wait between attempts makes the frustration an order of magnitude worse. If there wasn’t a wait, I would barely be frustrated at all. I screwed up? Welp, I screwed up, lets do it again and do it better. But having to wait 30+ seconds to try again? That just amplifies the frustration to an absurd level. There’s a reason why difficult platformers like I Wanna Be The Guy, Prinny, Super Meat Boy and many others have near instantaneous respawns — the platformer genre has long since learned that the more people wait, the more they dwell on their mistakes and the more frustrated they get — and frustration is the polar opposite of fun. The key to reducing frustration is instantaneous action; never let the player wait long enough to think, instead let them right back at it and channel their anger into their play. Don’t make them stew. The Clock Tower violates that maxim so hard it is not funny.

And the fact that other players can negatively affect my experience both just by being there and also by actively griefing, spawning huge pets like the oakheart or earth elementals to block view, goes directly against Arena Net’s own design goals. Anet went to huge pains to ensure that other players could never impact your enjoyment negatively in the entire rest of the game, but in this puzzle they seem to have completely forgotten about that goal of theirs. People don’t even have to try in order to harm others’ game experience in the Clock Tower. They need only exist.

Make the puzzle a solo instance and remove the wait. That you made a difficult jumping puzzle is amazing, but the blatant disregard of rules of good design is staggering and unacceptable. I know Anet isn’t in the business of making difficult platformers so I am willing to give them the benefit of the doubt here but to ignore this now that it has been so liberally and clearly stated by nearly everyone on the forums is to almost literally tell your players to, as the kids would say it, go ‘kitt’ themselves.

Frustration is never a good thing in a game. This puzzle can be made less frustrating without making it less difficult — and therefore it should, no, MUST be done.

What is the point of acknowledging an accomplishment if the accomplishment is made meaningless? Don’t nerf this puzzle, then the achievement will be meaningless.

Joiry.2504:

Esturk.2183:

Joiry.2504:

Esturk.2183:

I understand the frustration, but you need to time the jumps based on the screen, not your character. Just remember that you are always in the middle of your screen.

You need to see more than yourself, you need to see what’s at your feet – what you’re actually jumping from, and what you’re jumping to. A quick survey of some jumping vids shows success is highly correlated with all the other players failing fairly early on.

Also, it doesn’t help when people try to intentionally grief, see the screen shot attached. I’ve also never seen so many anti-norn and charr comments in chat (note, I doing it on a human).

When you get it down, you don’t need to see much. All you need to remember is the direction and distance to jump. With enough attempts you will memorize each jump. I know this won’t make you feel better, but I could make that jump even with the big ’ol tree thing in the way.

Dude, its not a matter of “feeling better” – I’m not complaining about the basic difficulty of the jumping itself. I’m pointing out that the other players are the problem (through no fault of their own – unless they’re trying to grief like I showed – I’ve seen other instances too, bringing elementals along, etc).

Trial & error learning, when you cannot even observe what went wrong (ie did I jump too early, did I land in the wrong place from the last jump, etc) is not fun, its not interesting, its not a good experience.

Timing isn’t something you just develope. There needs to be feedback – and more than just, I fell and died. The whole point of the puzzle is to learn it – and its clearly visually designed. If Anet’s intention was it to be a purely timing thing – with no visual feedback other than you fail, then they’d have made the screen black for the whole thing.

I’m not asking for anything to be made easier in the puzzle itself. I just think that a lot of the frustration people are having is the side issues. The players in the way being the major one. The other is having to stand around doing nothing – that’s one of those things that builds up in the background, adding fuel to fire each time to miss a jump.

I was just trying to help by explaining how I completed it. I’m terrible under pressure and I’m an Asura. I had to adapt and that’s what I did.

Trying and failing has nothing to do with my argument. To put it closer to perspective. I feel I am being shot by a sniper 2 miles away and you are telling me I should have known he was there and aiming for me. 2 totally different situations.

Man, when people give advice, think about it and not dismiss it like that. Esturk and the others are giving proper advice as I too would have pointed out those method of jumping even when using a charr and if somebody were to pause awhile and think about what they wrote, it would have made sense to almost everybody. Sure, its harder in practice but that’s what people are doing to get around this added challenge in this jumping puzzle.

It’ll be totally off-putting for some people including me if it was by default a solo instance and I can probably imagine people making threads saying the game ain’t encouraging community bonding and pointing at the solo instanced jumping puzzle Halloween event as an example.

I know someone who is good at playing the TP for gold and I respected him for that but he can’t do jumping puzzles for nuts but after some advice and trials he could eventually complete it.

A 30-second wait? You could make 6 cents in that time if you were working for minimum wage. You’re totally getting ripped off!

It’s not about the time, Shostie, it’s about how it makes the puzzle an order of magnitude more frustrating. If you knew anything about game design then you’d understand that, but alas you do not.

In your example, you have a clue what is causing you to fail. In my example, there isn’t a clue. All I can tell is that there is a jump that I can’t make because I can’t see it. That is completely different from seeing said jump and failing to make it.

Khift.4706:

It’s not about the time, Shostie, it’s about how it makes the puzzle an order of magnitude more frustrating. If you knew anything about game design then you’d understand that, but alas you do not.

And I’m sure you know all about game design, right?

If people can’t wait 30 seconds, there is something wrong with them, psychologically. Maybe some medication will help. I didn’t mind the 30 second wait whenever I died (and it took me around 100 attempts to complete the puzzle). I just found a way to deal with it instead of crying on the forums about it.

I’ve never had a problem with people summoning things, and I’ve gotten disconnected half a dozen times and ended up in different groups of people. If one person doing that is a problem, then relog into a different shard. Then you can make it far enough that if you fail, you have about 5 seconds to breathe/take a sip of water before it restarts.

I have to agree with the wait being really obnoxious, it’s almost like the game was forcing me to alt tab. That’s the only thing I don’t like about the tower

Rappy.3167:

In your example, you have a clue what is causing you to fail. In my example, there isn’t a clue. All I can tell is that there is a jump that I can’t make because I can’t see it. That is completely different from seeing said jump and failing to make it.

You do have a clue, you’re too slow. If you were out in front of people you wouldn’t have them in your way. Or maybe you’re too fast. If you were slightly behind people, you could see better. Your failure to determine your exact cause of failure is just further evidence of your failure, not of any sort of inequity in the system. This jumping puzzle is about as close to a level playing field as you can get. If you can’t accept this, I can only assume that you’re the type of person who always blames others for your failures.

Shostie: “I just found a way to deal with it instead of crying on the forums about it.”

Yes, instead you’re crying about other people attempting to improve the game. Certainly you’ve got the moral high ground here.

And to answer you response seriously, if you had no issue with the situation with the wait then you would still have no issue with the situation without it. This change would therefore not impact you at all, and your input therefore has no value.

Valca.1234:

Man, when people give advice, think about it and not dismiss it like that. Esturk and the others are giving proper advice as I too would have pointed out those method of jumping even when using a charr and if somebody were to pause awhile and think about what they wrote, it would have made sense to almost everybody. Sure, its harder in practice but that’s what people are doing to get around this added challenge in this jumping puzzle.

It’ll be totally off-putting for some people including me if it was by default a solo instance and I can probably imagine people making threads saying the game ain’t encouraging community bonding and pointing at the solo instanced jumping puzzle Halloween event as an example.

I know someone who is good at playing the TP for gold and I respected him for that but he can’t do jumping puzzles for nuts but after some advice and trials he could eventually complete it.

You are completely missing the point. Sure, its possible maybe you could just do it by pure timing, and no visual feedback. But that’s clearly not what Anet intended – the puzzle would be a lot different if it was.

And I don’t see how it being solo is off-putting. The inherent difficulty remains the same. Again, this is not a request for a nerf to the puzzle itself – simply remove the other players from it.

I have to ask, if you happen to get into a low-player instance of the tower, or if it happens to have no large characters (ie norn, charr) – how is that player skill rather than dumb luck. The session I made it the furthest, and more consistently made it farther, was one in which there was a single norn and no charr – just human,sylvari and asura.

I enjoy doing the clock tower for the most part, I have now done it with two characters and have gotten good at it I would say. However my problem is that when I went to do it with my azura I could not see him. At all.
Now some Norn were there however the Azura are just that small that any size of person hides them, and if you can not see your character it makes the puzzles very hard to do.

Please Anet, help us out. Make the clock tower have smaller groups or something. Or every one the same size.

Khift.4706:

Shostie: “I just found a way to deal with it instead of crying on the forums about it.”

Yes, instead you’re crying about other people attempting to improve the game. Certainly you’ve got the moral high ground here.

And to answer you response seriously, if you had no issue with the situation with the wait then you would still have no issue with the situation without it. This change would therefore not impact you at all, and your input therefore has no value.

I would have an issue without because the only way to get rid of the wait would be to make it a solo puzzle. I don’t want it to be a solo puzzle. This game already encourages solo play enough as it is. I actually enjoyed the conversation that was going on with the people in my “group”. That’s something that would be missing if this was a solo run in an MMO.

If you want a solo platform game, there’s always Super Mario.

XiaMae.9874:

I’ve never had a problem with people summoning things, and I’ve gotten disconnected half a dozen times and ended up in different groups of people. If one person doing that is a problem, then relog into a different shard. Then you can make it far enough that if you fail, you have about 5 seconds to breathe/take a sip of water before it restarts.

I simply reported them. Minor as it may be, it’s still blatant griefing and ought to be punished, if only by a slap on the wrist.

Shostie.6435:

Khift.4706:

Shostie: “I just found a way to deal with it instead of crying on the forums about it.”

Yes, instead you’re crying about other people attempting to improve the game. Certainly you’ve got the moral high ground here.

And to answer you response seriously, if you had no issue with the situation with the wait then you would still have no issue with the situation without it. This change would therefore not impact you at all, and your input therefore has no value.

I would have an issue without because the only way to get rid of the wait would be to make it a solo puzzle. I don’t want it to be a solo puzzle. This game already encourages solo play enough as it is. I actually enjoyed the conversation that was going on with the people in my “group”. That’s something that would be missing if this was a solo run in an MMO.

If you want a solo platform game, there’s always Super Mario.

I’m amazed you managed to find enjoyment out of the constant stream of “charr take off your armor plz” and “[kitten] charr and norn are too huge go somewhere else”.

I’m so amazed I’m incredulous. In fact, I don’t believe you at all.

There’s nothing wrong with this puzzle, if anything its more fun to run it with other people. What you are pretty much asking is making it easier, why make it easier when its doable the way it is right now?

My issue with the wait is that it messes up muscle memory.

For those who’ve played Super Meat Boy, you know what I mean. You can get it down because you can try again immediately until you reach that curve. With this wait, it really messes it up, funny enough, it was because of that one darn block right after the pause for me. Everything after that was a breeze, but that block would stop me 90% of the time lol

@Regizer:
“There’s nothing wrong with this puzzle, if anything its more fun to run it with other people. What you are pretty much asking is making it easier, why make it easier when its doable the way it is right now?”

The only difficulty this could remove is fake difficulty. The majority of people still would not be able to do the puzzle — but they’d stop blaming everything else for it, because not it would be clear, and TRUE, that their inability is their fault.

Khift.4706:

I’m amazed you managed to find enjoyment out of the constant stream of “charr take off your armor plz” and “[kitten] charr and norn are too huge go somewhere else”.

I’m so amazed I’m incredulous. In fact, I don’t believe you at all.

If all else fails, call your opponent a liar.

That wasn’t happening in my group. Maybe if you stopped complaining so much you’d have more fun and people wouldn’t be angry in your presence.

The wait would be a lot more bearable if there was something to do. For example, if you could actually see the other players climbing the tower. Instead, while you’re waiting you’re staring at a completely empty tower, which is boring and kind of immersion-breaking. And you’re hoping that everyone else will fail quickly so that your wait is shorter, which is also not a very healthy “social” element.

Anyway, I agree that having a dozen fat charr / norn blocking your view of the puzzle and of your own character is horrible game design (and / or evidence of very poor testing).

Other players should either be invisible (i.e., same as a solo instance, but with almost no extra coding required, compared to the current version) or rendered as small plastic spiders, so they wouldn’t block your view (but would still add to the sense of urgency).

I always get the feeling that I’m fighting:

a) Visibility (other players blocking my view of the puzzle and of my own character)
b) Camera bugs (especially with asura, but there are some issues with all races)
c) The actual jumps and timer

For a jumping puzzle, it seems the design priorities were kind of reversed.

Shostie.6435:

Khift.4706:

I’m amazed you managed to find enjoyment out of the constant stream of “charr take off your armor plz” and “[kitten] charr and norn are too huge go somewhere else”.

I’m so amazed I’m incredulous. In fact, I don’t believe you at all.

If all else fails, call your opponent a liar.

That wasn’t happening in my group. Maybe if you stopped complaining so much you’d have more fun and people wouldn’t be angry in your presence.

Oh I believe you believe yourself. But that doesn’t mean it is true. Memory is extremely selective; experiments have been performed that show people can’t even accurately remember something shown them 20 minutes ago. The brain chooses to emphasize minor things, bringing them to the forefront, and constantly makes up details to fill the holes between the seemingly random details it chooses to remember.

In other words, you don’t even really remember what happened earlier this day, let alone when you did the jumping puzzle. When you call it up from memory, all you get is the barebones — everything else is fabricated from whole cloth by your brain. And if you want to prove me wrong? Yeah, it’ll fabricate details to fit that, not a problem at all.

What the heck are you talking about?

I think there’s some kind of glitch with merging topics. :|

Wouldn’t surprise me.

I hate how gung-ho these moderators are. These are similar topics, yes, but not the same. And the fact that there is absolutely no transparency or ability to have any kind of conversation with them makes their stringent actions seem almost fascist. Even though you know they aren’t, the inability to communicate with them makes it feel like that.