Guild Wars 2

Ok yup, that is a good point. I do miss Evennia
I guess we have to chalk it up to them not wanting too much GW1 in their GW2, which is a massive pain in the kitten because we are left with so many little loose ends that really should have been tied up.

I stand by my key points both in this and my previous forums. It should be noted that the driving influence as has been mention by others is the direction the Loremaster wish to take the story. Be that as it may – it is the truth.

However it is also the truth that the Searing tore the very fabric of society in Ascalon City and its hinterland – the lands own by the King and the noble families that make up the court of the crown of Ascalon. It would also have shattered the balance of power and caused havoc to the political alliances between the leading nobles.

Too many logical candidates have died either by the war with the Charr or the Searing itself. I hold that if the writers want to be seen to have an unbiased hand in the direction of the Lore as it relates to the humans of Ascalon – Devona MUST become Queen of Ascalon succeeding the throne directly after Adelbern, well before any move by the Charr to move against Ascalon City.

It must be noted that all humans of Ascalon see the land as rightfully theirs to hold so long as their soldiers have the military might to hold it on their behalf. That is to say that the do not accept that the Charr have better claim to the land – regardless of history. This is especially the view of the crown and the nobility.

The writers could easily write that the nobility noting the unrelenting advance of the Charr impress upon Devona to see that her duty to her country is be Queen. Devona as a loyal soldier of Ascalon would accept the will of her people and serve as the monarch of her people.

In regards to Mhenlo, Devona would request that he and Cynn return to Ascalon to serve his country and leave his posting at Shing Jea Monastery effective immediately. This request would be a personal but Royal request from Devona as reigning Queen of Ascalon.

Devona would impress on Mhenlo that Ascalon needs him as it was in dire clear and present danger of being vanquished, with massive lost of human life – as in virtual extinction. This would also confirm the new he Mhenlo would be received from Ascalon from various sources including the Order of Whispers.

It is totally unacceptable that Devona died in battle before she is able to help lead her people to redemption. Since Rurik has already been killed tragically – leaving no obvious candidate as Ascalon’s next champion. Also the siege that leads to the Foefire and the event itself cannot happen – since that would mean that the heros and heroines of human Ascalon as a group are completely incompetent and lack any sort of backbone. The Foefire was just the Lore device used to justify Charr claim to Ascalon. Seeing as its obvious that that event was blamed ultimately an a then insane Adelbern.

Devona is the only human Ascalonian that has the ability and recognition of said ability among the nobility to save human Ascalon – before its too late. And that is the deciding truth as to why she must be made Queen of Ascalon upon Adelbern’s written in death on the battlefield promptly after the return of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray to Ascalon City after their wedding.

Death on the battlefield would give Adelbern both an honourable and heroic death. A death that is just and respectable for a monarch that was highly regarded by all human Ascalonians, who’s time had arrived, and had completed his service to his people.

The events as I’ve suggested would not give humans an unevenly stronger position in the Tyria of GW2. It would merely put them on even footing with the Charr. A position that they had on their own fought for and won based their military might and magical prowse – gained through roughly a thousand years of domination of the Tyrian landscape.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

I hold that if the writers want to be seen to have an unbiased hand in the direction of the Lore as it relates to the humans of Ascalon – Devona MUST become Queen of Ascalon succeeding the throne directly after Adelbern, well before any move by the Charr to move against Ascalon City.

It must be noted that all humans of Ascalon see the land as rightfully theirs to hold so long as their soldiers have the military might to hold it on their behalf. That is to say that the do not accept that the Charr have better claim to the land – regardless of history. This is especially the view of the crown and the nobility.

It seems to me that this entire premise is based in bias toward humanity. The in-game human view is clearly bias so isn’t really relevant because both the charr and humans will hold the same view. While the out-of-game writers view simply chose another path in order to include other races. sucks for fans who wanted lore to continue in human favor but a design decision really has nothing to do with bias’ against ‘groups of people’.

“There is no racial bigotry here……..Here you are all equally worthless.” – GySgt Hartman, Senior drill Instructor

The real issue here is to “put them on even footing with the Charr”. But they didn’t just win because of

their military might and magical prowse – gained through roughly a thousand years of domination of the Tyrian landscape.

They had the backing of the gods. Without that we see the military might and magical prowse – gained through roughly a thousand years of fighting over the Tyrian landscape, on behalf of the charr is what put the charr in a higher position.

I see no reason that humanity needs to be on equal footing with the charr. There may be some nostalgia from GW1 but I think we can all agree that this is a different game with a completely different zeitgeist.

My point is not merely to insist that humans be on realtively equal footing with the Charr or any other major existing race of Tyria. Regardless of a new and different zeitgeist.

In ANY writing of a saga there is such a concept call continuity….. the flow of old into the new, the present. The world of Tyria ‘SHOULD’ be no different in that aspect. Yes many changes can and do occur over a period of 250 years. But the past is the past.

The past is not a myth. History informs the present. it guides it, helps shape it. More importantly it cannot be changed. And so I say this to clarify my point of view.

Yes there was and a clear and present need to introduced the other major races of Tyria into the Lore. And that they must be all given there appropriate place in Tyria.
This however can be done without white-washing the past. Which is what I and many believe have occurred. Where I differ is that I do not believe that Anet is merely plugging the holes in the Lore to write a story about Tyria’s present.

For if that were true why is the no mention or acknowledgement of Devona and the Ascalon’s Chosen of history? what of them? She should have had a prominent place in human history. There should be a major statue of her in Ascalon City, with smaller ones in Fort Ranik and Ebonhawke as a heroine and Queen of Ascalon.

The Priory Historians stationed in Ascalon in should make note of her and her place in human history from time to time where appropriate – as they walk around present day Ascalon City or the ruins of the old Serenity Temple when they study the site near the new Serenity Temple and the town that now surrounds it – possibly re-located to present day Fort Ranik due to the effects of the Dragonbrand on the land.

And so while in the past humans were favoured the present cannot ignore what has occurred in the still fairly recent past.

Why is there no statues of Cornwallis gracing Londons prime squares?

because 250 years is a long time. Especially when the last remnants of a fallen kingdom is a distant outpost of that kingdom. The continuity of how things ended up today is a likely possible secenario. Now can there be a statue of Devona in EH? Sure. (A-net, make it happen) But something like that is hardly big enough to warrant all the unrelated posts calling for humanity to be more powerful in the world. Which seems to be a major point in most of these posts.

edit: A problem I see here is trying to equate one broken kingdoms history with “human history”. But it is really just a fraction of “human history” in Tyria. And the remnants of that kingdom aren’t even the human focus kingdom of the game. Kryta is. So the heroes of Ascalon won’t all be focused on when the human power in Tyria is kryta.

Dustfinger read the post of mines that is prior to it (at the very least). what I wrote there is merely an attachment to it. Humanity is should not be powerful because they want to be.

Humans should still be powerful because they have adapted to change as well as help shape it.

I read it. I disagree. Humanity, should not be as powerful as a race that has overcome their dependence on gods and pioneered the way into industrialization in a new and highly effective technology. The same technology that all the other races are starting to utilize simply because of how effective it actually is.

Humanity can adapt and help shape change without being on the top tier of power. It’s a likely scenario that doesn’t go against the grain of lore continuity.

And I thought I was a die-hard Ascalonian lol.

The thing is Nic, even if your entire premise is a valid one and should hold true…it doesn’t matter. Because GW2 ANet simply doesn’t care for it. They decided long ago on the current path, and you’d have to be delusional to think they would redo all of that time and money spent developing the current storyline.

I understand you’re passionate about Ascalon, trust me I do, but it’s not going to change. If you really want to fight them on this, you need to find another avenue of protest that is more meaningful. Start your own RP Guild based in Ebonhawke. Write your own fan-fiction. Get into the game development industry and create your own world.

Or you can do what I did and just stop playing the game. Sure that’s a mere drop in the ocean to ANet, but it made me feel a little better.

Why do you hang around the forums if you don’t play the game
Do you really not like it that much?

The game? Only liked WvW, but my motherboard fried on Halloween. Oddly I found I didn’t miss playing it. I have a new comp now, but I still haven’t logged in to GW2. :/

The forums I actually enjoy more than the game now. No idea why, never did before lol.

It seems people and basically happy or resigned the current reality of the human condition in Tyria and are unable to accept any major change in direction. Im looking at you both FlamingFoxx and Dustfinger. I won’t be surprised if both of you have non-human main characters and do not have a human major character.

But I will suggest this. Even if I were to accept GW2 as a base. I would still suggest changes that may initial appear slight. I have suggested this in the past in a different branch of these forums.

I would suggest that the Separatist actually have the backing and full support of the Ebon Vanguard and that Wade Saumelsson is the true leader of both. The ‘Separatist’ are actually secretly a branch of the Ebonhawke defence force established to damage Charr positions in the Field of Ruins and beyond, as well as gathering intell on Charr movements in the area.

The Separatist are all trained soldiers of human Ascalon, that recognises Lord Samuelsson, Duke of Ebonhawke as their Lord. Their purpose is to de-stablise the Charr in East Ascalon to hide the true intent of Ebonhawke and the Ebon Vanguard. And that intent is to expand control of the Ebonhawke hinterland and establish a self-sufficient Kingdom within South East Ascalon.

Seems some players still can’t separate their love of lore from their favorite characters and races.

And you can separate your attachment to your characters and your positions and opinions in regards to Tyrian Lore? I think you’ll be surprise to learn than you are no different. In fact if anything you and others like you are worst in many ways.

Each of my various posts have clearly detailed my point of view, provided supporting material from third party sources and with reasoning that have been based on my personal interpretation of established lore, yet at every turn I meet with almost complete opposition from you both and others.

May I at this point out that I am not anti-Charr. I do believe that they as a people deserve respect and understanding. They are however the enemy of Humanity and no amount of historical re-writing can change this truth, this doom. How can the situation be otherwise? The Charr directly caused the Ascalonian and Orr Holocausts!

If the writers truely wanted grounds for peace between the two peoples, Human and Charr – Tyrian history should have had many elements of what I have suggested. This however is not the case. The die has been cast by the Anet writers and there is now no turning back. And as a result no real grounds for lasting or real peace between the two peoples.

The scale and completeness of the Holocausts in both Ascalon and Orr could not have been much more complete. What has been done cannot be undone – nore can these deeds be forgiven. The crimes committed demands vengeance without end. It seems that the majority are comfortable in the denial of these truths and are completely accepting that actual and real peace is possible with these facts.

These facts mean that even with Elder Dragons threating real and actual extinction the conflict between the two peoples cannot be permanently resolved. Merely shelved for a time after the threat is over and no later.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

And you can separate your attachment to your characters and your positions and opinions in regards to Tyrian Lore? I think you’ll be surprise to learn than you are no different. In fact if anything you and others like you are worst in many ways.

I absolutely can. But please, enlighten me on how Im worse.
…..worse than this:

“nore can these deeds be forgiven. The crimes committed demands vengeance without end. It seems that the majority are comfortable in the denial of these truths and are completely accepting that actual and real peace is possible with these facts.”

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

based on my personal interpretation of established lore, yet at every turn I meet with almost complete opposition from you both and others.

…..So if every one elses watch says the same thing but yours is the only one that’s different……

May I at this point out that I am not anti-Charr. I do believe that they as a people deserve respect and understanding. They are however the enemy of Humanity and no amount of historical re-writing can change this truth, this doom. How can the situation be otherwise? The Charr directly caused the Ascalonian and Orr Holocausts!

Do I really need to go into how the perpetrators of a holocaust aren’t doomed forever be the enemies of the victims of said holocaust? really?

Not everyone is as extreme as this. Not everyone can’t separate their love of lore from their personal characters.

Dust, I think we just have to give up. You can’t reason with the unreasonable. I think we’ve all tried far too hard to show Nicholas how things are and for some bizarre reason he doesn’t seem to understand. So yeah, I’m done It’s not worth my time.

My positions in regards to Lore ultimate comes from playing Guild Wars and continues with playing Guild Wars 2. I most certain will not change my point of view, ever.

I understand completely what both you and Dustfinger have stated and completely disagree on most points – particularly those that oppose mines. I have clearly shown the basis of every line and word of my point of view with references where available.

Dustfinger all your responses to my posts has been to express your complete disagreement – without exception. you even claim that I’m unrealistically bias in favour of the humans. Yet at no time did I ever slander or put down any of the other races. Yet you claim not to see any fault on your part.

FlamingFoxx it is you who lack the understanding of Lore to see that it is you that has been mislead/ill-informed. And yes I will no long respond to any of your posts published by either of you from this point on.

In regards to human forgiveness being considered, I personally do not see that as a possibility. The complete extinction of Orr and reducing human Ascalon to one corner of their original land leaving only one out three surviving on the Tyrian continent. That leaves little room for debate.

(Note that Cantha and Elona are separate continents to Tyria:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elona
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cantha).

In Tyria the humans have lost roughly 50% of their Pre-Searing/Cataclysm after accounting for any survivors that have made their way to safety in either Kryta of Ebonhawke. Forgiveness would require the return of lands to human control Ascalon south of the ruins of the Great Northern Wall including the land that the Black Citadel sits on – seeing as the site of the original capital of human Ascalon – Rin and the Nolani Academy.

Rin would my the site of mass human graves comparable only to Ascalon City in scale in terms of Ascalon. And together only comparable to Orr. Both human Ascalon and Orr were major nations in the world of Guild Wars. They were not by any means pockets of civilization.

Adelbern has been cast as being insane by many at the end of his doom. But to judge him and his place in human history one needs context.

In his lifetime of service to his people he has seen his land burn in the Searing causing instant genocide of a large fraction of his kingdom’s entire population. Then in quick succession he witnessed his son Rurik leave the kingdom. And finally he saw the impending doom of Ascalon City itself. Then the last bastion of human Ascalon of any significance.

To me in this context he did the only sane thing a King of Ascalon would do.

Nicholas, me and Dustfinger have both consistently pointed to how the lore actually IS. Every single one of your posts you express how you want it to be changed, but there is no lore basis for said changes…

Annnnnnnnnd I have stated that I strongly disagree by publishing my reasoned points of view to the GW public, with the current Lore as it regards to humanity from straight after the wedding of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray.

More importantly the Lore since that point in my opinion has no basis in natural progression as per the events of GW(1). I have pointed out why what I’ve suggested should replace all GW2 lore in regards to humans – as well as Charr Lore as it pertains to humans.

I am well aware of the state of affairs and the basis of such in regards to present day human Ascalon and the level of technology of humanity in Tyria currently. And all of it is not good and not comparable with the Charr or the Asurans. The humans are backward in every sense that matters.

This backwardness expends to the lack of a cohesive plan for the way forward in regards to industrial and military development and organisation. It is for this reason that I believe that a major and significant change is required post haste in Human Lore both in Ascalon and Kryta. This is clearly illustrated by the fear of the Centaurs and the extent of this threat to humanity in Kryta even after 250 years.

If Kryta has truly developed as a nation as well as military power in the past 250 years, it should have exterminated the Centaurs from any region where humanity has commercial interests – including farming and grazing land.

Kryta as a nation clearly has not developed satisfactorily. To me that speaks of gross mismanagement of national resource utility and development. It can be clearly seen that Humanity has not been allowed by the Anet writers to do anything but build a new metropolis – Divinity’s Reach. There is actually powerful grounds to state that it is technologically and industrially impossible for Kryta to even develop the technology to design the Watch Knights to say nothing of marshalling the massive amounts of resources and technical expertise to build even one.

For Kryta to be capable to design and develop the means necessary the build that Watch Knights that Queen Jennah had on display at her Jubilee celebrations, she would need Kryta to have the large industrial grade smelters to produce the metals required, she would need engineers and technical staff to operate said facilities. Kryta as needs the Research and Development Labs to design the Watch Knights in the first place. Then there is the need for testing facilities to ensure that they operate within specified requirements – this would include a security suite counter-measures against potential virus or any lost of control – fail safes. If said fail-safes were implemented, where’s the evidence of it if any?

Theses are all fundamental requirements. The Watch Knights were obviously designed to be frontline weapon systems in the defense of Kryta and by extension humanity in all of Tyria. Thus all precautions and testing are needed to be carried out before they were given ready status, and before going on public display within a major civilian area such as Divinity’s Reach.

These facts are a big part of the basis of my suggested changes to GW2 Human Lore.

Obsidian.1328:

Take Evennia, one of the most important npc’s to the Proph campaign. Last known location Ascalon. Ever seen her mentioned anywhere in this game?

Nope. But then all she was known was to have gone missing after going to have an audience with King Adelbern. Who probably had her disappeared along with the White Mantle Ambassador.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Take Evennia, one of the most important npc’s to the Proph campaign. Last known location Ascalon. Ever seen her mentioned anywhere in this game?

Nope. But then all she was known was to have gone missing after going to have an audience with King Adelbern. Who probably had her disappeared along with the White Mantle Ambassador.

Lolz! Thank you for that, I sincerely laughed.

So many Adelbern haters…props to the ANet guy who turned him into a monster.

Humans that want to get Ascalon back…

Now THAT’S funny!

Take back Ascalon???? If the events in Human Ascalon occurred the way it should have – as per my previous posts, Devona would be Queen well before the time that the final siege of Ascalon would otherwise have occurred but instead did not. This no Foefire event.

As in the humans were able to hold onto Ascalon City, Fort Ranik, and Ebonhawke (with the original Serenity Temple destroyed by first the Searing, then at a later point as a result of the Dragonbrand).

With Ascalon City being held by Queen Devona the Black Citadel could not have been built on the site of the ruin human capital of Rin/Nolani Academy with its mass of dead bodies that remained where they fell due to Charr genocide and Ascalon being a unwavering and unrelenting war zone.

I don’t see a funny scenario here, some how. But maybe that’s just me.

PS: Read some of my previous posts in forums. As I will not repeat myself more than I deem needed.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

As I will not repeat myself more than I deem needed.

AHahahahaa… oh, you’re a funny one!
_

You’ll probably be surprised to hear me say this, but I don’t hate King Adelbern.

He was an excellent and benevolent leader in his day and much beloved by his people. GW1 Ascalonian player here.

Even the guy who could legitimately challenge him for his throne based on heritage (Duke Barradin) had no qualms with leaving him the crown.

It wasn’t until after the Searing he began to slip. Many things in the game hint that he was never quite the same man after the Searing.

The charr breaking the wall and literally destroying his kingdom took a massive toll on his psyche.

And even then, this man and his people hold the charr back for many, many years after the fact. The charr still couldn’t just sweep in.

After losing his son. After being attacked by all manner of demons (Titans).

I’d wager you’d be a little crazy yourself after such things. I don’t know that I could last half as long as he did.

It doesn’t excuse him or make right what he did (Foefire), but I can see why he did what he did.

And so neither side is innocent. Charr have their genocidal run (Searing), humans had their go (Foefire).

Countless warbands were lost in the Foefire. It was a disaster beyond the scale of the Krytan slaughter.

The remaining Ascalonians in the immediate area were not only killed, but turned into restless spirits doomed to forever haunt the land claiming even more lives.

A tragedy all around, and a lingering one for the charr.

^— That’s the thing. Nicholas you need to realise that the foefire was the last resort of an insane man. At that point in time the battle against the Charr had gone on for so long and had caused so many deaths to his people that the only options left were to retreat with the others to Ebonhawke – which Adelbern was never going to do – or to resort to the drastic measures he did. In Adelberns eyes what he did saved his city from the charr, which was the most important thing to him at that stage.

You say it would have been different if Devona had been Queen? The same people would have been in Ascalon, they would have had the same army and they would have fought the same battle against Charr.

The singular difference is that Devona would most likely have had the city fall back to Ebonhawke as it was a stronger and more defensible point (although I’m hazy on how established it was at that point in time). Either way Ascalon would have been destroyed. It’s not a result of Arenanet going LETS KILL OFF THE HUMANS SO THE CHARR CAN HAVE THEIR LAND. It was just the natural progression of things.

And I’ve already told you multuiple times that Devona would never have been crowned queen. Adelbern had been elected by his people, for most of the time he was a much loved King because he was the king THEY chose. Not to mention the fact that he would NEVER have given up the crown, especially to someone who was not of the royal bloodline, and especially Devona who had witnessed the death of Rurik – Adelbern was crazy enough about his son’s death that he would most likely have held resentment for anyone who was there and didn’t stop it from happening.

Ascalon City, the last bastion of humanity should never die due the desperate action of any single person. FlamingFoxx I’m sure its apparent that you and I will never find agreement on this point. The Ascalonian Army defending Ascalon City did not have many of the heros and heroines of the campaigns of GW(1) since most have been removed from Tyrian Lore in the present day. Of the significant ones only Gwen, Keiran and Langmar kept their place in history.

Therefore to me it is reasonable to assume that Devona and her closest allies and friends did not see action in the final push of the Charr Legions on Ascalon City.

This is a key Lore point. The most important human Ascalon story point.

I believe that had what I stated come to pass: Adelbern killed in action – and leaving a power vaccum that needed to be fill by a warrior leader that had the unquestioned respect of all – Devona. She would then bring on board as many of the heros and heroines of Ascalon from all points of Tyria and beyond if needed in the case of Mhenlo and Cynn (Cantha). Thus preventing the Foefire. So CETheLucid no genocide as a direct result of a single human’s action – at that point in history.

The armies of Ascalon as described in my previous posts will be better trained and equipped and offer far more of a challenge than the one that did face the Charr as per the current historical Lore.

CETheLucid.3964:

The remaining Ascalonians in the immediate area were not only killed, but turned into restless spirits doomed to forever haunt the land claiming even more lives.

I assumed that at first too. But actually, the way ANet wrote it was that all the humans in the entire Ascalon basin were engulfed by the Foefire, not just those around Ascalon City. Ebonhawke was supposed to be just outside its radius. Heckuva spell eh?

So essentially, ANet wanted to portray Adelbern as a sort of Khilbron 2.0.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

It was just the natural progression of things.

Not at all really. Up until EotN, Ascalon was assumed to have won the war and begun the rebuilding process. This is evident in a very few off-hand remarks throughout Factions, so it was never a “natural progression” until GW2 began development and the narrative shifted.

What I never understood really was the infinite Charr numbers. The Charr army at Orr was disintegrated by Khilbron. The Charr army in Kryta was decimated by the Mursaat. The 2nd Charr assault on Ascalon was killed off by Rurik and the PC. The Charr gods(Titans) and many top Charr war leaders were killed off by Adelbern and the PC. Even allowing for another horde to magically spawn and attack Ascalon a 3rd time, the Foefire was supposed to kill off 99% of the Charr in Ascalon territory at the time.

Charr spawn timers must have instantaneous.

Obisdian in my understand of current Lore, many of the heros and heroines of Ascalon – including Devona were not in Ascalon, took no part in the final siege of Ascalon City, and did not die in Ascalon.

In fact they never existed. They were a work of human fiction to sell works of fiction to the nobility as entertainment. That I believe is what Anet has done to Devona and crew and is why we only have armour/gear with their name-sake.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Obisdian in my understand of current Lore, many of the heros and heroines of Ascalon – including Devona were not in Ascalon, took no part in the final siege of Ascalon City, and did not die in Ascalon.

In fact they never existed. They were a work of human fiction to sell works of fiction to the nobility as entertainment. That I believe is what Anet has done to Devona and crew and is why we only have armour/gear with their name-sake.

Nah, they just chose not to expand on those personalities. Because doing so would heavily promote humans relative to the other races, and that’s not something they want to do. It’s simply a result of introducing 4 other races that are supposed to be peers to humanity, nothing more. Playing down humans is simply meant to offset GW1 bias.

The gear-naming thing extends to everything in the past really, not just Ascalon. A cursory glance at the names of Ascended trinkets attests to that. ANet just likes to use those old names for gear and such for sentimental reasons, they don’t take them seriously.

Devona is not merely a “personality”, certaining not by the end of the GW(1) campaigns. She, Komir of the humans, along with the PC and some others were among the most famous figures of their age. Devona was the most famous after Adelbern, and ahead of Gwen, Langmar and Keiran.

She was not mere pushed aside for the purpose of writing a new narrative, she was wiped from all of human history in Tyria in GW2.

I can’t believe I’m arguing with this guy lol.

“Being wiped from history” and “not being mentioned” are two different things. ANet has elaborated on things in GW1 that they think would make for good story in GW2, and simply left unsaid those things that they don’t want. They’ve also shown they are willing to bend or sometimes break established paradigms in order to serve that purpose. It’s all tied in to marketing and what kind of audience they are catering to really.

Lots of companies do that. I mean, look at Star Wars. When writing Episodes I-III, Lucas knew he had his old loyal fans in the bag but he also wanted to bring in a new, younger audience. That’s why Episode I is so cheesy and light-hearted(Jar Jar anyone?). It’s a fairly common idea for popular stories to be redux’d so as to attract a new and wider audience.

Or take Harry Potter. Rowling wrote those books specifically for an audience that was growing up as the story went on. The first books are adolescent and fun, but by the end it’s very much an adult(or at least young-adult) audience she’s writing for. The tone is much darker. It’s genius really. GW2 is no different, that’s why the themes and characters are so lighthearted.

ANet just started over Nic, that’s all. And if you strictly compare sales of this game vs sales of GW1 over the same time period, by that variable alone GW2 is way more successful. And they can pat themselves on the back saying they did the right thing by catering to both a younger and wider audience. The almighty dollar wins every time.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Devona is not merely a “personality”, certaining not by the end of the GW(1) campaigns. She, Komir of the humans, along with the PC and some others were among the most famous figures of their age. Devona was the most famous after Adelbern, and ahead of Gwen, Langmar and Keiran.

She was not mere pushed aside for the purpose of writing a new narrative, she was wiped from all of human history in Tyria in GW2.

There was nothing to indicate EVER that she was a famous figure.
The people that Devona and the player character met certainly knew who they were, but it has actually been heavily indicated that outside of that, within the general populace, not a whole lot of people knew who we/they were or what was going on. A LOT of what Devona and the player character did wasn’t witnessed by anyone and a lot of what they did do had to be kept secret – take for instance their meeting Glint. Glint isn’t something you can just go telling the world about – and there is a reason Destiny’s Edge goes off to fight her thinking she is still an evil dragon champion.

Then you have to consider that their actions happened across multiple continents. Canthan’s weren’t really aware of what was going on in Tyria or Elona, and it works the same the other way around – each continent had their own problems to deal with.

Then look at the major actions within each campaign. The heroic parts take place in remote places that lack a human population. Prophecies ends on the Ring of Fire Island Chain, populated almost entirely by Mursaat. Nightfall ends in the Realm of Torment. Factions obviously is an exception, it ends in the royal palace and the actions of the heroes are certainly known. It’s actually most likely that Devona stayed in Cantha with Mhenlo and Cynn – he was offered a position there and Cynn would have stayed to marry him.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

Devona is not merely a “personality”, certaining not by the end of the GW(1) campaigns. She, Komir of the humans, along with the PC and some others were among the most famous figures of their age. Devona was the most famous after Adelbern, and ahead of Gwen, Langmar and Keiran.

She was not mere pushed aside for the purpose of writing a new narrative, she was wiped from all of human history in Tyria in GW2.

There was nothing to indicate EVER that she was a famous figure.
The people that Devona and the player character met certainly knew who they were, but it has actually been heavily indicated that outside of that, within the general populace, not a whole lot of people knew who we/they were or what was going on. A LOT of what Devona and the player character did wasn’t witnessed by anyone and a lot of what they did do had to be kept secret – take for instance their meeting Glint. Glint isn’t something you can just go telling the world about – and there is a reason Destiny’s Edge goes off to fight her thinking she is still an evil dragon champion.

Then you have to consider that their actions happened across multiple continents. Canthan’s weren’t really aware of what was going on in Tyria or Elona, and it works the same the other way around – each continent had their own problems to deal with.

Then look at the major actions within each campaign. The heroic parts take place in remote places that lack a human population. Prophecies ends on the Ring of Fire Island Chain, populated almost entirely by Mursaat. Nightfall ends in the Realm of Torment. Factions obviously is an exception, it ends in the royal palace and the actions of the heroes are certainly known. It’s actually most likely that Devona stayed in Cantha with Mhenlo and Cynn – he was offered a position there and Cynn would have stayed to marry him.

She would have been famous in Ascalon though, and I think that’s all that matters since that’s the area we’re talking about. Outside of that not so much though, you’re right about that.

I’d say the continents did have a general knowledge of events elsewhere though. Trade was certainly still going on, and ambassadors and travelers were still common. For instance, did you know that there was a Luxon and a Kurzik settlement in Kryta? ANet toyed with the idea of a “Romeo & Juliet” thing with that, but it never panned out and the project was dropped.

Yeah, Cynn would have stayed with Mhenlo in Cantha prolly. But Devona didn’t have any ties there like those two did. I could see her and Aidan going back to Ascalan tbh. For all we know Eve went to Orr…she felt at home with the dead.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Take Evennia, one of the most important npc’s to the Proph campaign. Last known location Ascalon. Ever seen her mentioned anywhere in this game?

Nope. But then all she was known was to have gone missing after going to have an audience with King Adelbern. Who probably had her disappeared along with the White Mantle Ambassador.

Lolz! Thank you for that, I sincerely laughed.

So many Adelbern haters…props to the ANet guy who turned him into a monster.

I hated Adelbern back when his reaction to Rurik going “Dad, we really should get out of this burned husk of a land” was “GTFO”.

I hated Adelbern when he basically let Evennia and Captain Langmar sit outside Ascalon City waiting and waiting and waiting for an audience next to a White Mantle Ambassador. (Yes, I do think Evennia was “disappeared” by either Adelbern or the Ambassador.)

I actually pitied Adelbern a little when he mistook Rytlock for his son and seemed all set to welcome him home. All too late, though. Then he swung right around to insane again and I sighed.

“You know what, I don’t think you get it, your majesty. The charr won. Even your attempt to deny them victory failed since all they do is use Foefire ghosts for practice drills. Your people are alive and well in places you exiled them to and you won’t even acknowledge them. So I’m gonna enjoy bashing you to discorporation with rocks.”

Lol, yeah and Rurik leaving cost him his life and Adelbern and Ascalon ended up winning the war anyway…GW2 notwithstanding. Man, I don’t get the bile caused by that scene. You don’t publicly tell the king he’s an idiot for wanting to stay and fight for his homeland, even if he is your dad. Besides, ANet even said they needed a story mechanism to get the PC over the Shiverpeaks and into Kryta. Think maybe you’re reading too much into it?

The same designers who wrote EotN and GW2 wrote her line you’re referring to: “The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.” He would rather kill us all than accept help, sound familiar? Think maybe ANet is setting up the Foefire scenario? Come on Tobs, use yer noggin.

Obsidian.1328:

Lol, yeah and Rurik leaving cost him his life and Adelbern and Ascalon ended up winning the war anyway…GW2 notwithstanding. Man, I don’t get the bile caused by that scene. You don’t publicly tell the king he’s an idiot for wanting to stay and fight for his homeland, even if he is your dad. Besides, ANet even said they needed a story mechanism to get the PC over the Shiverpeaks and into Kryta. Think maybe you’re reading too much into it?

I didn’t say Rurik handled it well. I said Adelbern flew off the handle real kitten that. And Prince Rurik had a stupid plan too, or at least one he should have seriously reconsidered on finding out the state of things in the Shiverpeaks with the Deldrimor Dwarves and Stone Summit.

Honestly, the longer I look back on Prophecies the more I want to go back in time and go “Hey, great great grandpa Tobias! Just let the titans have em all. Trust me, nothing gets better later on. May I suggest relocating to Cantha?”

The same designers who wrote EotN and GW2 wrote her line you’re referring to: “The hour of the storm is upon us, yet Adelbern still refuses to give me audience. Old fool would rather kill us all than accept help.” He would rather kill us all than accept help, sound familiar? Think maybe ANet is setting up the Foefire scenario?

At that point I’m not sure the Foefire was the only way that could be interpreted. King Adelbern was stubborn about remaining in Ascalon even when he could have done something far more disconcerting and just went over and conquered Kryta from the White Mantle and Shining Blade. He didn’t want to bend the knee to Krytans but heck, he could have just plowed them over at the end of the civil war and told the charr “sure, you can keep it for now, but I’ll be back for it”.

There were plenty of options which didn’t involve “sit in the ashes of Ascalon where we can’t get much food, the charr relentlessly hunt down anyone, and we can’t even get clean water”.

Come on Tobs, use yer noggin.

Using my head is what got me into this mess.

Bottom line, and realistically. Ascalon cannot be reclaimed as events stand now. The Foefire prevents anyone from holding territory around Ascalon City’s ruins, the charr are squatting on it with enough firepower to raze Orr if they wanted to, and then there’s the Dragonbrand.

. . . I still want my rug though. I’m going to go measure that Steelbane idiot, see if it would fit my living room.

Wuuuutt??

You think he could have conquered Kryta?? Lulz, never heard that one before. Not sure if serious.

But honestly, never heard so many peeps condone running away as the “right thing to do” instead of staying and fighting. Where’s everyone’s backbone?

Obsidian.1328:

Wuuuutt??

You think he could have conquered Kryta?? Lulz, never heard that one before. Not sure if serious.

If the Ebon Vanguard was not stationed in the North, and was used to march down to attack Kryta? Yes. I think they could have mopped through it all with our Player Characters being infused and leading the charge against the Mursaat who would have stomped the Shining Blade without our aid.

All this is predicated on the idea King Adelbern heard how rough things were in Kryta following the fulfillment of the Flameseeker Prophecies, and his hate for Kryta overrode his hate of the charr and stubbornness. However, such things are not in character for him, so it never would happen.

However, tweak his personality once his son’s death is brought to lay at his feet, word of his people in exile being treated harshly by Krytans? I do think it could be possible . . . maybe not probable . . . to get him to turn on Kryta for a round of Guild Wars, Post-Searing Edition.

But honestly, never heard so many peeps condone running away as the “right thing to do” instead of staying and fighting. Where’s everyone’s backbone?

“I think some charr went and took it out while I was running from a massive grouping on my first scouting expedition north of the Wall.”

Seriously, there was no chance of victory against the charr invasion after the Searing happened. There was only survival and making sure the legacy of the kingdom didn’t become a footnote in history almost less than Orr’s was for a time.

The only time I would have condoned staying and fighting was that first assault on Gandara when Varesh was right there and Dunkoro sounded for a retreat rather than just ending Abaddon’s lil prophet right there. Sure, we would have then gone out in a blaze of glory but I expect Nightfall would not have happened . . . for another hundred years.

Sure a Krytan invasion is a possibility. Alternately, a revitalized, Mantle-free Kryta could have done the reverse and taken over Ascalon. Tons of things are possible if ANet gave us an editing pen. Neither makes sense given GW1 story though.

It wasn’t his hatred for Charr or Kryta that drove him. It was his unwillingness to give up his people’s kingdom to Charr, Krytan, or anybody else. That’s an important distinction to make. And they did actually win against the Charr and stop the invasion, not sure why you think there was no chance of it.

So…you wouldn’t have stayed to fight at Thunderhead Keep, Battle for LA, or Dzagonur Bastion? How are those any different?

Obsidian.1328:

So…you wouldn’t have stayed to fight at Thunderhead Keep, Battle for LA, or Dzagonur Bastion? How are those any different?

Because we won those fights, and there was no winning at Gandara, and only a temporary reprieve for Ascalon after Stormcaller was blown and the charr left weaker than normal.

The battle for Thunderhead Keep, notably, was not a losing battle since infusion rendered the Mursaat less dangerous than before. Ditto for Battle of Lion’s Arch – that one was more a matter of throwing back the waves with what little defenders could be put to the front.

Dzagohur Bastion we even had the unlikely allies of the Order of Whispers show up to help, so it was less a losing battle and more a matter of holding things together until a counterstrike could be launched.

But as noted in a prior post – Ascalon was already burned and gone. It’s only just now recovering in places. Seriously.

It was burned, not gone. Where did it go? If the Charr wanted it so bad and didn’t mind living there, the humans certainly could too. You’re reaching.

But honestly, your post seems to suggest one thing: if you think you might lose, it’s ok to turn tail and run. Let me know what State you live in so I’ll know which one surrenders first if we ever get invaded.

Obsidian.1328:

It was burned, not gone. Where did it go? If the Charr wanted it so bad and didn’t mind living there, the humans certainly could too. You’re reaching.

But . . . the charr weren’t living there, they were living in the north and fighting in Ascalon. And even getting beaten into a standstill once, there was still a disparity in strength between humans of Ascalon and the charr war machine.

But honestly, your post seems to suggest one thing: if you think you might lose, it’s ok to turn tail and run. Let me know what State you live in so I’ll know which one surrenders first if we ever get invaded.

Good luck with that.

But you’re really mistaking “turning tail and running” for “realizing you’ve brought fists to a knife fight, and have gone home to get your gun”.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

It was burned, not gone. Where did it go? If the Charr wanted it so bad and didn’t mind living there, the humans certainly could too. You’re reaching.

But . . . the charr weren’t living there, they were living in the north and fighting in Ascalon. And even getting beaten into a standstill once, there was still a disparity in strength between humans of Ascalon and the charr war machine.

Aaaaand the Charr settled there right after the Foefire. Nice argument.

Also, you’re assuming there are endless Charr reinforcements, so I guess I get to do the same thing and claim there are thousands of Ascalons somewhere off the map ready to fight. /rollseyes

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

But honestly, your post seems to suggest one thing: if you think you might lose, it’s ok to turn tail and run. Let me know what State you live in so I’ll know which one surrenders first if we ever get invaded.

Good luck with that.

But you’re really mistaking “turning tail and running” for “realizing you’ve brought fists to a knife fight, and have gone home to get your gun”.

I’d still stay with my fists, as should anyone who’s defending their home. Really dude? You need to go drink some deer blood.

Obsidian.1328:

Aaaaand the Charr settled there right after the Foefire. Nice argument.

And like I said, the land was incredibly hostile and in the time of King Adelbern it simply was not supporting plant life that well at all. Charr don’t need plants for food, humans however do.

Seriously, I don’t get how you’re not grasping this. Ascalon after the Searing through the time of the War in Kryta was simply not going to sustain farming and the pressure on Ascalon was keeping them from doing any sort of agriculture. I do wonder sometimes where they got their food from even for that long.

( Of course, this is a video game so they don’t need to eat or drink, or anything else. All they need to stand there and say “we’re barely hanging on!” over and over until the servers go down. Pheh . . . )

Also, you’re assuming there are endless Charr reinforcements, so I guess I get to do the same thing and claim there are thousands of Ascalons somewhere off the map ready to fight. /rollseyes

Endless? No. More than there were Ascalonian people? Yes. We had a census taken which sort of proved it.

I’d still stay with my fists, as should anyone who’s defending their home. Really dude? You need to go drink some deer blood.

If we’re talking about my house then you had better not presume fists are all I have, hm? I was not talking about my house though, I was talking about fighting where I don’t have an advantage. If need be, find a place where you can make one.

Besides, honestly, the first thing I’d do in a home invasion is, of course, kill myself. Wrap a laundry line around my neck and jump out a window. Or trip down the stairs carrying a glass vase.

Lol, carnivores is your reason? I say, good sir, you simply must come up with something better. You’re gettin a lot of points for originality and creativity though. At any rate, Ascalon doesn’t exist in a vacuum, there’s still trade going on. Probably much to your disbelief, because of some of your answers here, the Ascalonians didn’t just lay down and wait to die after the Searing.

If you really think that census truly reflects the actual, intended population of GW Ascalon you need a realsies check. Very little of what you see in that game, or this one, or 95% of any mmo for that matter, is supposed to be a realistic expression. Too bad all those houses in Kaineng City are all walled off and no one can get to them…everyone has to sleep on the streets! The nerve of that Emperor!! Suspension of disbelief…learn it.

Your last part is sarcasm.

The PC and all the npc henchmen and women had shared many a campfire together and shared their stories, their hopes, their dreams, the failings and stories of those that had past on. Many of these people would have passed these campfire stories to others they come to meet and of course to their children for those fortunate enough.

In this way the children of Ascalon and Kryta learn of the heros and heroines of the past. many of the lesser henchs would have been recognised as local heros/heroines themselves. Note that the Norn built many a statue for Jora in Hoelbrak and in Wayfarer’s Foothills and the Charr remember Pyre Fierceshot in a statue in the Plains of Ashford. Yet…..

There is not a single marker at all for Devona anywhere in Tyria. She was a daughter and soldier of Rin born into a warrior’s family who’s father was a member of Ascalon’s Chosen – Adelbern’s guild. She would never end her days anywhere but in Ascalon. It is there that she would have instructed her friends to bury her or to spread her ashes in the ruins of Rin or in the foothills nearest it.

Her friends would pass the story of her service to Tyria, to Ascalon to all whenever they share a gathering of celebration or rememberance. This would be the way that the people of Ebonhawke would come to know and remember her heroism. Thus her fame would last as long as there are humans in Ascalon.

The full measure of her fame would depend on which version of Lore you accept. The current or the version I’ve suggested. At the very least she would have been famous in Ebonhawke, since those that know the stories of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray also know those of Devona.

So why no marker for Devona?

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The PC and all the npc henchmen and women had shared many a campfire together and shared their stories, their hopes, their dreams, the failings and stories of those that had past on. Many of these people would have passed these campfire stories to others they come to meet and of course to their children for those fortunate enough.

In this way the children of Ascalon and Kryta learn of the heros and heroines of the past. many of the lesser henchs would have been recognised as local heros/heroines themselves. Note that the Norn built many a statue for Jora in Hoelbrak and in Wayfarer’s Foothills and the Charr remember Pyre Fierceshot in a statue in the Plains of Ashford. Yet…..

There is not a single marker at all for Devona anywhere in Tyria. She was a daughter and soldier of Rin born into a warrior’s family who’s father was a member of Ascalon’s Chosen – Adelbern’s guild. She would never end her days anywhere but in Ascalon. It is there that she would have instructed her friends to bury her or to spread her ashes in the ruins of Rin or in the foothills nearest it.

Her friends would pass the story of her service to Tyria, to Ascalon to all whenever they share a gathering of celebration or rememberance. This would be the way that the people of Ebonhawke would come to know and remember her heroism. Thus her fame would last as long as there are humans in Ascalon.

The full measure of her fame would depend on which version of Lore you accept. The current or the version I’ve suggested. At the very least she would have been famous in Ebonhawke, since those that know the stories of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray also know those of Devona.

So why no marker for Devona?

Do you honestly think she would have moved back to Ascalon when two of her closest friends were staying to live in Cantha? She left Ascalon because it was falling, she accompanied Rurik because she agreed with his thinking regarding getting help from and relocating to Kryta. Ascalon doesn’t have monuments to the heroes of that time period because they were in a period of war and incredible losses. The exception are those who helped establish Ebonhawke such as Gwen and Kieran etc.

The story of Jora and the Nornbear is important to Norn culture and Norn put a lot of emphasis on celebrating those who have made a great achievement and shown great strength – they also weren’t in the midst of a war with a race who had already decimated their home city.

Your obsession with Devona is also unfounded. You’re ignoring Aiden, Eve, Mhenlo and Cynn, all of whom were equally as important to the GW storyline. Yes Devona was the daughter of Mordaki who fought alongside Adelbern in the Guild Wars, but Cynn was a noble of Surmia – neither of them have a claim to the throne. Neither of them have anything remotely close to a claim.

The people of Ascalon also wouldn’t know a lot of their deeds. You say they would have sat around campfires and told stories – but to who? All of their deeds were done OUTSIDE of Ascalon. So who was telling Ascalon of their accomplishments? Krytans – Adelbern wouldn’t let a Krytan set foot in Ascalon, he absolutely hated them. So how would anyone in Ascalon hear word of what was going on? They wouldn’t.

Obsidian.1328:

Lol, carnivores is your reason? I say, good sir, you simply must come up with something better. You’re gettin a lot of points for originality and creativity though. At any rate, Ascalon doesn’t exist in a vacuum, there’s still trade going on. Probably much to your disbelief, because of some of your answers here, the Ascalonians didn’t just lay down and wait to die after the Searing.

No, you’re just deflecting my points without reading them now, while I’m trying to explain the stuff which all points to “Ascalon wasn’t going to survive much longer than it did”.

- The charr are carnivores, so not being able to plant and tend crops isn’t as important as getting a herd of something somewhere. Also, they sorta kinda tended to eat what they killed from what I heard. Strange fact, humans are made of meat.

- The lands lacked the capacity for humans to start work for necessary food, especially with charr raiding. Which we know was still going on (as an excuse for there to still be charr present after the campaign and titan quest chain). We know many of the farms near Duke Barradin’s Estate were burned completely and unable to offer workable land right away. We know Ashford was just plain gone.

- There were more charr than humans, as could be evidenced by a headcount of the charr just walking around in many of the areas. Not to mention it’s clear there were whole groups in the north, enough for there to be an actual revolution started against the Flame Legion shaman caste. (This revolution is probably why they didn’t go back immediately.) So either there’s more based on the fact you have several dozen in one area of Ascalon, or there’s more based on the impressions you can have when going north with the Ebon Vanguard (whose sole tactic against the charr in the north is raiding style warfare due to there being more charr than humans).

- We know there’s no trade because the Shiverpeaks were in a civil war keeping the humans from trading with the dwarves (who needed the supplies and were losing to the Stone Summit before we came to kill Dagnar Stonepate). And Kryta was incredibly busy with that minor, tiny little undead issue, followed by the White Mantle . . . basically, we know they didn’t have trading partners who could do more than smuggle in a little at a time. Probably what Nicholas was doing most of the time he was moving around, but it can’t be assumed . . . only alluded to.

[quote[
If you really think that census truly reflects the actual, intended population of GW Ascalon you need a realsies check. Very little of what you see in that game, or this one, or 95% of any mmo for that matter, is supposed to be a realistic expression. Too bad all those houses in Kaineng City are all walled off and no one can get to them…everyone has to sleep on the streets! The nerve of that Emperor!! Suspension of disbelief…learn it.
[/quote]

Oooh, oooh I thought I wasn’t allowed to play that card! The census as not a simple headcount we had to do as a character, it was something we had to recover as part of a quest and has been looked over.

And I find it just . . . hilarious . . . I bring up the census and suddenly we’re not supposed to be taking things all that accurate when it’s shown in the game. Which was half my point about how many charr versus Ascalonian humans there were, and most of my point about how they couldn’t function at all.

Your last part is sarcasm.

Funny you think that, but who am I to argue? Clearly you know me well enough to judge.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

There is not a single marker at all for Devona anywhere in Tyria. She was a daughter and soldier of Rin born into a warrior’s family who’s father was a member of Ascalon’s Chosen – Adelbern’s guild. She would never end her days anywhere but in Ascalon. It is there that she would have instructed her friends to bury her or to spread her ashes in the ruins of Rin or in the foothills nearest it.

There’s not a single marker at all for Hayda either, or Saidra, or Olias. There’s none for Lady Althea. There’s no grave for Captain Langmar.

The full measure of her fame would depend on which version of Lore you accept. The current or the version I’ve suggested. At the very least she would have been famous in Ebonhawke, since those that know the stories of Gwen and Keiran Thackeray also know those of Devona.

Devona was not part of the detachment which was sent to Ebonhawke to reinforce it, nor did she die defending it like the Thackerays did. It’s a large unknown where she wound up, and I’m not even sure if we know where Eve or Aidan wound up.

So why no marker for Devona?

Because it’s unknown where she and her companions wound up after the Thackeray marriage.

Obsidian.1328:

I assumed that at first too. But actually, the way ANet wrote it was that all the humans in the entire Ascalon basin were engulfed by the Foefire, not just those around Ascalon City. Ebonhawke was supposed to be just outside its radius. Heckuva spell eh?

No kidding? Yikes. That’s a lot bigger than I thought! It’s funny though.

If you do the events over in Iron Marches by what used to be the Piken Square area from GW1, we’re told the ghosts there don’t really bother anyone unless you mess with their stuff.

A big event there is a Flame Legion effort to get some kind of ancient warhorn out there to stir all the ghosts to action. Essentially to make the ghosts do their bidding.

One priory charr there advocates simply putting the stuff back where it belongs (their graves) to put the spirits to rest, and this works.

Obsidian.1328:

So essentially, ANet wanted to portray Adelbern as a sort of Khilbron 2.0.

Possibly. But even compared to Khilbron, I still see Adlebern as the ‘better’ man.

Khilbron was always a shady character even if you think the best of his intentions and he went from shady to outright unapologetic megalomaniac.

King Adelbern was a noble hero who with tragedy after tragedy and much time became a tragic villain.

I know some people who could relate to Shiro being ‘tricked’ by a demon to do the unspeakable. I feel Adelbern more so than Shiro fits the bill of a tragic villian.

Shiro, if tricked, just wasn’t a very bright man… very, very impulsive on very little, enough to kill somebody over.

And he went from somewhat sympathetic to angry angry all the time.

Even the gods saw fit to make Shiro Tagachi an envoy given his circumstances and that wasn’t good enough for him.

King Adelbern offered Foefire as a very last resort, as the charr overran the city slaughtering everybody.

I’ve seen people offer ideas that a surrender to the charr would have been a better alternative both in Orr and in Ascalon, but that’s not viable.

For the longest time, charr were not known for their mercy.

Free of the Flame Legion’s theocracy, this did change over time, slowly. But in the time of Orr and Ascalon’s war with the charr? No. Surrender really wasn’t an option.

King Adelbern’s “solution” wasn’t any better mind you, but I get the reasoning behind it. A bit like M.A.D. or the Sampson Option.

The man was crazy enough to do it and so he did.

Obsidian.1328:

Charr spawn timers must have instantaneous.

Charr breed like rabbits. Problem solved. ;3