Guild Wars 2

To be fair Shiro was still under Abbadons influence when he was turned into an Envoy, so it’s not so much that it wasn’t good enough, more just that once Abbadon tricked him the first time he became a different person.

I’m really not sure what to think when it comes to Adelbern. He was presented with opportunities to get help from Kryta, he was presented with opportunities to move his people to the safety (relatively) of Kryta, he was presented with the opportunity to lead his people south and abandon Ascalon. A lot of people considered Ascalon to be doomed, it was in bad shape. He chose to forgo any help or assistance and he considered holding Ascalon more important than getting his people to safety. That’s not admirable, that’s horrific.

FlamingFoxx its clear that you just skim through my post. And have missed many points that I have made. As to who would pass on these stories of Devona all the henchmen and women that have when to quest with the PC in all the campaigns.

Also if you actually have read my previous post most times I would have referred to her inner circle at least once and usually more. When I say her friends and allies they are not limited to Mhenlo, Cynn, Eve and Aidan, I’m also including Livia and the others including but not exclusively: Stefan, Alesia, Orion, Little Tom, Claude, Reyna and Dunham – I have also made this clear – by say all her friends and allies – these I mention here are included as the allies of the PC and/or Devona. And their inclusion would have been obvious if you did more than skim my posts. They were not designed to be skimmed. Its clear you cannot allow yourself to agree with me on major points of difference with your opinion and view point which is clearly pro- Charr and anti-Human.

This is clear to me but you have hidden this from most others but not from me. As I do read you post word for word, including your clear Charr bias. This is seen by your obviously opposition against for example any change in Lore that would in combination with other movements of history in Kryta and Ascalon promote and or strengthen humanity as a whole.

The humans of Ascalon who settled in Ebonhawke would have carried in their hearts all who have made a noteable mark in the in the war against the Charr in Ascalon. The whole war – not just those that contributed to the move and establishment of their new home.

I’m not pro-Charr or anti-human… I really like all of the races equally and I can understand why Arenanet wrote their stories the way they did and I can see that they make logical sense….

I LOVE humans in gW. I love their lore because it is rich and beautiful and realistic – that means that when things go bad they go bad. If everything was always positive then it wouldn’t be very realistic at all, real life is not like that. There are constantly wars going on in the real world, constant loss, constant triumph. I loved Ascalon in prophecies because you could tell it was doomed after the searing. There was something really poignant about watching the last bastion of the kingdom of Ascalon, but I understood what you dont seem to understand – it was exactly that, the LAST bastion of a once powerful kingdom. They were beaten down and battered from the Searing, all of their cities had been destroyed, their capital city had been destroyed, the wall had been breached – there was no way for Ascalon to come back from that. It just doesn’t happen, they didn’t have the military power and they weren’t willing to get aid from Kryta. Also considering the Krytan civil war happened it’s unlikely Kryta would have been in a position to give them aid.

You seem not to notice that almost everything I say is looking at lore that is right in front of us during Guild Wars 1. We know what the situation was in Ascalon, we know what the situation was in Kryta…

You show the problem right there in your latest comment “any change in lore”, THAT is what I am arguing against – a change in lore. What you have been consistently arguing FOR is for the lore to be changed. But do you have any idea how ridiculous it would be to just go back and change the games lore? That would completely necessitate changing everything about GW2, and it wouldn’t make any sense.

The way things are were set up by Arenanet starting with prophecies, all of the lore you see in game is the result of careful planning that goes back quite a long time in history. Stop asking for changes that would literally break the game.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

To be fair Shiro was still under Abbadons influence when he was turned into an Envoy, so it’s not so much that it wasn’t good enough, more just that once Abbadon tricked him the first time he became a different person.

I want to think being dead, he was freed of any such taint, but for the fact that Abbadon was a god (fallen one at this point), you probably have a point there.

I think I do remember something being said about anyone being touched by Abbadon being consigned to the realm of torment regardless of being good or bad.

Shiro would be more to be pitied.

That didn’t dissuade the punishment meted out to him if it was known to the gods that this was the reason why Shiro did what he did in his afterlife, so I’m suspicious.

That’s either not true or else the gods are cruel and unjust.

Perhaps his sentence to being an envoy in the afterlife was an act of mercy, but for Abbadons corruption being so thorough, Shiro was just gone and doomed to act as he did.

Doesn’t change the fact that Shrio Tagachi always had anger issues, so he’s always been prone to a bit of emotional trickery.

But yikes. Sucks to be the guy some dead god wants to mess with. Cruel fate…

FlamingFoxx.1305:

He chose to forgo any help or assistance and he considered holding Ascalon more important than getting his people to safety. That’s not admirable, that’s horrific.

He was a proud, stubborn old king. He was human. Fighting for your nation and people isn’t horrific. It’s noble and patriotic.

The charr did (and will do if need be) the same thing, so they’re also ‘horrible’ by that definition.

If you agree, you must then agree that humanity as a whole is also likewise ‘horrible’. We do that all the time.

Charr and humans are really quite identical on this front. That said, Prince Rurik shared your (wiser) thinking there.

For his noble actions and ultimate sacrifice, many Ascalonians were saved and have lived on to this day in relative peace and prosperity in Kryta.

For King Adelbern’s work, humanity has carved out not only survival but a place for humanity in Ascalon.

The Ebon Vanguard and so Ebonhawke was the seed of King Adelbern’s planting and the harvest of Gwen and Kerian and the other founding heroes of Ebonhawke.

That humanity has a place in Ascalon at all anymore is indirectly by King Adelbern’s work pre-M.A.D. option.

Both men did great things. Prince Rurik died a hero. King Adelbern lived long enough to see himself become the villain.

He’s a more tragic one in my book.

Tobias

/sigh

• Yes, humans are made of meat. So are Charr btw, and apparently make great coats. You think humans are above eating Charr? Regardless, there was still inter-continental trade and communication going on after the Searing, as alluded to in An Empire Divided.

• Yes, there were more Charr around the zones than humans…they were a mob. There were also more Devourers and Grawl around. It would kind of suck for gameplay if the friendly npc’s outnumbered the mobs. Don’t confuse game mechanics with rpg mechanics.

• As for the census, yes, you’re not supposed to take everything you see in the game as fact. ANet assumes a level of intelligence for its playerbase…perhaps too low here? For instance, there are 3 measly humans in the entire zone of Stingray Strand. Do you really think that’s supposed to be thought of as the actual population of that area? If you do, I can’t help you.

The point is, Ascalon was never supposed to have assumed to have lost the war until GW2 production begun. Why? Because it was over. ANet saw an opportunity to convert a beat-up human kingdom to a new playable race and they ran with it, nothing more. If not, then why did ANet bother writing this:
“And so we reach the present day[1072AE]. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

I agree with everything you’ve saidCETheLucid, I think the funny thing to me is that Shiro was made to become an Envoy as punishment xD.
After the events of Factions he was sent to the Realm of Torment and became one of Abaddon’s generals. I assume that when we once again defeated him his soul died for good.

CETheLucid.3964:

King Adelbern lived long enough to see himself become the villain.

I see what you did there!

CETheLucid.3964:

Charr breed like rabbits. Problem solved. ;3

Perhaps, but if that’s true…why did it take them 900 years to raise an army?

Obsidian.1328:

Tobias

/sigh

This is almost as much music to my ears as asura death cries. Exquisite.

• Yes, humans are made of meat. So are Charr btw, and apparently make great coats. You think humans are above eating Charr? Regardless, there was still inter-continental trade and communication going on after the Searing, as alluded to in An Empire Divided.

Yes, I think humans are above eating charr meat. I also think seeking intercontinental trade requires a port and trade route of some sort. Something Ascalon doesn’t have . . .

• Yes, there were more Charr around the zones than humans…they were a mob. There were also more Devourers and Grawl around. It would kind of suck for gameplay if the friendly npc’s outnumbered the mobs. Don’t confuse game mechanics with rpg mechanics.

Oh wait, you think I was talking overall about the number of enemies? Sheesh, you didn’t read carefully. There are implications of charr raiding groups sticking around, there are implications of a lot more charr when you travel north and start messing with Pyre’s rebellion.

That crowd cheering at the speech of the Fierce warband had to come from somewhere and they weren’t there when you walked through the mission. Figure it out – there’s more charr somewhere and more than there are defenders of Ascalon.

• As for the census, yes, you’re not supposed to take everything you see in the game as fact. ANet assumes a level of intelligence for its playerbase…perhaps too low here? For instance, there are 3 measly humans in the entire zone of Stingray Strand. Do you really think that’s supposed to be thought of as the actual population of that area? If you do, I can’t help you.

Extrapolating “the census existed” to “there are only three humans in Stingray Strand” is silly, don’t you think? The census existed, along with a fan work.

Counting the Fallen – “I almost said I was delighted, but one look at this list…so many lost. If we took a census today, the list wouldn’t be half this long.” Obviously Ascalon has been greatly reduced in population.

I’m sure you can see that. If you don’t, then I can’t help you either.

The point is, Ascalon was never supposed to have assumed to have lost the war until GW2 production begun. Why? Because it was over. ANet saw an opportunity to convert a beat-up human kingdom to a new playable race and they ran with it, nothing more. If not, then why did ANet bother writing this:
“And so we reach the present day[1072AE]. At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”

ANet didn’t write that, Loremaster Ermenred wrote it. They’ve been very careful to iterate over and over that just because an NPC says something as though it is fact, it’s not always true. Considering some of the stuff White Mantle members said before you hook up with the Shining Blade? Yeah.

“History never lies. historians, however . . . "

Obsidian.1328:

CETheLucid.3964:

King Adelbern lived long enough to see himself become the villain.

I see what you did there!

CETheLucid.3964:

Charr breed like rabbits. Problem solved. ;3

Perhaps, but if that’s true…why did it take them 900 years to raise an army?

It didn’t take them 900 years to raise an army, it took them 200. The Flame Legion discovered the Titans in Hrangmer in approximately the year 870 (Mouvelian calendar of course) 200 years before the Searing. You have to remember that before this point the Charr had been warring between themselves internally, it was only once the Charr discovered the Titans that they united under the Flame Legion to war against humanity. As to why it took them 200 years after that point – it’s possible that the Titans, being creations of Abbadon, were clued into his future plans and didn’t want the Charr to act until such a time as Abbadon was strong enough to assert his influence on the world – thus bringing about the Flameseeker prophecies.

Also Tobias is absolutely right with that last part. Anet has stated OVER AND OVER that NPC’s don’t know everything. Look at the Movement of the World, a LOT of the information in that is wrong. There was never any evidence to support that Ascalon was doing any better, in fact there was evidence only to support the opposite. GW1’s storylines involving Ascalon always painted it that the Charr threat was much greater than anyone had ever realised. That’s part of the reason the player character goes WITH Rurik to Kryta.

Tobius

So just to be clear, Empire Divided, including this…

This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.

…is not to be taken as fact, but as a fallible opinion piece within the story?

Just trying to be clear here.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobius

So just to be clear, Empire Divided, including this…

This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.

…is not to be taken as fact, but as a fallible opinion piece within the story?

Just trying to be clear here.

Again, they’ve been rather consistent with this. Anything which is written by, or talked about by NPCs and not developers is told from the perspective of the NPC and is likely to contain things either not 100% factual or possibly lacking crucial information which would change the conclusions.

This was covered a while ago, mostly as a way of band-aiding lore differentials between “what we initially released” and “what we expanded into”. Notably, Lieutenant Langmar didn’t exist at all until the Vanguard Quests were implemented, despite it being obvious she should be somewhere. Also recall how there was always reference to Five Gods instead of six until Nightfall was over. Then there’s the cleansing of records of one bratty little prince so it was never known for sure he existed at all . . . the expanded talk of Dhuum’s existence . . .

Foxx

I’ll grant you that, they were supposed to infighting up until then.

The reason the PC went with Rurik to Kryta was to progress the campaign over there. Ever read Rurik’s dialogue? Every other word is about how he won’t rest until all the Charr are dead in Ascalon. ANet needed a gameplay mechanism to get the PC over there and keep the campaign story going. So they wrote up a fight with his dad, got him excommunicated, and voila…you leave Ascalon behind with for a legit reason.

All of those campaign zones on the map were originally designed with an open-world GvG in mind. They switched it to strict PvE late in development, brought in a single writer(Jess Lebow) to write the entirety of the PvE story, and filled in the map with campaign missions. Keep in mind they had like 2 dozen peeps working on this at the time.

Obsidian.1328:

Foxx

I’ll grant you that, they were supposed to infighting up until then.

The reason the PC went with Rurik to Kryta was to progress the campaign over there. Ever read Rurik’s dialogue? Every other word is about how he won’t rest until all the Charr are dead in Ascalon. ANet needed a gameplay mechanism to get the PC over there and keep the campaign story going. So they wrote up a fight with his dad, got him excommunicated, and voila…you leave Ascalon behind with for a legit reason.

All of those campaign zones on the map were originally designed with an open-world GvG in mind. They switched it to strict PvE late in development, brought in a single writer(Jess Lebow) to write the entirety of the PvE story, and filled in the map with campaign missions. Keep in mind they had like 2 dozen peeps working on this at the time.

Yeah, Prophecies really was the worst as far as the story goes. It’s why I sigh when people go “Guild Wars 1 had a far superior story”, because they must not be meaning Prophecies. The story parts are barely connected until about halfway through, after “The Wilds”. Even then there’s just a lot of real thin threads connecting things.

. . . and the next person complaining about the Living Story dialogue needs to sit through the third and fourth missions in Ascalon to hear/read Rurik’s speeches.

(Want one other weird head-scratching lore nugget? So the Fiery Dragon Sword of Adelbern and Rurik are supposedly a pair of powerful blades linked together . . . where did the one the Captain Osric have show up from?)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Tobius

So just to be clear, Empire Divided, including this…

This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.

…is not to be taken as fact, but as a fallible opinion piece within the story?

Just trying to be clear here.

Again, they’ve been rather consistent with this. Anything which is written by, or talked about by NPCs and not developers is told from the perspective of the NPC and is likely to contain things either not 100% factual or possibly lacking crucial information which would change the conclusions.

This was covered a while ago, mostly as a way of band-aiding lore differentials between “what we initially released” and “what we expanded into”. Notably, Lieutenant Langmar didn’t exist at all until the Vanguard Quests were implemented, despite it being obvious she should be somewhere. Also recall how there was always reference to Five Gods instead of six until Nightfall was over. Then there’s the cleansing of records of one bratty little prince so it was never known for sure he existed at all . . . the expanded talk of Dhuum’s existence . . .

First of all, if you don’t see your first quote as one humongus excuse on the devs part to basically give them a free hand with whatever they want, then I feel sorry for you. Really? You bought into that whole hog huh. The reason they said that was precisely so they could do whatever they want with the story and lore. And have.

And yes, there were only five gods until Nightfall…or at the very earliest late Factions. Kinda throws a wrench into the whole “Abaddon was controlling the Charr…that’s why they went after Orr and Kryta too” argument. I find it amazing that later additions and editions to the writing is taken as retroactive fact by peeps…sheesh. Frankly, I’m embarrassed as an historian.

Obsidian.1328:

Tobius

So just to be clear, Empire Divided, including this…

This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.

…is not to be taken as fact, but as a fallible opinion piece within the story?

Just trying to be clear here.

“based on historical fact as interpreted by the author”
That is the key piece of information there.

We can look at information given by Glint at the end of prophecies e.g.
“Ascalon’s great walls and soldiers have withered in Rurik’s absence. An old king dons his armor, heavy with time, to fight a battle he cannot win. It is his will alone that keeps Ascalon alive.”
We can look at what Adelbern himself says:
“All that I have left is this antiquated set of armor and the remains of this tattered kingdom.”

Also can I just point out that Ermenred’s dialogue in Lions Arch makes him out to be quite senile… And you want to take HIS word as fact xD?

Not to mention that while he is writing around Ascalon he is IN Cantha… Not a short journey considering Ascalon is landlocked and Cantha lies across the ocean – we have no idea when he was last in Ascalon and we have no idea who he got his information from and how reliable it was. Not to mention that he is writing in 1072, which is the year Prophecies takes place in – so it is entirely possible that he is writing before the attack by Bonfazz Burntfur on the Great Northern Wall.

You two are too fast I can’t keep up

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Foxx

I’ll grant you that, they were supposed to infighting up until then.

The reason the PC went with Rurik to Kryta was to progress the campaign over there. Ever read Rurik’s dialogue? Every other word is about how he won’t rest until all the Charr are dead in Ascalon. ANet needed a gameplay mechanism to get the PC over there and keep the campaign story going. So they wrote up a fight with his dad, got him excommunicated, and voila…you leave Ascalon behind with for a legit reason.

All of those campaign zones on the map were originally designed with an open-world GvG in mind. They switched it to strict PvE late in development, brought in a single writer(Jess Lebow) to write the entirety of the PvE story, and filled in the map with campaign missions. Keep in mind they had like 2 dozen peeps working on this at the time.

Yeah, Prophecies really was the worst as far as the story goes. It’s why I sigh when people go “Guild Wars 1 had a far superior story”, because they must not be meaning Prophecies. The story parts are barely connected until about halfway through, after “The Wilds”. Even then there’s just a lot of real thin threads connecting things.

. . . and the next person complaining about the Living Story dialogue needs to sit through the third and fourth missions in Ascalon to hear/read Rurik’s speeches.

(Want one other weird head-scratching lore nugget? So the Fiery Dragon Sword of Adelbern and Rurik are supposedly a pair of powerful blades linked together . . . where did the one the Captain Osric have show up from?)

Holy crap…I think I agree with your whole post. 0.0

I thought I saw that skin around more than just those 3 though, I could be wrong.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I agree with everything you’ve saidCETheLucid, I think the funny thing to me is that Shiro was made to become an Envoy as punishment xD.
After the events of Factions he was sent to the Realm of Torment and became one of Abaddon’s generals. I assume that when we once again defeated him his soul died for good.

If there’s any justice among the gods, hopefully he’s found rest. Not Hall of Heroes worthy obviously, but it’s not his fault he won the “who’s Abbadon gonna troll today” lottery.

Obsidian.1328:

Perhaps, but if that’s true…why did it take them 900 years to raise an army?

Well at the rate they’re poppin’ em’ out, it’s a very big army obviously!

But then you have to factor in, not all charr are created equal. Some become cattle farmers, some are simple foot soldiers that aren’t much against hero or god-tier humans, and others are legendary and eat god-tier humans for breakfast with a hero for brunch.

And actually such legendary charr usually met their end at the hands of… humans. Other times, at the hands of their own kind for their in-fighting.

Not all those charr that exist (quite a number) become a force on the battlefield so much as a support to the legions in other ways.

The charr you do meet on the battlefield are the best of the best and trained for that job from their childhood.

You won’t find the same challenge in a charr who was raised as a rancher or blacksmith, though all charr have at least some battle proficiency.

Ergo, a charr sniper VS a charr cattle rancher who knows how to work a gun. This of course worked/s the other way too, or generally applies to all the races to some extent.

In our position in time though, charr are still a massive force in the world of Tyria. Humanity is just hanging in there.

Charr have a much larger pool to work with than humanity. Though humanity with it’s smaller pool still has a grossly disproportionate amount of heroic blood going for it.

I want to think all the PCs from GW1 contributed to that. Those frisky devils.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Obsidian.1328:

Tobius

So just to be clear, Empire Divided, including this…

This text is not a work of fiction, but is based on historical fact as interpreted by the author. Historical facts have been revised based upon new information acquired by the author between 1022 AE and 1072 AE.

…is not to be taken as fact, but as a fallible opinion piece within the story?

Just trying to be clear here.

“based on historical fact as interpreted by the author”
That is the key piece of information there.

We can look at information given by Glint at the end of prophecies e.g.
“Ascalon’s great walls and soldiers have withered in Rurik’s absence. An old king dons his armor, heavy with time, to fight a battle he cannot win. It is his will alone that keeps Ascalon alive.”
We can look at what Adelbern himself says:
“All that I have left is this antiquated set of armor and the remains of this tattered kingdom.”

Also can I just point out that Ermenred’s dialogue in Lions Arch makes him out to be quite senile… And you want to take HIS word as fact xD?

Not to mention that while he is writing around Ascalon he is IN Cantha… Not a short journey considering Ascalon is landlocked and Cantha lies across the ocean – we have no idea when he was last in Ascalon and we have no idea who he got his information from and how reliable it was. Not to mention that he is writing in 1072, which is the year Prophecies takes place in – so it is entirely possible that he is writing before the attack by Bonfazz Burntfur on the Great Northern Wall.

Good points, but two things:

• those “Titan missions” given by Glint were not in the original campaign, they were added much later around the time of Nightfall and EotN. So… lots of GW2 minds at work here with that.

• If you keep reading on in Empire Divided, he mentions that Togo is waiting for the hero of the Flameseeker Prophecies(you) to arrive to help him…so all those Proph events are over by this time.

CETheLucid.3964:

Well at the rate they’re poppin’ em’ out, it’s a very big army obviously!

I lol’d at that. :P

@Obsidian: Just thought I’d point out that Charr are obligate carnivores. They can get all the nutrients they need by eating meat (they can apparently eat vegetables and spices, but they do so purely for flavour rather than nutritional need).

Humans on the other hand cannot subsist on a pure meat diet. I certainly don’t doubt that humans would have eaten Charr meat in times of desperation (also, meat from most carnivores tends to taste worse than that of herbivores), but it would not have been a viable long-term food source. They would still need to acquire cereals, fruit and vegetables, all of which would have been in very short supply, what with Adelbern refusing any aid from Kryta, and trade from the Shiverpeaks imperilled by the Dwarves’ civil war.

Not to mention that with Ascalon so devastated, their economy would have been reduced to rubble. They wouldn’t have been able to keep buying supplies from outside merchants forever.

Ironically, if Adelbern had let Rurik go with some of the survivors and set up settlements in Kryta, they MIGHT have been able to drag the war out to a stalemate if the new settlements continued to funnel weapons, soldiers and money back to Ascalon. This is, after all, exactly what happened with Ebonhawke after the Asura gate was built and Kryta continued to pour in money and resources to support them until the Charr finally agreed to a ceasefire. (Granted, that was due more to Kralkatorrik showing up and teaching everybody who was boss, but still!)

Zax

Hey Zax! Now we just need Dust or Drax to show up. =D

One very, very important question though…

If Charr eat spices, can they eat a teaspoon of cinnamon and not spit it out? o.0

Obsidian.1328:

First of all, if you don’t see your first quote as one humongus excuse on the devs part to basically give them a free hand with whatever they want, then I feel sorry for you. Really? You bought into that whole hog huh. The reason they said that was precisely so they could do whatever they want with the story and lore. And have.

Of course I realize that’s what it’s for. I’ve seen the excuse dozens of times and largely when talking about an IP where writing staff either expand, change, or thin out over time. I cut my teeth trying to make sense of Forgotten Realms lore and that’s when I started drinking.

And if you stop you’ll realize it’s not invalid just because of that reason. History books are written not by the victors, but by the survivors – it’s seen even in real life. Especially when trying to pin down things like Roman Emperors, for which there are little accounts which don’t have some sort of agenda behind their writing.

Loremaster Ermerend has a vested interest in glorifying Ascalon, painting them as a “we’re still relevant” world power. Reality sets in if you realize they’re still fighting off charr years later when Nightfall happens. Even if the bulk of the battle is won, there’s still a battlefront and Ascalon is still under attack. It’s not at peace and it’s not being helped.

And yes, there were only five gods until Nightfall…or at the very earliest late Factions. Kinda throws a wrench into the whole “Abaddon was controlling the Charr…that’s why they went after Orr and Kryta too” argument. I find it amazing that later additions and editions to the writing is taken as retroactive fact by peeps…sheesh. Frankly, I’m embarrassed as an historian.

It doesn’t throw a wrench into it, you’re just misinterpreting it. Abaddon’s titans appeared to the charr and lent the shaman caste power and position. They weren’t under his control so much as they got given a means to break the Wall and get across . . . after that, the shaman caste was to blame for pushing the charr onwards.

I don’t think Abaddon had to drive the charr to Orr for the Vizier to get to work. I think there was a lot of speed chess on those plans as the situation went from “charr get set loose on the human kingdoms” to “well that went wildly successful, now what?”.

Obsidian.1328:

• those “Titan missions” given by Glint were not in the original campaign, they were added much later around the time of Nightfall and EotN. So… lots of GW2 minds at work here with that.

Uhhh I was pretty sure that the Vision of Glint was there before the release of Nightfall, granted my memory is not the best – but still, it was put in the game one year after release (it was most definitely there before the release of EoTN), that’s a lot closer to the original lore of prophecies than the lore of GW2 which would have gone through a lot of iterations during the development process, especially that early on in the development process.

I do follow this thread (as I do for all lore-related threads in the racial forums), but usually I don’t have much to add that people haven’t said already.

I’m not sure if Charr can eat a spoon of cinnamon, but my guess is that most would rather suffocate trying to choke it down rather than admit failure. It’s a tragic statistic of Charr legion hazing rituals every year. XD

I think that Charr tastebuds are much less discerning than humans, in any case. The fact that they love using lots of hot spices in their cooking suggests to me that they can’t taste subtle flavours very well and therefore compensate for it by using lots of strong, pungent spices.

Tobius

Alright, one big factor though. RL historians are trying to find a truth outside themselves. Meaning, the truth exists whether or not they write about it or not. That’s not the same with a game-world. The “truth” of the story is whatever is in the original authors mind. Period. Because without that original thought, it wouldn’t exist at all. The truth is completely subjective to whoever created it.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

Obsidian.1328:

• those “Titan missions” given by Glint were not in the original campaign, they were added much later around the time of Nightfall and EotN. So… lots of GW2 minds at work here with that.

Uhhh I was pretty sure that the Vision of Glint was there before the release of Nightfall, granted my memory is not the best – but still, it was put in the game one year after release (it was most definitely there before the release of EoTN), that’s a lot closer to the original lore of prophecies than the lore of GW2 which would have gone through a lot of iterations during the development process, especially that early on in the development process.

You’re absolutely right, I concede that. Mixed up my thoughts, I was thinking WiK stuff for some reason. Just found a link that puts it at summer of ’05.

Where did Nik go?

Obsidian.1328:

Tobius

Alright, one big factor though. RL historians are trying to find a truth outside themselves. Meaning, the truth exists whether or not they write about it or not. That’s not the same with a game-world. The “truth” of the story is whatever is in the original authors mind. Period. Because without that original thought, it wouldn’t exist at all. The truth is completely subjective to whoever created it.

Well if the “truth” is so completely mutable, it doesn’t really matter what was said at any time, ever . . .

If that’s really the case, why are we even discussing the lore at all? Ascalon was always doomed, and will always have been doomed until a lore writer decides otherwise.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Obsidian.1328:

Tobius

Alright, one big factor though. RL historians are trying to find a truth outside themselves. Meaning, the truth exists whether or not they write about it or not. That’s not the same with a game-world. The “truth” of the story is whatever is in the original authors mind. Period. Because without that original thought, it wouldn’t exist at all. The truth is completely subjective to whoever created it.

Well if the “truth” is so completely mutable, it doesn’t really matter what was said at any time, ever . . .

Well I always assumed the validity of fictional “truth” relies on the original author and not really any author following, simply because it was his/her idea to begin with and not anyone else’s. Is that wrong? :/

Authorship is 9/10ths of the lore! =D

If that’s really the case, why are we even discussing the lore at all? Ascalon was always doomed, and will always have been doomed until a lore writer decides otherwise.

That pretty much sums up my beef with Anet right there. :P

Obsidian.1328:

That pretty much sums up my beef with Anet right there. :P

And I’d be with you if it wasn’t common. I’ve reserved all my hate towards lore problems for Wizards of the Coast and the whole “Spellplague” thing.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If that’s really the case, why are we even discussing the lore at all? Ascalon was always doomed, and will always have been doomed until a lore writer decides otherwise.

Actually, yes. Pretty much. But a human definition of a doomed Ascalon and a charr definition of a doomed Ascalon are very different.

Ascalon is far from doomed. It’s a charr nation now. They won, they have their ancestral home back. Greater Ascalon is theirs.

Good times for them!

Humans have consolidation that they both survived the ordeal and yet thrive in the land, in spite of the charr’s best efforts to eradicate them.

They earned a place in Ascalon and even have charr recognition of this fact. Ebonhawke is conceded to the humans.

With any luck, the ordeal is over. A further consolidation would be the humans, Queen Jennah with Logan Thackery and Rytlock Brimstone and the charr legions ending the Ascalonian ghost affair by uniting Sohothin and Magdaer.

No more ghosts, no more human threat (Separtist/Renegade dwindling yahoos not withstanding)… just Flame Legion and dragons overall.

Humans officially gain the friendship of the charr against whatever will come. The living Ascalonians of today can “go home” if they so choose.

Of course it could happen any other way. Who can say but the writers? It’ll be interesting to watch develop.

I’m not complaining about it so far, it’s very well done with a few caveats aside.

I’ve expressed as much before. So if you generally hate the direction overall and I like it, we’re not gonna see eye to eye on that.

My opinion about these things isn’t any better than yours, nor yours any better than mine. It comes down to what actually happens.

That’s cannon, for better or for worse. You’ll end up liking it or not so much.

CETheLucid.3964:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

If that’s really the case, why are we even discussing the lore at all? Ascalon was always doomed, and will always have been doomed until a lore writer decides otherwise.

Actually, yes. Pretty much. But a human definition of a doomed Ascalon and a charr definition of a doomed Ascalon are very different.

The context of discussion there was the between Prophecies and GW2 Ascalon.

That’s canon, for better or for worse. You’ll end up liking it or not so much.

Don’t really care enough about it to make a fuss about it getting fixed. But on the other hand, can’t wait for an opportunity to “take it back for the glorious Ascalonian people”.

Either that or let me resume weapons tests on the asuran catapult teams. I mean, with the asuran catapult teams.

FlamingFoxx with this piece you show yourself as utterly confused and obviously unaware that you have actually accepted my assessment of you. You liked seeing the Humans of Ascalon were doomed in GW-Prophecies and that this apparent theme was carried into GW2. Your complete this by saying you are against any significant change in Lore. I now have solid proof that you are – anti-human and pro-charr. Since GW2 is pro-charr when it comes to humans vs charr. This fact is obvious to all.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I’m not pro-Charr or anti-human… I really like all of the races equally and I can understand why Arenanet wrote their stories the way they did and I can see that they make logical sense….

I LOVE humans in gW. I love their lore because it is rich and beautiful and realistic – that means that when things go bad they go bad. If everything was always positive then it wouldn’t be very realistic at all, real life is not like that. There are constantly wars going on in the real world, constant loss, constant triumph. I loved Ascalon in prophecies because you could tell it was doomed after the searing. There was something really poignant about watching the last bastion of the kingdom of Ascalon, but I understood what you dont seem to understand – it was exactly that, the LAST bastion of a once powerful kingdom. They were beaten down and battered from the Searing, all of their cities had been destroyed, their capital city had been destroyed, the wall had been breached – there was no way for Ascalon to come back from that. It just doesn’t happen, they didn’t have the military power and they weren’t willing to get aid from Kryta. Also considering the Krytan civil war happened it’s unlikely Kryta would have been in a position to give them aid.

You seem not to notice that almost everything I say is looking at lore that is right in front of us during Guild Wars 1. We know what the situation was in Ascalon, we know what the situation was in Kryta…

You show the problem right there in your latest comment “any change in lore”, THAT is what I am arguing against – a change in lore. What you have been consistently arguing FOR is for the lore to be changed. But do you have any idea how ridiculous it would be to just go back and change the games lore? That would completely necessitate changing everything about GW2, and it wouldn’t make any sense.

The way things are were set up by Arenanet starting with prophecies, all of the lore you see in game is the result of careful planning that goes back quite a long time in history. Stop asking for changes that would literally break the game.

The question now is how do the humans progress and survive beyond the events of GW2 as in now stands? I don’t see any positives – the Watch Knight momentarily seem promising and were swiftly taken away – as per the events of the Queen’s Jubilee incident.

Since most support without question the negative moves against humanity in both Ascalon and Kryta – without question. As it stands Humanity face certain extinction in Tyria, they cannot defend themselves against any threat – complete at the mercy of what the writers have in store for them – all negative, all full of doom – with no hope of redemption without non-human intervention.

CETheLucid.3964:

They won, they have their ancestral home back. Greater Ascalon is theirs.

You realize they literally just changed that a few months ago right?

Obsidian.1328:

CETheLucid.3964:

They won, they have their ancestral home back. Greater Ascalon is theirs.

You realize they literally just changed that a few months ago right?

Changed what? I think I missed something there.

Yeah Obsidian please clarify
If you mean with the release of GW2? Then that’s over a year ago – rather than months…

Calling Ascalon the Charr “ancestral homeland” is what I meant there. It was part of an info bio on the Charr on the wiki homepage a little while ago. Dustfinger saw it and linked it in one of our debates. There was never any mention of that before.

Obsidian.1328:

Calling Ascalon the Charr “ancestral homeland” is what I meant there. It was part of an info bio on the Charr on the wiki homepage a little while ago. Dustfinger saw it and linked it in one of our debates. There was never any mention of that before.

Wiki pages can be edited by anyone, so it’s crucial to have sources

Yes, I am arguing a minor point against “Ascalon was once charr homelands”. Mostly because I’m still wanting to having a Living Story rebuilding Ascalon City . . .

You can’t really rebuild ascalon though, that would sort of destroy the Charr storyline – the Ghosts of Ascalon are one of the their main enemies (as well as the Flame Legion), and the area is about the dynamic between the three. If you fix the foefire and rebuild Ascalon it kind of screws things up a little bit.

Look at the singular instance we have of the living story causing a REAL impact on the in game world – they built a Krait tower. But where did they build it, on top of an existing Krait infested lake.

The living story is limited in what it can do to the existing world by the original storyline. They have to maintain aspects of the world in order for it to be consistent with the personal story for any new players going through it or returning to it – so you’re more likely to see humans expand below Ebonhawke or something in a new zone – less likely to see the foefire lifted.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

You can’t really rebuild ascalon though, that would sort of destroy the Charr storyline – the Ghosts of Ascalon are one of the their main enemies (as well as the Flame Legion), and the area is about the dynamic between the three. If you fix the foefire and rebuild Ascalon it kind of screws things up a little bit.

Who said anything about fixing the Foefire? Just have humans show up and go “okay, this is our mess, we’ll clean it up, thanks”. Then start rebuilding under an agreement the charr leave them alone, they leave the charr alone, and the Foefire effects become more contained.

. . . not totally contained, but more contained.

The living story is limited in what it can do to the existing world by the original storyline. They have to maintain aspects of the world in order for it to be consistent with the personal story for any new players going through it or returning to it – so you’re more likely to see humans expand below Ebonhawke or something in a new zone – less likely to see the foefire lifted.

They’ve said they’re looking at ways of getting around that though, if I recall.

Oops, I meant the GW2.com Charr race page, not the wiki. It’s on there right now if you go look at it. No idea when they added it but it had to be not very long ago. The debate with Dust and I is actually in this thread, page 3. Kind of funny how he dropped that bomb on me lol.

I think it’s possible it could be done, but I highly doubt they do. For many of the reasons Foxx pointed out and more. It would mess up too many things methinks.

Obsidian.1328:

Oops, I meant the GW2.com Charr race page, not the wiki. It’s on there right now if you go look at it. No idea when they added it but it had to be not very long ago.

I think it’s possible it could be done, but I highly doubt they do. For many of the reasons Foxx pointed out and more. It would mess up too many things methinks.

Welp, back to my other plan testing siege machines on asura.

I mean, with asura.

Obsidian.1328:

You realize they literally just changed that a few months ago right?

Nah, that’s been established in the game since launch.

Rytlock Brimstone goes into the short version of it in the AC dungeon. That’s just a case of the print catching up to the reality.

If people want to argue that before that small blurb was added that it wasn’t somehow official, meh. Have fun with that.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Welp, back to my other plan testing siege machines on asura.

I mean, with asura.

(Pics courtesy of Uber.7623)

CETheLucid.3964:

Obsidian.1328:

You realize they literally just changed that a few months ago right?

Nah, that’s been established in the game since launch.

Rytlock Brimstone goes into the short version of it in the AC dungeon. That’s just a case of the print catching up to the reality.

Uhh…no? Rytlock’s speech was simply, “this land used to be ours, then Humans came and built Ascalon on top of it.” Everyone already knew that since GW1 Proph, that was nothing new. What is new is the contention Ascalon is their homeland. There’s a giant area on the map northeast of Ascalon in GW1 that says in big, bright letters “Charr Homelands.”

It’s important because of cultural identity. Ascalon as the those human’s homeland and not the Charr’s is a huge difference between both claiming it as such. Because it gives the humans a much more legitimate claim to the land. ANet basically went out of its way to retcon that part of the lore to make the Charr seem justified in being there. Why? Probably because they are tired of players kittening and moaning over it and want to move on already. It’s lazy and backhanded writing.

Does it matter? Not to most players, no. But it just goes to show how little they care for established paradigms and historic precedents when writing the lore. I’m betting they get frustrated with GW1 lore at times and wish they didn’t have to deal with it at all, it gets in the way of their modern zeitgeist of Tyria, as Dustfinger likes to put it.

Last thing: if Ascalon is the “ancestral homeland” of the Charr, what did they used to call it then?

Obsidian.1328:

CETheLucid.3964:

Obsidian.1328:

You realize they literally just changed that a few months ago right?

Nah, that’s been established in the game since launch.

Rytlock Brimstone goes into the short version of it in the AC dungeon. That’s just a case of the print catching up to the reality.

Uhh…no? Rytlock’s speech was simply, “this land used to be ours, then Humans came and built Ascalon on top of it.” Everyone already knew that since GW1 Proph, that was nothing new. What is new is the contention Ascalon is their homeland. There’s a giant area on the map northeast of Ascalon in GW1 that says in big, bright letters “Charr Homelands.”

They could have more than one homeland, you know . . . also a minor difference between “homeland” and “ancestral homeland” – my homeland is one place (Great Lakes region of the US), my ancestral homeland would be somewhere over in Ireland or Germany. Depending on which side of the family I want to call my ancestors today. The same for a significant portion of the US population, come to think of it. As much as it’s their homeland, their ancestral lands would be elsewhere.

It’s important because of cultural identity. Ascalon as the those human’s homeland and not the Charr’s is a huge difference between both claiming it as such. Because it gives the humans a much more legitimate claim to the land. ANet basically went out of its way to retcon that part of the lore to make the Charr seem justified in being there. Why? Probably because they are tired of players kittening and moaning over it and want to move on already. It’s lazy and backhanded writing.

Or maybe they wanted to avoid the appearance of a Palestine/Israel analogue in their fantasy world? We got plenty of that anyway elsewhere.

Does it matter? Not to most players, no. But it just goes to show how little they care for established paradigms and historic precedents when writing the lore. I’m betting they get frustrated with GW1 lore at times and wish they didn’t have to deal with it at all, it gets in the way of their modern zeitgeist of Tyria, as Dustfinger likes to put it.

I write my own stories and my own campaigns for tabletop games and I myself get kittened off at stuff I established before as lore and canon and change it. Especially when I get a new sourcebook and go “this would work great, oh wait, how would they have always been able to use psionics if it was never used before . . . crap”.

Last thing: if Ascalon is the “ancestral homeland” of the Charr, what did they used to call it then?

The litterbox.

I know right, they 1-upped humans by making it “ancestral”…sly move ANet, sly move.

If they wanted to avoid a Palestine/Israeli analogue, they shouldn’t have written the Charr to take over Ascalon in the first place. That analogue already existed, and they just made it a lot worse with that, it’s their own fault.

You change the lore in your table-top games if it doesn’t suit you? Yikes. That’s low man…that’s low.

Litterbox…I have to admit that was funny on so many levels.

Obsidian.1328:

You change the lore in your table-top games if it doesn’t suit you? Yikes. That’s low man…that’s low.

Depends on the lore change. I generally get around major revisions by going “okay, new world and new continuity”. Anything minor? I don’t sweat it. The game is there to be enjoyable, not to be my magnum opus, and definitely not to become a continuity snarl of lines I can’t cross.

On the other hand, if it’s something a player brought to me and is integral to their character’s existence? Set in stone, polished, and stuck on a pillar somewhere. I don’t mess with their character histories once established, I only mess with anything I . . . personally . . . wrote, and doesn’t directly impact their characters.

So, bottom line? If the lore and continuity gets in the way of players having a good time? Time for the corrective fluid. If it’s too major I need to basically tear out the guts of a setting to make it work? New sheet of hex paper, new set of index cards to keep track of place names and notes, and new campaign idea. I think I’m up to five now, though I’m not sure how many count since some of them have crossed over via planar travel.

If I wanted to write something where continuity was more important? I’d not be doing D&D. (Seriously, check out how often they go and torpedo their own lore. I refuse to take my continuity more seriously than the people writing the setting books.)

I’m actually not sure if the Charr even HAVE a name for their lands. Even modern Charr refer to their home as “Iron Legion territory”, or “Blood Legion homelands”. Whenever they refer to Ascalon, they refer to it as the fallen human kingdom, not as the name of the area they now inhabit.

It may be that the Charr do not so much name the places they hold as simply have a concept in their minds that “this is our land”. They give places names only so far as to make it easier for navigation and mapping. Charr land is just Charr land, if that makes any sense.

The Charr do have names for areas though, they clearly did in GW1 (Grothmar Wardowns, Scanoth Valley, Dalada Uplands) – all of those are clearly Charr words given they hold an obvious resemblance to Hrangmer (the word, not the place).

I assume they the lands we know as Ascalon did once have names – I’ve personally thought that one of the big reasons Arenanet never introduced Charr names for the areas around Ascalon is because it would confuse/annoy players of GW1 who would just look at the map and go ‘No! That’s Ascalon’.

I this most are lost as to the real purpose of this ill-fashioned question. The question that we all would like answered is not how we want the way forward, but how Anet would write the way forward for humanity in Tyria.

Its clear that Ascalon will remain Charr land outside of the lands surrounding the Stronghold of Ebonhawke. Its clear that humans are not allowed by the writers to have a major industrial base in Kryta – as this would threaten Anet’s beloved Charr.

Its clear that Anet wants us to accept that the human condition will remain essentially unchanged and that human relevance lies elsewhere such as the lands to its south – Cantha maybe and Elona.

But in Tyria no change. Tyrian humanity is doomed to unachieved doomed to Anets requirement of “balance” among the races. This is against the most basic law of nature itself.

The only constant in Nature is change. Change is inevitable, it is unstoppable, it cannot be slowed – like time itself, since time is a facet of nature. But of course that is not allowed in humanity’s future in Tyria.