Guild Wars 2

Obsidian.1328:

Nah, I’m denying parts that are wrong. Just like I’ll never take Peter Jackson’s version of LotR as truth because of all random changes he made to it. And he had full rights to it too, just like this one. It’s called being a purist. Official doesn’t mean a kitten thing more than they are legally sanctioned to write b.s.

So, what you’re saying is . . . “I don’t agree, so let’s pretend it’s not official”? In that case, I think we’re done here.

It cannot be “wrong” if it is the official lore for the game and continuity, as sanctioned by the company. It’s different from New Line’s “Middle Earth films”, because those are clearly adaptations rather than a different book. But if, in theory, Tolkein (or his estate) had written those things, or given a stamp of approval on the scripts? Would you still be saying these are not “the real” Lord of the Rings?

Bottom line? Just because you don’t agree with the direction went in, doesn’t mean the lore/story didn’t happen. Trying to call it “wrong” or to continue to insist it isn’t what is actually there is . . . delusion, fan-canon, and cannot be used to discuss actual lore in the game.

If you are going to discuss lore with any serious inclinations, then you have a responsibility to have the integrity to include things you do not like rather than discard them. Otherwise we might as well start writing fanfiction.

Nothing wrong with that – I’d definitely consider writing some where Ascalon was reclaimed by those still loyal to the fallen nation. Or where it never fell to the charr to the level it did and the Foefire never happened. But that cannot, and should not, ever be held on the same level as canon developed by the people in charge.

Charr AGREED to have a traty. CHARR. AGREED. TO NOT. FIGHT!

Peeeeopleeeee.

If charr can agree to not fight, mankind should too. Or maybe poor little, so-hurt humies can’t hold their nerves and anger? Oh, that’s so animal-like! :<

Ascalon belongs to the Iron Legion. Leave it that way. Should I remind you, that humans were desperately looking for that treaty? I WONDER WHY…

Tarreth.8914:

Should I remind you, that humans were desperately looking for that treaty? I WONDER WHY…

Not some of the people living in Ebonhawke, they weren’t looking for a treaty and they were fine if they had to hole up in there against the legions’ siege. After all, Ebonhawke has never fallen to the charr.

It’s been said Queen Jennah was the one who pushed for it, mostly to take some pressure off of Ebonhawke and the humans living there. After all, she has bigger things to worry about closer to home, so it was either cut Ebonhawke loose or . . . double down on protecting them by taking their war out of the equation in the only way they could.

That’s true. I don’t like those from Ebonhawke. They’re stubborn as hell.

Tarreth.8914:

That’s true. I don’t like those from Ebonhawke. They’re stubborn as hell.

In some ways it’s admirable to cling to your convictions, and not to compromise. On the other hand, it’s not as admirable to keep a fight going because of what happened long before anyone participating in it was conceived . . .

Ebonhawke stands, and even though it’s not asked they forget or forgive, it is asked to consider the future rather than the past.

Alas, the real world is proof people don’t let go all that easily.

You know whats funny? The Charr actually never won a major conflict (war) against humanity.

-Ascalon:
They only laid waste to ascalon because the Titans gave them a magic nuke. All the Charr had to do was clean up the survivors that were left. And they couldn’t even do that because of the foefire.

-Orr:
We blew it up before they could take it, and took their entire army with us.

-Ebonhawke:
Even with all their military might, they couldn’t take a small fortress for at least 200 years.

(edited for wrong use of words)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

But if, in theory, Tolkein (or his estate) had written those things, or given a stamp of approval on the scripts? Would you still be saying these are not “the real” Lord of the Rings?

Depends.

If it was only his estate, then definitely.

If it was Tolkien himself? Tbh, still yes. I really don’t see how anyone could take the movies as an honest rendition of the books, even with the man himself backing it.

For the same reasons no one should take young Anakin seriously in the newer Star Wars. Hardly anyone would say he’s an accurate portrayal of a young, and still good, Vader. Lucas be dammed.

There are tons of examples in art where later works by the same author don’t do the original justice. For instance, Leon Uris’ two books on Ireland: Trinity and Redemption. Both use the same setting, deal with the same subject matter, and use a lot of the same characters. But they are vastly different in their message and tone. Trinity is a quintessential work on the Irish character, and a supremely adept depiction of turn-of-the-century(1900) Ireland. By contrast, Redemption, written 20 years later as a sequel, while also very well written, pales in comparison. It’s subject matter and style are in sharp contrast to the dour and serious narrative of its predecessor, and it even goes so far as to alter established roles of pre-defined characters. The two books don’t connect well at all. Uris was near his own death at the time of Redemption, and sometimes old age tends to warp a man’s mind. <cough> Kubrick <cough>

Works on the same subject by the same author, given the right circumstances, can be at odds with each other. Even Hemingway was notorious in his later life for trying to recapture the brilliance of his youthful writing. He couldn’t do it btw. The Guild Wars 2 story is just another worldly example in that long line of failed attempts to recapture the soul and essence of an earlier narrative. But then again, they weren’t really trying to recapture it were they?

I’m trying to approach the question posed in this forum from the perspective of my human characters.

If peace negotiations between the charr and humanity were to break down (which seems unlikely as long as the Elder Dragons present a unifying threat), I think both of my human characters would be conflicted.

Duncan, my human guardian, is an honorary seraph and nobleman. He is loyal to Queen Jennah and Kryta, but his primary concern is defending Tyria from the Elder Dragons, whom he sees as the greatest threat to Kryta’s ultimate survival. That is why he joined The Vigil, where he served under General Almorra Soulkeeper (a charr), and eventually joined The Pact. Although it would pain Duncan greatly to abandon his queen if peace negotiations with the charr were to break down, he would ultimately do whatever it takes to end the threat of the Elder Dragons once and for all, including working along side his race’s age old enemies to bring the dragons down and abandoning Ascalon to the charr. If the Elder Dragons were no longer a threat, Duncan would serve wherever his queen needed him including Ascalon.

Bethany, my human ranger, would be somewhat less conflicted than Duncan if peace negotiations were to break down between the charr and humanity. Although she was born in Kryta, her parents were Ascalonian refugees, and a major turning point in her life was the discovery that her parents were secretly separatists working to undermine peace efforts in Ebon Hawke, a revelation that led to the arrest of her father. Bethany was raised to be proud of her Ascalonian heritage without ever having lived in Ascalon, and grew up hearing horror stories about the charr, the Searing, and the Foefire. Growing up in Kryta, Bethany never experienced a charr occupation first-hand like her parents had and never really met a charr face-to-face until she was older. After discovering the truth about her parents, Bethany had trouble trusting anyone for quite some time. She eventually developed a mutually respectful relationship with Logan Thackery after he helped her uncover the truth about her sister Deborah and, under his guidance, was introduced to the Order of Whispers, which gave her life renewed purpose. As an agent of the Order of Whispers, Bethany was introduced to Tybalt Leftpaw, a charr who eventually became her true friend and mentor. Tybalt’s friendship had a lasting impact on Bethany and helped her to trust again. She learned to judge people on their individual merits and actions, not by where they come from. If peace negotiations were to break down between the charr and humanity, Bethany would most likely play both sides as an agent of the Order of Whispers. She feels no special allegiance to Kryta or Ascalon.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

You know whats funny? The Charr actually never won a major battle against humanity.

-Ascalon:
They only laid waste to ascalon because the Titans gave them a magic nuke. All the Charr had to do was clean up the survivors that were left. And they couldn’t even do that because of the foefire.

-Orr:
We blew it up before they could take it, and took their entire army with us.

-Ebonhawke:
Even with all their military might, they couldn’t take a small fortress for at least 200 years.

Let’s not forget Kryta.

-Kryta: Saul D’alessio and the White Mantle defeated the Charr with the help of the Unseen Ones (Mursaat). (Source: GW1, bonus mission pack)

Charr don’t belong in Ascalon. When the treaty is done with, I and my brothers will rise up a drive the Charr back out of our homeland.

Stramatus.5219:

When the treaty is done with, I and my brothers will rise up a drive the Charr back out of our homeland.

Sounds awfully familiar :P

Dustfinger.9510:

Stramatus.5219:

When the treaty is done with, I and my brothers will rise up a drive the Charr back out of our homeland.

Sounds awfully familiar :P

Of course it does. It’s silly to think that in GW2. ANet writers cover their bases well.

“your” land?

It is this mad human king, who drove the Iron Legion out of these lands. The Legions took, what is rightfully their own.

By your logic, Ukraine shouldn’t exist and over a half of it should belong to Poland (Belorussia and Lithuania too) – yet it is not like that. History is history, what have passed belongs to the past. And I don’t believe, that charr were that bad in that war. If so, how would they rise to the worldwide military greatness, which is second to none?
I may say either that charr have slaugthered the entire ascalon. Cause they did so. Yet, it’s not whole truth.

Cry me a river, separatists, but as a human engineer, if you rise against the Legions, send me your names. I’ll carve them on my bullets and shells.

Sincerely, Tsume Koi of Kryta.

Tarreth.8914:

“your” land?

Yes our land. This whole “the humans were actually the badguys” thing was just shoehorned in by the developers to make the races more equal. Nothing more.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Tarreth.8914:

“your” land?

Yes our land. This whole “the humans were actually the badguys” thing was just shoehorned in by the developers to make the races more equal. Nothing more.

Except the humans of Tyria over two hundred years ago . . . well, they were really kind of . . . you know . . .

Not nice.

Precisly, They weren’t. Especially Ascalonian ones. Ascalon belongs to the Charr now. Don’t even try to change it. I am certain, that Ebonhawke guards and Seraph will put you in a good use of meat cannon against centaurs or dragon minions across the world.
You’ll be fired right out of a CHARR gun.

Die, separatist.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Yes our land. This whole “the humans were actually the badguys” thing was just shoehorned in by the developers to make the races more equal. Nothing more.

Ehhh….

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. //in no time we began to take over.// Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

That ^ can be found in the guild wars manuscripts that came with the first game before any expansion.

Oh these posts are fun.

“your” land?

It is this mad human king, who drove the Iron Legion out of these lands. The Legions took, what is rightfully their own.

…as of 2012.

By your logic, Ukraine shouldn’t exist and over a half of it should belong to Poland (Belorussia and Lithuania too) – yet it is not like that. History is history, what have passed belongs to the past.

Well that’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. How would a Ukrainian feel if Putin suddenly proclaimed Russia the “ancestral homeland” of the ancient Rus and he invades and kicks out all those “foreign” Ukrainians. Stupid scenario, right? Don’t confuse real history with fantasy.

And I don’t believe, that charr were that bad in that war.

Althea called, she wants her un-scorched skin back.

If so, how would they rise to the worldwide military greatness, which is second to none?

Answer: a few nerds(like all of us here) rewriting the Charr narrative, that’s how.

Dustfinger.9510:

Ehhh….

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. //in no time we began to take over.// Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

That ^ can be found in the guild wars manuscripts that came with the first game before any expansion.

Well if yer going to take all that literally, then you gotta believe this too from the same source:
“Despite the serpents’ retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic. It was to be a gift to all the intelligent creatures—meant to ease a life of toil and make survival a less arduous task. When they had finished creating their gift, they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land.”
;)

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

Ehhh….

“They arrived naked and defenseless, except for one thing: their desire for control. //in no time we began to take over.// Soon humans had everything we required, and it was then that we began to prey upon the other creatures. We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us. We became the masters of this world. We took all of the privilege and none of the responsibility.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

That ^ can be found in the guild wars manuscripts that came with the first game before any expansion.

Well if yer going to take all that literally, then you gotta believe this too from the same source:
Despite the serpents’ retreat, the gods never halted their work creating the world, and with the benevolence of indulgent parents, they decided to create magic. It was to be a gift to all the intelligent creatures—meant to ease a life of toil and make survival a less arduous task. When they had finished creating their gift, they presented it to the humans and the Charr, the Tengu and the dwarves, the minotaurs and the imps, and all the races of the land.
;)

We don’t need to believe the npc’s are infallible in order to show that “humanity was actually the bad guys” is not a new concept created for other playable races. It was established from the very begining of the game. That image of humanity has remained consistant from the birth of GW1 into GW2.

Deflection, but ok I’ll roll with it.

There’s a lot to be said for your comment. From the establishment of Ascalon and Kryta, to guilds killing each other in the streets of Arah, to Elonians slaughtering Forgotten in the Crystal Desert, all the way to Meerak shouting “Repent for your sins!” like a crazy man. Indeed, GW2 could be seen as a logical continuation of that premise.

I would argue humanity had already paid that price. Unrestricted magic-use cost Tyrians the full use of it, and humans in particular the protective presence of the gods after their Exodus. Unending Guild warfare cost them the strength to resist the Charr invasions. The Cataclysm and Searing themselves can(sort of) be seen as fate finally coming ’round on the irresponsibility of human privilege and power.

But are humans really the bad guys in all of this? Was it humans who came to this world of their own volition? Was it humans who created unrestricted magic to abuse? Was it humans who imprisoned a god, only to have that act come back to haunt them tenfold? Was it humans who decided to push into Charr lands in the first place?

No. The real bad guys, if we must decide, are the gods themselves. It was their irresponsibility and arrogance which has caused, directly or indirectly, most of the strife in Tyria’s history. Humans are by no means innocent, but to say they are the bad guys of Tyria is more than a little misguided.

Obsidian.1328:

Humans are by no means innocent, but to say they are the bad guys of Tyria is more than a little misguided.

Agreed.

So why exactly is letting them get rocked by a sucker punch and sent back to defending on the ropes something they didn’t earn through their expansion through “nothing is stopping us”. The Six slowly went quiet after Abaddon was destroyed, due to their role being over. (Something the avatars even say to Kormir directly.)

Humanity was getting left to stand on their own merits, and that wasn’t good enough to keep everything they had.

They earned their fall.

Honestly, I don’t think that it is a matter of who was historically right or who was wrong, or who has the greatest ancestral claim to Ascalon. At this point it is personal for every single human or warband that lost someone in the age old conflict. I’m curious what others have to say about this, because I’m not as familiar with the lore, but it seems to me that it might be easier for the charr to let go of their animosity because of how their society is structured. Hereditary/familial relationships aren’t as important to the charr. If a charr loses their son and daughter in a battle with humans, it isn’t felt the same way, because the primary social unit in charr society isn’t the family, it is the warband and warbands aren’t hereditary or multi-generational as far as I can tell, though I could be wrong about that. For humans it is different. Family bonds are strong. Humans trace their lineages backwards, and pass on their names and property to their children. When a human loses their child or parent or spouse in a battle with charr, it is more of an acute personal blow that reverberates throughout the generations. Humans may have more of a personal investment in the conflict—or maybe that’s totally off base. I don’t know. I’m relatively new to the lore. That said, I think if peace negotiations were to break down again between humans and charr, whether people fight would largely depend on their personal investment in the conflict and not whether it was historically justified.

Obsidian.1328:

Well that’s the silliest thing I’ve ever heard. How would a Ukrainian feel if Putin suddenly proclaimed Russia the “ancestral homeland” of the ancient Rus and he invades and kicks out all those “foreign” Ukrainians. Stupid scenario, right? Don’t confuse real history with fantasy.

Don’t confuse? Same thing it is! After all few posts ago, someone told about “humans being so much like in real world” or so.
These lands didn’t belong to Ukraine, yet today, after they earned it, no one (but Russians) question their right to it. Same with the Legions. Ascalon belonged to Charr → Humans drove them off of it → Charr got mad and took it back.

And I don’t give a kitten , how.

Do you know, what retcon is?

Tarreth.8914:

Do you know, what retcon is?

All too well. That’s what happened to the Charr and Human race in this game.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They earned their fall.

That’s like saying america deserves to fall because they took North America from the indians. And the indians were, just like the charr back then, tribals living in tents. It wasn’t even a nation back then.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

And the indians were, just like the charr back then, tribals living in tents. It wasn’t even a nation back then.

This is false. The charr had an empire.

“Internal strife, reckless power-mongering, and brutal feuds threatened to tear apart this otherwise secure empire.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

Obsidian.1328:

Deflection, but ok I’ll roll with it.

There’s a lot to be said for your comment. From the establishment of Ascalon and Kryta, to guilds killing each other in the streets of Arah, to Elonians slaughtering Forgotten in the Crystal Desert, all the way to Meerak shouting “Repent for your sins!” like a crazy man. Indeed, GW2 could be seen as a logical continuation of that premise.

I would argue humanity had already paid that price. Unrestricted magic-use cost Tyrians the full use of it, and humans in particular the protective presence of the gods after their Exodus. Unending Guild warfare cost them the strength to resist the Charr invasions. The Cataclysm and Searing themselves can(sort of) be seen as fate finally coming ’round on the irresponsibility of human privilege and power.

But are humans really the bad guys in all of this? Was it humans who came to this world of their own volition? Was it humans who created unrestricted magic to abuse? Was it humans who imprisoned a god, only to have that act come back to haunt them tenfold? Was it humans who decided to push into Charr lands in the first place?

No. The real bad guys, if we must decide, are the gods themselves. It was their irresponsibility and arrogance which has caused, directly or indirectly, most of the strife in Tyria’s history. Humans are by no means innocent, but to say they are the bad guys of Tyria is more than a little misguided.

It’s really not deflection at all. My point was that it wasn’t a new concept created to include the other races and it is demonstrated. They were conquerors from the first game. if we choose to describe that as “bad guys” or merely “misguided”, the result is the same. The image of them is consistant. That they are not the shining heroes of the allian….erm.. Tyria. They are fallible and susceptible to the same base drives that RL humans are.

So sure. We can see that the gods had a major hand in their actions. But let’s not delude ourselves into thinking it only started for GW2.

I stand corrected then

Dustfinger.9510:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

And the indians were, just like the charr back then, tribals living in tents. It wasn’t even a nation back then.

This is false. The charr had an empire.

“Internal strife, reckless power-mongering, and brutal feuds threatened to tear apart this otherwise secure empire.”
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Ecology_of_the_Charr

Funny, never saw anything like this prior to GW2…

Stramatus.5219:

Funny, never saw anything like this prior to GW2…

The charr were one dimensional baddies at the inception of GW1. They really had no history at all. but when a-net did delve into their history, this is what was established.

Though, keep in mind that it also says this:

“The Charr were once a primitive people, filled with rage and a primal drive to dominate and control.”

“The Charr subjugated or destroyed any and all who dared defy them within their territories”

“Only the strong personality of the Khan-Ur kept this ferocious and, yes, still-primitive race unified.”

So when the charr were given a history they established that they were still savage and primitive. Even when they had an empire.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They earned their fall.

That’s like saying america deserves to fall because they took North America from the indians. And the indians were, just like the charr back then, tribals living in tents. It wasn’t even a nation back then.

That’s not why they earned their fall, which shows I either wasn’t clear enough or you weren’t paying attention. Tyrian humans earned their fall through a combination of hubris and infighting. The Guild Wars set them up to get weaker and get picked off.

Never the less, back there, Charr relied on magic, on rage of fire. Now they are soldiers. Master engineers, true weapons of their own. If magic would be better, Flame Legion would reclaim everything, yet the Legions stand all cool with their cannons, engines , guns and soldier’s discipline.

Tarreth.8914:

Never the less, back there, Charr relied on magic, on rage of fire. Now they are soldiers. Master engineers, true weapons of their own. If magic would be better, Flame Legion would reclaim everything, yet the Legions stand all cool with their cannons, engines , guns and soldier’s discipline.

And yet, they still can’t break Ebonhawke.

Because they use different tactics. Also, walls of Ebonhawke are mastercraft in fortifying art. It would take from the Legions alot of engine power to crush it. And they would eventually, if they’d get THAT mad.

But it doesn’t matter anymore. Charr agreed for a treaty. They have no need of assaulting Ebonhawke anymore.

The Charr were still a relatively primitive race during the events of Guild Wars and were given the Searing Cauldron magic by the agents of Abbadon to cause chaos for the chosen race of his siblings the other 5 gods of Tyria, as a form of petty vengeance.

They had no means to develop the means to research or develop advance science and engineering know-how since they had no fix place of settlement and were a warlike society of wonder war-bands. They as a result were a very tribal people.

Even if we grant that they were not “evil” as a whole just that one faction that’s purely psychotic and unbalanced in the extreme. It has not been explain how the whole Charr race was transformed from a tribal/nomadiac culture to one that is now very much urbanised, and capable of pursuing and developing advance science and engineering.

How is this possible in 250 years? How was this social transformation achieved? What caused this profound change in a very warlike tribal society where ones worth is determined by conquest?

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

How is this possible in 250 years? How was this social transformation achieved? What caused this profound change in a very warlike tribal society where ones worth is determined by conquest?

How did they develop the weapons? Through Deldrimor dwarven black powder. How did their society change? The Fierce Warband’s revolution and the move to a refusal of any god/deity.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The Charr were still a relatively primitive race during the events of Guild Wars and were given the Searing Cauldron magic by the agents of Abbadon to cause chaos for the chosen race of his siblings the other 5 gods of Tyria, as a form of petty vengeance.

They had no means to develop the means to research or develop advance science and engineering know-how since they had no fix place of settlement and were a warlike society of wonder war-bands. They as a result were a very tribal people.

Even if we grant that they were not “evil” as a whole just that one faction that’s purely psychotic and unbalanced in the extreme. It has not been explain how the whole Charr race was transformed from a tribal/nomadiac culture to one that is now very much urbanised, and capable of pursuing and developing advance science and engineering.

How is this possible in 250 years? How was this social transformation achieved? What caused this profound change in a very warlike tribal society where ones worth is determined by conquest?

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

You know whats funny? The Charr actually never won a major battle against humanity.

-Ascalon:
They only laid waste to ascalon because the Titans gave them a magic nuke. All the Charr had to do was clean up the survivors that were left. And they couldn’t even do that because of the foefire.

-Orr:
We blew it up before they could take it, and took their entire army with us.

-Ebonhawke:
Even with all their military might, they couldn’t take a small fortress for at least 200 years.

Partially true.

- I totally agree that the Charr would never have taken Ascalon without the help of the Titans’ magic (the Searing). The Great Wall was simply too much of a defensive obstacle to overcome, and the Charr didn’t have the siege artillery technology to take it down.

However, the reason why the Charr didn’t conquer the rest of Ascalon afterwards was because the bulk of their invasion army moved on after the Wall was broken. They headed south and split into two fronts, one heading for Kryta and the other, larger force, for Orr. (The reason for this, as we now know, was because Abaddon, through the Titans, was pushing the Charr towards Arah.)

The Charr who remained in Ascalon were probably just a few small divisions, deemed sufficient to mop up any survivors. Of course, they underestimated the resolve of the Ascalonians (and the effort of the GW1 PCs), and with the complete decimation of the Charr army at Orr and the defeat in Kryta, they didn’t really have time to recover and rebuild their numbers to really conquer Ascalon, giving the Ascalonians a fighting chance.

- If I recall correctly, Ebonhawke was founded not long before Adelbern used the Foefire. The Charr would therefore have been quite distracted by the new undying ghostly threat in their lands. By the time they reorganized and started devoting more attention to Ebonhawke, they were already well dug in and had an Asuran gate to keep providing them with supplies and reinforcements. It is that last part which is crucial; I have no doubts that Ebonhawke would have fallen without outside aid from Kryta and, more specifically, the Ascalon Settlement. (It is perhaps ironic that Rurik’s plan, despite leaving Ascalon behind, was the key to humanity retaining a foothold in Ascalon.)

Stramatus.5219:

Let’s not forget Kryta.

-Kryta: Saul D’alessio and the White Mantle defeated the Charr with the help of the Unseen Ones (Mursaat). (Source: GW1, bonus mission pack)

Stramatus also makes a good point here. The Krytans were on the verge of defeat before Saul D’Alessio and his White Mantle, secretly empowered by the Mursaat, drove them back. In the Bonus Mission Pack, we even see that Saul’s desperate assault on the Charr general Rox Ashreign only succeeded because the Mursaat intervened personally and helped them slay all of the Charr war leaders in a single precise attack.

Zaxares, your words are pure wisdom.

I totally agree that the Charr would never have taken Ascalon without the help of the Titans’ magic (the Searing). The Great Wall was simply too much of a defensive obstacle to overcome, and the Charr didn’t have the siege artillery technology to take it down.
———————————————————————-
Indeed

The Charr who remained in Ascalon were probably just a few small divisions, deemed sufficient to mop up any survivors. Of course, they underestimated the resolve of the Ascalonians (and the effort of the GW1 PCs), and with the complete decimation of the Charr army at Orr and the defeat in Kryta, they didn’t really have time to recover and rebuild their numbers to really conquer Ascalon, giving the Ascalonians a fighting chance.
————————————————————————-
So basically, it was human actions that kept the full bulk of the Charr army from descending down upon Ascalon. (Khilbron initiating the Cataclysm and Saul D’Alessio getting help from the Mursaat)

If I recall correctly, Ebonhawke was founded not long before Adelbern used the Foefire. The Charr would therefore have been quite distracted by the new undying ghostly threat in their lands. By the time they reorganized and started devoting more attention to Ebonhawke, they were already well dug in and had an Asuran gate to keep providing them with supplies and reinforcements.
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Once again, it was human actions that kept it standing. Creating the ghost threat and keeping the fortress supplied kept it from being destroyed.

I have no doubts that Ebonhawke would have fallen without outside aid from Kryta and, more specifically, the Ascalon Settlement.
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But that’s just it. It didn’t fall. Because Ebonhawke did get aid. “what could have happened if..” Isn’t really relevant.

The Krytans were on the verge of defeat before Saul D’Alessio and his White Mantle, secretly empowered by the Mursaat, drove them back. In the Bonus Mission Pack, we even see that Saul’s desperate assault on the Charr general Rox Ashreign only succeeded because the Mursaat intervened personally and helped them slay all of the Charr war leaders in a single precise attack.
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The charr called upon godly beings (titans) when they could not win on their own. It only makes sense Kryta does the same to even the score.

You gave some very good reasons as to why the Charr never actually won a major battle against humanity. But the fact that they never did stays the same. In the end it was human actions that kept them from ever having a total victory. Thanks for reinforcing my argument

Ehh……., I think Zaxares went through a lot of trouble to delve into the specifics but his/her main point seems to be the double standard here. When charr win with aid it doesn’t count but when humans win with aid it does.

Dustfinger.9510:

When charr win with aid it doesn’t count but when humans win with aid it does.

Never said that.
All I said is that it’s only fair that humans call upon the Mursaat because the charr called upon the Titans.

Charr layed waste to Ascalon with the help of the Titans.
Humans layed waste to the charr invasion force with the help of the Mursaat.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Never said that.
All I said is that it’s only fair that humans call upon the Mursaat because the charr called upon the Titans.

Charr layed waste to Ascalon with the help of the Titans.
Humans layed waste to the charr invasion force with the help of the Mursaat.

Oh, definitely. I meant earlier when you said that the charr never won and then cited Ascalon as evidence because they had Titan help.

Dustfinger.9510:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Never said that.
All I said is that it’s only fair that humans call upon the Mursaat because the charr called upon the Titans.

Charr layed waste to Ascalon with the help of the Titans.
Humans layed waste to the charr invasion force with the help of the Mursaat.

Oh, definitely. I meant earlier when you said that the charr never won and then cited Ascalon as evidence because they had Titan help.

Not really sure what you are getting at.
The Charr never had a complete victory in Ascalon. (even with titan help).
Kryta never had a complete victory either (even with Mursaat help).
Both sides won a battle with aid, not the entire war.

I never stated that the charr had complete victory with titan aid that didn’t count and the humans had a complete victory with Mursaat help that did count.

All I said a few posts back is that the Charr never would have broken through Ascalons defenses without titan help, which is true. And the same counts for Kryta’s victory over the charr, which wouldn’t have been possible without help of the Mursaat. I never claimed otherwise.

No, no. In the post you stated that the charr never won a major battle. Neither of us were talking about winning the major war.

What im referring to is what Zaxeres was responding to:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The Charr actually never won a major battle against humanity.

-Ascalon:
They only laid waste to ascalon because the Titans gave them a magic nuke. All the Charr had to do was clean up the survivors that were left. And they couldn’t even do that because of the foefire.

It says the charr never won a major battle and cites the fact that they had titan help as a reason.

edit:

All I said a few posts back is that the Charr never would have broken through Ascalons defenses without titan help, which is true. And the same counts for Kryta’s victory over the charr, which wouldn’t have been possible without help of the Mursaat. I never claimed otherwise.

Ah, THAT’s where it went wrong. I misinterpreted the message there. :P

Dustfinger.9510:

No, no. In the post you stated that the charr never won a major battle. Neither of us were talking about winning the major war.

What im referring to is what Zaxeres was responding to:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

The Charr actually never won a major battle against humanity.

-Ascalon:
They only laid waste to ascalon because the Titans gave them a magic nuke. All the Charr had to do was clean up the survivors that were left. And they couldn’t even do that because of the foefire.

It says the charr never won a major battle and cites the fact that they had titan help as a reason.

With major battle I actually meant an entire conflict (thus a war). Poor use of words on my part and I apologise for the confusion.

Yeah, I also made the same misinterpretation that Dust did. All cool. The point I just wanted to make was that without the Wall, the Charr forces would have been more than sufficient to devastate the combined armies of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr. They did not succeed due to a number of external factors in humanity’s favour, but that’s kind of like how a lot of real life battles go. Sometimes wars are won purely due to serendipity and the environment.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Tarreth.8914:

“your” land?

Yes our land. This whole “the humans were actually the badguys” thing was just shoehorned in by the developers to make the races more equal. Nothing more.

Actually, humans ‘are bad guys’ isn’t really done that much.

If you look, there are some Charr in Black Citadel who openly go “We think our version of this battle is blown out of whack and is BS. We are trying to find relics to tell us the true story.” Both sides did their propaganda.

Anyway, there ISN’T any need to reclaim Ascalon. The treaty official gave Fields of Ruin to Ebonhawke/humans. Humans have their bit of land (which the Charr are helping to secure).

Ascalonians are stubborn, but really only the Ascalon settlement ones are truly bad about it. Ebonhawke was more accepting (Though thats probably because of being tired of the siege). Hell, in CoF you encounter the siegemaster of the charr and one of the sappers/scouts of the Ebon Vanguard. Immediately after the cease fire, the human marched to the charr, and they shared several drinks and became friends.

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

That kind of thinking leads to all sorts of problems. How do we know there aren’t vast Grawl cities as well somewhere off the map? Or Centaur? Or Ogre? We don’t, but we can only presume based off of how the game portrays a given culture. The GW1 Charr gave almost no impression of anything urban or settled in nature. Everything points to a nomadic and/or tribal way of life. Extrapolating from those precedents seems a logical thing to do.

If anything, the Ascalons would be the one’s to have cities/towns outside the known one’s we see in-game. They are known to be both explorers, and permanent settlers. Who’s to say they didn’t have vast settlements back behind their homelands away from the front lines?

Obsidian.1328:

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

That kind of thinking leads to all sorts of problems. How do we know there aren’t vast Grawl cities as well somewhere off the map? Or Centaur? Or Ogre? We don’t, but we can only presume based off of how the game portrays a given culture. The GW1 Charr gave almost no impression of anything urban or settled in nature. Everything points to a nomadic and/or tribal way of life. Extrapolating from those precedents seems a logical thing to do.

If anything, the Ascalons would be the one’s to have cities/towns outside the known one’s we see in-game. They are known to be both explorers, and permanent settlers. Who’s to say they didn’t have vast settlements back behind their homelands away from the front lines?

We know Ascalon had Nolani and Surmia (spelling?) north of the wall. Maybe another (which could be the urban fractal perhaps.)

Thing is, EOTN established they had forts and such. “homelands” and even in GW2 we hear about the “blood citadel” which is the Blood legion headquarters, though we don’t have a location.

The front lines isn’t really a good example of a races behaviour elsewhere. Charr warcamps don’t mean they don’t have towns in other areas, and in GW2 they obviously set up villages so it makes sense.

Grawl simply don’t make sense to have cities. Centaurs and Ogres both have some sizable camps/forts, so both would make sense to perhaps have a city.

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

See EOTN, Charr Homelands. Bunch of camps, I think I recall one stronghold, but certainly no cities.

Stramatus.5219:

Dustfinger.9510:

How do we know they were nomadic in GW1? That they didn’t have vast cities back in their homelands away from the front lines of their invasion?

See EOTN, Charr Homelands. Bunch of camps, I think I recall one stronghold, but certainly no cities.

EOTN and gW1 not once showed us children for dwarves or Charr. Or Tengu. Or female dwarves/charr…