Guild Wars 2

So Anet trying to solve grinding by implementing rewards per way completed. But overall it’s not solve problem. People already thinking about optimal ways for better time/reward. Overall this “fix” would only ressurect like third of ways, but other still would be forbidden.
And this is huge disadvantage for new players, who want to see game content, but can’t because some ways hard, time wasting and overall non-profitable.

I think proper way to implement this update not adding same reward for different paths (with slight difference), but adding for each dungeon and way it’s own different gold reward, and bonus gold/decent items after completing all 3 ways, and also some bonus rewards after completing next full dungeon, and then next etc.

In this way players would be motivated in completing full different dungeon, and not farming only fastest paths in different dungeons.

Longer paths giving more gold is the best improvement to this day,along with the new champion drops.People skipped those paths because there was no incentive to do them,they just gave the same stuff and the easiest stuff did.Now players will feel extra rewarded for giving more effort

The problem is they won’t get the balance right on the “longer” paths. We’re going to end up with one path which will take a group 15 minutes to complete awarding 1g and a another path which takes a group which utilised the right exploits 10 minutes to complete and that path will be worth 2-3g.

The thing which is going to force players into multiple dungeons is the nerf to boss gold drops. The daily gold reward alone wouldn’t have done that.

I don’t understand why dungeon rewards are being balanced around gold. Players only want gold to obtain items, the rewards should be the items players wants, tokens to purchase them or the components to craft them in the mystic forge. Content specific item rewards circumvents the issues created by gold completely and kills the " gold farm" mentality which uses game design to herd players into grinding the most efficient gold farms to acquire items they want.

To be honest I don’t see what the issue is. Everyone has access to the information, the dungeon, and the rewards as well. If you are new oh well, it really isn’t that hard to jump in and figure it out. The rewards are daily, so I don’t really mind. CoF path 1 is now only worth half as much gold if not less than that. As for items, the Champion drop lootbags are going to be the source of that.

All in all I would much rather have this new system than the old one. I am tired of it being so hard to find a dungeon run that isn’t CoF or AC.

I think, that grind problem is not game fault, but players. We have the habit to bend game rules to get max profit. Game can’t really change our characters and habits ;__;
With time we will manage to milk as much as we can.

It’s fight with the windmills.

You won’t solve this problem, as long as we won’t play fair.
People want to change the world, instead of changing themself. I think that is the main problem with todays people.

What about groups asking for players for specific paths? It going to make finding a group harder.

phiplayer.2865:

I think, that grind problem is not game fault, but players. We have the habit to bend game rules to get max profit. Game can’t really change our characters and habits ;__;
With time we will manage to milk as much as we can.

It’s fight with the windmills.

You won’t solve this problem, as long as we won’t play fair.
People want to change the world, instead of changing themself. I think that is the main problem with todays people.

All of this is brilliant!

Onshidesigns.1069:

What about groups asking for players for specific paths? It going to make finding a group harder.

Groups asking for players for specific paths? Not really sure what you mean. If a group wants to run AC paths 1-2 of course they are going to ask people to join them for AC paths 1-2. Now this patch will make it harder to find a dungeon group because after you do a path once, there is not really any point in doing it again from a money stand point.

Cappy.2786:

Longer paths giving more gold is the best improvement to this day,along with the new champion drops.People skipped those paths because there was no incentive to do them,they just gave the same stuff and the easiest stuff did.Now players will feel extra rewarded for giving more effort

Arah P4 still isn’t worth 3G.

phiplayer.2865:

I think, that grind problem is not game fault, but players. We have the habit to bend game rules to get max profit. Game can’t really change our characters and habits ;__;
With time we will manage to milk as much as we can.

It’s fight with the windmills.

You won’t solve this problem, as long as we won’t play fair.
People want to change the world, instead of changing themself. I think that is the main problem with todays people.

Players aren’t accumulating gold for the fun of it. Usually it’s because they want to buy something with it. If acquiring items and rewards was naturally built into gameplay instead of relying on tremendous gold grinds to acquire it over the trading post, players wouldn’t feel the need to grind. They could acquire the items by playing the game. Instead, we have RNG rare drops and crazy grinds to acquire end game items. Players don’t see reasonable pathways to acquire the items by playing the game the intended way, so they resort to grinding efficient farms to make item acquisition realistic.

The system encourages and requires grind if you want to participate in item acquisition.

just remove the trash mobs and long winded paths (arah p4 example)

make the boss have 1g once per day (southsun dungeon)

done.

Lippuringo.1742:

So Anet trying to solve grinding by implementing rewards per way completed. But overall it’s not solve problem. People already thinking about optimal ways for better time/reward. Overall this “fix” would only ressurect like third of ways, but other still would be forbidden.
And this is huge disadvantage for new players, who want to see game content, but can’t because some ways hard, time wasting and overall non-profitable.

I think proper way to implement this update not adding same reward for different paths (with slight difference), but adding for each dungeon and way it’s own different gold reward, and bonus gold/decent items after completing all 3 ways, and also some bonus rewards after completing next full dungeon, and then next etc.

In this way players would be motivated in completing full different dungeon, and not farming only fastest paths in different dungeons.

You’re not making any sense with this rambling.

First, let me point out that new players aren’t restricted from any content via gear, save for Level 10+ Fractals (yay Agony!). Content being hard is not a deal breaker, it’s a challenge. The “time wasting and overall non-profitable” is a personal opinion and personal problem. From an outside-looking-in perspective, the entire game is a “time waste”, but to those playing it…it’s a fun adventure, enjoyable game. Bottom line of my rambling [in this paragraph] is that there’s no disadvantage for new players.

Secondly, dungeons are getting gold rewards based on their difficulty and time it takes for completion . The gold reward is between 1-3g per each path based on it’s grade. So the “harder” ones are going to pay out more, encouraging players to attempt those paths.

Lastly, each path of each dungeon only rewards out once per day. This does encourage that players go to different paths and different dungeons if they want to continually gain rewards (the alternative is doing CoF pt1, wait until 5pm server reset, do it again…what a slow, timid, and rather mundane way of trying to obtain currency).

P.S. You’re completely ignoring Champion Loot addition to this patch, which complements the Dungeon revamp perfectly. Not only does it reward killing each boss (thus to discourage skipping/speed runs), but it also is a boon to open world content. Orr and Southsun Cove are crawling with Champions that I feel, come Tuesday, will be slaughtered by the 1,000’s in the name of fancy drops.

Shiren.9532:

phiplayer.2865:

I think, that grind problem is not game fault, but players. We have the habit to bend game rules to get max profit. Game can’t really change our characters and habits ;__;
With time we will manage to milk as much as we can.

It’s fight with the windmills.

You won’t solve this problem, as long as we won’t play fair.
People want to change the world, instead of changing themself. I think that is the main problem with todays people.

Players aren’t accumulating gold for the fun of it. Usually it’s because they want to buy something with it. If acquiring items and rewards was naturally built into gameplay instead of relying on tremendous gold grinds to acquire it over the trading post, players wouldn’t feel the need to grind. They could acquire the items by playing the game. Instead, we have RNG rare drops and crazy grinds to acquire end game items. Players don’t see reasonable pathways to acquire the items by playing the game the intended way, so they resort to grinding efficient farms to make item acquisition realistic.

The system encourages and requires grind if you want to participate in item acquisition.

I disagree. People will ALWAYS want to grind to get max profit in a lot less time then the others who plays normally. Whatever the goal for grind would be. I think you have too much faith in humanity ^^. And I don’t like your statement that it’s game’s fault. Even when there would be a game that encourages you to do events, wich gives you better rewards than grind, also blocking any exploits – it would take away freedom from players. And they would surly leave this game, because doing normal events like the others do, would be very boring for them. Just giving legendary weapon makes it not really legendary. If you are saying that way to aquire rare items it too much grinded, that let me state that if Anet would want to only concentrate on getting legendary weapon, they would make another game, based around it. Work went on other stuff. Sorry, can’t have everything.

It’s like Game Dev Tycoon. You cant have best story/engine/graphic at the same time. Something must be a bit lower then the others.

And again, game doesn’t encourages you to grind. You can play this game normally, and still get legendary. But with a loooot more time, then with grinding.

I already see the masses of people talking like this “LF2M Zerk warriors and mes for xx dungeon path x, speed clear” This system will only alienate more classes that want to go into dungeons that dont fall within the standard speed clear model.

phiplayer.2865:

I think, that grind problem is not game fault, but players. We have the habit to bend game rules to get max profit. Game can’t really change our characters and habits ;__;

I don’t agree with that at all. It’s the equivalent of a bunch of game designers throwing their hands in the air and saying “Lets just give up”.

Ultimately grind is always the game’s fault. And it is the game’s rules that dictate our behavior.

Shiren.9532:

The problem is they won’t get the balance right on the “longer” paths. We’re going to end up with one path which will take a group 15 minutes to complete awarding 1g and a another path which takes a group which utilised the right exploits 10 minutes to complete and that path will be worth 2-3g.

so you’re complaining about something you think will happen? have you seen if they didn’t get the balance right? or are you just making an assumption?

Traelia.8629:

I already see the masses of people talking like this “LF2M Zerk warriors and mes for xx dungeon path x, speed clear” This system will only alienate more classes that want to go into dungeons that do not fall within the standard speed clear model.

It is very impossible to make each class useful in dungeons. Most useful classes in dungeons are Mesmers, guards and warriors. Now this does not mean that the other classes are alienated. It all depends on the game design where a variety of activities are established which are better done by some classes than others. i was watching the pvp tournaments online and saw they never used warriors in the team compostion.

As long as each class is useful in the in game activities I dont see a broken game mechanic. Now if you want to do dungeons more and are very much interested in doing them then level something that is in demand for dungeon exploring. Not something you like and want to use. My main is a thief but I levelled a warr for dungeons now.

UnknownRH.4592:

It is very impossible to make each class useful in dungeons. Most useful classes in dungeons are Mesmers, guards and warriors. Now this does not mean that the other classes are alienated. It all depends on the game design where a variety of activities are established which are better done by some classes than others. i was watching the pvp tournaments online and saw they never used warriors in the team compostion.

I think if they fixed the way conditions work, and changed Defiant, that classes such as my own (necromancer) could find a proper place in dungeon parties. Also, they’d have to give us back our defense against burst damage. That last pax tournament nerf just harmed PVE necromancers across the board.

Looking at it more closely, there really is a lot of stuff broken about our class that they need to fix. I wish the developers could let go of their love for the guardian for just a few days, and focus on rangers and necromancers for PVE.

Siphaed.9235:

You’re not making any sense with this rambling.

First, let me point out that new players aren’t restricted from any content via gear, save for Level 10+ Fractals (yay Agony!). Content being hard is not a deal breaker, it’s a challenge. The “time wasting and overall non-profitable” is a personal opinion and personal problem. From an outside-looking-in perspective, the entire game is a “time waste”, but to those playing it…it’s a fun adventure, enjoyable game. Bottom line of my rambling [in this paragraph] is that there’s no disadvantage for new players.

Secondly, dungeons are getting gold rewards based on their difficulty and time it takes for completion . The gold reward is between 1-3g per each path based on it’s grade. So the “harder” ones are going to pay out more, encouraging players to attempt those paths.

Lastly, each path of each dungeon only rewards out once per day. This does encourage that players go to different paths and different dungeons if they want to continually gain rewards (the alternative is doing CoF pt1, wait until 5pm server reset, do it again…what a slow, timid, and rather mundane way of trying to obtain currency).

P.S. You’re completely ignoring Champion Loot addition to this patch, which complements the Dungeon revamp perfectly. Not only does it reward killing each boss (thus to discourage skipping/speed runs), but it also is a boon to open world content. Orr and Southsun Cove are crawling with Champions that I feel, come Tuesday, will be slaughtered by the 1,000’s in the name of fancy drops.

It’s funny because when i’m talking about difficulty in finding group, you think i’m talking about gearing up. Dude, gearing in this game is hell easy.

Also there is 8 dungeons, each have like 3 paths. it’s 24 ways of making gold. Do you really think that someone gonna farm anyhow hard path, when there is plenty of other options?

And more then, even completing several paths will take some hours to do so. It’s not your regular CoF p1, which you can complete in 10 minutes.

And we returning to what i said: it’s hell hard to see all dungeon content for new players, especially on low populated servers, because after week or so people already could find proper time/reward route for farming dungeons, and other paths will be mostly abandoned, if you’re not in guild of same casual enthusiasts as you are.

phiplayer.2865:

Shiren.9532:

phiplayer.2865:

I think, that grind problem is not game fault, but players. We have the habit to bend game rules to get max profit. Game can’t really change our characters and habits ;__;
With time we will manage to milk as much as we can.

It’s fight with the windmills.

You won’t solve this problem, as long as we won’t play fair.
People want to change the world, instead of changing themself. I think that is the main problem with todays people.

Players aren’t accumulating gold for the fun of it. Usually it’s because they want to buy something with it. If acquiring items and rewards was naturally built into gameplay instead of relying on tremendous gold grinds to acquire it over the trading post, players wouldn’t feel the need to grind. They could acquire the items by playing the game. Instead, we have RNG rare drops and crazy grinds to acquire end game items. Players don’t see reasonable pathways to acquire the items by playing the game the intended way, so they resort to grinding efficient farms to make item acquisition realistic.

The system encourages and requires grind if you want to participate in item acquisition.

I disagree. People will ALWAYS want to grind to get max profit in a lot less time then the others who plays normally. Whatever the goal for grind would be. I think you have too much faith in humanity ^^. And I don’t like your statement that it’s game’s fault. Even when there would be a game that encourages you to do events, wich gives you better rewards than grind, also blocking any exploits – it would take away freedom from players. And they would surly leave this game, because doing normal events like the others do, would be very boring for them. Just giving legendary weapon makes it not really legendary. If you are saying that way to aquire rare items it too much grinded, that let me state that if Anet would want to only concentrate on getting legendary weapon, they would make another game, based around it. Work went on other stuff. Sorry, can’t have everything.

It’s like Game Dev Tycoon. You cant have best story/engine/graphic at the same time. Something must be a bit lower then the others.

And again, game doesn’t encourages you to grind. You can play this game normally, and still get legendary. But with a loooot more time, then with grinding.

The point would be that instead of farming dungeons for gold (in which case all parts of the game are competing with each other for the best method to access gold) gold is removed as the common value item. Arah armour has a set value because it can only be obtained in Arah. You can’t run CoF or AC in the easiest path every day obtain it, you have to run Arah.

If a player is running CoF for money to buy lodestones, it would make more sense to make lodestones reliable drops from specific dungeons (or purchases with dungeon tokens) to give players a way to obtain those items as drops in the game. They wouldn’t have to circumvent the system and farm Orr or easy mode dungeons, they would be running specific dungeon content to earn their rewards. Different dungeons could possess different crafting materials and item rewards. Players who want Kudzu would be farming TA, players who want Incinerator would be farming CoF. Different paths could be rewarded differently (similair to how the gold rewards will vary based on path length and difficulty). This would spread players out across the world and give them specific content to complete to obtain items instead of encouraging them to find the path of least resistance to the most reward and repeat that until their eyes bleed. Gold could still be a lesser component of item acquisition (or an optional alternative) but it wouldn’t be the be-all end-all of the item hunt. Content itself would actually be rewarding. Generalising rewards across the game reinforces the grind the path of least resistance mentality, resulting in parts of the world devoid of players. Content specific rewards are great for reinforcing the value of all content.

Lodestones for tokens, 100 tokens a piece.
Make it so!

Shiren.9532:

The point would be that instead of farming dungeons for gold (in which case all parts of the game are competing with each other for the best method to access gold) gold is removed as the common value item. Arah armour has a set value because it can only be obtained in Arah. You can’t run CoF or AC in the easiest path every day obtain it, you have to run Arah.

If a player is running CoF for money to buy lodestones, it would make more sense to make lodestones reliable drops from specific dungeons (or purchases with dungeon tokens) to give players a way to obtain those items as drops in the game. They wouldn’t have to circumvent the system and farm Orr or easy mode dungeons, they would be running specific dungeon content to earn their rewards. Different dungeons could possess different crafting materials and item rewards. Players who want Kudzu would be farming TA, players who want Incinerator would be farming CoF. Different paths could be rewarded differently (similair to how the gold rewards will vary based on path length and difficulty). This would spread players out across the world and give them specific content to complete to obtain items instead of encouraging them to find the path of least resistance to the most reward and repeat that until their eyes bleed. Gold could still be a lesser component of item acquisition (or an optional alternative) but it wouldn’t be the be-all end-all of the item hunt. Content itself would actually be rewarding. Generalising rewards across the game reinforces the grind the path of least resistance mentality, resulting in parts of the world devoid of players. Content specific rewards are great for reinforcing the value of all content.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. Let me reinforce your point.

Example: Player 1 is farming CoF p1. Why? Because he needs tons of gold for those Charged Lodestones. Why doesn’t he farm charged lodestones somewhere? Because they don’t drop reliably. So farming CoF p1 is the path of least resistance. He makes his gold, and buys them, which is easier than farming them, thereby making this easy dungeon path the solution to this problem.

Instead: Reward players with what they really want/need. Let Charged Lodestones be bought from token vendors from the CoE Vendor, for X amount of tokens. Now, Player 1 isn’t forced to grind CoF p1, and can, yes, grind CoE.

But hey at least that results in: 1) Playerbase being spread out into all dungeons, not focusing on ONE path because its so easy and rewards gold as the solution to your needs, and 2) so that you can get the item you REALLY want, which are the lodestones, or whatever else it may be in your case.

Each dungeon could offer unique rewards which are the REAL items that players want/need, rather than force them to grind/farm a completely unrelated piece of content for the gold reward.

This doesn’t seem too complicated or ridiculous. It seems very doable and reasonable.

Rather, ANet decides: 1) Let’s nerf the amount of gold players get from dungeon bosses. Okay. Fine. No problem. But…we can assume now that many players’ income of gold will be greatly reduced. Maybe you should introduce a way to obtain the expensive items we need now? At the moment, there is no reliable way to farm, say, 100 Charged Lodestones. You might say: farm CoE. Okay. But then, doesn’t that amount to the same thing as constantly farming CoF p1? It’s all the same, it’s all grind.

They really didn’t implement a solution. What they really did is decided to quell the playerbase that had a problem with farming one particular instance, and masked that with the introduction of the Champion Loot bags.

Sure, the Champion Loot bags are supposed to drop lodestones, rarely. But that doesnt mean they will drop what you need.

This, in essence, defies Arenanet’s stance on how we should be able to play Guild Wars 2: “Play how YOU want.”

Well really you can play how you want, just we can’t expect to be rewarded for how we want to play. Also lodestones for tokens would be great. But than people that don’t like dungeons would complain that they are “forced” to run them to get lodestones.

Uther Deathhand.1570:

Well really you can play how you want, just we can’t expect to be rewarded for how we want to play. Also lodestones for tokens would be great. But than people that don’t like dungeons would complain that they are “forced” to run them to get lodestones.

Lodestones for dungeon tokens is just an example, that is brought up now because of the recent dungeon reward system changes. But i mean..the same logic could apply to many parts of the game. Fractal relics, karma, laurels…anything.

Lippuringo.1742:

It’s funny because when i’m talking about difficulty in finding group, you think i’m talking about gearing up. Dude, gearing in this game is hell easy.

Also there is 8 dungeons, each have like 3 paths. it’s 24 ways of making gold. Do you really think that someone gonna farm anyhow hard path, when there is plenty of other options?

And more then, even completing several paths will take some hours to do so. It’s not your regular CoF p1, which you can complete in 10 minutes.

And we returning to what i said: it’s hell hard to see all dungeon content for new players, especially on low populated servers, because after week or so people already could find proper time/reward route for farming dungeons, and other paths will be mostly abandoned, if you’re not in guild of same casual enthusiasts as you are.

That guy was right, you make no sense with your rambling. It is pretty funny to read, trying to decipher some pertinent content amongst bad English and run-on sentences. Maybe there is a language barrier in effect here, but if there isn’t than I am sorry to hear that.

tl dr; You might want to proof read what you type, because it makes absolutely no sense.

The proper way to fix the dungeons would be to make them available to all players no matter how many people in the party. The dungeon would be just as hard for 1 or 15 players. Or if that is impossible to give players Hero’s to use instead of pug groups.

Myst Dawnbringer.9138:

The proper way to fix the dungeons would be to make them available to all players no matter how many people in the party. The dungeon would be just as hard for 1 or 15 players. Or if that is impossible to give players Hero’s to use instead of pug groups.

Glad you’re not working for Anet.

Haha bumping an old topic I know. But daym you all must now feel like some nabs lol. Anet actually provided the solution to the problem. you do get lodes and cores from champion loot bags and you actually earn more gold in dungeons than before.

Ohh how people complain all the time. I just read some one was arguing how he had to grind for stuff. really I ask you what are you doing then playing an MMO. again cheers to Anet.