Guild Wars 2

Keep trying until you get lucky. That’s about it.

After 100+ attempts all the stars aligned and:

*I got no bad orb spawns in phase 2

*Went down after getting a lucky hit on a clone and as I was getting up exploded all the clones around us leaving just me and Liadri, both low on health, to duke it out in the center of the arena

*By a miracle of almighty Zeus she died before me (I had literally 102 health left) and before my “Feel No Pain” wore off.

My thoughts on this:

Phase 1 is FUN. You learn the mechanics until you can do it flawlessly. It was a challenge and it felt rewarding to beat.

Phase 2 SUCKED! It was frustrating and ultimately came down to luck.

I’m sure there are some people out there who beat this through skill. But if you’re one of the people saying “It only took me about 50 tries, it’s not that bad” it ain’t you. Being able to beat this 1 out of 40, 50, or 100+ tries isn’t skill, it’s luck, pure and simple.

Honestly, if it weren’t for those kitten orbs and godawful camera I feel as if this would have been a MUCH fairer fight. As it is, most people who beat this are going to just have to keep trying until they get lucky, and that ISN’T FUN.

(In before “It’s not luck based, Lrn2play noob!”)

I disagree, the whole fight is frustration, both phases.

That’s pretty much the big killer for me. It wasn’t fun or fair. Just blatantly designed to kill you off in cheap ways.

Nilkemia.8507:

(In before “It’s not luck based, Lrn2play noob!”)

I disagree, the whole fight is frustration, both phases.

That’s pretty much the big killer for me. It wasn’t fun or fair. Just blatantly designed to kill you off in cheap ways.

Welcome to hardcore content. This was the best boss I’ve fought in GW2. If this was frustrating for you, avoid hardcore content in the future.

Whoever relies on luck does not have either the skill, the setup (lagg etc.) or the proper build for Liadra.

Also, I can beat her 100% of the time now. It took me about 30 tries to get to that point. So it’s no longer ‘’1 out of 30’‘, but from now on it will be 30 out of 30.
So what I’m saying is that there are several ways to completely be non-reliant of ’’luck’’ unless you’re lagging (considering I’ve got a decent PC I’m good on that department).

For instance, I’ve shared my build with some skilled friends. They found Liadri just so much easier with it. Didn’t take them long to get the 8 Orb achievement with it either.

Ohai! Perhaps the following thread will help you:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/jubilee/Note-There-is-no-RNG-with-Liadri/first#post2613552

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Nilkemia.8507:

(In before “It’s not luck based, Lrn2play noob!”)

I disagree, the whole fight is frustration, both phases.

That’s pretty much the big killer for me. It wasn’t fun or fair. Just blatantly designed to kill you off in cheap ways.

Welcome to hardcore content. This was the best boss I’ve fought in GW2. If this was frustrating for you, avoid hardcore content in the future.

So content has to involve one-hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, and the very environment working against you to be considered hardcore? I would think there are ways to make something hard without those cheap old tricks. There’s another reason stuff like this shouldn’t continue.

Thanks for the advice, but I already took the hint and throw away all the tickets from now on, since I can’t sell them or give them to someone else, which doesn’t make sense.

Nilkemia.8507:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Nilkemia.8507:

(In before “It’s not luck based, Lrn2play noob!”)

I disagree, the whole fight is frustration, both phases.

That’s pretty much the big killer for me. It wasn’t fun or fair. Just blatantly designed to kill you off in cheap ways.

Welcome to hardcore content. This was the best boss I’ve fought in GW2. If this was frustrating for you, avoid hardcore content in the future.

So content has to involve one-hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, and the very environment working against you to be considered hardcore? I would think there are ways to make something hard without those cheap old tricks. There’s another reason stuff like this shouldn’t continue.

Thanks for the advice, but I already took the hint and throw away all the tickets from now on, since I can’t sell them or give them to someone else, which doesn’t make sense.

Yes. For something to be hard, it has to actually punish you for making mistakes. If the AoE Circles did 5k damage, the fight would be trivial and you wouldn’t have to know a thing about them. Because they instantly kill you, you have to fully understand them. In fact, because everything instantly kills you, you have to know about everything in the fight if you want to stand a chance. It’s hardcore content. Practice and learn it or go back to the pits below.

We’ve already got a few dungeon bosses (Alpha, Lupicus, the Spider Queen, the Nightmare Tree’s Fyonna mode, etc.) that punish you for making mistakes. Any fight with a champion solo punishes you for making mistakes (The Champion Risen Abomination comes to mind particularly, but this does more or less apply to any champion.) This fight goes beyond that. “Punish” doesn’t even feel like a strong enough word for this.

What you’ve basically said, is that for content to be hard, it has to kill you off in cheap ways, be utterly unfair, frustrate people and discourage them from playing it and/or bringing out the worst in them in the process if they continue. They should basically expect to die however many times to figure out the patterns, like I Wanna Be The Guy, or any those other painfully hard games. Hard does not equal fun. And if it isn’t fun, I don’t think it should continue to spread here.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Nilkemia.8507:

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Nilkemia.8507:

(In before “It’s not luck based, Lrn2play noob!”)

I disagree, the whole fight is frustration, both phases.

That’s pretty much the big killer for me. It wasn’t fun or fair. Just blatantly designed to kill you off in cheap ways.

Welcome to hardcore content. This was the best boss I’ve fought in GW2. If this was frustrating for you, avoid hardcore content in the future.

So content has to involve one-hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, and the very environment working against you to be considered hardcore? I would think there are ways to make something hard without those cheap old tricks. There’s another reason stuff like this shouldn’t continue.

Thanks for the advice, but I already took the hint and throw away all the tickets from now on, since I can’t sell them or give them to someone else, which doesn’t make sense.

Yes. For something to be hard, it has to actually punish you for making mistakes. If the AoE Circles did 5k damage, the fight would be trivial and you wouldn’t have to know a thing about them. Because they instantly kill you, you have to fully understand them. In fact, because everything instantly kills you, you have to know about everything in the fight if you want to stand a chance. It’s hardcore content. Practice and learn it or go back to the pits below.

when 2-3 clones walk over a light patch and only 1-2 die meaning I cant pick up the orb/s because clones are unblockable
thats me being punished for?
when an orb spawns and pulls me into clones/AoE
thats me being punished for?

The difficulty jump for this fight is frustrating and while some may manage this after an hr or 2 the rest are going to feel like they are hitting a brick wall.
Theres challenging fights that make you feel good when you win and then theres this where your just glad you dont have to do it again. This isnt fun.

Nilkemia.8507:

We’ve already got a few dungeon bosses (Alpha, Lupicus, the Spider Queen, the Nightmare Tree’s Fyonna mode, etc.) that punish you for making mistakes. Any fight with a champion solo punishes you for making mistakes (The Champion Risen Abomination comes to mind particularly, but this does more or less apply to any champion.) This fight goes beyond that. “Punish” doesn’t even feel like a strong enough word for this.

What you’ve basically said, is that for content to be hard, it has to kill you off in cheap ways, be utterly unfair, frustrate people and discourage them from playing it and/or bringing out the worst in them in the process if they continue. They should basically expect to die however many times to figure out the patterns, like I Wanna Be The Guy, or any those other painfully hard games. Hard does not equal fun. And if it isn’t fun, I don’t think it should continue to spread here.

YOU don’t think it’s fun because YOU don’t like hardcore content. It’s extremely clear from your post. I, along with other hardcore players, enjoy being beaten by a boss. If I beat something on the first try, it’s pretty boring. I like failing, because it means there’s something I can improve on. Of course, this arena has some issues (retryability issues), but when you’re in the fight, there’s isn’t much I’d improve. The only failing of this arena is Quality of Life improvements, not boss improvements. For those who enjoy being beaten, Liadri is a god send in a game with otherwise almost no challenge at all.

when 2-3 clones walk over a light patch and only 1-2 die meaning I cant pick up the orb/s because clones are unblockable
thats me being punished for?
when an orb spawns and pulls me into clones/AoE
thats me being punished for?
The difficulty jump for this fight is frustrating and while some may manage this after an hr or 2 the rest are going to feel like they are hitting a brick wall.
Theres challenging fights that make you feel good when you win and then theres this where your just glad you dont have to do it again. This isnt fun.

So for the first part where you said clones are unblockable, that’s just false. I use that as a major strategy in defeating her with multiple gambits. You’re being punished for not proactively getting the orbs down as soon as they go up. If you can’t get them, rethink your strategy.

As for the second part, I’ve never had a better moment in this game than when I beat her for the first time. That was until I got the 8 orbs achievement. It’s fine to be casual, but don’t call content kitten because YOU don’t like hardcore content. I don’t complain that the bosses down below are not hardcore enough because I get that it’s casual content.

I have to somewhat agree with Gates… It isn’t that random. When an orb appears you have a good 3 – 4 seconds to destroy it before it pulls you after that it is your fault for taking so long. All of these solo boss fights have been quite entertaining. I still haven’t beat Liadri, but I am pretty sure I will get it done before Friday.

The only problem I have with this fight is im under level 80 and without the traits and the gear setup I can only get her to about 35% before I fall through the platform, I can do this 100% of the time, the fight is easy once you learn the patterns, everything is the exact same you can do the same motions and get her 3 orb done as fast as 3 clone spawn

viciouspike.8624:

I have to somewhat agree with Gates… It isn’t that random. When an orb appears you have a good 3 – 4 seconds to destroy it before it pulls you after that it is your fault for taking so long. All of these solo boss fights have been quite entertaining. I still haven’t beat Liadri, but I am pretty sure I will get it done before Friday.

Except not all the weapons work at range toward the orbs – some attacks are “obstructed” all the times. So if they spawn near you it is quite an advantage – you haven’t got to bother going physically near them despite AoEs and enemies.
And that depends purely on luck.

Ok, this is my understanding so far about the pulling orbs. Projectiles do not work on it and you will get “Obstructed” message, other than that, other types of attack should destroy it in 1 hit (melee, aoe, non-projectile ranged, etc.)

The Gates Assassin.9827:

YOU don’t think it’s fun because YOU don’t like hardcore content. It’s extremely clear from your post. I, along with other hardcore players, enjoy being beaten by a boss.

First off, Guild Wars 2 isn’t a hardcore game and was never intended for hardcore gamers. If you want hardcore you’re in the wrong place. Here you are in the minority.

Second of all, there is being beaten by a boss and then there is being beaten by a boss 100+ times even after you memorize her pattern and have the perfect build/gear because she has cheap mechanics like those orbs and bad camera making it hard to see the red circles on the ground.

If I beat something on the first try, it’s pretty boring. I like failing, because it means there’s something I can improve on. Of course, this arena has some issues (retryability issues), but when you’re in the fight, there’s isn’t much I’d improve. The only failing of this arena is Quality of Life improvements, not boss improvements. For those who enjoy being beaten, Liadri is a god send in a game with otherwise almost no challenge at all.

Most people aren’t masochists like you are and can recognize the difference between challenging and frustrating. But you are right, if someone enjoys hours and hours of failure (due to cheap mechanics) and having to spend mondo dosh on more clockwork sprockets/tickets then Liadri is the best boss in the game.

So for the first part where you said clones are unblockable, that’s just false. I use that as a major strategy in defeating her with multiple gambits. You’re being punished for not proactively getting the orbs down as soon as they go up. If you can’t get them, rethink your strategy.

There are several problems with this. First off, even if most people had the presence of mind to keep track of Liadri, her clones, shadow blast insta-kill AND the orbs it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to see where the orbs spawn due to camera issues.

The way the camera was positioned when I was strafe kiting Liadri I could only see one thing, the opposite side of the arena. I couldn’t see Liadri or her clones as I fired at them off screen, I couldn’t see where the heck I was going and only managed to avoid the shadow blasts by memory.

And I sure as hell couldn’t see where the orbs were spawning unless they spawned on the other side of the arena and in that case there was no way I would be able to get to them in time.

There is no feasible way to go after those orbs proactively. Even if by some miracle you can see all of them spawn the fact that you have to continuously move in a set pattern to avoid the shadow blasts makes it practically impossible to get to them in time without dying.

Add to that the fact that my Rifle Butt attack failed to shatter the obs about 75% of the time when I did happen to path across one; it’s simply poor game design and luck.

As for the second part, I’ve never had a better moment in this game than when I beat her for the first time. That was until I got the 8 orbs achievement. It’s fine to be casual, but don’t call content kitten because YOU don’t like hardcore content. I don’t complain that the bosses down below are not hardcore enough because I get that it’s casual content.

When I beat Liadri I didn’t feel excited or like a kitten, I was just glad it was FINALLY over. I didn’t feel like some 1337 hardcore gamer who needs to brag on the forums about it, I felt like drinking myself into unconsciousness. And that’s exactly what I did that night.

Those of us who have a problem with the Liadri battle aren’t calling it crap because it’s too hard, we’re concerned with the cheap mechanics and the fact that it simply isn’t fun.

Also, Liadri was not designated as “hardcore” content as you like to call it, she’s just another part of the Guantlet. If there was some sort of hardmode specifically designed for masochists who like to die over and over again, I’m sure most people would be fine with that. But as it stands, Liadri is a massive difficulty increase out of nowhere and you can’t truly complete the Guantlet unless you beat her, which is frustrating to many.

If Anet wants to include “hardcore” content, that’s fine, just don’t have it creep up on us out of nowhere because it is mixed in with a bunch of casual content.

I mean, how would people feel if they were playing an easy Mario game then Bowser at the end is practically unbeatable by the majority of the player base? That would suck, and that’s why Liadri, or at least the way she’s been presented, sucks.

So content has to involve one-hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, and the very environment working against you to be considered hardcore? I would think there are ways to make something hard without those cheap old tricks. There’s another reason stuff like this shouldn’t continue.

This keeps coming up, and it’s a problem with the combat system that people predicted since beta. The game simply gives you so many ways to avoid all damage that ultimately – if the content is to pose a challenge at all – the hits have to be hugely punishing when they do land.

This isn’t a Liadri problem, this is an issue with the entire combat system in the game as it relates to PvE content. Other MMO’s have had similar issues (albeit in different ways) that resulted in much the same problems. Tanks in WoW with extreme avoidance resulting in bosses that had to hit ridiculously hard to compensate, for example.

Second of all, there is being beaten by a boss and then there is being beaten by a boss 100+ times even after you memorize her pattern and have the perfect build/gear because she has cheap mechanics like those orbs and bad camera making it hard to see the red circles on the ground.

These are pretty blatant exaggerations.

You don’t need a “perfect build/gear”. You can actually defeat her just fine in greens and with subpar builds. (Example: My necro is in green Rabid gear off the AH, and I just threw 30 points into each offensive tree and 10 points wherever else, can’t even remember what traits I took other than Scepter conditions lasting longer to keep her close to perma-crippled in P2)

The camera and the red circles ARE annoying. I agree. But they’re not insurmountable. I have huge issues with Red/Green in particular, and managed to find ways to see the ground circles pretty well.

Most people aren’t masochists like you are and can recognize the difference between challenging and frustrating. But you are right, if someone enjoys hours and hours of failure (due to cheap mechanics) and having to spend mondo dosh on more clockwork sprockets/tickets then Liadri is the best boss in the game.

See, this kind of generalization is just rude. You don’t have to be a masochist to enjoy challenges.

Well, i have 2 80lvls, ranger and mes. On ranger she is nearly impossible to do… On Mes i watched yt video, after watching it i beated her in 2nd attpemt. Now i’m struggling with Light Up The Darkness achievement and only thing i would change in this fight is instance it. Camera is annoying, but not as much as lags. I’m very often getting laged or get sick fps drop(down to ~5) in the middle of fight… Separating Gauntlet from Pavilion would be nice. Also i don’t have problem with seeing red circles… It can have anything to do with me having to play on lowest?(And yes, even when playing on lowest i can get 5 fps if suddenly zerg moves under me…)

Wow. This is going to take a while to unpack. If I don’t quote something, it’s because I agree.

Barabbas.8715:

Second of all, there is being beaten by a boss and then there is being beaten by a boss 100+ times even after you memorize her pattern and have the perfect build/gear because she has cheap mechanics like those orbs and bad camera making it hard to see the red circles on the ground.

If a strategy you are doing isn’t working because you mess up a lot, it’s not the strategy’s fault. You need to design a strategy that you can handle. For example, I know there is a better start to Liadri than what I do, but I don’t nail it every time like I do my current strategy. Sure, it’s a bit longer, but it’s consistent. Same thing goes for part 2. Taking time to kill some of the visions is a waste of time, but I do it because it lets me focus on one less thing. Part of strategy is making sure of components of the strategy are doable by the person doing it.

Most people aren’t masochists like you are and can recognize the difference between challenging and frustrating. But you are right, if someone enjoys hours and hours of failure (due to cheap mechanics) and having to spend mondo dosh on more clockwork sprockets/tickets then Liadri is the best boss in the game.

I don’t mean to be rude, but you have to understand how a hardcore player works. I REALLY enjoy figuring out how to do something that might well be impossible. I’m working on Liadri with 6 gambits. I have no idea if it’s even possible, but that’s why I love it! Also remember that this is optional content. You never have to kill Liadri if you don’t want to. Part of an achievement is that it’s…and achievement? If it was simple, it’d be stupid.

The way the camera was positioned when I was strafe kiting Liadri I could only see one thing, the opposite side of the arena. I couldn’t see Liadri or her clones as I fired at them off screen, I couldn’t see where the heck I was going and only managed to avoid the shadow blasts by memory.

I partially agree. For part 2, I disagree. You should never be anywhere near the walls for part 2. For Part 1, my strategy involves smushing my camera right up against it. Honestly, this didn’t bother me as much as most people, but I agree it should have been a cylinder arena instead.

There is no feasible way to go after those orbs proactively. Even if by some miracle you can see all of them spawn the fact that you have to continuously move in a set pattern to avoid the shadow blasts makes it practically impossible to get to them in time without dying.

So you’re a warrior? Why no longbow 3 attack? You can even trait it to 1,200 range, which is more than enough. As soon as you hear the sound, you have to look and fire. It takes a lot of skill. You are lucky, you get to have stability! Engis have to just take it and stun break.

When I beat Liadri I didn’t feel excited or like a kitten, I was just glad it was FINALLY over. I didn’t feel like some 1337 hardcore gamer who needs to brag on the forums about it, I felt like drinking myself into unconsciousness. And that’s exactly what I did that night.

Those of us who have a problem with the Liadri battle aren’t calling it crap because it’s too hard, we’re concerned with the cheap mechanics and the fact that it simply isn’t fun.

Fun is a subjective term. It’s completely dependent on the person talking. Liadri is, to me, the most fun thing in the game currently. To you, it’s not.

Also, Liadri was not designated as “hardcore” content as you like to call it, she’s just another part of the Guantlet. If there was some sort of hardmode specifically designed for masochists who like to die over and over again, I’m sure most people would be fine with that. But as it stands, Liadri is a massive difficulty increase out of nowhere and you can’t truly complete the Guantlet unless you beat her, which is frustrating to many.

Semantics. Would it have been better if she was in her own tier? Would it really change much? She’s the final boss. Final bosses take a while.

You have to remember that there needs to be hardcore content, even if the majority of the game is casual. Eventually, players are going to beat everything, and if all of the content remains at the same difficulty, it gets stale. Hardcore content is something for those of us who have mastered everything and want to feel like a noob again. Mastery sucks.

Nilkemia.8507:

So content has to involve one-hit kills, gimmicky invulnerability, and the very environment working against you to be considered hardcore? I would think there are ways to make something hard without those cheap old tricks. There’s another reason stuff like this shouldn’t continue.

Did you use to play Super Mario when you were little? Because you just described it.

1-hit kills, gimmicky invulnerable enemies, environment working against you, etc.

Super Mario was just a lot of pattern memorization too. Not as bad as Ninja Gaiden for the NES. I never spent the money on Battletoads, which I hear was the worst.

WyldKat.4712:

Super Mario was just a lot of pattern memorization too.

Indeed. And once you memorize the patterns and learn how to control jumps precisely, you’re going to be able to beat the level a majority of the time you attempt it.

@OP

Learning an extremely punishing encounter and adapting to even the random elements IS SKILL. So losing several times, and eventually winning, is not luck. But perseverance.

I’m guessing you’ve never done any end game raiding in games such as WoW.