Alternate Twisted Marionette Boss Guide~~~~~
Just one question. I thought there was a hard cap of 25 people that could go up to the platforms?
I don’t think there is a cap for going into the platform… Has anyone ever been denied entry?
I believe people only think there is a cap of 25 people because we all try to get 25 people per lane
Just one question. I thought there was a hard cap of 25 people that could go up to the platforms?
Not true in the slightest. Ignorant information spread by those who don’t know what they are talking about.
Sylvari Guardian. – Dragonbrand.
Worth a try to see if it works.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Well, if there isn’t a cap, then yes, I agree that the OP’s strategy has merit. While the Wardens do scale up based on the number of players fighting them, having more players around provides greater utility and more buffer against mistakes in the form of extra bodies to res those who get downed.
I still don’t feel comfortable leaving the later lanes more or less unguarded, but this strategy of having a mobile assault force to overstack the Wardens is definitely worth a shot if you have enough people in the map.
The greatest problem i have encountered is people dismissing the legitimacy of the strategy without coming up with strong reasons why it would not work. It is really difficult to convince a group to try a strategy because of how counterintuitive it is to just ‘let monsters leak’ when it is possible to kill them but the reason we lose is because we lose to the wardens, not because the monsters leak
Some things include: We have stacked lane 1 in the past and by the end of the boss the bar is 50% full.
This is a totally different situation because
1. 4 lanes are not covered
2. the people are not aware that the small weak twisted reavers cause a large growth in the bar. The champions only increase it by 1%.
People say things like the way things are is fine. We can all beat the platform with 5 people. But the thing is that is it not consistently winning because we win 4/5 platforms. Yes winning with 5 people is possible, but if we had 8 per platform it would be a higher chance of winning. Saying things like ‘everyone should just learn the boss, or stop being bad’ is not a solution because it does not change the result because mistakes happen, and this can result in a platwipe.
(edited by Vincent.6243)
The reason I see people failing so much is people still do not understand the 2nd warden.
Even if there is only a single person that has aggro and is an idiot, it will fail the entire chain. So all 40 people you’ve got there won’t do any good. The entire half hour event comes down to hoping you don’t have a single idiot on the 2nd warden attempts.
It may actually be more effective to have like 15 people on lane two to reduce the odds of someone being stupid. If 1 out of 10 people is a complete idiot, you might get lucky and have 15 normal people.
Do you have a strategy for when you have 3-4 players per lane?
Server: Devona’s Rest
Just one question. I thought there was a hard cap of 25 people that could go up to the platforms?
Not true in the slightest. Ignorant information spread by those who don’t know what they are talking about.
He is probly thinking about the 5min buff
You will never have 3-4 people per lane…. Thats 12 people on the server? Basically just give up lol
I think with 8 people we have alot more dps and can kill the boss easier. The hard part with having 3-4 people ona platform is because it is more difficult to find people that know how to beat it AND have the dps. Scaling up is much easier to beat than scaling down. And if 1 person goes down for whatever reason, there is a much higher chance of wiping.
We have 3-4 people per lane on Devona’s Rest for most attempts. If we want rewards we just pack everyone onto Lane 1 since we can’t even keep enough mobs out for Lane 3 to get a turn.
The only upside is that you can get your Daily Boss Thumper done in about 3 minutes.
Server: Devona’s Rest
People say things like the way things are is fine. We can all beat the platform with 5 people. But the thing is that is it not consistently winning because we win 4/5 platforms. Yes winning with 5 people is possible, but if we had 8 per platform it would be a higher chance of winning. Saying things like ‘everyone should just learn the boss, or stop being bad’ is not a solution because it does not change the result because mistakes happen, and this can result in a platwipe.
It very much is a solution. If people played better yen you wouldn’t need so many people to kill relatively easy bosses. Yes, mistakes do happen but it’s not based on the number of people. Mistakes can happen just as likely when you have more people.
What if you have the champ scaled to 8 people but three people die? You’re forgetting that quite a number of the champs’ attacks are AoE so if a lot of people get downed, numbers won’t matter. It’s also more difficult to see the bombs on warden 3 if a lot of people are on the platform. It may also be difficult to kite warden 2 and someone mentioned that you could make the mines explode and kill other players.
(edited by Ayrilana.1396)
This is an interesting strategy but a “quit or double” one. Basically you are trading off number of allowed fails with probability of success at each attempt.
My problem with this : you can’t prevent people for being weak players and there is a significant probability that these weak players find themselves together on the same Platform thus screwing the attempt.
Example : boss 3 If the bombs go off it’s usually party wipe no matter the number of players on the Platform.
Example 2 : boss 4 The AoE madness (sometimes the entire Platform is covered with orange and black) means that 6 players have as many chances to be wiped as 3 players.
The only thing I am unsure off is the scaling of the champion regulator. If it doesn’t scale, then your strategy might be a sound one.
Known as Reegar Else, Linda Else, Xiana Else and Thorgall Breakstone
I also want to point out that at the time you made this thread that you had only succeeded twice out of 20-30 attempts. Of those two successes, only once was this strategy used. Keep in mind that what may look good in theory may not actually work out when done live. You could also have gotten lucky on that attempt.
Having a larger pool of players means that the average skill of the player will be more consistent. Thus, 8 players should have a higher chance of survivng than 5 overall because skill is distributed.
It is alot easier to res people with 8 players on a platform than 5., and if those 5 people didnt have a chance of succeeding the boss would have failed too. If 8 people are on a platform, I really don’t think a platform can wipe because the amount of heals that exist on the platform. That is against if 5 people are on a platform and 3 die, those 2 surviving will have a much more difficult time ressing 3 people, than 5 people on an 8 platform ressing 3 people.
I really think having a larger amount of numbers will increase the chance of beating the boss SIGNIFICANTLY.
My statistics before is that in the past we are always spreading outselves on 5 platforms, and i have a 10% winrate like that. The only time I did the strategy, I got to the fifth boss…. I know its the smallest sample rate possible and I am trying to get people to try the strategy but its hard to convince randoms of doing something >.>
(edited by Vincent.6243)
Like I stated above, you’re not taking into account AoE attacks that will down people. Downed people cannot res others. It doesn’t take much to down a lot of people on those small platforms with the bombs. Skill is not more distributed when you add more people. It doesn’t work like that.
One issue with this strategy is that if we did it this way, and it worked like you expect it to, then we’d complete each platform rather quickly. Meaning that the people you want to move from lane 1 to lane 4 would still have a 30-40 second debuff on them that wouldn’t allow them to enter into the portal. I ran into this problem in the last run on FA when you were trying to convince us of your strategy and many of us attempted it. We moved to the lanes like we were supposed to but those of us from lane 1 couldn’t get into lane 4’s portal and it failed. Just something to take into consideration. If you they complete the warden phases that quickly it won’t work.
I really think having 8 people will have less people going down on aoe because thers more people who know how to dodge the mines.
The issue with timing is interesting but the solution is to not kill the regulator until theres ~10sec left so we can just wait after the boss dies (or 1 plat waits)
(edited by Vincent.6243)
I really think having 8 people will have less people going down on aoe because thers more people who know how to dodge the mines.
Having a larger pool of players means that the average skill of the player will be more consistent. Thus, 8 players should have a higher chance of survivng than 5 overall because skill is distributed.
I hesitated about elaborating my point further earlier but maybe I should have. The above two quotes are what I have an issue with as they’re incorrect. You’re basing your argument that on the premise that the more people you have, the more skilled they will be as a group. The logic behind this is flawed.
I’ll keep the following example very simple. Imagine that you’re on a map with 140 players doing the marionette event. Exactly 50% are your average skilled players (not everyone is DnT or rT) while the other half are terrible. The players are divided in the same way you mentioned (40 in lanes 1, 2, 3 with 4 and 5 each having 10).
For the sake of simplicity, let’s say the terrible 50% die instantly upon zoning onto their platform. The champs scale up to the level of 8 players. You now have 4 players who have to overcome the challenge that was meant for 8. The average skilled players do not have much room for error as each one that dies severely hurts their platform’s chances of succeeding. The higher the scaling, the more difficult it is to make up for the loss of people.
The example above was to illustrate that just because you have more people, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you’re going to perform better. There are quite a few variables that you are not taking into account:
- The percentage of players that are good vs bad
- How the good and bad players are distributed amongst the lanes
- How the good and bad players are distributed amongst the platforms
- How the champ will be scaled with more players and the impact if some die
- The impact of AoE’s from the champ and marionette on a small platform
- The player models and visual effects blocking your view on circles, bombs, and etc
There are just too many variables to accurately state that having more people will mean you’ll have more people that can dodge the mines. The same can be said about having more peoples means that the skill level will be more consistent. It’s just not true.
The overall player skill level across the map is determined by the aggregate individual skill level of the players. The number of players has no correlation. In my above example I had an even 50% split between good players and bad. In actual practice, the percentage could be anything and constantly changes as players enter and leave the map. There are also varying degrees of skill levels rather than just terrible players that die instantly and good players that never die.
People are also ported to the platforms like how a poker dealer deals out cards. This was confirmed by a dev. What you didn’t take into account are timeouts after a player has been assigned to a platform but is still in the loading screen. You can also run into the scenario where all of the bad players are on a single platform together or there’s enough of them to doom the platform.
Throwing more people at something rather than learn the mechanics is just not a good practice to get into doing. It promotes players who do not want to try and are there to be carried. The mechanics of each champ are pretty simple to learn and often mentioned before the event starts and possibly before each lane goes through their portal.
What I am not saying is that we are throwing completely useless players on the platform. In regards to your example, I do not think 4 people can possibly wipe in 5 seconds at the same time against an aoe boss. A more likely example would be 1 or 2 people dying, but having people that warp in faster can save them. You cant assume the people who go into warden 3 all know how to play it either . We cannot simply pick the best players to fight warden 3 to go to lane 3 because there is a chance they will have to fight boss 2. Not to mention the side fact that most good players have the strongest computers and get in the fastest.
The thing is that we are all doing an event together. Assuming we distribute between lanes 1,2,3,4,5 if a platform fails, that warden will go on to the next lane. And if they fail again, it would go onto the next lane. In this game, you have to be prepared for multiple wardens because fails happen all the time. If we stacked lane 2 and 3, we will have people who actually know the boss that would normally be in lanes 4 and 5 if we evenly spread the lanes, that go to lanes 2 and 3 so we would be putting experienced players into lanes 2 and 3. Saying that lanes 4 and 5 have no way to beat wardens 2 and 3 is unreasonable. There is no better way than playing a boss and winning to know how to beat it. Losing against a boss is the worst way to learn.
If lanes 4 and 5 did not know how to beat the boss before, and if we lost at lanes 2 and 3, they would have to beat the boss again. We can’t say that everyone from lane 2 knows exactly how to beat the boss because this situation does not happen and we HAVE lost warden 2 in lane 2 multiple times in the past. And even when we do have people who KNOW how to beat lane 2, sometimes they die, or they dont have to dps to win.
I am saying that having 8 people increases the chances of beating a warden and it is worth the sacrifice of leaking from 1 lane. There hasn’t been enough people who experienced the power of a 8 manned platform, but we have all seen the most common result of having 20-25 people per lane and seeing by randomness 3-4 people on a platform and them not having a dps, or them wiping.
I recommended this guide because I have seen how we have lost against warden 2 and 3. And I do see that a big problem is because we don’t have the dps or they wipe against the boss. And I do see that losing against a warden will increase the bar far much more than leaking does, and it is worth the risk to stack a lane and have a much higher chance of beating a boss than leaking some champions which does not increase the bar as much as people suspect.
If you have tried the strength of an 8 man platform maybe you would agree with me. But theres too much skepticism against something that they havent tried, vs. a strategy that has been done since the beginning and works ‘sometimes’.
You missed what I stated in my post including the point of the example.
I found out the hard way tonight that if you don’t have enough people guarding the lanes then they can overload faster than I’d expected. You won’t get through string 2 if you leave the lanes mostly undefended. If you can find 3-4 people that can adequately actually defend the lanes, then fair enough, but that seems tough to me.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”