Guild Wars 2

I probably prefer more towards what everyone calls a “casual content”. It is easy to do. It makes me happy. That simple.
My numbers from /age is so large that I don’t think anyone would call me a casual player.
I also enjoy the content that requires skillful play. Not all thought.

At first, I thought the marionette fight is actually decent, but after that I have encountered numerous failing. It just frustrated me to the bone and I Alt+F4 the game to cool my head down. I went over duly’s guide over and over and swear that I will beat those wardens. Yeah, the group and I did it on the platform, but all I see is other platforms wiped. Welp, nothing I can do…………….
The new designed encounter thought better than Tequatl, it still has plenty of flaws.
You can’t exactly call every players that made a mistake a bad or casual players. Many are hardcore players as well. Why do they whine like you guys then? Because they did their part at the best, but others failed their part, which are being labeled bad/casual players. You guys basically just insulted your family.

It’s not even any player’s fault anyway.
Please don’t blame other players, they are as angry as you guys too.

On the other hand, I’m still disappointed with the content designer. I think everyone should focus your anger at the platform encounter. This is the most ridiculous thing I have ever seen. “The disability to help other players…..” I thought this was an effort of the whole server. NO, actually we are counting on the few individuals to do the work. Oh and sickness debuff lol what a joke.
There will always be people who are pro, who are good, who are not good, who are…well…bad.

Yeah, the feeling of helpless sums up this update for me.
I’m also turning into a casual player due to the continuous disappointment.
Again, please don’t blame other players, they are as angry as you guys too. No one expected this kind of unforgiving content.

Anger and frustration are the inevitable consequences of putting the fates of players in the hands of other players they don’t know and have no control over.

These epic world boss events may be interesting experiments for the devs, but are ultimately tedious games of roulette for individual players who can spend inordinate amounts of time trying to complete an event only to lose everything because someone else fails.

As long as the design of the game guarantees frustration, players will become angry, and they will take it out on whoever is closest.

For that reason, as well as the fact that these events are so inexcusably BORING, I haven’t set foot near Tequatl in months, haven’t gone anywhere near Bloodtide Coast or Lornar’s Pass, and don’t intend to until these sorts of events are retooled to actually be fun.

I’m not “boycotting” them, because that implies I would otherwise play them.

I just don’t play them.

If I may be frank?

We will stop blaming other players when other players stop being to blame.

Today, we had a group manage to somehow wipe on the very first champion; the south path had a platform with 5 people on it all somehow die to this boss. Not just fail the mechanics, but fail them so hard they actually wiped.

Time and time again, myself and many, many others have been in a situation where 4 platforms of any boss have perfectly completed the fights with a full minute left and then find themselves staring across at a platform with two rangers and two thieves playing Kite the Minelaying Boss In Circles. Or a platform with all melee in zerker gear that charged into the third boss and kept chasing it in circles directly into the highly visible and easily avoidable hover bombs. Or a whole group that utterly ignored the ground AOE’s on boss 4.

And so on, and so on.

If they are not to blame for their own complete lack of basic competence causing the rest of us to fail an event and thus get dramatically lower loot, then who is?

The marionette event would have been fine if Anet had allow people who finished their platforms to help out on the other platforms.

Ultimately, the acidic environment is a result of Anet fight design decisions.

FateOmega.9601:

The marionette event would have been fine if Anet had allow people who finished their platforms to help out on the other platforms.

Ultimately, the acidic environment is a result of Anet fight design decisions.

Unfortunately, all that would do would be to make it so easy it becomes just another boring zerg-fight, or they would have to scale the champions up so much that it would become an extreme DPS test and be unfun.

The better solution is to read the fight mechanics, bring a weapon set that isn’t terrible for the fights, and make dang sure your dodge key is bound.

That is an ideal state. Unfortunately, there will always be players who is playing the event for the first time, have insufficient ability, crappy load time or various other reasons. The uneven distribution of players doesn’t help either.

And it’s not like the required tactics are particularly tough. Boss 3, I can understand to a degree, but boss 1+2 is ridiculous.

Juunro.7082:

If I may be frank?

We will stop blaming other players when other players stop being to blame.

Today, we had a group manage to somehow wipe on the very first champion; the south path had a platform with 5 people on it all somehow die to this boss. Not just fail the mechanics, but fail them so hard they actually wiped.

Time and time again, myself and many, many others have been in a situation where 4 platforms of any boss have perfectly completed the fights with a full minute left and then find themselves staring across at a platform with two rangers and two thieves playing Kite the Minelaying Boss In Circles. Or a platform with all melee in zerker gear that charged into the third boss and kept chasing it in circles directly into the highly visible and easily avoidable hover bombs. Or a whole group that utterly ignored the ground AOE’s on boss 4.

And so on, and so on.

If they are not to blame for their own complete lack of basic competence causing the rest of us to fail an event and thus get dramatically lower loot, then who is?

Its very de-moralising when you successfully complete 2-3 platforms in a marionette run and after watch other platforms fail around you.

I like marionette but with a 100 player pug your chance of success is near 0%, no matter how hard you try.

Also, sadly, there’s a small % of players going to those events who are failing on purpose, because its a great chance to grief upto a 100+ other players.

To the OP:

Uh…. what?

Seriously, though. Yes; the content is designed to be moderately challenging and requires players to utilize their classes to a better degree (and movement and damage avoidance) than normally seen. But this is not a developer problem here. It’s the exact opposite. It is completely a player competency issue.

I’ve read the response by Josh Foreman and I completely agree with his thoughts on the structure and feel of the event that was intended. We need more content that isn’t as brain-dead as 90% of the players are mucking it up to be. We need players to get better at the game. The game only stagnates if we don’t. It sounds to me like you just want this event to be another “loot pinata” affair and not a fair accomplishment that it currently is.

(Barring bugs) Does it suck that we have to rely on other players to not suck? I can see that being a yes. But, at the same time I can see that it sucks that players are not trying to get better because the community constantly tries to trivialize content by not trying to get the players to actually learn their classes and the actual mechanics of the game.

Demonizing the devs because they are wanting their players to improve (so they can bring out more fights and encounters with interesting mechanics such as the Marionette and the Great Jungle Wurm) is entirely counter-productive to the progress of the game.

Meglobob.8620:

I like marionette but with a 100 player pug your chance of success is near 0%, no matter how hard you try.

Yet we did it (and do it) on Blackgate quite constantly… so it’s not 0%.

Juunro.7082:

FateOmega.9601:

The marionette event would have been fine if Anet had allow people who finished their platforms to help out on the other platforms.

Ultimately, the acidic environment is a result of Anet fight design decisions.

Unfortunately, all that would do would be to make it so easy it becomes just another boring zerg-fight, or they would have to scale the champions up so much that it would become an extreme DPS test and be unfun.

The better solution is to read the fight mechanics, bring a weapon set that isn’t terrible for the fights, and make dang sure your dodge key is bound.

I think there is some fault in developers when your game needs to be learned outside the game itself, search the internets to read the event and which weapon sets someone else decided are the best ones etc…

All this should be possible to be learned in-game. Or just design the entire game to be mysterious and to need to search stuff elsewhere.

If the only valid way to play is to ruin yourself the Story by search all the event details before play, why to bother call it a Story at all? Reading spoilers doesn’t make one to enjoy more a series of books, or movies, or tv show, and should not be required.

Punishing people who just want to experience the game and learn in-game should not be a feature.

I had a bearbow who died in first 5 seconds after getting on platform.
The rest of the group rushed to rez him in a bomb and wiped in no time.

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

The acrimony and growth in hostility was inevitable at the design stage… challenging content only works with a set group in a controlled environment where you can work together to improve. It doesn’t suit a public encounter with a shifting cast in a casual game.

Plus the more hardcore will finish off their achievements and move on (they’re goal oriented after all) causing the event to either be abandoned or the skill level to drop.

leman.7682:

I had a bearbow who died in first 5 seconds after getting on platform.
The rest of the group rushed to rez him in a bomb and wiped in no time.

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

Warden 3? Its not hard to load into a bomb if it takes too long. Not much excuse for the ones that didn’t wait for the bombs to clear though. I bet they don’t do it again. Or hope, at least.

zenleto.6179:

leman.7682:

I had a bearbow who died in first 5 seconds after getting on platform.
The rest of the group rushed to rez him in a bomb and wiped in no time.

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

Warden 3? Its not hard to load into a bomb if it takes too long. Not much excuse for the ones that didn’t wait for the bombs to clear though. I bet they don’t do it again. Or hope, at least.

Every time i enter the portal, i do what i can to enter it prepared. On guardian, i pop aegis before hitting F to port. On other toons – if i can, i pop protection; whether i do or not, i frantically spam my dodge key while loading so that i have a chance to dodge something i couldn’t prepare myself for, be it some sort of AoE from the Marionette, a Warden’s attack, or a bomb.
It really isn’t that hard and it actually saved me two times.

Pexx.6327:

To the OP:

Uh…. what?

Seriously, though. Yes; the content is designed to be moderately challenging and requires players to utilize their classes to a better degree (and movement and damage avoidance) than normally seen. But this is not a developer problem here. It’s the exact opposite. It is completely a player competency issue.

I’ve read the response by Josh Foreman and I completely agree with his thoughts on the structure and feel of the event that was intended. We need more content that isn’t as brain-dead as 90% of the players are mucking it up to be. We need players to get better at the game. The game only stagnates if we don’t. It sounds to me like you just want this event to be another “loot pinata” affair and not a fair accomplishment that it currently is.

(Barring bugs) Does it suck that we have to rely on other players to not suck? I can see that being a yes. But, at the same time I can see that it sucks that players are not trying to get better because the community constantly tries to trivialize content by not trying to get the players to actually learn their classes and the actual mechanics of the game.

Demonizing the devs because they are wanting their players to improve (so they can bring out more fights and encounters with interesting mechanics such as the Marionette and the Great Jungle Wurm) is entirely counter-productive to the progress of the game.

/snip

So much this^

I empathize with the OP, but I don’t share his/her opinion. For months, this game was a snooze fest in which one didn’t really have to be skillful, they just had to have the right gear. People who think they’re invulnerable because they bought the right gear are having a hard time, new players and veterans alike.

Unlike the OP, even when the entire platform wipes and leaves the rest of us standing there, I (and a lot of other people) think it was a blast, and we get ready for the next encounter.

On the other hand, I have seen a couple of trolls go in to a platform and deliberately do things to force a fail. Those are the people who need the full fury of your wrath.

*facepalm*

After reading one too many posts insulting players for failures, Ceridwen finally loses it. You have been warned.

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

Why are we all to blame?

There are several reasons, which include but are not limited to, the following (mentally tick the one which most applies to you, or tick all that apply if you feel you are deserving of more):

*Assuming people have played the content before, that each and every one knows exactly what to do at all times. Because they must have and must do, because you do!

*Assuming you have no part in educating the people on your run with exactly what to do. Your failure to communicate your knowledge has grossly let your side down. Give yourself a pat on the back for your non-contribution! Excellent.

*Assuming that it’s okay to insult and belittle people in-game and on forums when there are failures. You lower morale, and in doing so, set yourself and others up for future failures. Well played, you.

*Assuming every player has a maxed-out character taking part, just because your own character is!

*You think everyone should have the event down perfectly after one or two attempts because you have? If you think they should, well done! That’s another assumption and you are clearly a professional. Someone should be paying you for your time.

*Yes, players who fail may well be at fault too, but immediately shifting blame when you DO NOT know exactly why things happened the way they did is lazy reactive thinking. I say thinking; I probably shouldn’t because that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process at all. Assumption!

*Of course, all of that said, turning up and not knowing the minutiae isn’t a crime. Asking isn’t a crime, and it’s better than keeping quiet and contributing to the failure. If this is you, there’s plenty of help and guides now available, so do your best to get stuck in. If you still fail, try to identify what YOU did that was wrong, and arm yourself with better knowledge for next time. That is, if the people from the above reasons don’t make you want to kill yourself or drown kittens instead.

Enough reasons, I need to go and put the kettle on. But to sum up:

Why on earth do you think it’s acceptable to berate other people? How does this make the experience better? Do you feel better for it? Is your life that terrible that’s what you need to do to feel good about yourself? If so, that’s why events will fail. Well done, you.

Owning up to responsibilities probably shouldn’t happen in an online game, but here’s a learning opportunity for all.

*sigh*

*goes to kettle*

*awaits flames... but not from kettle*

Please don’t get the criticism from this thread wrong.
It’s OK to make a mistake. It’s OK to get into trouble by some instagib mechanic you see for the first time – even if you read about it before attempting, it’s a whole different thing for some to read and actually experience stuff.
But it isn’t ok to just port in, click your skills, and think you’re gold. It’s not Farmville. It’s not ok to treat this encounter as your usual run-of-the-mill open map PvE thing. It’s not ok to simply ignore your dodges, bring no survival means, and wipe the floor with your fancy outfit all the time.

Yes, reviving when it’s safe is essential in this encounter.
Sometimes it’s not possible to revive without dying yourself, though.
And even if it is, remember that each time you go down you are keeping two – or more – people out of fight until you’re up again. It’s not only yourself that isn’t contributing for that time, as someone has to revive you, too.

Dead mage deals no damage.
If you can’t survive the warden fights with your melee full glass warrior, simply alter your build, even only as far as changing traits, getting a green rifle, and slotting more survival oriented utilities. Watch your dodge. It’s that simple.

e:
I never blame people for failing, or berate anyone, or flame on /m. People who do so and are being generally rude are actually often kicked from my guild, by my own hands, because it’s not the way and it serves nothing.
I have a handy copypasta prepared, briefly describing each Warden fight and giving tips what to do, always shouting it on /m before the respective Warden fight.

But it’s down to others to carry all that out. Some don’t even read. Some read but don’t understand, as it’s their first time – it’s OK. Then again, some simply roll melee into Warden 3, drop 100b or backstab or whatever melee they have, and go down in no time, because omg much dps.
In the end, at the most basic level, it’s all about the execution of the fight by a number of individuals. Teamplay is very limited, especially across platforms, and thus team responsibility is uncalled for. If you screw up, you go down – if you do it once throughout the fight and understand that if you’re about to go down, it’s best to figure a somewhat safe spot where others can easily revive you, it’s OK. But if you get downed three times in a row and make it impossible to revive you without dying in the process, it does become a clear issue on your side.

Keep in mind it’s really all theorising here. I am sure there are many people who simply made a mistake, and then six more people who made a mistake roughly at the same time, this way or another. But there also are completely clueless people who do not feel like they should put anything into the encounter from their end – people who simply join it and expect to facetank it, or get carried over, not paying attention to the chat, not using ranged weapons or slotting condition cleansing when /m states so, and so on.
Been there, seen that.

FateOmega.9601:

That is an ideal state. Unfortunately, there will always be players who is playing the event for the first time, have insufficient ability, crappy load time or various other reasons. The uneven distribution of players doesn’t help either.

The load time is, in fact, one of the things that really infuriates me about this encounter – instead of putting all the platforms at the back, they should have put them close to the gates so it can be a smooth transition.

Because it really does make it a “is your computer having a good day” check for people who don’t have top-end machines.

Also, Kageru, I cannot +1 your post enough. There is a place for more difficult content that requires everyone to do their part near-flawlessly, but much as ArenaNet seems to be fixated on the idea, open world content is not it.

Just block and report the bashers. They bring down the whole moral of the fight. Yes, so does failing a chain, but these guys are worse.
I think some people just take more time to learn, but it is happening! I’ve been succeeding at this fight more consisting lately. It’s like a switch was finally thrown and people are understanding it.
My home server is very negative so I guest just to get into an overflow at least. My home server never seems to win and I guess nobody wants to do it anymore. I’ve been in countless overflows where people keep up moral and explain tactics very well. It’s a much better experience.

Some people just won’t be patient and truthfully, some players don’t want to learn tactics either, but that doesn’t mean you have to bring the moral of the entire group down. When you bash everyone in mapchat, you’re bashing the people who honestly were trying too.

My advice to everyone else is to just block these people and report them if it warrants that. You’ll have a much better experience.

I love the Marionette fight and especially that it doesn’t automatically succeed like some of the existing world bosses. To me, the possibility that it can fail (and even if you did your own part flawlessly) makes actually winning far more exciting!

Pointing fingers at everyone but yourself – and repeating how you can do it blindfolded with one hand behind your back – the moment even a single lane fails is easy, keeping your calm and encouraging your fellow players even in the face of adversity is a far healthier mentality. Hard fought battles are the most satisfying victory!

I’ll take fights like this over the “just hit it for 15 minutes” Shatterer any day.

i think it’s ok to blame full condi built people. especially when a worm head is at 5% and you can’t help thinking if it might’ve died if 5 people in the group contributed more than double digit dps.

I won’t “demonize” the devs, but I will continue to reiterate what I’ve said since the start of this event: when you create a game that caters to casual players, and then put a much more difficult event in an open area with little or no instruction or training for how to complete it, what you get is the conflict and acrimony and bad will we see surrounding this event.

As much potential as the marionette fight has, it is ruined by being poorly tuned for the game in which it resides. If they want to get people used to more difficult content, it should be done gradually, not by throwing people into the deep end and then watching as the few who know best how to swim hurl insults at the ones who are drowning.

And the broken overflow system just makes it worse, because you end up with strangers from different servers who apparently feel more comfortable hurling abuse at people they don’t know.

At first I thought it was sad that this was temporary content. Now even though I enjoy doing it myself — since I now just accept an 80%+ failure rate and focus on getting code drops — I’m glad it’s going away in a few weeks. I hope something like it never returns until the problems are resolved.

Ceridwen.6703:

facepalm

After reading one too many posts insulting players for failures, Ceridwen finally loses it. You have been warned.

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

Why are we all to blame?

There are several reasons, which include but are not limited to, the following (mentally tick the one which most applies to you, or tick all that apply if you feel you are deserving of more):

*Assuming people have played the content before, that each and every one knows exactly what to do at all times. Because they must have and must do, because you do!

*Assuming you have no part in educating the people on your run with exactly what to do. Your failure to communicate your knowledge has grossly let your side down. Give yourself a pat on the back for your non-contribution! Excellent.

*Assuming that it’s okay to insult and belittle people in-game and on forums when there are failures. You lower morale, and in doing so, set yourself and others up for future failures. Well played, you.

*Assuming every player has a maxed-out character taking part, just because your own character is!

*You think everyone should have the event down perfectly after one or two attempts because you have? If you think they should, well done! That’s another assumption and you are clearly a professional. Someone should be paying you for your time.

*Yes, players who fail may well be at fault too, but immediately shifting blame when you DO NOT know exactly why things happened the way they did is lazy reactive thinking. I say thinking; I probably shouldn’t because that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process at all. Assumption!

*Of course, all of that said, turning up and not knowing the minutiae isn’t a crime. Asking isn’t a crime, and it’s better than keeping quiet and contributing to the failure. If this is you, there’s plenty of help and guides now available, so do your best to get stuck in. If you still fail, try to identify what YOU did that was wrong, and arm yourself with better knowledge for next time. That is, if the people from the above reasons don’t make you want to kill yourself or drown kittens instead.

Enough reasons, I need to go and put the kettle on. But to sum up:

Why on earth do you think it’s acceptable to berate other people? How does this make the experience better? Do you feel better for it? Is your life that terrible that’s what you need to do to feel good about yourself? If so, that’s why events will fail. Well done, you.

Owning up to responsibilities probably shouldn’t happen in an online game, but here’s a learning opportunity for all.

sigh

goes to kettle

awaits flames… but not from kettle

Thank you for writing this, it sums up how I feel perfectly.

As much potential as the marionette fight has, it is ruined by being poorly tuned for the game in which it resides. If they want to get people used to more difficult content, it should be done gradually, not by throwing people into the deep end and then watching as the few who know best how to swim hurl insults at the ones who are drowning.

I might be more on the hardcore side of the spectrum (as in – i do care about the mechanics and encounters, try to understand them, and try to manage my assets rather than just spam 1 and wait for stuff to die), but i do not consider the Marionette encounter to be ‘the deep end’. It’s fairly simple unless you’re trying to get the dodge achievements, which is absolutely optional. The fights in general and the lane defences are easy, are not dps races except for the fifth Warden, and do not rely on instagib mechanics except for the easily-visible bombs of the third Warden.

If someone is new and it’s their first time, just say so on /m. I would be more than happy to whisper someone or even party up and explain the bits, suggest which Warden to tackle, and provide tips on how to do it. I even ask people who’s new and would use a tip or two, but i never got a reply to that yet, be it on my home GH, on an overflow, or while guesting to three servers.

ellesee.8297:

i think it’s ok to blame full condi built people. especially when a worm head is at 5% and you can’t help thinking if it might’ve died if 5 people in the group contributed more than double digit dps.

Everyone seems to speak of Marionette and suddenly you come and go Wurm :P
But blame the condition builds, thank you for that
I have been playing not full but a main focus on condition build with my main since she hit level 80 and I find it to be the build I play best and handle the best. In dungeons and events with less people I usually hand out more or less most damage of all. I try to get in groups where I am alone or one of two condition dealers so am pretty proud of my build.

I like to use my main for new events and I am truly one of many players out there dealing condition damage and just becouse of that I don’t wan’t to go get me another new Ascended or atleast Exotic gear for pure damage.

Talking like that is like saying ‘I blame players becouse they do not play Guardians’.

Ceridwen.6703:

facepalm

After reading one too many posts insulting players for failures, Ceridwen finally loses it. You have been warned.

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

Why are we all to blame?

There are several reasons, which include but are not limited to, the following (mentally tick the one which most applies to you, or tick all that apply if you feel you are deserving of more):

*Assuming people have played the content before, that each and every one knows exactly what to do at all times. Because they must have and must do, because you do!

*Assuming you have no part in educating the people on your run with exactly what to do. Your failure to communicate your knowledge has grossly let your side down. Give yourself a pat on the back for your non-contribution! Excellent.

*Assuming that it’s okay to insult and belittle people in-game and on forums when there are failures. You lower morale, and in doing so, set yourself and others up for future failures. Well played, you.

*Assuming every player has a maxed-out character taking part, just because your own character is!

*You think everyone should have the event down perfectly after one or two attempts because you have? If you think they should, well done! That’s another assumption and you are clearly a professional. Someone should be paying you for your time.

*Yes, players who fail may well be at fault too, but immediately shifting blame when you DO NOT know exactly why things happened the way they did is lazy reactive thinking. I say thinking; I probably shouldn’t because that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process at all. Assumption!

*Of course, all of that said, turning up and not knowing the minutiae isn’t a crime. Asking isn’t a crime, and it’s better than keeping quiet and contributing to the failure. If this is you, there’s plenty of help and guides now available, so do your best to get stuck in. If you still fail, try to identify what YOU did that was wrong, and arm yourself with better knowledge for next time. That is, if the people from the above reasons don’t make you want to kill yourself or drown kittens instead.

Enough reasons, I need to go and put the kettle on. But to sum up:

Why on earth do you think it’s acceptable to berate other people? How does this make the experience better? Do you feel better for it? Is your life that terrible that’s what you need to do to feel good about yourself? If so, that’s why events will fail. Well done, you.

Owning up to responsibilities probably shouldn’t happen in an online game, but here’s a learning opportunity for all.

sigh

goes to kettle

awaits flames… but not from kettle

+1 For this one. Sums up everything nicely

Players who champ train all day should stay in the champ train IMHO. simple as that.

Doesn’t matter what profession you are. If you are bad at the content you are bad. I see a lot of posts saying rangers are completely useless. That is a load of crap. The player behind the monitor playing the ranger is useless.

There is nothing wrong with the ranger profession. It is very capable of dealing enough damage and killing any of the types of wardens. How do I know this? I have all of the living story achievements and I used the ranger to get them.

As a developer said in a past post, the overall community needs to up their game to complete bosses like these. Marionette is no where near the difficulty of Liadri.

Conversely, Liadri was faceroll easy with a condimancer prepared for some extra dodging and with nigh-maxed condi damage :p

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

As a developer said in a past post, the overall community needs to up their game to complete bosses like these.

Actually there is no real reason why that needs to happen. It’s a completely arbitrary decision based on an arbitrary assumption, and flies in the face of the reason most GW2 players are here in the first place.

Qaelyn.7612:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

As a developer said in a past post, the overall community needs to up their game to complete bosses like these.

Actually there is no real reason why that needs to happen. It’s a completely arbitrary decision based on an arbitrary assumption, and flies in the face of the reason most GW2 players are here in the first place.

So even a tiny challenge such as Marionette is too much for the player base?

drkn.3429:

Conversely, Liadri was faceroll easy with a condimancer prepared for some extra dodging and with nigh-maxed condi damage :p

yes , unless you were told that was how you could beat her , you didnt beat her the first time.

Fights like these are a learning experience. It may only take 2 tries for some gifted people. For others it could take a million years. Some have the talent, some don’t.

Juunro.7082:

If they are not to blame for their own complete lack of basic competence causing the rest of us to fail an event and thus get dramatically lower loot, then who is?

People who designed this event to hinge on the weakest link, made the skill level required just high enough for an Average Joe to pass, forgetting that in a large group there will be (by definition, and laws of statistics) some people that are below average.

Any event that depends on the weakest link to succeed, in which you cannot control the participants, deserves to fail.

ellesee.8297:

i think it’s ok to blame full condi built people. especially when a worm head is at 5% and you can’t help thinking if it might’ve died if 5 people in the group contributed more than double digit dps.

Those condi people are often the ones that kept the husks from facestomping everyone else trying to do the mechanic. Without them, you probably wouldn’t have even gotten to the second head phase.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

Qaelyn.7612:

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

As a developer said in a past post, the overall community needs to up their game to complete bosses like these.

Actually there is no real reason why that needs to happen. It’s a completely arbitrary decision based on an arbitrary assumption, and flies in the face of the reason most GW2 players are here in the first place.

So even a tiny challenge such as Marionette is too much for the player base?

I can’t answer that question. I’m just saying that there’s no reason we “need” to work up to bosses like these. It’s fine if that’s what the devs want, but then they have to deal with the consequences.

First of all its the challenge of everyone doing their part in the marionette event that makes the event interesting. I am sure it has encouraged a great many players to improve their skills especially in dodging.

Players playing this game must make a continuous effort to IMPROVE in it. That’s how you should play the game and that’s how you should be in REAL LIFE.

If you do not want to make any effort to improve then certainly you deserve to be criticised etc etc……

Had this event been made easier with allowing the pro players to help/do every boss….it would have a terrifying effect on the game economy (which has already been affected by the event in its current state).

Kageru.9124:

The acrimony and growth in hostility was inevitable at the design stage… challenging content only works with a set group in a controlled environment where you can work together to improve. It doesn’t suit a public encounter with a shifting cast in a casual game.

Plus the more hardcore will finish off their achievements and move on (they’re goal oriented after all) causing the event to either be abandoned or the skill level to drop.

Pretty much what happened to my server. Its pretty much a constant fail since we don’t have the numbers. I’ve done all achievements but two of the dodges and even though I like the fight, I know my participation in the event is dwindling down (which is mainly due to home server not having numbers, and the kitten overflow to overflow to overflow to network error when I try to guest on a higher tier server).
Though now we’re trying to get it going again as a starting point for doing Teq (again) and possibly the wurm.

Randall.7306:

I think there is some fault in developers when your game needs to be learned outside the game itself, search the internets to read the event and which weapon sets someone else decided are the best ones etc…

All this should be possible to be learned in-game. Or just design the entire game to be mysterious and to need to search stuff elsewhere.

But these things can be learned in game regarding the marionette. Each champ has a little bit of text underneath their vitals. How else do you think other people figured out how to beat them? Blind luck? No. They were attentive. They read what was going on regarding the event in the event text.

Failing looking at the champs or event status yourself, map chat is usually full of instructions, at least on my server and the overflows I’ve seen. The information is there. For some reason, a segment of the population is unable to utilise it or refuses to do so.

Ceridwen.6703:

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

No, just no.

Honestly your post is just the opposite extreme of those who rage over the fails. And a serious LOL about your ‘failure to communicate’ comment. I’ve never seen so much communication about a fight in map chat before.. up to 30 minutes before it starts and with constant constructive directions and tips during the fight. Loads of organising going on to get the correct numbers in each lane. Each warden being explained in detail before and during the fight. Instructions reiterated numerous times. Coaxing, motivating and encouraging each other, etc… yet I’ve still seen chain 2 failed three, yes three! times in a row on my server as of yesterday. That is blatant responsibility falling on the shoulders of specific people who are not cooperating with the group since it would seem they’ve completely ignored all the tips and instruction they were given.. or they’re outright trolling. There have been people going above and beyond. Yet you’re going to bad mouth those people and say they’re at fault too. Just, no.

Chewablesleeptablet.3185:

So even a tiny challenge such as Marionette is too much for the player base?

I hate to say it, but in some ways, yes.

For the last year and some months, almost all of the content in the game could be DPS’ed to the ground without having to really think about what you are doing. Even WvW was all about who can put out the most damage in the shortest amount of time.

Along comes the Marionette and all of a sudden, people have to change their play style in order to coordinate a successful run. The majority of the Zerker Zergs are having toruble with it. They’ll get it eventually, but in the meantime, they have to relearn how to do things like mitigate damage, remove conditions, support the other players and still manage to put out enough damage to kill the bosses.

I am not saying that the “DPS is King” play style is wrong, I am just saying that after being used to doing it that way for over a year means it will take time to learn other ways of doing it.

I don’t think the Marionette is “too much” for anyone. I do think that its one of the best designed events they have released so far. You can’t just waltz in and spam 1111161111 and expect to win. It’s hard to break old habits and learn new things, so yeah, blaming other players only shows one’s unwillingness to be responsible for their own self.

I’m somewhere in the middle, while is is never appropriate to berate and insult people in the same event, I do think it is fair to lay blame on a small percentage of people who just collapse under the event. If you went into a dungeon with a group and one of the players was consistantly going down and ignoring any/all suggestions from the rest of the party, they are certainly no free of blame. That is what this event is on a much larger scale.

However, you shouldn’t expect players who don’t do fractals or dungeons to run to an open world event and suddenly know how the mechanics work nor that they are going to think to change up their traits or skills for the boss they are facing. And if they aren’t used to different builds, then learning right in the middle of a boss battle will not be helpful.

I think there is a solutions that the developers can add to help with this. One idea would be to have training lane boss events running in the down time between each of the marionette events. Event pops up and people can run in and experience the boss, maybe change their build between attempts, and just practice to be prepared for when it really started. That way there would hopefully be more successful events without having to make the bosses any easier. The developers might even be able to make them even more of a challenge even.

It wouldn’t however change the people who are only interested in show up for just the main event before vanishing, but given the number of people that stand around waiting for the event, I thinkt that would be a good way to work towards raising the skill set of the players.

Lothirieth.3408:

Randall.7306:

I think there is some fault in developers when your game needs to be learned outside the game itself, search the internets to read the event and which weapon sets someone else decided are the best ones etc...

All this should be possible to be learned in-game. Or just design the entire game to be mysterious and to need to search stuff elsewhere.

But these things can be learned in game regarding the marionette. Each champ has a little bit of text underneath their vitals. How else do you think other people figured out how to beat them? Blind luck? No. They were attentive. They read what was going on regarding the event in the event text.

Failing looking at the champs or event status yourself, map chat is usually full of instructions, at least on my server and the overflows I’ve seen. The information is there. For some reason, a segment of the population is unable to utilise it or refuses to do so.

Ceridwen.6703:

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

No, just no.

Honestly your post is just the opposite extreme of those who rage over the fails. And a serious LOL about your ’failure to communicate’ comment. I’ve never seen so much communication about a fight in map chat before.. up to 30 minutes before it starts and with constant constructive directions and tips during the fight. Loads of organising going on to get the correct numbers in each lane. Each warden being explained in detail before and during the fight. Instructions reiterated numerous times. Coaxing, motivating and encouraging each other, etc... yet I’ve still seen chain 2 failed three, yes three! times in a row on my server as of yesterday. That is blatant responsibility falling on the shoulders of specific people who are not cooperating with the group since it would seem they’ve completely ignored all the tips and instruction they were given.. or they’re outright trolling. There have been people going above and beyond. Yet you’re going to bad mouth those people and say they’re at fault too. Just, no.

I don’t doubt there’s communication before the event. I don’t doubt there’s every chance people aren’t listening, or perhaps not understanding. You did note, I hope, the part where I mention people should be looking at how to do this in advance, that trying to kitten where they have failed themselves is important to take on to the next attempt?

Also, we must accept that no amount of explanation, guides and other preparation is the same as being right in the line of fire. It helps, but it’s not foolproof.

I wonder: did you happen to converse with those people who you deemed to have failed? Did they perhaps spend 30, 40 seconds in a loading screen hitherto unheard of, and downed almost immediately, then tried to get up and orient themselves and got downed again? Did they have graphical issues (reports of the camera being a problem are about, and I’ve suffered that the once myself). If any of those are the cause, then having a go at the player(s) serves no purpose other than to decrease morale. Which in turn, adds to potential future failures. But I think I made that point already.

If it was their attempt for the first or second time, you must realise that not everyone has the inherent skills that others possess at their disposal. Have a little empathy. It is not necessarily their fault. Then again, it could be. If you don’t take a little time to privately and politely inquire afterward, then how do you know? Yeah, you’re putting yourself on the line if you do that, but if not, you’re assuming someone is guilty of something without having a chance to defend themselves.

My post was providing possible causes for failure which many may not have considered, because there have been repeatedly cruel posts and map chat entries which are not warranted. They are pre-emptive attacks. This is what I’m taking issue with, and what the original intent, I believe, of this particular thread is.

EDIT: Really? the filter won’t allow "kitten"? Good grief.
EDIT 2: Okay, it really won’t allow it. The word is synonymous with evaluate or appraise, and also begins with an "a" and is almost like a donkey. *sigh*

There’s basically 3 ways to handle this kind of thing.

1 – let bad players ruin the event for everyone else – current situation, bad
2 – separate the good players from the bad players, ex. instanced content – would work but also would be against the spirit of GW2 in my opinion, so still bad
3 – let the good players carry the bad players, in this example this could be done by letting platforms that win their fight help out others, or by working with an acceptable margin of error, for example if only 3 platforms had to finish to sever the chain successfully. – what Anet should aim for going forward.

Maybe this could be done with additional rewards for individual contribution in addition to group completion rewards as a motivation to actually try and do well.

Ceridwen.6703:

facepalm

After reading one too many posts insulting players for failures, Ceridwen finally loses it. You have been warned.

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

Why are we all to blame?

There are several reasons, which include but are not limited to, the following (mentally tick the one which most applies to you, or tick all that apply if you feel you are deserving of more):

*Assuming people have played the content before, that each and every one knows exactly what to do at all times. Because they must have and must do, because you do!

*Assuming you have no part in educating the people on your run with exactly what to do. Your failure to communicate your knowledge has grossly let your side down. Give yourself a pat on the back for your non-contribution! Excellent.

*Assuming that it’s okay to insult and belittle people in-game and on forums when there are failures. You lower morale, and in doing so, set yourself and others up for future failures. Well played, you.

*Assuming every player has a maxed-out character taking part, just because your own character is!

*You think everyone should have the event down perfectly after one or two attempts because you have? If you think they should, well done! That’s another assumption and you are clearly a professional. Someone should be paying you for your time.

*Yes, players who fail may well be at fault too, but immediately shifting blame when you DO NOT know exactly why things happened the way they did is lazy reactive thinking. I say thinking; I probably shouldn’t because that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process at all. Assumption!

*Of course, all of that said, turning up and not knowing the minutiae isn’t a crime. Asking isn’t a crime, and it’s better than keeping quiet and contributing to the failure. If this is you, there’s plenty of help and guides now available, so do your best to get stuck in. If you still fail, try to identify what YOU did that was wrong, and arm yourself with better knowledge for next time. That is, if the people from the above reasons don’t make you want to kill yourself or drown kittens instead.

Enough reasons, I need to go and put the kettle on. But to sum up:

Why on earth do you think it’s acceptable to berate other people? How does this make the experience better? Do you feel better for it? Is your life that terrible that’s what you need to do to feel good about yourself? If so, that’s why events will fail. Well done, you.

Owning up to responsibilities probably shouldn’t happen in an online game, but here’s a learning opportunity for all.

sigh

goes to kettle

awaits flames… but not from kettle

^
You sir, are amazing and I hope to run in an event with you one day

Soren.9316:

^
You sir, are amazing and I hope to run in an event with you one day

Well, that’s Mrs., but I’ll take sir just this once!

Shinzan.2908:

There’s basically 3 ways to handle this kind of thing.

1 – let bad players ruin the event for everyone else – current situation, bad
2 – separate the good players from the bad players, ex. instanced content – would work but also would be against the spirit of GW2 in my opinion, so still bad
3 – let the good players carry the bad players, in this example this could be done by letting platforms that win their fight help out others, or by working with an acceptable margin of error, for example if only 3 platforms had to finish to sever the chain successfully. – what Anet should aim for going forward.

4 – do your best, try to help people, and accept that you’re going to fail most of the time unless you’re on a good server in a packed instance, because this event’s design guarantees that will happen.

Ceridwen.6703:

Soren.9316:

^
You sir, are amazing and I hope to run in an event with you one day

Well, that’s Mrs., but I’ll take sir just this once!

lol, mah bad ^^’
(yay to more bad kitten chicks in the game <- I’m one too)

I havn’t touched the new bosses yet, so my opinion may not mean much. I’ll probably skip Marionette simply because from the sounds of it, it’s just too much of a headache and reliance on other players. I don’t intend to tackle the Jungle Worm until people get good enough at it that beating it is a foregone conclusion.

From the sounds of it though, it seems these 2 bosses are better off instanced. It would also be nice if you can enter the instance as a “group” or “raid party” as to control who goes in with you, so at least then you have a much better chance at winning. On the same note, make an open world version that’s much easier and less of a headache.

At what point then is it acceptable to attribute failure to an individuals inability to play the game and learn?

I feel like the carebears who advocate for people to be nice all the time and just accept other peoples constant failure are just enablers, letting people tell themselves that it isnt actually their fault and the players telling them otherwise are just jerks. This game needs MORE events like this, not less.

Anecdotally, I had a player on my platform that refused to kite Warden II. No matter how much we asked him to kite, explained it to him and tried to be nice, he would respond with “kitten you, dont tell me how to play!”. Are we supposed to just say, oh ok special snowflake, we understand. This must be our fault??

displacedTitan.6897:

At what point then is it acceptable to attribute failure to an individuals inability to play the game and learn?

I feel like the carebears who advocate for people to be nice all the time and just accept other peoples constant failure are just enablers, letting people tell themselves that it isnt actually their fault and the players telling them otherwise are just jerks. This game needs MORE events like this, not less.

Anecdotally, I had a player on my platform that refused to kite Warden II. No matter how much we asked him to kite, explained it to him and tried to be nice, he would respond with “kitten you, dont tell me how to play!”. Are we supposed to just say, oh ok special snowflake, we understand. This must be our fault??

Mm. No, advocating for people not to be kittens after events isn’t enabling people to intentionally not improve themselves. If they think they don’t have to put in some effort, they’re simply not being honest with themselves. Saying nothing, however, and letting people get picked on after events is enabling. The spiteful comments which come surrounding this type of event is what we’re chiefly discussing. I’m asking for people to stop and take a moment in serious reflective thought, before the abuse happens.

If you have to speak with a player about performance, by all means speak with them. Constructively. Tactfully. Privately. Please again note where I say everyone should attempt to acquire information on the event ahead of running it, but I certainly wouldn’t expect everyone to. It would be immensely helpful to have foreknowledge, but again, it’s not a foolproof method. There can and will be failures. Review accurately and without bias. Accept, renew resolve and move on.

Still, this is why your anecdote is useful, however (and I love the phrase “special snowflake”, as it happens. It never fails to bring a smile). It seems like it wouldn’t be your fault, and clearly it’s hard in such a situation to find out what the other player’s real deal is. The rest of you on the platform are in a spot and it’s not an easy one to think out of – aside from just letting him die of course, and another of you kiting instead. Which is a risk. We do have to accept there’s going to be some players out there that come off badly. We don’t have to like it, either. But what we don’t do is call insults on map chat or any forum about the guy in a cruel way. Even if it seems they deserve it (they don’t, no one ever does). As I’ve just said, you can have a quiet word if you really must – which takes more nerve, I think, than using map chat – and maybe you won’t get anywhere. Maybe you will. Perhaps you’ll find out the player was having a truly terrible RL day, and thought to get over it by being in game. Then felt harrassed (albeit unduly in truth). Perhaps they really shouldn’t have played that day (and I do think, if you’re feeling angry, fed up, sad or just down in general, group events may not be a good idea as you may end up just feeling worse). Perhaps they feel a total moron for screwing it up so royally. Maybe thereafter you help them make amends. Yes, I’m throwing a lot of random scenarios out there, but life isn’t black and white. It’s mostly variations of grey (no 50 shades jokes, please). Understanding that will help a lot of us get on with working through these events successfully. Without that, and working on pure bile, they will invariably fail.

drkn.3429:

zenleto.6179:

leman.7682:

I had a bearbow who died in first 5 seconds after getting on platform.
The rest of the group rushed to rez him in a bomb and wiped in no time.

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

Warden 3? Its not hard to load into a bomb if it takes too long. Not much excuse for the ones that didn’t wait for the bombs to clear though. I bet they don’t do it again. Or hope, at least.

Every time i enter the portal, i do what i can to enter it prepared. On guardian, i pop aegis before hitting F to port. On other toons – if i can, i pop protection; whether i do or not, i frantically spam my dodge key while loading so that i have a chance to dodge something i couldn’t prepare myself for, be it some sort of AoE from the Marionette, a Warden’s attack, or a bomb.
It really isn’t that hard and it actually saved me two times.

You’re right, it isn’t hard. But there do seem to be some peculiarities with this event that can cause a fail or just hurt a player’s own chances of personal success. You can be as prepared as you like but sometimes kitten happens.

Coehati.1096:

Ceridwen.6703:

facepalm

After reading one too many posts insulting players for failures, Ceridwen finally loses it. You have been warned.

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

Why are we all to blame?

There are several reasons, which include but are not limited to, the following (mentally tick the one which most applies to you, or tick all that apply if you feel you are deserving of more):

*Assuming people have played the content before, that each and every one knows exactly what to do at all times. Because they must have and must do, because you do!

*Assuming you have no part in educating the people on your run with exactly what to do. Your failure to communicate your knowledge has grossly let your side down. Give yourself a pat on the back for your non-contribution! Excellent.

*Assuming that it’s okay to insult and belittle people in-game and on forums when there are failures. You lower morale, and in doing so, set yourself and others up for future failures. Well played, you.

*Assuming every player has a maxed-out character taking part, just because your own character is!

*You think everyone should have the event down perfectly after one or two attempts because you have? If you think they should, well done! That’s another assumption and you are clearly a professional. Someone should be paying you for your time.

*Yes, players who fail may well be at fault too, but immediately shifting blame when you DO NOT know exactly why things happened the way they did is lazy reactive thinking. I say thinking; I probably shouldn’t because that doesn’t appear to be involved in the process at all. Assumption!

*Of course, all of that said, turning up and not knowing the minutiae isn’t a crime. Asking isn’t a crime, and it’s better than keeping quiet and contributing to the failure. If this is you, there’s plenty of help and guides now available, so do your best to get stuck in. If you still fail, try to identify what YOU did that was wrong, and arm yourself with better knowledge for next time. That is, if the people from the above reasons don’t make you want to kill yourself or drown kittens instead.

Enough reasons, I need to go and put the kettle on. But to sum up:

Why on earth do you think it’s acceptable to berate other people? How does this make the experience better? Do you feel better for it? Is your life that terrible that’s what you need to do to feel good about yourself? If so, that’s why events will fail. Well done, you.

Owning up to responsibilities probably shouldn’t happen in an online game, but here’s a learning opportunity for all.

sigh

goes to kettle

awaits flames… but not from kettle

Thank you for writing this, it sums up how I feel perfectly.

Double ditto for this. My server has managed to beat the marionette several times now. One thing we have had is people or commanders putting out info regarding what is coming and the boss mechanics being discussed while we are waiting with people answering questions and providing suggestions. We also had a lot and gave a lot of encouragement throughout the entire event. I do believe folk fought harder because of that. Not all of the platforms were perfect runs of each boss and at least two times we went right down to the wire before severing the last chain – the main thing is everyone was trying to do their best and that is all you can ever ask of anyone.