Guild Wars 2

HoD has beat it several times last week and a few times over the weekend, but now the last few days we are doing really bad, why?

Serveral reasons. Most of the heavy core left when they got the meta. We are still getting a hard capped server but the new people in are first timers again so we have to teach them all over again. I think we are also starting to get the trolls, Warden 2 was messed up so many times its hard to think that people dont know what they are doing when for the last 30 min we constantly told them what to expect and right before they go in we tell them what to do.

I also know on HoD we try and get as many people as possible on teamspeak, we dont care if you dont have a mic. We want people on so we can tell them what to do faster, fill in hard areas, and if a platform is having issues we can help by telling them what they need to do to fix it. It also helps and we send encouragement over teamspeak easier and faster than typing it. Once the event ends we talk about what went wrong and how to fix it for the next event. 90% of what we talk about does not make it to map chat. Talking is faster and easier.

I do like the marionette I really do, but I think there needs to be a way to keep people playing large events like this after getting the meta. It seems like they get the meta and they are done. Time to move on to something else.

Ceridwen.6703:

facepalm

After reading one too many posts insulting players for failures, Ceridwen finally loses it. You have been warned.

Who’s responsible for an event (specifically the marionette) failing?

I’m responsible, you’re responsible, we’re ALL sodding responsible. Yes, everyone taking part is at fault. Co-operation is the nature of this event.

Why are we all to blame?

Much more text then is necessary to quote fully here

This if very often demonstrably false. This idea that everyone is at fault because it is a cooperative event. I have yet to be in a single instance of this fight where in the 5 minutes before the start, someone doesn’t out-right explain every single boss in easy terms. In better then 90% of cases, the Commander in the lane I am in does it again on /say right after the last chain was severed.

If these people cannot read what is being said, why are they on a US server? If they will NOT read what is being said, why are they playing a cooperative game? There is no excuse at this point. First day? Sure. First day of the first weekend? Sure. One or two people messing up? Sure. A whole platform wiping? No. No excuse for that.

I am going to now bash GW2 slightly: know that I actually do quite love this game.

This game is easy. It is; it’s hardcore content is extremely limited. It’s encounters largely do not require extensive use of tactics or tactics discussion. Even it’s very hard content pales in comparison to some other MMO’s out there.

The Marionette is relatively difficult content as far as GW2 is concerned in that it is content that cannot be facerolled. I had a buddy sign into GW2 for the first time in 6 months the other day and asked him, apropos of nothing, if he wanted to check out the new boss. He was playing a ranger. I explained the basic mechanics, he came with, and he flawlessly beat both lane 2 and then lane 5, going so far as to even make sure to control his pet in lane 5 so the stacking tactic worked. This is someone who hadn’t played the game in 6 months and who had never seen the encounter before in person.

This buddy is a veteran MMO player, but not really in GW2. He leveled up one character to 80. He played some EQ2, alot of WoW, and some EVE. He never played any high level content in GW2 beyond a level 2 Fractal and a couple of dungeon runs. He’s not a hardcore player.

If you mess up a lane as badly as managing to wipe, it is your fault. People will be angry at you for it. Deal with it.

It’s my fault. I’ve trolled each and everyone of these events that have failed. It’s been tough and I’ve had to use multiple accounts, but I’ve succeeded.

Bwahahahaha!!

Ceridwen.6703:

Snip

This is by far the best post I’ve read about the whole topic. I am sooo sick about this constant negativity, about this blaming-game, about the picking on people and so on.

I can cope with failure, but this constant moaning of a few after a fail is dragging down the moral of the whole map.

Juunro.7082:

If you mess up a lane as badly as managing to wipe, it is your fault. People will be angry at you for it. Deal with it.

As explained, those situations I gave are not the only ones which could be factors, and it’s certainly not saying it’s all of them in any one given session – so yes! In some occasions they may not apply. That’s not really the message I’m trying to get through. Clearly I must try harder.

Okay. Once more into the breach:

My post is simply to do with the fact the name calling and insults have to stop. It’s about encouraging people to think about why there is failure other than “people are noobs and CBA to L2P.” The post was made in that styling because it hits harder than my usual ramblings. Perhaps, in hindsight, it inadvertantly swallowed the point I was trying to make.

So it’s about realising that our individual experiences are not necessarily the experiences of others and we should not judge them solely on our individual experience alone.We can only judge ourselves with that. I highlighted some situations in where using our own personal assessment criteria may not be applicable. I clearly hit home with some of you guys, and if it’s given you pause to think a little further about how people treat each other, in game or even outside of it, and even if you don’t agree with me, then that’s great.

It’s not about whether the content is easy, or hard, or a person’s gaming credentials (or lack thereof). It’s about the attitudes of people surrounding it being complicit in future failure when this behaviour is overwhelmingly negative. Simply put, those people who are getting angry are not doing themselves or anyone else any favours. This is why I went in with we’re all responsible: if we let angry comments happen, we’re responsible. If we make angry comments, we’re responsible. And this does not excuse people from not trying to make it work, either (and I’ve said this a bit over the last few posts I’ve made regarding the subject).

I really hope I’ve made it clearer if I was being overly obtuse before!

DarcShriek.5829:

It’s my fault. I’ve trolled each and everyone of these events that have failed. It’s been tough and I’ve had to use multiple accounts, but I’ve succeeded.

Bwahahahaha!!

narrows eyes

There’s a special re-education squad on its way to you right now.

Ceridwen.6703:

My post is simply to do with the fact the name calling and insults have to stop.

Then just say that instead of 2k+ words. Not that I agree with you in the slightest mind you, some people are just awful and in the world of marionette warden killing it only takes a few awful people to ruin the fruits of everyone elses labour.

Pirlipat.2479:

Ceridwen.6703:

Snip

This is by far the best post I’ve read about the whole topic. I am sooo sick about this constant negativity, about this blaming-game, about the picking on people and so on.

I can cope with failure, but this constant moaning of a few after a fail is dragging down the moral of the whole map.

I agree, if you are unhappy with the performance of your map during your last event, explain what people can do to improve their performance, go to the trading post and buy a tray of food to help, explain how the warden that failed is supposed to be fought…..offer encouraging words for the next time the fight happens and remind people when that is so that they can prepare….

…but stop with the name calling and complaining…its childish and whenever I hear someone do it the only thought that goes through my head is how the person complaining must be a teenager because they obviously are not an adult. Say something constructive or useful or leave the map and cry in your guild-chat.

Juunro.7082:

If I may be frank?

We will stop blaming other players when other players stop being to blame.

Today, we had a group manage to somehow wipe on the very first champion; the south path had a platform with 5 people on it all somehow die to this boss. Not just fail the mechanics, but fail them so hard they actually wiped.

Time and time again, myself and many, many others have been in a situation where 4 platforms of any boss have perfectly completed the fights with a full minute left and then find themselves staring across at a platform with two rangers and two thieves playing Kite the Minelaying Boss In Circles. Or a platform with all melee in zerker gear that charged into the third boss and kept chasing it in circles directly into the highly visible and easily avoidable hover bombs. Or a whole group that utterly ignored the ground AOE’s on boss 4.

And so on, and so on.

If they are not to blame for their own complete lack of basic competence causing the rest of us to fail an event and thus get dramatically lower loot, then who is?

This. Give this man some bitcoins or a medal, whatever!

Pexx.6327:

To the OP:

Uh…. what?

Seriously, though. Yes; the content is designed to be moderately challenging and requires players to utilize their classes to a better degree (and movement and damage avoidance) than normally seen. But this is not a developer problem here. It’s the exact opposite. It is completely a player competency issue.

I’ve read the response by Josh Foreman and I completely agree with his thoughts on the structure and feel of the event that was intended. We need more content that isn’t as brain-dead as 90% of the players are mucking it up to be. We need players to get better at the game. The game only stagnates if we don’t. It sounds to me like you just want this event to be another “loot pinata” affair and not a fair accomplishment that it currently is.

(Barring bugs) Does it suck that we have to rely on other players to not suck? I can see that being a yes. But, at the same time I can see that it sucks that players are not trying to get better because the community constantly tries to trivialize content by not trying to get the players to actually learn their classes and the actual mechanics of the game.

Demonizing the devs because they are wanting their players to improve (so they can bring out more fights and encounters with interesting mechanics such as the Marionette and the Great Jungle Wurm) is entirely counter-productive to the progress of the game.

Meglobob.8620:

I like marionette but with a 100 player pug your chance of success is near 0%, no matter how hard you try.

Yet we did it (and do it) on Blackgate quite constantly… so it’s not 0%.

You have all the serious players guesting on Blackgate now (and others flat out transfered there – it’s the only full server in NA). This event is dead on most servers for a good chunk of the day. Players are guesting to a handful of servers (or specifically one) and their home servers are devoid of people. I did the event yesterday on my main server and we didn’t get past lane two because there wasn’t enough people in lanes 4 and 5 to stop the champions. This is my home server.

Blackgate and similair servers are privileged to be where they are, that doesn’t absolve the content of the very real issues impacting on most other servers.

Shiren.9532:

You have all the serious players guesting on Blackgate now (and others flat out transfered there – it’s the only full server in NA). This event is dead on most servers for a good chunk of the day. Players are guesting to a handful of servers (or specifically one) and their home servers are devoid of people. I did the event yesterday on my main server and we didn’t get past lane two because there wasn’t enough people in lanes 4 and 5 to stop the champions. This is my home server.

Blackgate and similair servers are privileged to be where they are, that doesn’t absolve the content of the very real issues impacting on most other servers.

Again, this is a player issue, not a developer issue. Just because more people are on the highly populated servers doesn’t mean that players are not to blame. The players who constantly leave and guest to be on those servers are who you should be talking to.

It’s not an issue with the event. It’s an issue that players try their hardest to do the least amount of work and contribution; And, to do that they guest over to servers that have the most success to leech off that success.

Pexx.6327:

Again, this is a player issue, not a developer issue. Just because more people are on the highly populated servers doesn’t mean that players are not to blame. The players who constantly leave and guest to be on those servers are who you should be talking to.

What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and Arenanet, have no control over what other players do. Only over how the game works.

This event is a problem because it doesn’t fit well with the way the average GW2 player plays. That can be fixed, which is why it should be addressed. The other stuff cannot, so it boils down to pointless griping.

Anet says they want constructive feedback, and the most constructive way to deal with these issues is to design events that work well with players as they are, not with players as you or others wish they were.

Qaelyn.7612:

What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and Arenanet, have no control over what other players do. Only over how the game works.

That argument works both ways. What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and A.net, have no control what other players do.

A.net designed the content. The content is fine the way it is (barring bugs). It’s completable, and has been completed by every server. Just because people are not wanting to join in and work towards continuing the content, or people are not putting the effort to get better at the game, doesn’t mean you have to complain to the devs that those people aren’t putting the effort to it.

Then, in the end, people complain because A.net designs easy content that can be completed by everyone, their mother, their dog and their unborn children. Complain about it being too easy, and then they design content that is (not even that) moderately challenging, and people get mad because they can’t do it because XXX reason.

Pexx.6327:

That argument works both ways. What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and A.net, have no control what other players do.

That’s what I just said. They can’t control the players, but they can control the content. There’s a mismatch here and that means the problem is with the content.

Pexx.6327:

A.net designed the content. The content is fine the way it is (barring bugs).

This is a meaningless statement. Any content can be “fine” if it is properly matched to its intended audience and supported by functional gameplay mechanics, especially relating to grouping. This one falls short.

Pexx.6327:

It’s completable, and has been completed by every server. Just because people are not wanting to join in and work towards continuing the content, or people are not putting the effort to get better at the game, doesn’t mean you have to complain to the devs that those people aren’t putting the effort to it.

I never made any such complaint, so I really wonder why you appear to be quoting me but responding to someone else.

I mostly see people making a real effort, often to the point of becoming exasperated. The content is not properly balanced for the casual playerbase at which it is aimed, and that’s a problem Arenanet — and Arenanet only — can and should fix next time around.

Pexx.6327:

Then, in the end, people complain because A.net designs easy content that can be completed by everyone, their mother, their dog and their unborn children. Complain about it being too easy, and then they design content that is (not even that) moderately challenging, and people get mad because they can’t do it because XXX reason.

Your claim that it is “not even that moderately challenging” is categorically false. You personally may find it easy to win a platform but the design means that an overwhelming percentage of others also have to win platforms, and that’s not what is happening. I can’t remember the last time I failed on a platform personally, but I am currently somewhere around 1 for 20 on overflow runs. Most other people I know have similar experiences.

So, sorry but you are simply, flatly wrong. An event that fails most of the time cannot rationally be described as “not even moderately challenging”. Players are not going to become dramatically better at this if they haven’t after a week, and they haven’t. It’s mistuned, and it should be fixed.

thehipone.6812:

Those condi people are often the ones that kept the husks from facestomping everyone else trying to do the mechanic. Without them, you probably wouldn’t have even gotten to the second head phase.

hybrid builds can melt husks and contribute to the burn phase. my husk build necro has 3000 attack and 1320 condition damage. i’m not stuck spamming scepter attacks for 5 damage only to see none of my conditions tick for any damage because of the cap. full condition builds are just worthless in all aspects of pve which is a real shame because i like condition builds.

First of all, Ceridwen, excellent post!

Yelling at people doesnt work. Simple as that. It may make you feel good for a little while, poor you if it does, but it does not help the slightest.
You can however make someone feel unwanted, in fact I know it has, and make people stop coming. Victory eh?
I was yelled at once. I still dont know why, as I didnt die, nobody else died around me, and the champion was sent to the mist pretty quick. Still some hardcore serious top notch gamer felt the need for some yelling. Well done sir.
I see there is some talk about dodging, or the lack of it, here and elsewhere. I must confess I am very bad at dodging. I am trying to be better at it, but the problem is that you really dont need dodging until end game, and if you stick to open world pve, you maybe dont need it at all.
I have completed all pve maps on 3 chars, and except for a couple of skillpoints in orr, all soloed. Obviuosly there is luck involved, and a lot of dying, but perhaps you should be “forced” to use Dodge from quite early, before you learn to ignore it.
Just a thought.

Qaelyn.7612:

That’s what I just said. They can’t control the players, but they can control the content. There’s a mismatch here and that means the problem is with the content.

No, that isn’t the point. There is no problem with the content. The problem lies with the players who don’t want to adapt to the content because they choose to ignore how the designers intend the game to be played.

Qaelyn.7612:

This is a meaningless statement. Any content can be “fine” if it is properly matched to its intended audience and supported by functional gameplay mechanics, especially relating to grouping. This one falls short.

It doesn’t fall short. The content isn’t challenging if players took the time to actually figure out what is needed. It’s not brain science, yet players are constantly crying foul because they don’t want to learn or improve.

Qaelyn.7612:

I never made any such complaint, so I really wonder why you appear to be quoting me but responding to someone else.

Really? Because your entire argument seems to be a complaint that because players won’t learn their stuff, A.net should make easier content. Also, I’m quoting you because you quoted me. Tic-for-tat [sic].

Qaelyn.7612:

I mostly see people making a real effort, often to the point of becoming exasperated. The content is not properly balanced for the casual playerbase at which it is aimed, and that’s a problem Arenanet — and Arenanet only — can and should fix next time around.

And why are they becoming exasperated? Because the players aren’t pulling their weight. I have never seen someone pipe in map chat, “Sorry guys! The devs made that singular mechanic, that this singular encounter has, too hard that I couldn’t figure it out!” Why? Because the player would then realize that they have no clue what they are doing or that they have no clue how to play their profession.

Qaelyn.7612:

Your claim that it is “not even that moderately challenging” is categorically false. You personally may find it easy to win a platform but the design means that an overwhelming percentage of others also have to win platforms, and that’s not what is happening. I can’t remember the last time I failed on a platform personally, but I am currently somewhere around 1 for 20 on overflow runs. Most other people I know have similar experiences.

It’s not false. It literally is a singular mechanic for each of the five different stages of the platform, with a singular outside mechanic that can interfere. Most jumping puzzles have harder content mechanics. You constantly are trying to defend people that do not want to improve, because they were carried so far that they saw no reason to. And now you want to bring the content down to their level. It’s absurd!

Qaelyn.7612:

So, sorry but you are simply, flatly wrong. An event that fails most of the time cannot rationally be described as “not even moderately challenging”. Players are not going to become dramatically better at this if they haven’t after a week, and they haven’t. It’s mistuned, and it should be fixed.

Again, ask why it fails. It’s not that the content is hard. It’s not. Each of the lane defenses is brain-dead killing content. The platform portions are close to brain-dead because of their two mechanics you have to deal with. It’s the players who don’t want to deal with having to adjust to that content is why it fails. Then it keeps failing, and people decide that since people keep failing it that it isn’t worth their time. So then you can’t complete it because they leave.

It’s not a problem with the content. It’s a problem with the players. Just because those players don’t want to improve doesn’t mean that A.net should bend over backwards to cater to that crowd.

To give a fair example, it would the be same thing as a man saying, “I didn’t want to learn how to read, so all authors should make their books into audio tapes instead.”

It doesn’t matter why it fails. It fails. Nearly all the time. Even if it fails because players are this or that, I can’t change how players are, and neither can Arenanet. The only thing that can be practically changed is the content. Players who “aren’t good” will not improve by being put in a position where they fail all the time. Anyone who is a parent understands you do not expand the horizons of someone learning by frustrating them, all you do is turn them off.

My position summarized: “Most players are in failing events most of the time. This means there’s something wrong with the event, assuming the goal of this GAME is to have fun rather than feel frustrated all the time. Arenanet can resolve this by better tailoring their content to actual players and their actual abilities.”

Your position: “I personally find the content easy so there’s nothing wrong with it, the problem is the players stink. I don’t care if they feel frustrated and aren’t having fun, and I have no practical solutions to allow them to have fun, because it’s their fault for stinking.”

Which of these positions is more rational is left as an exercise for the reader.

It doesn’t take a “pro” player to rez somebody that is downed next to you.
It doesn’t take a “pro” player to follow instructions for the wardens like “don’t run away”.
So yeah, I do blame other players.

I also blame Anet for designing the platforms. There’s obviously a bug disconnecting some people when loading, otherwise we wouldn’t have full platforms and some with only 2-3 players on them. This is happening ALL THE TIME.

And I also blame Anet either for using servers that can’t handle more people or for even trying to have open world raids when they know very well what the overflow system will do (leave some people stranded on overflows with not enough people to do the event).

Qaelyn.7612:

It doesn’t matter why it fails. It fails. Nearly all the time. Even if it fails because players are this or that, I can’t change how players are, and neither can Arenanet. The only thing that can be practically changed is the content. Players who “aren’t good” will not improve by being put in a position where they fail all the time. Anyone who is a parent understands you do not expand the horizons of someone learning by frustrating them, all you do is turn them off.

My position summarized: “Most players are in failing events most of the time. This means there’s something wrong with the event, assuming the goal of this GAME is to have fun rather than feel frustrated all the time. Arenanet can resolve this by better tailoring their content to actual players and their actual abilities.”

Your position: “I personally find the content easy so there’s nothing wrong with it, the problem is the players stink. I don’t care if they feel frustrated and aren’t having fun, and I have no practical solutions to allow them to have fun, because it’s their fault for stinking.”

Which of these positions is more rational is left as an exercise for the reader.

This may come as surprise, and please do keep this a secret but: people can improve their abilities/skills.

I’ll stop blaming other players when they stop being responsible for the events failing.

I personally don’t rez players anymore unless it’s absolutely safe to do so. Besides half of the players cause more problems when they’re alive anyway, the second champion for example.

Also myself as well as many others have explained the champion mechanics time and time again. But it just doesn’t sink in with some people.

Adam.4103:

I personally don’t rez players anymore unless it’s absolutely safe to do so. Besides half of the players cause more problems when they’re alive anyway, the second champion for example.

Also myself as well as many others have explained the champion mechanics time and time again. But it just doesn’t sink in with some people.

And you’re not to blame? If you can’t carry your platform of ‘bads,’ you’re not all that good a player yourself. Give yourself a pat on the back, mate!

Oh, and it’s “Also, many others and I…” or less strict “Also, I and many others…” ‘Myself’ is used as the object of a verb or preposition to refer to yourself after you have already been mentioned, never as the subject! E.g. I make a fool of myself on a public forum.

displacedTitan.6897:

At what point then is it acceptable to attribute failure to an individuals inability to play the game and learn?

I feel like the carebears who advocate for people to be nice all the time and just accept other peoples constant failure are just enablers, letting people tell themselves that it isnt actually their fault and the players telling them otherwise are just jerks. This game needs MORE events like this, not less.

Anecdotally, I had a player on my platform that refused to kite Warden II. No matter how much we asked him to kite, explained it to him and tried to be nice, he would respond with “kitten you, dont tell me how to play!”. Are we supposed to just say, oh ok special snowflake, we understand. This must be our fault??

This post needs to be quoted for truth.

There is nothing wrong with being inexperienced. The problem lies with the lack of will to learn and improve. GW2 game design promotes such attitude with zerg fest, #1 spam and other similar skill-less gameplay being generously rewarded. Those who put effort into being better players will suffer on open world events like Tequatl or Marionette – because despite their hard work, the event may fail due to a few careless individuals.

People have to learn that things ingame are exactly the same as in IRL when it comes down to mentality: “It’s always someone else’s fault and not mine”. U will never remove that mentality as it’s in our DNA to not accept personal failure easy.

Deal with it by ignoring those ppl. ANet gave u that option ingame. Use it.

Qaelyn.7612:

My position summarized: “Most players are in failing events most of the time. This means there’s something wrong with the event, assuming the goal of this GAME is to have fun rather than feel frustrated all the time. Arenanet can resolve this by better tailoring their content to actual players and their actual abilities.”

Your position: “I personally find the content easy so there’s nothing wrong with it, the problem is the players stink. I don’t care if they feel frustrated and aren’t having fun, and I have no practical solutions to allow them to have fun, because it’s their fault for stinking.”

Alternatively, your position can be read as: “This content doesn’t coddle the least skilled elements of the playerbase, therefor it is poorly designed. Everyone ought to be able to do it with no effort whatsoever.”

And our position can be read as: “This content requires a modicum or ability to know and play your class and further, requires the players involved to be able to use some of the most basic skills involved with any MMO: eg, reading and using basic mechanics.”

I mean, if we want to talk about hyperbole, anyway.

Most players are certainly not failing this content most of the time though. As I have said over and over, most players that I have seen are succeeding the part of the event that they have been able to influence themselves. It is ludicrous to assume that when ninety percent of a group succeeds at something and then is forced to watch the remaining ten percent fail, and thus fail it for everyone that those ten percent won’t have vitriol tossed their way. This is especially true when those ten percent consistently fail it the same ways, after being instructed politely over and over and over again.

People aren’t really all that angry at the failure, they are angry at the total lack of investment of effort on behalf of those who fail.

Sometimes people just ARE to blame.

I don’t blame developers: they are finally giving us content that isn’t a mindless zergfest/grindfest, has some interesting mechanics and is, when played right, very fun and rewarding to beat. Bad players are the only ones to blame.

I had a marionette try today, my group did good on warden 2 so I had enough time to watch carefully how the platform next to mine was failing hard. There were 2 deads, one light armor downed and a guardian and a warrior. Guardian and warrior were running in circles with scepter and rifle respectively, even while the boss was stunned by it’s own mines. They weren’t even trying to res and of course they weren’t dealing any damage so eventually the downed died and they failed, the only platform to do so, because of time limit.

People refuse to improve. Some time ago I had to drop shout builds when I needed to be more effective and gone zerker, even if I found my old build funnier to play. A lot of people just don’t care, they expect to be carried.

You just cannot avoid anger when you see people not listening, not resurrecting downed, not carrying quick-res skills in an environment that demands them badly and the commanders shout on map to do so, playing selfishly, not boon sharing for the classes that are able to, not doing damage because they play ranged to be safer and, in general, not doing anything to contribute to the success of the event. I can’t avoid being angry at the selfishness of people.

Don’t give me the “it’s everyone’s fault” crap. I never failed a platform. I saved the day more than once with warbanner and I got used to carry people on my team. I bring damage and boons to improve the party damage. I don’t yell at people even when they fail hard because I like to be polite ingame and I try to be as helpful as I can. I root for people to encourage them. I give advises and suggestions. I’m not the best player out there but I put as much effort as I can to play at the best of my abilities to ensure success for me and for the other 124 persons that are playing with me. And since I’m no way a pro anybody could do as good as I do if only they tried.

But I can’t tutor every single player on the map on what build to use, even if I had enough time at my disposal some people play classes I’m bad at, and besides some people wont’ listen and won’t accept any advice out of arrogance and pride. I can’t carry other platforms. I can’t dodge for other players. I can’t force people to leave a lane to reinforce another one.

Nevertheless, I don’t blame anybody for being bad or for not wanting to improve. It’s perfectly fine to stand and autoattack if your only activities are to wander maps and champ train or in general playing content where you won’t hinder other players. However, I DO balme them for joining an activity where your sole incompetence can cause 124 persons to fail and waste their time, not caring at all about others. Don’t want to contribute in a meaningful way? Fine, don’t participate then.

I haven’t been a big fan of the LS, only complete all ap on just a few. The puppet. I did enjoy. Fortunately I was able to get all I wanted from this event the first few day. Missed a couple of days went back and seen it was in somewhat a different state at the first.
The behavior of some towards the less experience has greatly increased. I understand being frustrated when people are either lazy or don’t care to learn thus causing a fail.
But some people will never learn, insulting others will certainly have the opposite results of what they wish to accomplish. Lets be honest, if people talked to you in that manner. Would it encourage you to improve? Or would it give you the attitude of “screw you” to the person doing the insulting.

I could be wrong on this part, I often wonder when anet does their testing, I would think they would use experience players. Players that are more than willing to work as a team. Player that have knowledge of the mechanics of their skills and the event.

Then turn around dump the event on a population of people that are no where near that accomplished. There will always be some in the group that simply just do not care. Causing grief for those who do.

In the end it is the players fault that run around in green, yellow or even exotic gear. Get ascended armor (berserker stats) or go home.
If you are not 80, log out when the event starts and be a burden for some random overflow. Or better, port to another map.

This is a raid event and it needs the coordination and effort of a raid encounter. If you can not contributing enough, you hinder the other players in their progress. Go away.

I heard stuff like that during the fight left and right. If that is what ANet wants for their LS, they should create more raid events in the open world. GG…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

I heard stuff like that during the fight left and right. If that is what ANet wants for their LS, they should create more raid events in the open world. GG…

Yupyup. From ‘play the way you want’ to Hardcore-Casual wars. Well played, Anet. Well played, indeed.

KyreneZA.8617:

Adam.4103:

I personally don’t rez players anymore unless it’s absolutely safe to do so. Besides half of the players cause more problems when they’re alive anyway, the second champion for example.

Also myself as well as many others have explained the champion mechanics time and time again. But it just doesn’t sink in with some people.

And you’re not to blame? If you can’t carry your platform of ‘bads,’ you’re not all that good a player yourself. Give yourself a pat on the back, mate!

Oh, and it’s “Also, many others and I…” or less strict “Also, I and many others…” ‘Myself’ is used as the object of a verb or preposition to refer to yourself after you have already been mentioned, never as the subject! E.g. I make a fool of myself on a public forum.

And where did I say it was my platform specifically that fails? Assuming things on a public forum just makes you look foolish…

Picking apart someone’s grammar is just another way to announce that you actually have no argument.

Ceridwen.6703:

I wonder: did you happen to converse with those people who you deemed to have failed?

Deemed? If they kited warden two in wide circles, they most obviously did the wrong thing and did not pay attention to the mass amount of help that was given in map chat and during the fight. And yes, I’ve sent direct whispers to people who were not kiting that warden into its mines. That is the only fight where it is obvious what a person may be doing wrong and therefore be able to specifically help an individual. The others, it’s not so possible imo.

Did they perhaps spend 30, 40 seconds in a loading screen hitherto unheard of, and downed almost immediately, then tried to get up and orient themselves and got downed again? Did they have graphical issues (reports of the camera being a problem are about, and I’ve suffered that the once myself). If any of those are the cause, then having a go at the player(s) serves no purpose other than to decrease morale. Which in turn, adds to potential future failures. But I think I made that point already.

My previous post dealt pretty much wholly with warden two which is mostly free of these issues you’re listing. It is also, along with warden one, one that possesses the most straightforward tactics.

If it was their attempt for the first or second time, you must realise that not everyone has the inherent skills that others possess at their disposal. Have a little empathy. It is not necessarily their fault. Then again, it could be. If you don’t take a little time to privately and politely inquire afterward, then how do you know? Yeah, you’re putting yourself on the line if you do that, but if not, you’re assuming someone is guilty of something without having a chance to defend themselves.

Excuse me, but you don’t know me or what feelings I may or may not possess. Do not berate me and tell me to have empathy. I am completely understanding of different level of skills. Lack of knowledge of specific fights is completely forgivable as well. So is not immediately picking up on tactics. I don’t think it’s fair to expect people to go to Dulfy or something and read up on tactics. I do think it is fair however, to expect people to read map chat and pay attention to the guidance being offered there. When one sees warden two failed three times in a row or observe someone kiting in wide circles, that’s a pretty good indicator that they didn’t bother to read map chat and really, were not inclined to participate and work with people on the event.

I specifically mentioned only warden two because I believe that one is not very skill based. It’s really entirely knowledge based. Knowledge that is being disseminated in map chat. This is the only warden that I find myself frustrated with regarding failures as to me it demonstrates a few individuals completely ignoring all the help and tips others are going out of their way to give. (Or, as I mentioned, it could very well be people trolling.) Those failures demonstrate that no, it is not everyone’s fault as you were asserting, in my opinion. I never find myself frustrated, but only wistfully disappointed, regarding subsequent platform fails as I know those can be hard for people, even if they did pay attention to tactics. Heck, I’ve even died on warden 4 because of graphical bugs.

My post was providing possible causes for failure which many may not have considered, because there have been repeatedly cruel posts and map chat entries which are not warranted. They are pre-emptive attacks. This is what I’m taking issue with, and what the original intent, I believe, of this particular thread is.

And nor did I defend the cruel posts and attacks (I just believe that in a specific instance, responsibility can be pinpointed.) But nor were you being at all helpful by laying blame on every single person, especially those who continually go out of their way to help people in order to promote successful runs. In fact it is those people who very likely have considered all that you’ve listed and it is why they continually go out of their way. Get angry at the ragey folk, sure. But don’t berate everyone. That was the point of my post to you.

Lothirieth.3408:

*various pertinent things*

My apologies if I offended you; that certainly was not my intention! I’m strong advocate of believing in the benefit of the doubt, and I was trying to show this by saying without knowledge from the horse’s mouth (so to speak), it’s not right to say troll/bad player. On a personal level, I probably should’ve been a little more generous with you in that respect. I’m not wanting to berate you (individually), so please don’t take it that way, and you certainly don’t need to excuse yourself in any way. If it helps, read my posts in the "kind" Mary Poppins voice (... this is not the first time I’ve had to say that, so clearly it’s another thing I need to work on!).

I know there’s plenty of people who’ve tried the content and done the best they can, and are feeling frustration. I include myself in that, too. yet I feel I failed more because I didn’t take time to speak to people afterwards to find out problems, or take a stand against the negative comments in map chat. I’m taking a stand against the forum ones here instead as a form of self-inflicted penance, despite the fact my husband always tells me I can’t fix the internet (he’s right, but I can try).

Oddly, I went down on warden 4 too due to the transition/camera issues (and the camera bugging in the surround static-type field then bugging my own photosensitive problems which means I probably shouldn’t go for lane 4 ever again, if that’s a known bug there), but that’s where there was abuse in my negative event experience.

I’m sorry I missed the bit of your post regarding that specific warden (you only mentioned it the once, so I didn’t realise that was all you were referring to). I genuinely thought you were speaking in general terms, so that’s kind of how I was coming back. I’m still with benefit of the doubt. That doesn’t rule anything like trolling out, but it’s more a case of not jumping to conclusions - even if it looks blatant. As for the things I listed not being relevant, please note I did say reasons were not limited to those I gave. I said a little while ago (regarding the Tower of Nightmares), that it’s like a Rule 34 - if you can think of it, that’s someone’s reason. Even if it’s as stupid as the cat jumping on the keyboard and pressing... stuff (this has happened to me before. It was embarrassing).

All along, however, I’ve been saying those who don’t know what to do should attempt to find out, and if not, then that’s a problem, but it’s not solved by anyone getting angry and abusive in the map chat or forums. I’m not absolving them from blame (those who do not co-operate on any level, I mean), and it’s not unreasonable to want them to work out how to do things, and it doesn’t seem to be happening. And yes, that’s frustrating if there’s been instruction given and work put in from other quarters. It still won’t get any better with all the negativity abounding. Even if it means one frustrated person standing up and telling an angry map chat abusive individual to leave the one or two "fails" alone publicly, that may go a small way to ensure that the "fails" don’t "fail" again.

What may* fix it is looking at factors such as timers, overflows, practice zones, even the accessibility mechanic to platforms (if they even give us platforms like this again, perhaps they will consider not using an area transition but a gate system which opens when it’s your lane, and you run up a ramp to get to the fight. Splitting up to platforms... eh, that wants working on. I haven’t had a cup of tea just yet). Maybe even "soft" achievements and "hard" achievements. Other mechanics to make things just a little bit more robust.

..oh, and to the person that said I shouldn’t take 2k words on this? I’m overly verbose, and the conversation wouldn’t have been half as interesting if I’d one-shotted it.

*goodness knows, there’s no guarantees of fixing this stuff.

Juunro.7082:

Alternatively, your position can be read as: “This content doesn’t coddle the least skilled elements of the playerbase, therefor it is poorly designed. Everyone ought to be able to do it with no effort whatsoever.”

Bullkitten.

The problem isn’t “coddling the least skilled elements”. The problem is that the gate to success goes through those least skilled elements.

You can have 90 people who are skilled, eager and willing to do their best, and 10 people who are clueless, careless or even malicious can cause those 90 to fail. That is a recipe for the exact sort of frustration and acrimony that this event has generated throughout GW2.

Juunro.7082:

And our position can be read as: “This content requires a modicum or ability to know and play your class and further, requires the players involved to be able to use some of the most basic skills involved with any MMO: eg, reading and using basic mechanics.”

It doesn’t matter how skilled or knowledgeable I am. Because I can lead my platform to success and still have the event failed, since dozens of other platforms with people who have no obligation to listen to me, also have to succeed, and only a handful need to fail to derail the entire thing.

Juunro.7082:

People aren’t really all that angry at the failure, they are angry at the total lack of investment of effort on behalf of those who fail.

That anger and $3 will get you an overpriced coffee at Starbucks.

I don’t care what people are angry about, I care about avoiding situations that make people angry. There is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, that you or I or anyone else can do that will make someone who doesn’t care about playing well and putting forth a solid effort suddenly decide to play well and put forth a solid effort. The events need to be designed so that this small minority of people doesn’t ruin it for everyone else. And that can only be accomplished by making events that aren’t dictated by the least common denominator, as this one is.

Pexx.6327:

Qaelyn.7612:

What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and Arenanet, have no control over what other players do. Only over how the game works.

That argument works both ways. What you and others don’t seem to get is that we, and A.net, have no control what other players do.

A.net designed the content. The content is fine the way it is (barring bugs). It’s completable, and has been completed by every server. Just because people are not wanting to join in and work towards continuing the content, or people are not putting the effort to get better at the game, doesn’t mean you have to complain to the devs that those people aren’t putting the effort to it.

Then, in the end, people complain because A.net designs easy content that can be completed by everyone, their mother, their dog and their unborn children. Complain about it being too easy, and then they design content that is (not even that) moderately challenging, and people get mad because they can’t do it because XXX reason.

Oi! You cheeky so-and-so! I AM a mother!

Are you suggesting people fail because pr0n, btw?

(as you were, don’t mind me).

“tken” i agree with you ,and extremly support you

leman.7682:

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

Instead of blasting other players with nasty comments and and getting reported for being a d**chebag, why not offer to teach them.

One Prarie Outpost.4860:

leman.7682:

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

Instead of blasting other players with nasty comments and and getting reported for being a d**chebag, why not offer to teach them.

Because we do that at the start of every kitten event and as each lane get ready for the next encounter, we will (again) explain what to do

When they then fail horribly while you have been done for the past minute on your platform, you just watch them while telling them what to do in the map chat and attempt to help them out by using AOE spells on the edge of your platform (if possible)
Then you get mad because a very few players are ruining the entire event for the rest of the map, while you have been waiting there for an hour due to it getting hardcapped long before the event starts.

That is why people get mad…

It is always that 1 kitten platform…

In an interesting little experiment in psychology, people seem to behave as though it’s the same group of people who fail the event every time. Like there’s a cadre of players sneakily following each of you, making sure to get on the same platform each time as you, and failing it. Yes, it IS “always that 1 kitten platform”, but that doesn’t mean it has to be the same 1 kitten group of 3-5 people.

The thing about this event, is that people don’t need to fail their platforms very often -at all- for the overall event to fail more often than it succeeds. If my math is right, then the number is around 89% for the platform success rate which the “raid” needs overall, and that’s just to break the 50% threshold on Marionette wins, i.e. to beat the Marionette sliiightly more often than it beats you. If you want to beat the Marionette more often, say three times out of four, then you need an even higher platform success rate.

So some of the things people are saying, like “90% of the players are crap”, is simply not true according to the math. Personally I would say that someone who finishes their platform 88% qualifies as “pretty good”, but a full raid of such people is still going to fail the Marionette more often than they kill it. Many of the people complaining about bad players probably themselves don’t have an >89% platform rate, and so have no ground to stand on, so to speak. (Confession: I think my rate is only 84% or so.)

leman.7682:

I had a bearbow who died in first 5 seconds after getting on platform.
The rest of the group rushed to rez him in a bomb and wiped in no time.

I was literally fighting a boss alone with 4 noobs on the ground.

The amount of kittenstorm I unleashed on them after the event was of biblical proportions.

So yeah, they get good, I get nice. This or Anet makes better events.

You just made the point by the original poster. The reaction and frustration players feel after another failed attempt is creating a toxic environment. It’s easy to make stupid mistakes when your not experienced with all the bosses. You don’t always know what went wrong on a platform; one of our guild members lagged and ended up on the platform dead. He’s a very experienced player but I’m sure the other players thought he was just a noob.

I like the Marionette fight but I think it’s too difficult to coordinate in an open area the way that it is. It took me 14 times to finally complete it, and after attempt 9 and 10 I was ready to take a break from the game. I was beginning to feel the rage and frustration some of the players feel when they spout off at other players. I knew what I was doing but it didn’t make a difference. However, since I’m a guild leader I can’t just take ‘time off’ the way one of our members did. A lot of players will just write the LS events off when it ceases to be fun.

Cevlakohn.2165:

In an interesting little experiment in psychology, people seem to behave as though it’s the same group of people who fail the event every time. Like there’s a cadre of players sneakily following each of you, making sure to get on the same platform each time as you, and failing it. Yes, it IS “always that 1 kitten platform”, but that doesn’t mean it has to be the same 1 kitten group of 3-5 people.

The thing about this event, is that people don’t need to fail their platforms very often -at all- for the overall event to fail more often than it succeeds. If my math is right, then the number is around 89% for the platform success rate which the “raid” needs overall, and that’s just to break the 50% threshold on Marionette wins, i.e. to beat the Marionette sliiightly more often than it beats you. If you want to beat the Marionette more often, say three times out of four, then you need an even higher platform success rate.

So some of the things people are saying, like “90% of the players are crap”, is simply not true according to the math. Personally I would say that someone who finishes their platform 88% qualifies as “pretty good”, but a full raid of such people is still going to fail the Marionette more often than they kill it. Many of the people complaining about bad players probably themselves don’t have an >89% platform rate, and so have no ground to stand on, so to speak. (Confession: I think my rate is only 84% or so.)

Thing is, i personally have never failed a platform of the many events over this week, not even close and i know a lot of other players who have never failed it either.

It is not an event where you can say “You win some you lose some”, that is the same as saying that right after you died from a Moa that killed you in PVE, it simple should not happen.

The players who fail this are simply bad, or depending on the event, a single guy on the platform can cause the platform to fail for the rest of the platform (warden 2 with mines)

It is not 90% of players that are bad, it is 98% or something like that, that ruin it for the rest of the players. Btw my server wins most of the events, but a lot of them are pretty darn close but even if 1/5 fail or less, that is still 1 too many and hours are wasted on it because of a very few players.

If anet had made a better algorithm for sorting people on platforms, like spreading out people who have succeeded their platforms a lot and some other criteria like that, then this wouldn’t be such an issue (except on warden 2 possibly as 1 player can mess that up).

I Am Dansker.7105:

It is not 90% of players that are bad, it is 98% or something like that, that ruin it for the rest of the players.

Where on earth are you getting this number from? Especially since you say that your server “wins most of the events”, it seems unlikely. If 98% of players on your server were failures at this, then it would take over 300 million attempts just to break a single chain (0.02^5 = 1/312500000).

Where I get 89% was this: People need to defeat their wardens x percent of the time to destroy their console. In a chain-breaking attempt, 5 out of 5 platforms need to do this. So x^5 needs to be > 0.5 for that to be an even chance at breaking a chain, but we’re not looking to break just one chain. Best case scenario, it takes 5 failed attempts at breaking a chain before the Marionette event fails (or so I’ve read. Usually in my experience it’s 4, which would make it 91% rather than 89%). So if there are a total of 9 chain-breaking attempts, and 5 of them need to succeed, then to break five chains x^5 needs to be > 5/9. (5/9)^(1/5) = around 0.89.

I welcome anybody who wants to correct my math, since I’m not terribly confident in it. For instance, I don’t know how to take into account that you can still have 5/9ths of the platforms succeed but if they aren’t clumped together into groups of fives then the chains still don’t break. But at least I’m TRYING to work this out mathematically.

EDIT: It occurs to me that maybe what one needs to do is solve (x^5)^(5/9) = 0.5. That would put the platform success rate for an even Marionette win chance at around 78% (or 80% if it takes 4 Phase 2 fails), which hurts my position a bit.

If anyone cares:

I asked a friend of mine who’s working on a maths PhD. After explaining the fight (not the easiest thing to do with someone who doesn’t play MMOs…), he said the formula is:

p^25 * (1 + 5(1-p^5) + 15(1-p^5)^2 + 35(1-p^5)^3 + 70(1-p^5)^4) = N

where p is the average chance of each platform killing its warden, and N is how often the Marionette is killed.

Inputting that into Wolfram Alpha gives 87% (or 89% if 4 failures at Phase 2 fails the event).

I Am Dansker.7105:

Because we do that at the start of every kitten event and as each lane get ready for the next encounter, we will (again) explain what to do

When they then fail horribly while you have been done for the past minute on your platform, you just watch them while telling them what to do in the map chat and attempt to help them out by using AOE spells on the edge of your platform (if possible)
Then you get mad because a very few players are ruining the entire event for the rest of the map, while you have been waiting there for an hour due to it getting hardcapped long before the event starts.

That is why people get mad…

It is always that 1 kitten platform…

Dude, if you’re getting mad/angry at other gamers for how they do or do not play, you need to switch to games that don’t involve people that can’t live up to your high standards.

Cevlakohn.2165:

I Am Dansker.7105:

It is not 90% of players that are bad, it is 98% or something like that, that ruin it for the rest of the players.

Where on earth are you getting this number from?

snip

My bad, i wrote that message early in the morning just before my exam and got the numbers messed up

What i meant was that 98% of the players were doing a good job and don’t fail horribly, but the rest 2% were ruining the event for all these other players. Also don’t take the % i just said for being true, just trying to point out that it is a very small minority of players who can be the deciding factor between success and failing and that you cannot change that by giving 110% of yourself.

One Prarie Outpost.4860:

Dude, if you’re getting mad/angry at other gamers for how they do or do not play, you need to switch to games that don’t involve people that can’t live up to your high standards.

I never said i can’t live with it, but it is frustrating that so few players can be the deciding factor between success and failing. Even if the rest of the team gives 110%, it cannot change the outcome of the event.

Also for the record, i play multiple other games on a competitive level, but that doesn’t mean i should drop playing gw2 because of the frustration from bad players, when the reward and fun on TS with the rest of the server, even when failing, is worth it. Though at the low difficulty of the event, it shouldn’t happen.