Guild Wars 2

Random incident one, random incident two, random incident three, none of which give any hints or clues as to why they are being preformed, who’s preforming them, and how they are connected… and then out of nowhere, they give us the villain responsible. I have taken the liberty of calling these incidents rising action, but that would only apply if their rise foreshadowed the conclusion. No matter how you look at it, this is a serious breach of story-craft, rising action should be like building blocks, each one giving a little more, drawing you closer to the truth, giving enough information for the reader to connect bits and form conjectures yet not enough to know for certain. But this is what Anet fails at. Nothing in Flame and Frost hints at a Sylvari mastermind, nothing connects it to Aetherblade pirates or visa versa, and nothing forebodes a bigger plan. The issue with making Scarlet responsible for all these atrocities, is that nothing within them connected to her; they could have had a control room in the molten facility with airship diagrams, or a private quarter in the Aetherblade retreat with a leaf or two that fell off, to actually hint and build up to Scarlet, to give her precedence. This, is Anets greatest fail with Scarlet.

yes… I posted this elsewhere, but I figured if I gave it a thread of its own, directly targeting Devs, they might see it… who knows?

Whilst I agree, this has been discussed at length a lot over the last few months and you will be happy to hear has been acknowledged by both Colin and the writers as a flaw. Hopefully they have learned from this and the next arc will be taking this into account for the story.

Randulf.7614:

Whilst I agree, this has been discussed at length a lot over the last few months and you will be happy to hear has been acknowledged by both Colin and the writers as a flaw. Hopefully they have learned from this and the next arc will be taking this into account for the story.

I guess that’s what happens when I take a vacation from the forums. Still, their plan to explain and connect everything in the last four chapters, while no doubt is heading in the right direction, comes all too little too late. I understand they wanted to have a ‘great reveal’, but that should never come at the expense of plot development. They equated LS to “Game of Thorns,” where the player could say, “I knew it, I beat GoT!”, but unlike GoT, any guesses, no matter how close, are no more than baseless conjecture with no means to isolate by; pure coincidence that the players fantasy should match the game’s plans, and that, is nothing to be proud of.

Unlike everyone it seems, I actually like Scarlett for what she is… a first attempt for living story. This said though, she does indeed have flaws, and I agree with what you said. But the thing about Scarlett that bugs me is the fact that since the first time we saw her (and beaten her) she tells us it’s part of her plan. It’s kind of being thrown in our faces that she has an alternate motive. This makes Scarlett very unpredictable . This and the fact that we never actually have to defend against Scarlett’s “projects” (apart from some minor things) remove the feeling of being under attack. Scarlett always manages to put up some giant structure or alliance without the player ever getting the chance of preventing it. And after it has been set up, a way in gets found instantly and players go destroy it. Despite the many (and i mean MANY) flaws in personal story, the thing i liked alot was the fact that we get attacked at Claw Island first, and that gave an exciting feeling of us losing ground and needing to make a strategy to go on the offense. I think this would make players want to fight Scarlett and actually kill her for storywise reasons, and not just because people hate her :P just my opinion ^^

TL;DR: Have some back and forth, don’t have Scarlett making things and us breaking it instantly, have the opponents win some stuff aswell. (this makes GoT so great)

class.4802:

Unlike everyone it seems, I actually like Scarlett for what she is… a first attempt for living story.

That would be acceptable had these not been professional highly paid writers, who were hired upon the understanding that they know how to create a story, and need not learn through trial and error.

And after it has been set up, a way in gets found instantly and players go destroy it. Despite the many (and i mean MANY) flaws in personal story, the thing i liked alot was the fact that we get attacked at Claw Island first, and that gave an exciting feeling of us losing ground and needing to make a strategy to go on the offense. I think this would make players want to fight Scarlett and actually kill her for storywise reasons, and not just because people hate her :P just my opinion ^^

TL;DR: Have some back and forth, don’t have Scarlett making things and us breaking it instantly, have the opponents win some stuff aswell. (this makes GoT so great)

I agree, a good hero is not infallible, they get their faces pressed to the mud, dragged to the bottom of the lake, and have to struggle back to the surface. This creates suspense and excitement. More to the point, they were able to do so in personal story, so its not as if they don’t know how to create a good plot. And if that is the case, any excuse such as they are testing or learning is complete and utter nonsense. I see no explanation as to how they would forget how to write, how they could do it with personal story and not living story.

@Mia: I suspect part of the problem was also caused by development process constraints and other similar issues. The recent nightmare tower chapter shows that they have improved in their ability to tell the story through the game as the LS has progressed. While this doesn’t necessarily excuse the writers from all the faults of the plot, the LS writing process faces constraints that the PS writers didn’t have to worry about.

Harlen Ellison, the sci-fi author, sometimes stages an event where he writes in public, and as soon as each page is finished, it is posted up to be read. At that point, he can no longer change what he wrote, so he has to continue on and deliver the next page. I’d imagine the writing process for the LS is constrained by a similar inability to go back and refine elements of the plot that aren’t working out, plus the public scrutiny of your unfinished work while still having to deliver the next “page” by deadline.

Mia Lunarfang.5826:

They equated LS to “Game of Thorns,” where the player could say, “I knew it, I beat GoT!”, but unlike GoT, any guesses, no matter how close, are no more than baseless conjecture with no means to isolate by; pure coincidence that the players fantasy should match the game’s plans, and that, is nothing to be proud of.

Ah . . . no, they didn’t equate LS to Game of Thrones (or Thorns, which would be fun if it was about Mad King Thorn and his messed up family . . . )

They compared figuring out what their twist was to figuring out something on Game of Thrones. Because much like everyone who checks Sean Bean’s filmography, everyone who plays this knows Scarlet is dying at the end of act three.

Yes, i agree. Right now all the updates have been the same pretty much. Not building up step after step.

What i think though is they should focus more on the new characters they add and tell us how they connects to the story. There have been really good characters in the Living Story but many of them didn’t get as much sunlight as for example Kasmeer, Kiel, Scarlet , Braham, and Rox.

I’d try to analyse past events to connect dots and see what can be delivered that respects cohesion with the past stuff.

But as the past events are forever gone, we are dealing with “we want you to do theories about a series of book in which we totally destroy any existing copies of the past even if they were at someone’s else library and the only thing that remains are the memories of those who read it in the past”.

Which makes the story creating and experience weird, in the best case.

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

Can I just just say to the OP, YOUR mistake was assuming everyone is of the same opinion. If a villain is good, there shouldn’t have been any breadcrumbs left behind. I’d much rather be surprised then looking back to how it all played out.

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

I think scarlet is a good villain, everybody hate her.

Sinistral.5782:

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

I think scarlet is a good villain, everybody hate her.

Not hated for being a Villain though, hated for tainting the game with rubbish.

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

Someone made a complaint that the writers are paid to make good stories? Because every writer out there makes awesome stories. I mean Stephen King is a great write according to most, yet you’ll find many people who don’t like his writing at all.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

Novelists write alone, game writers write as part of a team with editors and developers, even if one or two thought scarlet was a cool idea, there should have been many that said.. ‘wait this is B-movie/cartoony trash’

Aajolea.8132:

Novelists write alone, game writers write as part of a team with editors and developers, even if one or two thought scarlet was a cool idea, there should have been many that said.. ‘wait this is B-movie/cartoony trash’

Yes, because we never had that sort of thing before? (Palawa Joko, Varesh Ossa, Mad King Thorn)

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, because we never had that sort of thing before? (Palawa Joko, Varesh Ossa, Mad King Thorn)

Well, when Joko and Varesh were in the spotlight, our main focus was on Abaddon, who was not cartoonish at all. (I don’t really think Varesh could be called cartoonish either— she didn’t giggle, she didn’t dance around and try to hit us with an oversized mallet).

I was emotionally upset when scarlet mentioned she was responsible for the molten alliance.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Yes, because we never had that sort of thing before? (Palawa Joko, Varesh Ossa, Mad King Thorn)

Well, when Joko and Varesh were in the spotlight, our main focus was on Abaddon, who was not cartoonish at all. (I don’t really think Varesh could be called cartoonish either— she didn’t giggle, she didn’t dance around and try to hit us with an oversized mallet).

Oh no, she was cartoonish and well over the top as a villain. She didn’t laugh, she did dance though (as a dervish, she did her share of it).

No, see, she was a different sort of cartoon villain. If Scarlet is, oh, Rita Repulsa . . . just to use a comparison from LA chat I recall. If Scarlet is Rita Repulsa . . . Varesh was Lord Zedd. If Scarlet was the Joker, Varesh was the Riddler. If Scarlet is “the world is just my stage” then Varesh is “the world is nothing at all to me”.

She was never played for laughs, but she still was one-note villainous. She was not as over the top as the Lich Lord, and also nowhere near as chilling as Shiro. There was nothing to her other than “I’m the villain, I’m evil, and I am going to crush your resistance”.

And much the same, Palawa Joko was humorous when we came across him and he had to rebuild his power. He was a cantankerous old man in an undead body. Sure, he’s a necromantic power beyond peer but while we were passing through he behaved like some guy going “get offa my lawn, kids”. Playing the Bonus Mission Pack, or the Halloween quest fighting against him at power? Yeah, he’s a force to be reckoned with.

And just to cover the final base . . . not all cartoon villains were terrible. David Xanatos, Slade, Azula, Maleficent . . . that’s without even really digging too far.

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there was a reason for that? Like, for example, the quality of writing that didn’t go up with time at all, and after all that time still remains mediocre at best?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

She was never played for laughs, but she still was one-note villainous. She was not as over the top as the Lich Lord, and also nowhere near as chilling as Shiro. There was nothing to her other than “I’m the villain, I’m evil, and I am going to crush your resistance”.

We saw Varesh in various contexts, though. We saw her first when Istan and Kourna at peace, and she wasn’t the villain yet, and then things changed. We also saw Morgahn’s view of her change. There was character development there. It may have been Morgahn’s, but it had implications for Varesh. She wasn’t deep, but she was a secondary villain to Abaddon anyway, and she was still more complex than what we have now.

Scarlet’s been the same since the beginning. She’s had no meaningful interaction with anybody. Every piece of dialogue could be switched with any other piece of dialogue.

(I agree about Joko, though; his comic-relief depiction was a big disappointment to me).

I’ll admit Scarlet was interesting during her initial introduction. Those were fun times, when we flooded the maps teeming with PVE commanders to kill her minions. I know a lot of people got rich from doing that. Wasn’t hard at all; you got a chance to kill 50-75 aetherblade champions per tick. Then it went sorta downhill after that.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

She was never played for laughs, but she still was one-note villainous. She was not as over the top as the Lich Lord, and also nowhere near as chilling as Shiro. There was nothing to her other than “I’m the villain, I’m evil, and I am going to crush your resistance”.

We saw Varesh in various contexts, though. We saw her first when Istan and Kourna at peace, and she wasn’t the villain yet, and then things changed. We also saw Morgahn’s view of her change. There was character development there. It may have been Morgahn’s, but it had implications for Varesh. She wasn’t deep, but she was a secondary villain to Abaddon anyway, and she was still more complex than what we have now.

We didn’t see her develop. She was always the devoted follower of Abaddon since we first saw her talking with Kahyet. The only thing that changed was when she was able to get Margonites out to bolster her Kournan military. And General Morgahn didn’t object until she went after his goddess’ sanctuary.

She was not complex. She didn’t change. She always was a fanatical devotee of Abaddon willing to crush anything in her way to her goal.

Scarlet’s been the same since the beginning. She’s had no meaningful interaction with anybody. Every piece of dialogue could be switched with any other piece of dialogue.

Yes?

(I agree about Joko, though; his comic-relief depiction was a big disappointment to me).

I wasn’t disappointed with it, I was more just going “okay, well this explains how Turai managed to beat him so easily if he’s like this”. Like I said cartoonish, simple villains were all over Guild Wars 1. One more didn’t faze me.

I think something people overlook is that characters are never interesting by themselves. Scarlet’s problem is she has no personal interactions with any of the other characters. If we allude to a certain villain many people compare scarlet to, the joker would be quite a boring character without batman or the other batman villains, it’s the network of interactions that makes the story interesting. Scarlet needs a batman, the obvious choice is the player, but that would require Bioware level story design to work.

Steelwolf, I’d agree though we’re supposed to be that other person. We’re not watching a movie or reading a book. Maybe that could be one of the issues, people are spectating instead of being a participant?

Delvoire.8930:

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

The build up is there and most people don’t understand or see it? really? If that is true all that does is show bad game design and storytelling. What’s the point if nobody can see it. Even the writers agree the pacing wasn’t done correctly.

Secondly I agree that it is all about personal taste. But when the forums are full of threads about how much they dislike the LS and Scarlet then Anet would be complete idiots just to pass that off with “Oh well, that’s just their opinion”.

Thobek.1730:

Delvoire.8930:

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

The build up is there and most people don’t understand or see it? really? If that is true all that does is show bad game design and storytelling. What’s the point if nobody can see it. Even the writers agree the pacing wasn’t done correctly.

Secondly I agree that it is all about personal taste. But when the forums are full of threads about how much they dislike the LS and Scarlet then Anet would be complete idiots just to pass that off with “Oh well, that’s just their opinion”.

The number of people who log into the forums to post is miniscule compared to what log in and play the game. I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s true.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Snippity

Note, though, I didn’t say we saw her develop; I said we saw her in different contexts, and we saw Morgahn develop in relation to her. I’m well aware she wasn’t deep or complex. I simply think she doesn’t compare with somebody who literally tries to hit you with a big mallet as her method of battle.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Neilos Tyrhanos.5427:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Snippity

Note, though, I didn’t say we saw her develop; I said we saw her in different contexts, and we saw Morgahn develop in relation to her. I’m well aware she wasn’t deep or complex. I simply think she doesn’t compare with somebody who literally tries to hit you with a big mallet as her method of battle.

We’ll have to agree to disagree.

Eh, Varesh tried to hit me with a big blade on a stick as her method of battle. And still didn’t make it work so she called in demons. Killed them too She also kept posturing the whole time I was going to lose, and proclaiming “Enemies must die!” so . . .

“Die, die, die …” vs “Enemies must die!” doesn’t feel all that different.

DeWolfe.2174:

Can I just just say to the OP, YOUR mistake was assuming everyone is of the same opinion. If a villain is good, there shouldn’t have been any breadcrumbs left behind. I’d much rather be surprised then looking back to how it all played out.

I don’t recall ever saying my opinion was the player consensus, however, while a good villain should surprise you, causing players to say, “I didn’t see that coming”, it should also be followed by the statement “I should have seen that coming,” as everything clicks in after the fact. There is a big difference between laying out a steady, obvious trail of breadcrumbs, and a rare snapped twig every so often . As it is, they left no trail to speak of, nothing to remotely make it feel like she’s truly the mastermind behind it all. Good writing present the clues subtly and indirectly, still leaving pause for suspense and uncertainty, yet it presents them none-the-less. Argue if you will, but a conclusion that has no threads with which to manifest by, is a shallow conclusion at best.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Mia Lunarfang.5826:

They equated LS to “Game of Thorns,” where the player could say, “I knew it, I beat GoT!”, but unlike GoT, any guesses, no matter how close, are no more than baseless conjecture with no means to isolate by; pure coincidence that the players fantasy should match the game’s plans, and that, is nothing to be proud of.

They compared figuring out what their twist was to figuring out something on Game of Thrones.

…that’s exactly what I was stating. However I noted that they failed to obtain that objective. While the twist may come unexpectedly on Game of Thorns, they do not come without precedence, you can look back and connect everything. The same cannot be said of LS.

Delvoire.8930:

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

Someone made a complaint that the writers are paid to make good stories? Because every writer out there makes awesome stories. I mean Stephen King is a great write according to most, yet you’ll find many people who don’t like his writing at all.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

I’ll give you this much, the prisoners in F&F did mention that there was a mastermind behind the Molten Alliance, and the Aetherblade captain did give us Scarlet’s name. But is that truly enough to preempt her being the villain behind everything? Only two clues over the course of six arcs, and the very moment we’re introduced, she is instantly presented as the mastermind behind everything?

I feel like we should have at least known of or seen Scarlet, to have physically met her, prior to that. Perhaps in the raid on the Molten Alliance she could have joined the Vigil effort as a ‘good citizen’ or played the ‘victim’ as one of the prisoners. That would easily fit her Joker persona. Or maybe we could have bumped into her playing Dragon Ball; a fierce contender who enjoys ripping up the competition, or a ‘weak’ player that cant stand losing; either would have been a cool intro instance preceding the pvp aspect. In a cut scene, triggered as we reach a certain point on our trek to the Zephr Sanctum, she could have been an ‘excited’ tourist who ‘bumped’ into us on her way up to explore the airship.

Any encounter, it doesn’t have to be big or incriminating, even a random passerby, would have made us feel so much more connected to her. In fact, it could even be done without a cut scene or instance. Everyone loved the quaggin that told jokes at the outskirts of Zephr Sanctum, no one would have suspected him; a simple everyday performer, he’s just part of the event, he blends in perfectly with the extras, but imagine how well receipted if would have been if he was the villain. It could have been a background role like that.

Delvoire.8930:

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

Someone made a complaint that the writers are paid to make good stories? Because every writer out there makes awesome stories. I mean Stephen King is a great write according to most, yet you’ll find many people who don’t like his writing at all.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

Allow me to quote this post to show a fundamental flaw in your argument. You’re right about good writing being a matter of perspective, but it’s also a matter of success. If you write for the broad public and the resonance is mostly negative, you didn’t get the job done, even if your writing is otherwise an acceptable result for a professional writer.
The Living Story is questionable in every way. If most people don’t see or understand the setup for the story and the villain, the setup is rubbish, it is as simple as that, and looking into it, it’s not a very sophisticated challenge to understand what the writers were trying to achieve. It falls flat because it doesn’t work emotionally, it is not consistent with the overall setting and not connected to the personal story.
Most of this has been discussed to death, the interesting part for this thread is the lack of connection to the story and the villain, which is actually one of the most important tasks for any writer.
As Mia described it: You have several incidents, seemingly independent from each other, and all of sudden Scarlet appears and starts to… well, she starts to annoy people. Yes, there were hints at a mastermind behind all this and it was to be expected that said mastermind would come into the limelight sooner or later, but the story failed entirely to connect the players to her. I’ve yet to meet a player who actually wants to take Scarlet down because she is the evil mastermind behind the Living Story, people either want to kill her because she annoys them by being part of the story, or they don’t care at all and just farm for the achievments one day just to get back to business.
A setup like that is terrible, plain and simple.

Let’s compare this to a very conventional setup for a story like that. Nothing fancy, neither sophisticated nor complex, but it works even in such a simple fashion.

1. The player meets Marjory and Kashmeer and gets involved in a small adventure, nothing fancy, just a good, self-contained story. The only purpose is to give the duo some screentime to establish them as allies the player may like to work with in the future.

2. After a while the player gets another message from Marjory to assist her once more. This time the problem merely seems to be another little job, but it ends up being part of a greater scheme and at the end of the day you’re aware of having ruined the day for somebody you haven’t been aware of from the beginning.

3. Things escalate quickly. Marjory and her sidekick as well as the player, who is also far more than a simple citizen of Tyria, are a threat to the great scheme and the villain wants to stop them before they learn too much about it. She doesn’t want to kill them right away, she just wants them to be out of the way and makes the mistake that will ultimately lead to her demise: She kidnaps a close friend or loved one, in this case Lady Kashmeer. The message is clear and simple: Keep your nose out of my business and she will be free once all is set and done.
At the same time, the alliance of flame an frost launches a devastating attack and gets in the way of Braham and Rox. The villain is now established as a dangerous adversary and connected to the events, but remains a mysterious foe as you know nothing about her, not even the name or what she looks like.

4. Neither Marjory nor the player are willing to back down, but in order to strike back, you need much more information and additional help. The pact you’ve lead into battle has yet to recover from your last victory and is also not your private army. You might be able to summon them later on, but for now you have to do the dirty work yourself. Marjory knows enough people to gather some useful information, meanwhile you have to deal with more urgent matters: As a hero of Tyria, authorities call for your aid: They are busy with the refugees and the military forces don’t have the ressources to fight off the alliance, save the refugees AND investigate what caused the incident. You get to work, meet Braham and Rox, help them out and once their most urgent problems are solved, they feel like having a score to settle with whoever is responsible for the mess.

Four chapters and all important characters have been established. Your allies have a grudge against the villain and you are involved: You witnessed the horror the villain has unleashed and met the terrified refugees as well as Braham and Rox, both scarred for life for the same reason, and you certainly don’t want Kashmeer to be another victim of such a ruthless foe as long as there is any chance to rescue her. You’re ready to learn how deep the rabbid hole goes.
Once you’ve accepted that the villain is dangerous and worth your time, it’s much easier to accept an eccentric, psychotic villain like Scarlet. With the failed setup we actually got, Scarlet had an unnecessarily rough start. The impression of her scheme being too big and complicated for such a small story and her abilities and ressources being over the top didn’t help her, either, but talking about that would go beyond the scope of the discussion. In the end, working on a much better setup will be one of the key factors for the second installment of the Living Story. For the first one all you can do is to try to give it a conciliatory end without damaging or killing promising characters

An elaboration on my previous suggestion, here is one way we could have met Scarlet.
Enter Flame and Frost dungeon:
1. Cut scene launches showing you Rox, Braham, and a few random adventures gathered before a Vigil Tactician, who thanks you for coming and begins a short briefing.
2. Scarlet runs into the cave, bumping into a few of the adventures and thus interrupting the briefing. She apologizes, as she was ‘worried she’d be late’, thus appearing as an airhead, though in reality she is simply being sarcastic as this is all a game to her.
3. The tactician is about to rebuke her when the cave’s roof collapses as a large dredge drill nosedives into the crowd, scattering and injuring the gathered war party. The Molten Alliance pours out on the shocked vigil and adventures.
4. Having missed most of the debris, Scarlet joins you Rox and Braham to fight off the Molten Alliance sneak attack, cut scene ends at start of battle.
5. After the battle Scarlet gives a brief introduction via voiced dialogue and proceeds to join you for the remainder of the dungeon, ever playing the roll of the concerned, but ditsy citizen, as she relishes in her play.

Astralporing.1957:

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there was a reason for that? Like, for example, the quality of writing that didn’t go up with time at all, and after all that time still remains mediocre at best?

So why discuss this now? It has been discussed in all other topics, and this living story isn’t even out yet. There is absolutely no point to this copypaste thread.

Bubi.7942:

Astralporing.1957:

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there was a reason for that? Like, for example, the quality of writing that didn’t go up with time at all, and after all that time still remains mediocre at best?

So why discuss this now? It has been discussed in all other topics, and this living story isn’t even out yet. There is absolutely no point to this copypaste thread.

Oh, but there is. It tells the writers that their work is still as terrible as before. And seeing as it doesn’t improve with each living story instance, they really need to be reminded about it every time.

Unless, of course, we have already given up on getting a good story in the future.

Mia Lunarfang.5826:

Bubi.7942:

Astralporing.1957:

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there was a reason for that? Like, for example, the quality of writing that didn’t go up with time at all, and after all that time still remains mediocre at best?

So why discuss this now? It has been discussed in all other topics, and this living story isn’t even out yet. There is absolutely no point to this copypaste thread.

The point is simply to give ideas and structure to benefit future living story structure. Maybe this thread has been done a thousand times, but I still have advice I want to give, things I want to say, want heard, so I will say them. Contribute to the thread, or back, discrediting it is pointless.

So why not use one of the bazillion threads currently discussing this? This topic is for the new Living story called: Origins of madness – which you know nothing about plotwise.

It’s just a waste of breath, and that’s just what I’m doing too, so you are right, it’s pointless, you are just gonna carry on anyway.

Astralporing.1957:

Bubi.7942:

Astralporing.1957:

Bubi.7942:

Ah! Finally a thread about Scarlet being a bad villain.

Cause we haven’t had these for the past half year every single time.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there was a reason for that? Like, for example, the quality of writing that didn’t go up with time at all, and after all that time still remains mediocre at best?

So why discuss this now? It has been discussed in all other topics, and this living story isn’t even out yet. There is absolutely no point to this copypaste thread.

Oh, but there is. It tells the writers that their work is still as terrible as before. And seeing as it doesn’t improve with each living story instance, they really need to be reminded about it every time.

Unless, of course, we have already given up on getting a good story in the future.

If the writers are “still as terrible as before” and they’re trying harder, would you expect there is potential for something good out of the writers?

Though I suppose it’s a symptom of the speed of release, after all the shorter the time you have in which to write something the better chance of you relying on quick references for tropes and cliches.

Delvoire.8930:

Thobek.1730:

Delvoire.8930:

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

The build up is there and most people don’t understand or see it? really? If that is true all that does is show bad game design and storytelling. What’s the point if nobody can see it. Even the writers agree the pacing wasn’t done correctly.

Secondly I agree that it is all about personal taste. But when the forums are full of threads about how much they dislike the LS and Scarlet then Anet would be complete idiots just to pass that off with “Oh well, that’s just their opinion”.

The number of people who log into the forums to post is miniscule compared to what log in and play the game. I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s true.

So first you talk about most people that can’t understand it or see it – you must be talking about forum users only then which according to you is a miniscule amount.

See your stupid sarcastic remark basically made you original point moot since you don’t know what most people are thinking at all.

Thobek.1730:

Delvoire.8930:

Thobek.1730:

Delvoire.8930:

The build up has been there. It’s a shame most people haven’t been able to see it or understand it.

It’s all a matter of perspective and personal likes and dislikes.

The build up is there and most people don’t understand or see it? really? If that is true all that does is show bad game design and storytelling. What’s the point if nobody can see it. Even the writers agree the pacing wasn’t done correctly.

Secondly I agree that it is all about personal taste. But when the forums are full of threads about how much they dislike the LS and Scarlet then Anet would be complete idiots just to pass that off with “Oh well, that’s just their opinion”.

The number of people who log into the forums to post is miniscule compared to what log in and play the game. I know it’s hard to believe, but it’s true.

So first you talk about most people that can’t understand it or see it – you must be talking about forum users only then which according to you is a miniscule amount.

See your stupid sarcastic remark basically made you original point moot since you don’t know what most people are thinking at all.

Actually.. it didn’t make it moot. Let me clarify.

The forum bandits around here like to be super negative. Don’t believe me? Scroll through the forums. It’s one thing to be negative, it’s another to be constructive in criticism. Most people don’t understand the story, ie. the people who post here who say that exact statement.

In that same context though, only a small number of people who play the game actually log into the forums to post.

Sooooooo essentially it’s a small number of people who really have no idea what the story is or understand it. They are vocal though. That small group is large on the forums though and thus we see it nearly everywhere.

I personally come to the forums to get new insight on things or to see the opinions of new content. It’s disheartening that nearly every thread is just filled with trolling negativity. I’d much rather talk to people in game because those are the people who are generally enjoying it.

DeWolfe.2174:

Can I just just say to the OP, YOUR mistake was assuming everyone is of the same opinion. If a villain is good, there shouldn’t have been any breadcrumbs left behind. I’d much rather be surprised then looking back to how it all played out.

Scarlet left tons of breadcrumbs in her other appearances. She is totally random and her actions make no sense. That’s why she’s a bad villain and not a good one.

Mochann.5298:

Scarlet left tons of breadcrumbs in her other appearances. She is totally random and her actions make no sense. That’s why she’s a bad villain and not a good one.

Oh they make sense, at least there’s a very definite trend to her workings thus far. She’s testing out what she can get to work together, and then testing the results out. I don’t think she cares about those tests’ effects on the world, I think she just cares about the results and how she can use that data.

And if she can’t? Discard it and move on.

Considering nothing new is discussed here that hasn’t been already said. And commented on by Anet them selves is this really constructive. You are speaking as if you know every npc character in the game by the fact you are stating we had to know scarlet orgins before she strikes obviously the villain would hide here plans and motivations…

As if every person in a town knows each other and exactly what each other are thinking (i knows there are some in Alaska)

Most players probably skip 95% of the lore missing the ambient conversations although many are trying to map them.

Fafnir.5124:

Considering nothing new is discussed here that hasn’t been already said. And commented on by Anet them selves is this really constructive. You are speaking as if you know every npc character in the game by the fact you are stating we had to know scarlet orgins before she strikes obviously the villain would hide here plans and motivations…

As if every person in a town knows each other and exactly what each other are thinking (i knows there are some in Alaska)

Most players probably skip 95% of the lore missing the ambient conversations although many are trying to map them.

I am not stating that we have to know her orgins and motives prior to discovering that she is a villain, merely that there has to be some form of plot build up, she can’t simply come out of nowhere without any evidence of her existance, and claim that she is responsible for everything. Also, I have stated new ideas on this thread that have not been made elsewhere, such as ways in which she could have emerged into the story prior to her reveal as the enemy. Am I saying my way is the best way to do it? By no means; I came up with it in five seconds, and I’m an enexperienced novice working on my own, compaired to a team of three hundred perfessionals working in close nit groups. Yet even so, at least I came up with something pliable.

not all was bad in the living story

there where some short moments of magic, And even some are epic.

Mia Lunarfang.5826:

Fafnir.5124:

Considering nothing new is discussed here that hasn’t been already said. And commented on by Anet them selves is this really constructive. You are speaking as if you know every npc character in the game by the fact you are stating we had to know scarlet orgins before she strikes obviously the villain would hide here plans and motivations…

As if every person in a town knows each other and exactly what each other are thinking (i knows there are some in Alaska)

Most players probably skip 95% of the lore missing the ambient conversations although many are trying to map them.

I am not stating that we have to know her orgins and motives prior to discovering that she is a villain, merely that there has to be some form of plot build up, she can’t simply come out of nowhere without any evidence of her existance, and claim that she is responsible for everything. Also, I have stated new ideas on this thread that have not been made elsewhere, such as ways in which she could have emerged into the story prior to her reveal as the enemy. Am I saying my way is the best way to do it? By no means; I came up with it in five seconds, and I’m an enexperienced novice working on my own, compaired to a team of three hundred perfessionals working in close nit groups. Yet even so, at least I came up with something pliable.

It was pretty funny when you asked the pale tree who scarlet is and she said I don’t know though. Was fixed with an update though