Guild Wars 2

So, generally when a franchise gives a theory out about the origin of a race and adds “speculator”, this is generally a sign that the “answer is right in front of you”. I’ve witnessed this time and time again in several franchises.

With this in mind, it’s pretty obvious that the Kodan are right, the norn evolved from them.

This of course, would mean that the norn are essentially a Bear to Humanoid evolution linage, much like that terrible Mario Brothers movie where Humans evolved from dinosaurs in an alternate dimension.

How would you feel at the notion that the norn are essentially Ursus Sapiens?

Since I have a bear-like attitude in RL. I think it is great. I have always wanted to play a were-bear and now I can

I’d like to think that you’re wrong, and that the question of norn origins will never be answered. I hate it when game developers, or anyone weaving a story, just up and answers the questions built in to it – I like my mysteries mysterious dang it!

But you’re probably right. Night elves are now definitively decended from trolls, and it now seems that the chantrys version of world history is in fact factual, to name a few. I mean, I liked to believe that night elves were in fact a species of troll, but now it’s no longer an exciting theory, it’s boring fact.

As to Ursus Sapiens, i’d say that it both is, and isn’t a stretch. For example, a bipedal species of bear, especially a predatory one, would probably evolve a short, flat face much like humans to move the center of mass closer to the spine so as to stabilize their vision when running. They would certainly also evolve long, strong legs to better capitalize on their bipedalism. Bears are already plantigrade, so no issue there, and kodan have thumbs, so this is a trait norn and kodan could have both inherited from a common ancestor.

On the stretch side though, why are the details of their faces so human? For example, humans evolved from arboreal ancestors who would not have had much use for a strong sense of smell. Bears however, have an excellent sense of smell, so why would the norn evolve tiny, weak, human noses? Then there’s the issue of body hair, humans evolved hairlessness in concert with a major increase in sweat glands as an alternative to panting and hairy insulation, this to better cope with heat exhaustion as a diurnal predator in very hot climates (at the cost of much higher water and sodium requirements). Norn would have evolved hairlessness (and probably sweat glands, do norn sweat?) in a frigid environment, which makes very little sense.

There’s also the question as to why the kodan would have retained so many bear-like traits that are obviously detrimental as a bipedal species.

This all of course doesn’t account for any and all wizardry and goddidits.

I realize this is probably way too technical an answer to your question, but as a man who studies human evolution i couldn’t help but explore the idea from a strictly evolutionary viewpoint.

i really don’t care much where then Norns come from, i just want to play as a Kodan!!! they are freaking awesome.

the night elf thing was exactly what I was thinking of. Blizzard basically gave one theory, but said elves denied it. They never gave another theory to keep the player guessing.. and then predictably, the theory was a fact. I generally take the “mystery” thing as a way of saying that “so and so’s back story is this but we won’t make it official until we are certain we don’t have any better ideas integrated with the gameplay.” Hence why rival theories are never introduced, just denial and stuff.

I know the idea is a stretch but I always find humor in those artistic promotions of evolution, the kind that show mankind directly evolving from a salmon, or Dennis Hopper playing a race of human that supposedly evolved from T-rex in that terrible Mario movie.

There is also a theory that Norn are related to Juton, However the lore that suggests it states that norn and Juton shared the same territory in an Age of giants and when both fell out of power the norn survived by joining the spirits where as the Juton fell into a primitive state. This doesn’t really indicate the 2 species are related or disprove Norn evolved from bears.

As for Kodan keeping bear traits that aren’t useful for a bipedal species.. perhaps they have some use we aren’t completely aware of.

I demand Kodan and Tengu become playable next expansion.

Bard.7215:

So, generally when a franchise gives a theory out about the origin of a race and adds “speculator”, this is generally a sign that the “answer is right in front of you”. I’ve witnessed this time and time again in several franchises.

With this in mind, it’s pretty obvious that the Kodan are right, the norn evolved from them.
(…)

I must have missed that, where does this “speculator” come from?

It’s a shame then that we apparently lost the ability to create some powerful magical artifacts. I’m more of a wolf-norn but Kodan is always good.
Usually, in evolutionary terms, … doesn’t the previous step …. vanish/die out? Unless it just happened recently maybe.

Bard.7215:

I know the idea is a stretch but I always find humor in those artistic promotions of evolution, the kind that show mankind directly evolving from a salmon, or Dennis Hopper playing a race of human that supposedly evolved from T-rex in that terrible Mario movie.

Yeah, my analysis was mostly an amusing thought experiment, video game evolution is rarely constrained by logic. :P

Bard.7215:

As for Kodan keeping bear traits that aren’t useful for a bipedal species.. perhaps they have some use we aren’t completely aware of.

I was thinking those traits might be linked to other, more beneficial traits, making changes to that part of the genome unlikely to stick. Although i suppose it might be sexual selection keeping the bear-traits alive. ^^

Rouven.7409:

Usually, in evolutionary terms, … doesn’t the previous step …. vanish/die out? Unless it just happened recently maybe.

That’s a common misconception, but evolution is not a ladder, it doesn’t have “steps”. Evolution is the accumulation of genetic changes within a gene pool, eventually those changes will have turned the creatures within that gene pool into brand new creatures. If a group is separated from the gene pool, then their new gene pool will still accumulate changes, and they will evolve in a different direction, to better suit their needs. There is no such thing as evolutionary leftovers, you’re either in the one gene pool, or the other.

Take for example chimps.

Many people think that humans evolved from chimps, and that when humans separated from chimps, chimp evolution suddenly stagnated, as if the universe was somehow done with them now, and was now busy creating humans and couldn’t be bothered with plain old chimps.

The reality is that when the chimp and human lineages separated, chimps kept evolving to fit a jungle environment, where tree climbing is king. Humans instead evolved to better fit a savannah environment, growing tall and bipedal. The chimp diet would have consisted of mostly nuts and fruits, which is low in calories, and since brain matter is the tissue that consumes the most calories in a mammalian body, for chimps, evolving a bigger brain would have meant they’d starve. Humans on the other hand started to find strategies to aquire meat, giving us the calories needed to grow bigger brains, which in turn let us figure out even better ways to find high calory foods such as meat.

Humans aren’t at the top of any “evolutionary ladder”, and the evolutionary tree doesn’t have a high or a low, it only has branches of common origin. Evolution doesn’t work towards a goal, and that goal is not us, we are merely a very successful variant of primate, no more, no less.

/Lecture over. Okay class, next time, we’ll talk about the history of spoons and their place in modern society!

Hrrmpf, another wall of text, I must learn to contain myself.

Anyway, back on topic.

It seems to me that since the norn are a shapeshifter race and can shift into many shapes, not just bears, especially given that the shapeshifting seems to be a gift from some kind of magical animal spirits, that a more likely scenario is that the kodan were simply norn permanently shifted by some sort of polar bear spirit.

This would fit with the kodan legend that the norn were a tribe of kodan, since oral history tends to reinterpret events in a way that puts the oral historian’s people center stage (no less true for regular history i suppose).

Personally I find either possibility facinating, because pretty much every culture that has ever shared habitat with bears has considered them sacred, or somehow more than an ordinary animal.

Ah yes, more branching and less “steps” ok, I was more thinking along the line of all the different variants of kitten XYZ’s that … well died out for one reason or another and iirc in some cases that was because of their next more successful relative driving them out or worse.

I still don’t know where this comes from though. Of course this is a fantasy environment, but shouldn’t there be some sort of however far fetched reasoning as to why?

Sign me up to play a kodan!

Can’t edit above – the kitten was supposed to be the word that comes before sapiens for example … should have guessed it would be kittened out.

Cuddlesworth.3187:

This all of course doesn’t account for any and all wizardry and goddidits.

Yeah … this … I imagine beings infused with shape shifting magic, in a world of active magic and knowable gods, plays havoc on sober scientific study of Tyrian evolutionary models.

it’s not evolution, it’s devolution.

The main difference is Kodan hold the code of koda, the spirit that just is and knows all. They do not question it.

Norn decided instead of trusting koda to leave and wander, finding spirits that hold qualities to their liking. As the spirits have died off, it is also a double edge to the Norn who have become spiritually weaker with every turn. Becoming human like happened because of poor writing. I would think however it happens because one spirit felt that they would be better off that way.
Eventually all the spirits will fade and norn will just be physically strong and nothing more. No more spirits of the wild to guide them.

Arsenal.2601:

Yeah … this … I imagine beings infused with shape shifting magic, in a world of active magic and knowable gods, plays havoc on sober scientific study of Tyrian evolutionary models.

Nevertheless, I am not deterred! ^.^

Garo.5304:

it’s not evolution, it’s devolution.

All change is evolution, even change one might think of as towards the lesser. Infact, creatures that evolve only towards becoming bigger, stronger, faster and better tend to be the first ones to go extinct when conditions change, famous examples include non avian dinosaurs, and the holocene megafauna.

Garo.5304:

The main difference is Kodan hold the code of koda, the spirit that just is and knows all. They do not question it.

Norn decided instead of trusting koda to leave and wander, finding spirits that hold qualities to their liking. As the spirits have died off, it is also a double edge to the Norn who have become spiritually weaker with every turn. Becoming human like happened because of poor writing. I would think however it happens because one spirit felt that they would be better off that way.

I’d like to point out that this is merely what the kodan believe (though the kodan don’t believe koda is just a spirit, they believe koda is the worlds creator), and while there might be some truth to it, the part about koda being so much more powerful and wise than the spirits that the norn worship, and that norn are somehow spiritually inferior to the kodan, seems like just the kind of religious propaganda that the members of a theocratic society would tend to espouse.

Garo.5304:

Eventually all the spirits will fade and norn will just be physically strong and nothing more. No more spirits of the wild to guide them.

That’s speculation, since we have no idea how the spirits of the wild came to be, and whether or not it was a one time thing.

Too much thought is going into folks replies here. Simple: they could have come from the kodan. It’s a possibility of a fictional story about a fictional race. Just go with it and go bear form at level 30

If an expansion is released and they include a new race you must think about which region they will be expanding. If they expand upon the areas around Kryta than it will be Kodan who become a playable race (if they make more playable races). If, however, they expand on Cantha than it will probably be the Tengu because they are, or at least were local to Cantha in their past. I don’t know what would happen in Elona though as I can’t remember any particular races of importance.