Guild Wars 2

I completed all World 1 and World 2 zones with full achieves (have backpack) without the ICC. I purchased it once I started Tribulation mode, where it is 100% needed.

Estimated stats on Worlds 1 and 2 Normal mode: Continues: Zero on World 1 (was a pro at them from April SAB). I’d estimate a total of 100-120 deaths (20-24 continues) on World 2. (~15-25 on Z1, ~35-50 Z2 (surprisingly easy when you take your sweet time and actually look for those dart traps), ~50-75 Z3 (a large chunk from trying to get the Moto Finger and from the final boss). That’s a total of 20-24 (1000-1200 baubles if you buy them) Continue coins needed for 100% Normal completion.

Personal estimated skill level: above average (I was able to complete Mad King’s clocktower in ~20 tries and then could complete it easily multiple times after that, so I’m no JP scrub).

1000-1200 baubles is certainly easy to obtain considering you can get ~400 daily if you decide to actually farm. ~OR~ figure out how much time it would take you to farm for that amount of baubles, honestly ask yourself how much you think your time is worth ($8/hr? $15/hr?) The Infinite Coin costs ~$7. Is that $7 worth saving you hours of farming? It is for most people. I honestly spent more on freaking Wendy’s last night…

I realize that you need to purchase the upgrades as well, but this can all be done on Infantile mode and should not result in deaths (other than Moto Finger area).

To summarize: It cost me probably 1200 baubles in Continue Coins to finish Normal mode W1 and W2 completely, including all achievements. Total bauble cost is higher since you have to purchase the upgrades, but we are talking about death cost, not upgrade cost. This is all very reasonable for a game. Those that complain really didn’t try hard enough. It got difficult and they quit. It’s a scary trend we’re seeing in the youth of today. If they aren’t great at something right away, they quit and try something else. Too much instant gratification, no one takes the time to learn how to do anything anymore.

NOTE: You can also get continue coins from JP chests, so think creatively if you want to boost your Continue Coins.

EDIT: Upon watching no death guides for Trib mode I have now realized the Infinite Coin is not needed at all. If you can’t afford the ICC, watch guides on how to do Trib mode and you’ll be fine.

Aerlen.5326:

Leablo.2651:

Ivonbeton.6814:

It’s how all games work and when you get punished hard for not knowing what to do (yet) or not being able to do it, it’s called difficulty.

This division you make between supposedly “mechanical difficulty” and “real difficulty” is imaginary.

It’s subjective, not imaginary. For example, to protect yourself from the absurd knockback physics, you can learn to conduct battles in more advantageous locations, and put your back to a wall. At this point, though, it certainly feels like you’re fighting the design more than you’re fighting the enemy, who is otherwise not so threatening.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, people are able to perceive the causes of difficulty differently, because in fact the causes are different. You are seriously underestimating players if you think we can’t tell the difference between something that is hard because the enemies are hard and something that is hard because gameplay is broken.

This existed all along in World 1 also, but that content was, overall, easy enough that the bugs and other problems could be overlooked. That’s no longer the case in World 2, which uses any excuse to throw you off a cliff. Even Ninja Gaiden was not this blatant, and like all of the good classics, that game had a variety of powerful weapons that served to both balance the gameplay and add fun factor. Even Mario could spam fireballs.

It seems to me that this indie-driven interpretation of the genre is not so much trying to recreate the feel of the classics so much as they are trying to one-up each other in seeing who can distill the entirety of the gameplay experience into difficulty and nothing more. On the other hand you have modern games that do higher difficulty the right way, like Demon’s Souls or the perennial shmups whose gameplay principles have not changed in the last two decades – games that keep the fun factor high even as they turn up the difficulty. Instead of daring people to play the game just so they can say they finished it. Which is precisely the area where World 2 and TM have gone.

I am amused that throughout this entire LS content, I’ve gotten to read replies defending glitchy content as “retro gaming” and “real difficulty” by people who weren’t even alive or old enough to hold a controller yet when the golden age of NES was going on. If they were, they’d understand the games they keep referencing are the best of the NES library and games that had glitchy knockbacks and IWTBTG type deaths were the ones that ended up in the bargain bin and had their titles forgotten because they were that incredibly broken and not fun for the majority of gamers. Jeckyl and Hyde, Athena, Back to the Future, Wizard of Oz, Friday the 13th.. all games with broken and glitchy game play. Ever hear them mentioned as classics in the same high regard as Metroid or Mario? NO! Because the glitchy punishing game play and poorly designed levels weren’t fun!

I really agree with the quote of trying to “one up” each other and make indie games about soul crushing difficulty. Guys, this isn’t “retro” gaming, it’s really not. I see Ninja Gaiden brought up a lot. Well here’s the thing about that game – yes it had a high difficulty level… but it was also fun. Lately, it seems people make hacks and indie games just to create the “impossible” game. I’ve watched LP’s, these people aren’t having fun, they are beating the game to say they beat it and nothing else. Back in the NES era, these games would be tossed in the bargain bin and never heard from again. The average player wants a good degree of fun mixed in with the difficulty. I never finished Ninja Gaiden but I didn’t need to, Ninja Gaiden was fun to play. I’ll never finish TM and it’s not fun at all for me to play, I’m not missing out on a thing by skipping it either.

But seriously, as a gamer of 35+ years, I can tell when I’m fighting the game and when I’m fighting the game engine/design and a good designer always makes sure a player is only fighting the first one.

Sir, you completely hit the point. +1

Leablo.2651:

It’s subjective, not imaginary. For example, to protect yourself from the absurd knockback physics, you can learn to conduct battles in more advantageous locations, and put your back to a wall. At this point, though, it certainly feels like you’re fighting the design more than you’re fighting the enemy, who is otherwise not so threatening.

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, people are able to perceive the causes of difficulty differently, because in fact the causes are different. You are seriously underestimating players if you think we can’t tell the difference between something that is hard because the enemies are hard and something that is hard because gameplay is broken.

So fighting the design doesn’t qualify as difficulty? This would mean that one jumping puzzle is as easy as the next because there are no difficult enemies. And what does broken gameplay even mean? You don’t die in TM world 2 if you do what you are supposed to do, it’s just that doing what you are supposed to do can be quite hard. I do admit there is a certain element of RNG involved, but by now I can run through any zone in TM fairly fast. I haven’t played everyday and I still managed to get 3 storm wizard skins so far. Only my first run was really brutal. This would mean the gameplay is broken for you, but not for me and most of my friends. Did I miss out on a patch?

On a sidenote, you should dodge jump anything with knockbacks. That’s the best (and I assume it’s the intended) way of dealing with those “absurd knockbacks”.

Leablo.2651:

And why not skill? Is it not skill to learn how to adapat fast and perform a series of difficult, precise tasks in a row without failing? Don’t you think that people who are less good at this will have a harder time and will thus give up easier or not finish it?

Sure, but what you just described need not involve a game in any fashion. You could just as easily test your skills in basket weaving in such a way. When you are using video games as a medium, the expectation is for it to have solid gameplay mechanics first, and then worry about difficulty after.

So now being good at basket weaving isn’t being skilled? Isn’t basket weaving a skill by definition? A skilled artisan is someone who takes something which is difficult at first and hones it over years of training to become better at it.

Leablo.2651:

I’m pleased and proud that I’m now a better ‘jumper’ than I was before and that I’m getting more yellow skins than the next one for being good at it. I’m sorry, but you can’t take that away from me.

And if we could take it away from you, would you still be playing?

Well you can’t, I’m a better at this than I was before and I enjoy beating it and trying to beat it even faster and smoother. How would you even take that experience away from me? Poison me or hypnotize me?

I see a lot of frustrated players who got turned down by the steep learning curve (and yes it is a very time consuming and steep learning curve). And try to convince themselves and others that they only die because the design and gameplay are so bad. Meanwhile I’m teaching guildies to do these TM zones and I can tell you that I have little problems guiding some of the worst ‘jumpers’ in my guild through most of the content. Only the last two zones are of a different category and I can only take the better players there.

EDIT: In response to the above comment, I’m closing in on 30 and I grew up aroudn uncles who were obsessed by games. So yes, I have played older games.

iplayBANJO.9543:

Groonz.7825:

I just don’t find tribulation mode concept to be fun at all. It’s a maze with a single route that you need to follow.

May have sounded cool and interesting on paper, but in practice it was a flop for me.

There’s actually not a single route to follow. I’ve watched several peoples youtube videos and so far none of them have taken the same route I did, in any world that I’ve watched.

Yeah, I’ve been watching videos aswell and I found some better routes thanks to that. Some of my routes are still the best ones though :p

SAB was ruined when they made tribulation mode ridiculously easy for the nooblets. There were only handful of people that were able to beat the tribulation mode (world-2) when it was what it was. Now after the nerf w2-z1 takes less than 10 mins to run through and z2-z3 together 50-60mins.. so with a flawless run w2 tribulation can be run under 60mins easily.
To be honest, world-2 tribulation was too easy to begin with, traps were too predictable and there could have been so much more :]

-Josh should reward us, those handful people that beat tribulation World-2 before the nerf, before there were any guides.

SAB hasn’t been ruined, i’d say it evolved (for better or worse, matter of personal opinion).
The only few gripes i have are: w2-2 is way too long (backtracking to shortcut eagle, anyone), some tribulation mechanics (jumping rocks, i’m looking at you) rely heavily on your network’s latency, which, for the most part is the biggest reason for failure.

Aerlen.5326:

I’ve watched LP’s, these people aren’t having fun, they are beating the game to say they beat it and nothing else.

I disagree with this on principle. Who are you to say that “beating the game to say they beat it” is not fun for some people? It may not be fun to you, but it sounds like Tribulation Mode was clearly not designed for players like you. That’s okay. Just move on and let those who do enjoy it have their fun. Why do you have to denounce it?

Adamantium.3682:

Aerlen.5326:

I’ve watched LP’s, these people aren’t having fun, they are beating the game to say they beat it and nothing else.

I disagree with this on principle. Who are you to say that “beating the game to say they beat it” is not fun for some people? It may not be fun to you, but it sounds like Tribulation Mode was clearly not designed for players like you. That’s okay. Just move on and let those who do enjoy it have their fun. Why do you have to denounce it?

I’ll give you an example: have you ever played Metro 2033 at maximum difficulty? Well there is a point where you have to go trough a corridor full of mobs with a NPC, if the NPC die, you loose.
The best way to do this is just run the kitten out of there.
It’ really, really, really easy.
But when you reach the safe zone you notice that, wait NPC is fithing the mobs and get ista kitten d. Game Over, try again.
So this point become one of the hardest in the game, not because was designed so but because the IA gets buggy, you are no longer fightning the game, you are fightning the stupid bad programmed IA.

Tribulation is the same thing, just made on purpouse.
This proves how Arena Net isn’t able to get real difficulty in jumping puzzles without using the engine’s flaws.

That shoudn’t be allowed, nor by players, nor by programmers, because if you thing to something like Ninja Gaiden and compare it to Tribulation you’re insulting Ninja Gaiden.
Ninja Gaiden is tough, but it’s fair, you’ll never lose because “Oh what the kitten fake ground? How could i possibly know?!” in Ninja Gaiden you lose because “Oh man, i should have dodged that, i should have parry that” etc-

This is why tribulation mode is bad, not because it is “hard” which is not, as i previously said hard means it takes skill to beat, tribulation requires trial and error and metagaming, but because it used the engine flaw’s against the player.

Even.6570:

Adamantium.3682:

Aerlen.5326:

I’ve watched LP’s, these people aren’t having fun, they are beating the game to say they beat it and nothing else.

I disagree with this on principle. Who are you to say that “beating the game to say they beat it” is not fun for some people? It may not be fun to you, but it sounds like Tribulation Mode was clearly not designed for players like you. That’s okay. Just move on and let those who do enjoy it have their fun. Why do you have to denounce it?

I’ll give you an example: have you ever played Metro 2033 at maximum difficulty? Well there is a point where you have to go trough a corridor full of mobs with a NPC, if the NPC die, you loose.
The best way to do this is just run the kitten out of there.
It’ really, really, really easy.
But when you reach the safe zone you notice that, wait NPC is fithing the mobs and get ista kitten d. Game Over, try again.
So this point become one of the hardest in the game, not because was designed so but because the IA gets buggy, you are no longer fightning the game, you are fightning the stupid bad programmed IA.

Wow… so what are the chances that encounter was designed to be skipped entirely by running? What you’re saying is that this part, which was obviously always meant to be very difficult, not really really really easy, is actually forced to be hard because of the NPC. The NPC is facilitating the design of the encounter by forcing you to not just run past it. And this is a bad thing, in your opinion…

You lost me.

Tribulation is the same thing, just made on purpouse.
This proves how Arena Net isn’t able to get real difficulty in jumping puzzles without using the engine’s flaws.

What “flaws” exactly are they using here? They’re creating tricks in the design by tweaking the engine in a way it wasn’t originally designed to be used. That’s not using flaws, it’s being innovative.

That shoudn’t be allowed, nor by players, nor by programmers, because if you thing to something like Ninja Gaiden and compare it to Tribulation you’re insulting Ninja Gaiden.
Ninja Gaiden is tough, but it’s fair, you’ll never lose because “Oh what the kitten fake ground? How could i possibly know?!” in Ninja Gaiden you lose because “Oh man, i should have dodged that, i should have parry that” etc-

This is why tribulation mode is bad, not because it is “hard” which is not, as i previously said hard means it takes skill to beat, tribulation requires trial and error and metagaming, but because it used the engine flaw’s against the player.

It’s actually really easy to find fake ground. The WTF moments are surprise spikes. But so what. This isn’t Ninja Gaiden. Ninja Gaiden was designed to be hard for hard sake. Tribulation Mode is designed to be a trip into the sadistic mind of the developer and to try and guess in what horrible ways he’s going to kill you. You should watch the LP videos of Tribulation Mode. You can tell when the player is starting to get it when they are afraid to go a certain way under the expectation of doom.

Once again, it’s not using flaws against you. It’s making you think, and question everything you see. It’s making you use hand eye coordination, you know, skills. There is no part of the game that is impossible. There is no part of the game based on luck. If you’re not good enough to complete it, then you’re not. If you are but don’t enjoy it, fine. But at what point is it reasonable to put down the design of the game just because these things are the case? It wasn’t made for you, move on and do something else.

Gotejjeken.1267:

Back in April, I completed all of W1 of SAB / all achievements. I thoroughly enjoyed it as it was a cool throwback in a modern game. The experience was pretty casual, and could be made ‘hardcore’ by gathering all the baubles, not dying, etc.

It would seem as if that has all changed. The whole of W2 and Tribulation Mode seem designed to be purposefully hard. Or rather, cheap. They turned a platformed inspired by legend of zelda and other old RPG games into…Battletoads? Memorize a bunch of things and call it good.

Mind you, I have not been past the rapids in world 2 or world 1 tribulation mode, however I really have no desire to either. Is this what any developer wants from content? SAB now boils down to this:

1. Buy infinite continue coin
2. Bash your head against every death possibility / read Dulfy
3. Die a lot anyway (tribulation mode)
4. Complete after hundreds of deaths and many hours
5. Call yourself ‘good’ and flash some weapon skins

Basically, if I want an unfair game to play I will go play one of the many better ones (see: Battletoads, Ninja Gaiden, I Wanna Be the Guy, Super Meat Boy, etc.). If I want a skin to flash I will just go grind out a legendary…

As a bit of an aside, for those who say the IFC is not necessary…have you completed all content without it? If you have, may I ask roughly how many deaths and how many hours you’ve put in?

I agree with you. World 1 was fun to do and I really liked it. Everyday I made at least 3 completely runs of all zones ‘cause I liked it. Now world 2 is really more time consuming and a lot harder to do. Of course World 2 should be harder than World 1 (as the philoshophy of old games mentions), but World 2 in difficulty I would say is scaled like World 6 or World 7 in traditional games.
They shouldn’t have made World 2 so time consuming. It gets really boring. And they shouldn’t have made World 2 so hard. It gets really annoying for fresh players (noobs) to even do One run.

Jimaruto.5389:

Gotejjeken.1267:

Back in April, I completed all of W1 of SAB / all achievements. I thoroughly enjoyed it as it was a cool throwback in a modern game. The experience was pretty casual, and could be made ‘hardcore’ by gathering all the baubles, not dying, etc.

It would seem as if that has all changed. The whole of W2 and Tribulation Mode seem designed to be purposefully hard. Or rather, cheap. They turned a platformed inspired by legend of zelda and other old RPG games into…Battletoads? Memorize a bunch of things and call it good.

Mind you, I have not been past the rapids in world 2 or world 1 tribulation mode, however I really have no desire to either. Is this what any developer wants from content? SAB now boils down to this:

1. Buy infinite continue coin
2. Bash your head against every death possibility / read Dulfy
3. Die a lot anyway (tribulation mode)
4. Complete after hundreds of deaths and many hours
5. Call yourself ‘good’ and flash some weapon skins

Basically, if I want an unfair game to play I will go play one of the many better ones (see: Battletoads, Ninja Gaiden, I Wanna Be the Guy, Super Meat Boy, etc.). If I want a skin to flash I will just go grind out a legendary…

As a bit of an aside, for those who say the IFC is not necessary…have you completed all content without it? If you have, may I ask roughly how many deaths and how many hours you’ve put in?

I agree with you. World 1 was fun to do and I really liked it. Everyday I made at least 3 completely runs of all zones ‘cause I liked it. Now world 2 is really more time consuming and a lot harder to do. Of course World 2 should be harder than World 1 (as the philoshophy of old games mentions), but World 2 in difficulty I would say is scaled like World 6 or World 7 in traditional games.
They shouldn’t have made World 2 so time consuming. It gets really boring. And they shouldn’t have made World 2 so hard. It gets really annoying for fresh players (noobs) to even do One run.

I can agree with this. I continue to do World 1, even in Tribulation Mode, cause it’s fun. But World 2 I’ve only done as much as I had to in order to get the achievements, cause I want the yellow backpack.

Not ruined yet, they can still salvage this with World 3. The thing is, TM is supposed to be hard, not normal mode. The addition of difficulty levels was great but the overall design of World 2 kind of made that pointless since even normal mode wasn’t nearly as fun as World 1 due to the increase in difficulty and cheap deaths. It didn’t even feel challenging, just CHEAP!

World 1 was like a Mario/Megaman game in that you can just go through it and have fun without having to really strain yourself. World 2 is more like Ninja Gaiden/Battle Toads where you have to memorize or die. Not fun. Leave the cheap deaths and steep learning curve for TM.

Gotejjeken.1267:

As a bit of an aside, for those who say the IFC is not necessary…have you completed all content without it? If you have, may I ask roughly how many deaths and how many hours you’ve put in?

I did not know the infinity coins existed until I read this

w2 normal only took me a full 2 hours
roughly 25 deaths ( but I also walked into same dart trap about 10 times because I kept accidentally dodge rolling)

Even.6570:

Adamantium.3682:

Aerlen.5326:

I’ve watched LP’s, these people aren’t having fun, they are beating the game to say they beat it and nothing else.

I disagree with this on principle. Who are you to say that “beating the game to say they beat it” is not fun for some people? It may not be fun to you, but it sounds like Tribulation Mode was clearly not designed for players like you. That’s okay. Just move on and let those who do enjoy it have their fun. Why do you have to denounce it?

I’ll give you an example: have you ever played Metro 2033 at maximum difficulty? Well there is a point where you have to go trough a corridor full of mobs with a NPC, if the NPC die, you loose.
The best way to do this is just run the kitten out of there.
It’ really, really, really easy.
But when you reach the safe zone you notice that, wait NPC is fithing the mobs and get ista kitten d. Game Over, try again.
So this point become one of the hardest in the game, not because was designed so but because the IA gets buggy, you are no longer fightning the game, you are fightning the stupid bad programmed IA.

Tribulation is the same thing, just made on purpouse.
This proves how Arena Net isn’t able to get real difficulty in jumping puzzles without using the engine’s flaws.

That shoudn’t be allowed, nor by players, nor by programmers, because if you thing to something like Ninja Gaiden and compare it to Tribulation you’re insulting Ninja Gaiden.
Ninja Gaiden is tough, but it’s fair, you’ll never lose because “Oh what the kitten fake ground? How could i possibly know?!” in Ninja Gaiden you lose because “Oh man, i should have dodged that, i should have parry that” etc-

This is why tribulation mode is bad, not because it is “hard” which is not, as i previously said hard means it takes skill to beat, tribulation requires trial and error and metagaming, but because it used the engine flaw’s against the player.

Again I ask who are you to say what is fun for other players? This content is clearly not for you, but many people out there like the style of Tribulation Mode. You can stay away from it, they can enjoy it. Win-win I would think.

The new world 2 is a joke. That is all I have to say.

Has SAB been ruined?

A lot of good points have been made, and I particularly agree with the ones along these lines:

- World 2 has done nothing to “ruin” the SAB.
- Tribulation Mode is distinctly separate, and anyone who chooses to do it should realize they are activating Hard Mode on a platformer. Its difficulty is NOT a reflection of the SAB in general.

I do not know if I’ll get any of the Trib achievements, much less all of them. I do, however, intend to get the full set of World 2 achievements done. (As many as possible without a guide, but I bookmarked Dulfy because I probably will need a few things at the end.)

I’m still undecided on the Coin. I’ll see how I feel about it once I’ve cleared the rest of W2 on NM (been a busy last week; only finished Infantile and got 2-1 done on normal). Operating on the assumption it will remain useful in future SAB releases, it’s probably a good investment. But I just don’t know.

That boom box is now tempting me, too. I mean, I have enough for both, but I WAS hoping there’d be a discount on slots or storage sometime soon.

For me, personally, I have to say yes. I got all the achievements in the first World. This time, I think I’ve done two if that. And, sadly, I have no interest in the others. Everything is too long, too annoying, and none-too-fun.

Even after the patch, I found my general dislike for SAB, World Two, too much too stomach.

Duke Darkwood.4237:

Has SAB been ruined?

A lot of good points have been made, and I particularly agree with the ones along these lines:

- World 2 has done nothing to “ruin” the SAB.
- Tribulation Mode is distinctly separate, and anyone who chooses to do it should realize they are activating Hard Mode on a platformer. Its difficulty is NOT a reflection of the SAB in general.

I do not know if I’ll get any of the Trib achievements, much less all of them. I do, however, intend to get the full set of World 2 achievements done. (As many as possible without a guide, but I bookmarked Dulfy because I probably will need a few things at the end.)

I’m still undecided on the Coin. I’ll see how I feel about it once I’ve cleared the rest of W2 on NM (been a busy last week; only finished Infantile and got 2-1 done on normal). Operating on the assumption it will remain useful in future SAB releases, it’s probably a good investment. But I just don’t know.

That boom box is now tempting me, too. I mean, I have enough for both, but I WAS hoping there’d be a discount on slots or storage sometime soon.

I also think we’ll be able to use the Coin on future SAB, that’s why I bought it. If you’re planning to do Tribulation definitely get it. You can just step into TM if you’re not sure, try it a bit and see what you think. Otherwise, normal mode should be OK with normal coins. Also don’t forget TM gives different color weapons, only green and yellow for now, but we’ll probably have red and purple as well with W3 and W4 so if you want those, Coin is a must, IMO. At the very least it’s less frustrating when dying, having infinite amount of lives.