Guild Wars 2

Fair Warning: This is going to be somewhat long, as I’m sure you can see. I do not believe in TL;DR, as I do not believe that such grossly abbreviated debates on certain subjects are possible or worth having. For those who take the time to read my opinions, thoughtful comments in agreement or disagreement are both welcome.

Disclaimer: I want to congratulate those of you who do have a lot of fun with SAB, as well as clarify that I do not advocate the removal of SAB (as if it would make a difference at this point). I merely want to point out the general problems that I have with platforming minigames such as this in the hopes that anet can better understand where I and a certain portion of the base may take issue.

Inb4: For those of you who will say that I should ignore SAB and move on, that is precisely what I intend to do from now on. However, for a cheevo-hunter like myself, ignoring large releases like this using the “see no evil, hear no evil” approach is less than ideal. Furthermore, the value of voicing an opinion here is that the devs may take such thoughts into consideration for future content. If they choose to go in a different direction than I wish, that is their prerogative as well, although in that case I will most likely end up finding a different way to spend my leisure time. However, I have a vested interest at this point and would like to continue on with gw2, and that is why pieces such as these are worth our time to write.

Finally, I want to say that regardless of what I have written below, I think the SAB team did an amazing job on creating a great platformer. There is really not much to find fault with when SAB is taken as a standalone game, and I do not want anybody to read my comments as any sort of attack upon the SAB team or their product. If SAB had been released as a non-canon offshoot minigame for Nintendo Wii, I would have thought it was fantastic (although I do not own a Wii). The reasons that I find SAB less fun have very little to do with SAB itself, sadly, but mostly involve the framework and context in which it has been placed.

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Now, onto the two main issues I have with SAB:

1) The random factor. I’m not talking about RNG here, but rather, the randomness of having a Mario-type experience in gw2. We all know that anet loves its minigames with the LS. However, when I delve into an MMO, I am doing it to play an MMO, not Mario, or Mario Kart, or what have you.

To be fair, many of the minigames are fun; I enjoyed sanctum sprint and survival for what they were worth. However, they at least fit within the artistic style and lore of the game and served to supplement, if not necessarily advance, the living story. I am aware that SAB was most likely put into production before the devs decided to push hard for a LS. I am also aware of the lore that was put into place to explain its existence in Tyria. However, the cultural weight of Mario and all old-school Nintendo games is such that incorporating SAB into gw2 significantly detracts from the credibility of Tyria as a world, and the paper-thin lore created for it does little to lessen that effect. When I play an RPG, I appreciate immersion, and SAB takes away from what gw2 had going for it, which was already regrettably weak.

In short, Mario is great; I simply do not believe that it belongs here. I grew up in that era as well, and I appreciate the references and the nostalgic factor. I love homages and that sort of thing as much as the next person. It is just unfortunate that a tangential minigame should detract from the primary experience of an RPG for me and others of like mind. This is not the experience I want in an MMO; even if SAB is great in its own right, it does not sit well with me when forced into this particular gaming context.

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2) This is not a console, and the control, camera, and hardware limitations show. Platforming is great (if you enjoy it), but only when it works. And unfortunately, a lot of the time it simply does not work well enough in gw2 to not be a painfully frustrating experience for me. I am sure there are plenty of people out there who can run things flawlessly. People occasionally wonder out loud how others can have such trouble with jumping puzzles. If you are one of these people, you should count yourself fortunate, but at the same time, I would ask that you recognize that there are those of us less fortunate out there who do not enjoy such content, did not buy the game for such content, did not anticipate such content having an increasingly significant presence in gw2, and to varying extents find such content artificially difficult to complete due to technical issues.

From a technical standpoint, if the devs were to put out a companion gw2 minigame on PS3 and xbox, sure. It would be relatively stable for everybody who picks it up (insert xbox/ps3 joke here). If gw2 was developed as a platformer first and RPG second, sure. However, on PC where every rig is different from the next and in an RPG where the controls and camera have not been optimized for a platforming experience (even if they are adequate to complete the content on), problems can arise.

Platformers depend on quick responses, which in turn require consistent and responsive controls. Platformers rely on precision of movement, which requires a stable, smooth framerate and a great camera. I posit that gw2 (for quite a few people) lacks these elements due to various reasons (being a PC game, being an online game, being an MMO). My hardware is slightly dated, but it is hardly a toaster. The occasional hiccup or split-second freeze is completely unnoticeable in the rest of the game, to the point where I am not even sure if it occurs; during a jump over a chasm of insta-death, it is quite apparent when it happens, and it frequently can happen three or four times in a row in SAB for me. There are few things more aggravating than trying to complete a difficult jump (e.g. curving in midair around an obstacle, landing on a small target, or avoiding attacks and traps) and failing due to technical reasons, thereby both losing resources (repair costs, baubles, continue coins) and time (several minutes running/jumping back).

I have experienced quite a few of these: I press the space bar and do not jump, but instead walk off the edge; my screen freezes in midair, either causing me to miss my target or causing my character to simply fall straight down; my camera movement is jerky, causing similar problems; my internet lags, causing me to run off edges or warp back and forth, making me uncertain of where my character actually is; the camera zooms in all the way in on my character, effectively blinding me completely, etc., etc.

I am certain that I am not alone in this regard. Now, one may say that these problems exist for all PC games and are not limited solely to SAB, and that as such, they should not preclude the devs from incorporating more jumping puzzles into the game. To that, I can only say that jumping puzzles are far more punishing to movement and camera issues than most other aspects of the game. Yes, if a dodge does not register here or the internet lags and your skills don’t respond there it can mean death, but by and large, all that happens is that you spam the offending button one or two more times until you receive the desired effect. The precision-based nature of jumping puzzles is simply not suited to an environment that is any less than 99.9% stable.

These two factors, the immersion-killing and rocky platforming, are my major gripes with SAB, but I am sure opinions on the matter differ as widely as the people voicing them. If you have made it this far, thank you for your continued patience; again, all thoughtful comments are welcome. Cheers

There’s definitely no lore behind Super Adventure Box and it clashes entirely with Asuran culture. There’s no way the Asuran’s could build something advanced AND technological at the same time. Just as well, nobody at all has been able to play Super Adventure Box without experiencing a myriad of bugs every twenty attempts that are so game crippling that completion is merely an unobtainable dream.

Well anyway, I’m gonna go back to playing the loreless Super Adventure Box. I have issues completing a jump every now and then that I, too, like to blame on RNG and poor technical precision.

Hmm
1.)The immersion thing in GW2 is kinda weak because of all the fast traveling and loading times with poorly written characters and story so that is not a big thing for me BUT I have to say imo it fits quite nicely into the world. Now we even got a back story.
Asuras are pretty smart and now one has build a holodeck which has no influence to the outside.
It certainly is not more controversial than time- or dimension traveling.(mecha creatures)

2.) I do not understand why so many people do not want jumping puzzles in the game. That thing is really a new thing in mmo’s and Arenanet build them in exactly right. At no point in the game you have to do them if you do not want to.
I guess people do not want them because they just want the same in every mmo while screaming for something new that in the end not want.
They are also working very good for me. I know exactly how far I jump and where I will land and that is what you need in a good platformer.

3.)If you are having problems because of your tech…that is not really valid critic imo.

I enjoy the content. It offers something which uses the mechanics of the game but makes them feel different. It is challenging and introduces a lot of fun new mechanics.

Immersion and MMOs rarely go well together. Besides, SAB is tucked away into Rata Sum so how does it ruin it exactly?

I am sorry you feel that way, PBag; even I do not feel that SAB is nearly that bad. I was at least able to complete it.

Seriously though, hyperbole is rarely helpful to having a meaningful discussion.

Wolf, I am a cheevo hunter; I absolutely agree that SAB can and should be ignored for those who do not enjoy it, but for future releases, I hope that they do not place such great emphasis on JPs. Just my opinion, that is all. I’m glad that SAB is here for the rest of you, though!

I only really agree with point 2. Growing up with all the traditional consoles, and a few some flops/rarities, trained me to expect near perfect accuracy from both myself and the hardware I was playing on. Buffers and associated latency were rare phenomena given the price of digital electronics (transistors were once only measured in the thousands, and could cost nearly the same in dollars depending on use), and CRTs basically just threw analog signal at their screens as fast as they could scan.

This cannot really be duplicated in any reliable way today, MMO wise. The high variance in what we all use to play PC games, where we live in relation to the servers our clients connect to (even the time of day for some unlucky net subscribers), and the input/output methods we use (long throw, membrane switch keyboards? frequency doubled, artificially contrasted, DRM/HDCP/DSP riddled LCD panels? ugh.) all add to experiences that can range from accessible to frustrating.

The experience in SAB is a nice homage – and I really have enjoyed the break from the standard Tyria – but that’s all it can be. IMO.

Ghist, it’s nice to hear that things work well for you. While I would not discount SAB entirely based on a set of technical hiccups, I think I am not alone in this. If SAB could be optimized to work perfectly, that would certainly be a decent solution to the technical aspect. However, due to the aforementioned factors (internet, variation in users’ PC quality, camera, etc.), I believe it will be somewhat difficult. And after all, anet must try to produce content that as much of its base as possible can enjoy.

Moreover, please understand that it’s not that I hate jumping puzzles so much that I want them gone on principle. There are two substantial ways in which they affect me and gamers like me:

1) The lost creation of potentially more enjoyable content, as resources/dev teams will be occupied making JPs

and

2) The loss of potential achievement points from not doing JPs

As to the lore, I still don’t buy it; it is quite hard for me to see past the Mario effect, unfortunately.

I couldn’t agree more with your hyperbole comment. I was being sarcastic, you were being hyperbolic. The point was to lacerate by focusing on the absolute core of your argument. And it’s a weak one. A very very weak one. Nothing about the SAB is game breaking. Anybody who complains, should leave it alone. Why complain? What exactly are you trying to change? Technical proficiency of something that is totally doable despite the random errors that really aren’t all that bad? Or are you wanting more story that you think you are entitled to because of the monstrous amount of subscription fees you pour into this game? Or are you just wanting people to see your opinion so they can agree with it? Or are you wanting people to disagree so you can have an argument?

In all cases, you will get nothing of value, because if you do, you’ll devalue it by being ungrateful.

If Gw2 was moving in a direction where all they are/will release are jumping puzzles, then I would understand OP’s point. However, this is temp content that lasts for a month so in that case, just don’t do it like you said in your post.

More so, I do not understand why you are even complaining about temp content. What you should be doing is demanding Anet, as a paying customer, that they add more permanent content. So that when SAB comes back again, which it will, then you don’t have to complain about not liking SAB because you will be busy doing other content.

Pen, I agree that it is a great homage; I just can’t shake the feeling that it doesn’t belong here. For the people who love it and for whom it works smoothly, I am happy for them, as they get a free minigame. For myself, as my individual feeling is that it detracts from the feel and potential development of the primary game, I would like to see it stop here, at SAB. If I want a break from Tyria and MMOs, after all, I can just do something else entirely.

But yes, great for those who enjoy it, and I would like to reiterate again for everyone in general that I do not advocate taking SAB out or anything crazy like that

Caramel, I believed it was very much temp content when SAB ended back in the early part of the year. Now, however, they have announced plans for… 4 worlds, is it? I would have to check.

I absolutely agree that permanent content would be great, but one bridge at a time, my friend. It seems that anet is really pushing hard for temp content at the moment, and all indications I have seen so far are that they have put pretty much all their resources into it.

I understand and respect the idea that you don’t like jumping puzzles. I play with many friends in game who don’t like them either.

I do not at all respect the idea that jumping puzzles should not give achievement points (or should be removed on some made-up “principle” because they do give points). You’re essentially saying only the things you can do or enjoy doing should be rewarding. That’s extremely selfish, and I’m glad the devs don’t think like you do.

One last note about the whole “taking away content from other parts of the game”. You need to understand that games, especially big ones like GW2, have different teams. Different teams do different things. Aside from the whole selfish factor of you needing the devs to only be working on what you want, who’s to say they would be developing content like dungeons if SAB was never allowed to exist? Given the minds behind this and what they are talented at and clearly enjoy, it’d probably be something you hate just as much.

Bottom line, don’t be selfish.

Adamantium, I am afraid you read too much into my post; I did not advocate removing achievement points from SAB. Nor did I advocate removing SAB entirely from the game. I expect that they will continue to develop it well into the future.

My only wish is that they leave SAB for the jumping fans, but do not take it much farther than that. We have seen quite a few JPs in other LS events such as the aetherblades, although the past few have thankfully (opinion) not been that way.

spikyblackhair.4951:

Moreover, please understand that it’s not that I hate jumping puzzles so much that I want them gone on principle. There are two substantial ways in which they affect me and gamers like me:

1) The lost creation of potentially more enjoyable content, as resources/dev teams will be occupied making JPs

and

2) The loss of potential achievement points from not doing JPs

I responded to these two quotes specifically. Both of these statements are incredibly selfish. Whether or not this is SAB specific, or JPs in general, my comments do not change.

Adamantium.3682:

spikyblackhair.4951:

Moreover, please understand that it’s not that I hate jumping puzzles so much that I want them gone on principle. There are two substantial ways in which they affect me and gamers like me:

1) The lost creation of potentially more enjoyable content, as resources/dev teams will be occupied making JPs

and

2) The loss of potential achievement points from not doing JPs

I responded to these two quotes specifically. Both of these statements are incredibly selfish. Whether or not this is SAB specific, or JPs in general, my comments do not change.

I am sorry they came off that way, I can certainly see how you might interpret them like that. I did not intend for that to be the primary takeaway for readers.

I was just trying to explain to the other poster how content still affects those who do not play the content. I am not 100% against JPs; I just do not want another major JP release like SAB, although I am fine with SAB being continued.

I fully respect that other people have differing opinions on where they want the game to be. I am simply voicing my own wishes here, and those personal wishes are somewhat selfish, I suppose. For example, I would certainly be unlikely to make a post here talking about how I hope they include more Call of Duty-type gameplay in gw2 for the CoD fans, haha.

Despite my selfishness for voicing where I hope the game to go in the future and my assessment of JPs in general, however, I am not quite so selfish (I hope) as to demand or expect that everything go exactly my way. I hope that I have not done so explicitly, but I am sorry that everybody here seems to have taken my words as such. If I have, please show me the offending statements and I will remove them.

My attitude is that I personally dislike doing JPs and do not hope to see increasing emphasis on them in the future, but if enough people like them that anet decides to develop further in that direction, then I will simply acknowledge that I differ too greatly from the rest of the fan base and part ways with no hard feelings.

To hope that more things that are added to fit your preferences is completely fine in my book. To hope against things simply because you don’t like them is where I have the issue. It’s kind of a silly line to draw, I get that, but the former is being positive and optimistic while the latter is being negative and selfish.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your position. I respect that SAB is not your favorite content, and I do hope that we see some more things that suit your tastes better down the road. Until then, you can find me in the Adventure Box

Your feelings are quite understandable; if only anet had infinite resources, and we could all be satisfied! Oh well, c’est la vie. Enjoy SAB

I must have been playing a different build from OP these last few days. I’ve spent most of the last three days inside SAB so much so I only emerged just today to do one daily achievement and level up my character for the first time in the last 72 hours.

While I would rather avoid reading the nonsense and whining I see on these forums it’s clear I need to add my own voice since the devs read these forums and get misled by the small minority of people who aren’t playing the game and come on these forums instead to try to ruin a great experience for the rest of us.

Just today I noticed they nerfed some elements of the SAB, including placing fewer exploding flowers in some of the tribulation levels. Who on Earth complained about tribulation being so hard they nerfed some parts of it? And they nerfed the rushing water areas which no longer feel challenging.

OP, you need to stop it. Stop your whining. Your post is a fine example of nitpicking in a very ugly form. The platforming is fine. The jumping puzzles are fine. I applaud Arena Net for making 3D platforming feel as close as I have ever experienced to my fun experiences with 2D platforming in MegaMan games. It’s genius and I frequent the Gem Store to show my appreciation.

Thanks, Zeigy, for taking the time to reply. You are right that your voice needs to be heard; I only regret that you do not grant the same respect to me.

There seems to be a bit of misplaced aggression going around the SAB forum that has resulted in some unnecessary hostility in my thread, which in turn has overshadowed or replaced meaningful debate much of the time. As such, I am going to end things here; I have put in my 2c for the devs, and see no reason to wait here for more tomatoes to come my way

Thanks everyone.