Guild Wars 2

You pay, you gain an advantage. You have more time to attempt SAB, and more leeway for deaths. It is that simple.

I do not mind that SAB is pay to win, but the fact is it IS pay to win.

Also, with how bad GW2’s code handles oceanic ping, it is pretty much a necessity for oceanic players who want to do everything.

Avatara.1042:

Also, with how bad GW2’s code handles oceanic ping…

I thought that was called “SONAR”?

I couldn’t help it. I probably could have, but not this time.

Avatara.1042:

You pay, you gain an advantage. You have more time to attempt SAB, and more leeway for deaths. It is that simple.

You can earn 200 lives or so in half an hour, simply by farming W1. That’s enough to make W2 on normal and W1 on TM, if following guides, and by doing this, you’l learn 200-300 lives more, enough to complete W2 on TM with guides. ICC isn’t really saving any significant amount of time. Not to mention you first have to spend some time to earn gems.

Did you just say ‘following guides’? Well, there goes your argument.

WyldKat.4712:

Avatara.1042:

Also, with how bad GW2’s code handles oceanic ping…

I thought that was called “SONAR”?

I couldn’t help it. I probably could have, but not this time.

Heh :P

Did you read my post? Half of an hour of farming is enough to complete 2 Worlds. There goes your argument about “saving time”.
With guides or not, it doesn’t matter – I truly doubt there exists someone that never ever consulted with some kind of guide; and if you really want to do TM without guides – well, spend 15 more minutes for farm, and do as you wish.

Half an hour, and a guide, to complete the easiest bits. What happens when you get to the more difficult stuff? Right, you die more. A lot more. And if you are an Oceanic player? Constantly.

Oh and you think 15 minutes extra is enough to do TM without a guide? Lol…

The ICC doesn’t really have an advantage. It only saves you 15 minutes of World 1 facerolling, which alone gives you 190 lives, enough for zone 1 and 2 in world 1 if you are a good player.

My guildmates went through world 1 and 2 of tm and they didn’t need a guide or the ICC. If the ICC was P2W it would be impossible to do it without the coin, but it was possible.

The coin is pay to be lazy, nothing more, just like the infinite gathering tools. It won’t help you win the TM, you still have to be good at jumping and memorizing to get through both worlds.

Avatara.1042:

Half an hour, and a guide, to complete the easiest bits. What happens when you get to the more difficult stuff? Right, you die more. A lot more. And if you are an Oceanic player? Constantly.

Oh and you think 15 minutes extra is enough to do TM without a guide? Lol…

That’s why I don’t like stubborn players… OK, precise mode on.
W1-1: 40 baubles from the dig sites, 100 baubles just to pick up, 2BB and 1 CC. Honeycomb and smashing items in the shops are excluded. Estimated time of run – 5 minutes.
W1-2: 240 baubles from dig sites (excluding the one after the Shortcut Wurm), ~190 to pick up, 2BB and 1 CC. Honeycomb and smashing items in shops excluded. Estimated time of run – 10-15 minutes (with backtracking in Area 2). Total: 570 baubles, 4 BB.
W1-3: 180 baubles from dig sites, 119 to pick up, 2BB and 1 CC. Honeycomb and smashing items in the shops are excluded. Estimated time of run: 10 minutes. Total: 869 baubles, 6 BB.
So, 25-30 minutes for 9BB and 3CC, that gives you 240 lives. That is enough to complete the whole W1 in tribulation mode with guides for a newbies or without guides for a skilled player, for non-oceanic players.
TM gives you 750 baubles, that’s 75 lives – enough to complete the W2 in normal mode with guides for a newbies or without guides for a skilled player, for non-oceanic players.
There’s no full list of dig sites and baubles for the world 2 and I’ll skip it for now.
So, it is possible for a skilled non-oceanic player to make both worlds and W1 in tribulation mode without guides, starting with 0 coins and no ICC. Any questions?

As an Oceanic player, I’ll start by saying that without the ICC, I’d probably have ragequit on TM long before now. (Or even normal mode. Rapids + latency is a recipe for disaster.) The amount of times that I died due to the game thinking I was standing in lava/acid/spikes when I was clearly on safe ground… well, I stopped counting around lost life 50.

The funny part is, I’m using the ICC for exploring new zones, and STILL using normal Continue Coins for TM. The reason why is because using 5 Continue Coins gives you 25 lives, which means less trips back to Moto.

Siphaed.9235:

I converted 30g, completely earned in-game through the Scarlet Invasions (normal play and NOT FAIL FARMING), to Gems and purchased the Infinite Continue Coin. Not a single dollar shed from my pocket, yet I was still able to obtain this “Pay 2 Win” item. Curious how, if it’s truly “P2W” that it’s obtainable in-game?

P.S. Didn’t use it at all until I started Tribulation mode as the 5 coins Moto sent me -in addition to the 7 banked ones from April- were more than sufficient to do W1 & W2 in Normal mode.

Because you were forced to pay 30g for it, otherwise you couldn’t complete tribulation mode and get tribulation achievements.

Shpongle.6025:

Siphaed.9235:

I converted 30g, completely earned in-game through the Scarlet Invasions (normal play and NOT FAIL FARMING), to Gems and purchased the Infinite Continue Coin. Not a single dollar shed from my pocket, yet I was still able to obtain this “Pay 2 Win” item. Curious how, if it’s truly “P2W” that it’s obtainable in-game?

P.S. Didn’t use it at all until I started Tribulation mode as the 5 coins Moto sent me -in addition to the 7 banked ones from April- were more than sufficient to do W1 & W2 in Normal mode.

Because you were forced to pay 30g for it, otherwise you couldn’t complete tribulation mode and get tribulation achievements.

You were not, my friends did it with about 40 coins per person to finish W1 Tribulation mode without the help of guides.

Shpongle.6025:

Because you were forced to pay 30g for it, otherwise you couldn’t complete tribulation mode and get tribulation achievements.

Oh wow. Paying gold to win is pay to win? By this logic, the book that lets you learn grandmaster traits is pay to win as well.

C’mon, everybody’s got gold in the bank from the queens’ gauntlet loot fest, and even if you haven’t it doesn’t take that long to get up to 30g.

If you guys are mad about being able to get an event item faster with gems, you’re going to be really mad when you find out you can buy gems and convert them to gold and buy legendaries too.

Is this pay to win? I’m not sure. What I do know is that this upsets me that we see a difficulty spike in SAB and then… Oh look guys, here’s an infinite continue coin for 600 gems. Gem store purchases cost an unrealistic amount of gold, so the argument that you can use gold doesn’t fly for me. Although I do make an occasional gem store purchase using real money, I won’t support this type of marketing tactic.

I bought a coin cause i’d rather go to the continue screen every 11 lives instead of 6. That’s the only reason.

I could have easily farmed enough coins to do tb 1-1 without a guide (took me ~200 lives btw) by doing world 1 once (7 bauble bubble + 3 continue coin + ~1000 baubles = 58 continue coins = 348 lives). This world 1 run takes me about 40 minutes max.

You also get about 20-25 coins worth for finishing a trib stage.

Though to be honest i probably would not go into world 2-2/2-3 without 150 coins just to be safe. Just because they are so long.

Odinsfury.8360:

What I do know is that this upsets me that we see a difficulty spike in SAB and then… Oh look guys, here’s an infinite continue coin for 600 gems.

You make Josh sad. The difficulty spike is not the result of the coin, it’s the result of trying to make something fun and in the style of old school games. The coin was probably the result of testers failing and wishing they had cheat codes. Their problem though was that they released the coin at the very start, when they should have waited a week or two and released it as a “need help?” item for those struggling.

Quite a few people share your opinion and because of that, future SAB worlds may suffer for it. SAB saw a reduction in participation, which Josh blames the difficulty and your opinion on the infinite coin for, though there are other factors of course, like it not being profitable, at all. To get more players participating, Josh might cave and completely nerf it.

The infinite coin is truly only needed if you want to beat tribulation mode first, on day 1 without any guides. World 2 can seem hard at first, but once you understand it, it’s really not.

Read his personal blog if you want some behind the scenes insight.

AmIAnnoyingNow.2903:

I bought a coin cause i’d rather go to the continue screen every 11 lives instead of 6. That’s the only reason.

But, you can put in multiple coins at once, so if you have 10 coins, you can retry with 50 lives.

The fact that there are guides available at this point showing how to do Tribulation mode with zero deaths, there really is no more point to argue whether this coin is P2W or not.

If you feel ICC is P2W then you should be happy that those suckers paid money for something, then created a guide that allows those that don’t want to buy the ICC to complete the exact same content for the exact same achievements in SIGNIFICANTLY less time than it took those that figured it out on their own.

If anything, the ICC is P2W for those that didn’t buy it…you reap the benefits of others’ hard work…

If you feel the ICC isn’t P2W, then you are an intelligent human being.

The fact that at this point Tribulation mode can be completed by anyone with or without the Infinite Continue coin completely nullifies the P2W argument. Follow the guides. We all know that guides are used for Normal mode (for bauble locations and such), so there’s no sense in acting all high and mighty and saying guides for Trib mode are cheating. If you’ve already used guides for Normal then use the guides for Tribulation. Same idea, everyone wins. No one is P2W.

Healix.5819:

But, you can put in multiple coins at once, so if you have 10 coins, you can retry with 50 lives.

Ha, really? I wouldn’t have bought if i’d known that. I got to trib without continuing cause I had 99 lives when the event started. xD

Draknar.5748:

The fact that there are guides available at this point showing how to do Tribulation mode with zero deaths, there really is no more point to argue whether this coin is P2W or not.

I SEE there are “zero death” guides.

Executing them is the fun part.
ACHOO Darn.
My leg itches. Darn.
Cat foul! Darn.
Mom! Darn.
blink Darn.

WyldKat.4712:

Draknar.5748:

The fact that there are guides available at this point showing how to do Tribulation mode with zero deaths, there really is no more point to argue whether this coin is P2W or not.

I SEE there are “zero death” guides.

Executing them is the fun part.
ACHOO Darn.
My leg itches. Darn.
Cat foul! Darn.
Mom! Darn.
blink Darn.

I dont blink when I do trib mode. It’s too much to think about.

It’s not pay to win, it’s pay to save time. I’ve done all the trib modes except 2-3, bought every item, and I have 65 more coins sitting in my inventory, which is more than I could possibly need.

The only people forced to buy the infinite coin are the people who make guides and need to get them out fast.

WyldKat.4712:

Draknar.5748:

The fact that there are guides available at this point showing how to do Tribulation mode with zero deaths, there really is no more point to argue whether this coin is P2W or not.

I SEE there are “zero death” guides.

Executing them is the fun part.
ACHOO Darn.
My leg itches. Darn.
Cat foul! Darn.
Mom! Darn.
blink Darn.

You forgot the “Latency says you’re standing in lava/spikes/pits when your screen shows you standing on safe ground!” Darn.

imho the problem is it removes the possibility of failure

with it you
*have infinite attempts from your last checkpoint

without it you
*have to buy more coins with baubles/ fight rng at puzzles

*have to start again when you run out of coins

*have the possibility of actually failing due to using your coins getting to the same point you are having difficulty with when returning after getting more coins

Shadow Blade.1324:

imho the problem is it removes the possibility of failure

What you’re saying is that it’s impossible, given the ICC, for any player to not be able to complete SAB TM. Really? It doesn’t give super powers for crying out loud, it just saves you some time.

Adamantium.3682:

Shadow Blade.1324:

imho the problem is it removes the possibility of failure

What you’re saying is that it’s impossible, given the ICC, for any player to not be able to complete SAB TM. Really? It doesn’t give super powers for crying out loud, it just saves you some time.

you have infinite attempts from your last checkpoint, the only way to not eventually complete it is to choose to leave and not continue trying, or possibly have a client crash etc(which is a general problem the game has) however, you still have infinite attempts when you return, compared to someone who has lost progress and continue coins

i don’t think it’s pay to win. it’s pay to have an easier life, if anything.

could there be someone out there, who can buy 10,000 infinite continue coins and still be unable to complete a single given TM zone? i want to say, yes. there just might be.

so does that equal pay to win?

and sure Shadow, but choosing to leave and not continuing to try does not equal “winning” either, whatever you guys are arguing winning is here with the ICC.

bottom line having ICC does not equal winning and conquering SAB, regular or TM.

akamon.2769:

i don’t think it’s pay to win. it’s pay to have an easier life, if anything.

could there be someone out there, who can buy 10,000 infinite continue coins and still be unable to complete a single given TM zone? i want to say, yes. there just might be.

so does that equal pay to win?

and sure Shadow, but choosing to leave and not continuing to try does not equal “winning” either, whatever you guys are arguing winning is here with the ICC.

bottom line having ICC does not equal winning and conquering SAB, regular or TM.

i didn’t say choosing to leave was “winning” its also not failing, its choosing to no longer make attempts/play the content at that time.

failure isn’t a choice, it removes you from the box and resets your progress

this is probably a bad analogy, but its the best i can think of;

lets make a comparison with say soloing any legendary boss, in that context it “doesn’t let you win”, you still have to use your attacks etc, but it prevents health resetting and it leaving, so regardless of if all your Armour breaks, you die 10,000 times you win simply by repeatedly chipping away at it, as long as you keep trying

it doesn’t equal an automatic win so much as trivialize the content by removing the ability to fail it, you just have to be persistent.

I think your premise that you can “chip away” at TM is wrong. Many players simply don’t have the timing and/or coordination to make some of the required jumps.

I also think it’s pretty silly to say giving up and leaving because you can’t do it isn’t failing. Of course it is! You gave up, you can’t do it, you failed. Just because you choose to leave doesn’t make it any less of a failure compared to someone who ran out of lives.

You’re giving the ICC special powers that it doesn’t actually have.

technically, the ICC is what it is, an infinite amount of continue coins. one can farm all the coins they want, if they are “persistent”, and achieve the same as the ICC does. dare i say there are players out there who can now go through each and every single TM zone without using a coin once – regular or ICC. were they only able to conquer TM because they had ICC? i don’t think that’s the key factor here.

now if you’re someone like me who can spend all 9 lives trying to get past a certain zone, the difference between the ICC and using regular coins is that i don’t have to farm non stop before i can finish any given zone in TM.

i see where you’re coming from with your analogy. but with the legendary boss, if you keep grave zerging, and the boss’ health doesn’t reset, yes you can keep “chipping away” at the bosses health and eventually “win”. to echo what Adamantium (snikt!) said, with SAB, even if you use the ICC, you can still keep failing the same jump. and just because you keep repeating the same jump ("hitting the boss over and over), doesn’t mean the distance you have to jump gets shortened each time and then eventually you can just step over. every time you use a coin, you’re set back to square 1 for that jump.

bottom line – ICC = not having to grind. it’s a quality of life item to me, if you will. yes, a HUGE quality of life item. but still a quality of life item. we can agree it’s not an automatic win, though, nor is it an eventual win just because i get infinite attemps at any given jump or series of jumps. you still have to learn the jumps. you still have to be able to be precise with your jumps. and you still have to make the jumps.

[edit: two teeny typos ://]

akamon.2769:

Adamantium (snikt!)

This is wonderful

It definitely is pay to win.

There are certain stages in tribulation mode where you have to die 10 times just to progress, like the places with the tribulation clouds. In w2z3 there are 2 of these that I remember.
The worst case of the tribulation cloud is in w2z2 when you are trying to push the blocks into place, and you die at least 5 or more times trying to push the blocks, and lets not forget the checkpoint that spawns you on some spikes, causing you to die again if you fail a jump.

The death rate can be high in each zone on tribulation mode, that is if you aren’t really lucky.

So I would definitely say that it is pay to win.

It is a convenience valued equal to or greater than the $7.50 in gems to the person who buys it with their own money.

This is fact. The rest is opinion on something that is not your business, to be straight up. Their money. Their time. Their decision, not yours.

Shadow Blade.1324:

Adamantium.3682:

Shadow Blade.1324:

imho the problem is it removes the possibility of failure

What you’re saying is that it’s impossible, given the ICC, for any player to not be able to complete SAB TM. Really? It doesn’t give super powers for crying out loud, it just saves you some time.

you have infinite attempts from your last checkpoint, the only way to not eventually complete it is to choose to leave and not continue trying, or possibly have a client crash etc(which is a general problem the game has) however, you still have infinite attempts when you return, compared to someone who has lost progress and continue coins

Except there are some parts that I’ve seen people fail 50+ times with an Infinite Coin to the point they quit because they are so frustrated. When they leave halfway through they have to start from scratch when they come back in. If what you’re saying is true and that everyone will eventually complete it, then you’re saying that the jumps and timings are all so easy that anyone can do it given enough chances. That simply isn’t true. There are some areas that anyone with below average jumping/memory skills will never be able to complete it, even with an Infinite Coin.

I mean seriously, if it takes someone 500 lives to complete a checkpoint, would you honestly say at that point the ICC is P2W? I mean seriously, they’ve died hundreds of times and still haven’t completed it. If it’s P2W why haven’t they beaten it?

Answer: Because it is too hard for them, even with Infinite chances…

You want an easy solution to Trib mode? Have your checkpoint save after you leave. You got 6 checkpoints in but it took 3 hours and now you have to get to bed or have other obligations? No problem, when you come back you go to that checkpoint. As it is now you are punished if you can’t complete it in a reasonable timeframe.

I’m one of the few (I feel) who attempts to complete these from scratch and I can tell you that it has taken me so long that I ended up quitting halfway through. Wouldn’t I be done with it by now if it was P2W? (P2W by definition implies that by purchasing the item I will be able to win— it isn’t suppose to imply that by purchasing the item it will still take hours upon hours of work and effort to eventually maybe complete the content if I have enough time and patience, therefore it isn’t P2W…)

It may not be pay to win, but it’s “pay to keep playing”.

Once you run out of coins and lives, you have to leave and do other stuff or grind baubles to buy lives, or grind gold to buy the coin.

One should not have to grind or pay real money to play as much as others do. One should just play. Period.

Note that payments are not limited to cash.
As time is gold, spending time to get gold and then use that gold to get gems still counts as paying, as you are using your time to produce gold that will be exchanged for gems. And someone paid for those gems. Which means your time spent grinding is work for whoever is paying you with gems.
Is like with free to play games. You are not really playing for free. You are working for the game company by using your time to fill the world so those playing don’t see it all empty. If you are also having fun and not getting paid with cash doesn’t make it less of a job. A work is being done nonetheless.