Guild Wars 2

After completing all of World 2 I can definitely say that it is overtuned.

The 3 biggest problems imo are…

1. The enemies are way to powerful. Most of the time enemies seem to require you to dodge when the area you are in simply to tiny. You have stuff like assassins knocking you into instant kill dart traps and bananas taking 2 whole hearts of health from a freeze when you are on a tiny ice panel. I like the platform design itself, however, it simply feels cheap when you have to deal with these mobs that can essentially 1-shot you in addition to the jumps/traps.

2. There are too few checkpoints. For almost all checkpoints when you die you need to run a very long way back.

3. The level itself is too long. This isn’t to say there is too much content, rather, that there is too much in one sitting. I just spent 1.5 hours doing World 2-3, not because I had a huge desire to do so, but because I knew that if I stopped at any point I would be forced to repeat everything that I just did. You should make it so at the start of each zone there is a NPC who can teleport you to the checkpoints you have previously reached.

Also the 2nd form of the Storm Boss has a camera angle that makes it really hard to tell which platforms you can/can’t jump to. I’m sure there is some efficient strategy to kill him, however, after how long it takes to even reach him I can’t say I have the desire to fight him enough to learn it.

Regardless, I enjoy difficult jumping puzzles and did find World 2 fun overall, however, for normal mode this is simply too difficult.

Just my thoughts…
I LOVE the difficulty right now, it makes for a very rewarding experience… I imagine some folks just need to learn the mechanics of each level. It’s been a long time since I have been so motivated to play through a game like this.
I very much enjoy the length of each zone, 2-2 took the longest the first time 1.5 hours, but the second time through was about 30 min.

The only real issue I see is the geyser part of 2-1… This part seemed a bit buggy? Or at least the geysers were not working as it seemed they should. Once I learned the characteristics of how they are set up, it went much more smooth. Though the river current really got annoying watching as i would tumble then stop and tumble and stop… until i hit something or went over the edge.

Josh, you’re on a roll with all of these responses to us players. Thanks for taking the time to talk to everyone, it’s pretty clear how much you care about our experience with your content.

Just wanted to throw my feedback into the mix. I can definitely see where a lot of the complaints about difficulty are coming from, as my guildmates and I were joking about “if this is normal, what’s tribulation going to look like!?” as we were making our way through World 2. It’s definitely a massive difficulty spike coming from World 1. That being said, I’ve still been having a blast. Despite the complaints, I’m positive that the majority of the people complaining now will get much better over the next few days if they choose to soldier on, to the point where what was “too difficult” before will be relatively easy to get through. Those dart traps in zone 2 are a perfect example. After a few deaths, you start knowing where to look for them, to the point where I could get to the gong pretty quickly without incident.

My feeling is, I don’t necessarily think nerfing the difficulty of World 2 is absolutely needed, and that this isn’t the disaster that many impatient players are proclaiming. However, based on what you’ve said about your intention for Normal mode, it might be a good idea to tone down some of the more difficult areas. Especially if the difficulty is going to continue ramping up in worlds 3 and 4.

Overall, I’m really impressed with how well you’ve designed SAB. It’s difficult, but it’s fun, and the sense of accomplishment you were going for is certainly there. I’m planning on finishing World 2 this week, and I’m looking forward to having a horrible, horrible weekend trying to make it through Tribulation Mode!

Onshidesigns.1069:

Hard and Frustrating are two different things.

Yeah… I’ve been playing Giana Sisters: Twisted Dreams and that is some pretty brutal platforming… frustrating at times but feels hard for the right reasons. This SAB while stylistically nice, just frustrates me to the point where I don’t even want to play regular GW2 when I come out. I wish it didn’t. =(

Cliff.8679:

Josh, you’re on a roll with all of these responses to us players. Thanks for taking the time to talk to everyone, it’s pretty clear how much you care about our experience with your content.

that’s another thing I do appreciate regardless of whatever I think of SAB and JPs.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Well I would challenge anyone who thinks SAB W2 is harder than Zelda 1 to beat the last couple of dungeons! Zelda is WAY harder. Even so, I certainly don’t want to punish anyone for playing anything I make. Quite the opposite. I really, truly, honestly only want to make people have fun when they play my content. Some people have fun with brutal instant kill stuff like Tribulation Mode. But Normal Mode should not feel like that.

I dunno.. going through the spike traps following the gong. Pretty much.. not fun. I mean, the idea is cool. but in stead of going: “oh cool, the gong block the darts!” we were like.. “OMG, ANOTHER level to this spike trap building? man.. this is tedious.. 2 is enough.”

I feel like trying to go through & get all the secrets will be extremely annoying. In SAB W1 you could take your time & try to figure things out with your friends.. It was so fun to find the secrets because you figured them out, not because you were under the gun from either sliding all over, watching corners, getting shot from the other side of the building or something else “hard core”.

Too much twitchy jumping, not enough fun/relaxing exploration & secrets. That’s what I loved about SAB. figuring out the puzzles with my friends & finding all the bubbles/getting achievements. Not the super-hard micro jumping pad on rushing water with ice on it.

I think you have misinterpreted what made SAB fun. It’s not the hair ripping “OG hard-coreness” it was cute fun puzzles with occasional tough jumping at a pace you can enjoy.

Only had time to get as far as the water part in the first zone with the geysers. It was very frustrating mostly because if you fall into the water you’ll keep getting knocked around at random, often having to take up to three hits to get back onto a rock. The geysers also like to disappear just as you jump on them sometimes you get knocked down for no apparent reason even if they are up. The camera in that part didn’t help things either.

I even ended up dying on infantile mode due to the flowers at the end boss tossing you into the pit if you touch them from the wrong angle, which can happen easily as there’s only a small area to stand on.

Really disappointed with the new SAB as world 1 was so great, this just frustrates me like tribulation mode was supposed to. Feels like the game is telling me to buy the cash shop coin really, morose since restarting after a game over now only gives you one life rather than 5 as before.

I loved SAB 1, but SAB 2 really kitten ed me off. I can’t recall ever being so absolutely FURIOUS at a game before, and no, I don’t enjoy being furious at games, that’s not some passive/aggressive “cute” furious.

Not to minimize your complaints but here’s my take.

1. The zones are too long

You are complaining about too much content.

No. Having a lot of content is good. Having a lot of content between points at which you can leave without losing progress is bad. If you want to have huge levels, then instead have more levels, instead of sticking to the rigid 2-1, 2-2, 2-3 formula and just making each one ginormous, have up to 2-6. The “beta” 2-1 from the last run of the game was plenty long for a single stage, the whole back half of it should just be 2-2. That way, you can clear up to the rapids part, then LEAVE, and then come back later. I don’t always like doing the same single task for long periods of time, especially when world events are popping up on timers outside my control.

3. Crocodile hit boxes are too little

You need to use tactical stratagy to find the spots to hit the from, just like old platform games.

No, they are just insanely buggy. In the previous version, you could hit them with the whip well enough, in the current version they sometimes work, but mostly don’t. This should be an easy fix.

Anyways, I rage quit on the section of 2-1 soon after burning the trees, where you have to hop up a river with timed water spouts and jumping fish. This section was buggy as a whole sack full of kitten. Mother kittens. The turtles I needed to jump on often wouldn’t flip when whipped, the water spouts would often kick me loose even while up, and the mechanics of the rapids where a missed jump would launch you way back and so all sorts of jittery mess, it just was not fun.

It was just frustration built on frustration built on frustration, and go to the point where my character’s position on the screen seemed to bare no relationship to the things I was doing with the controls, he was like a pinball in a pinball machine sitting next to the one I was actually working, I felt I had little control over the outcomes.

Yes, old games were buggy, but this is not “quaint,” it’s just painful.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Fhaeris.9237:

@everyone: they made it this hard just to sell more infinite coins off the gem store. Don’t fall for this trap.

We made it so that it’s fun to play. It’s quite possible that we are just THAT much better at jumping than the average player, but I doubt it. I want it to be fun. If MOST people think it’s too hard to be fun then I’ll reduce the difficulty. But like I said above, we don’t have good numbers on that yet.

I think this update is great! It’s challenging, fun, and actually very funny. josh dont stop making this type of content! Clocktower and SAB were by far my fav content updates keep up the great work!

Ok, my first post was harsh, but an honest reaction to my feelings having ragequit 2-1. My second post will be nicer. I do not accuse you of any of the mean things others have accused in this thread, and I fully believe that you were making an experience you found fun. Part of my problem with it comes from not personally enjoying “ha, you failed, now do better next time” Battletoads gameplay, I prefer games that might be tricky, but that are perfectly doable on the first pass if you are clever and pay attention to your surroundings. Nothing should have to be “learn by failing.”

The other problem may be related to lag, and if so, you really need to figure out a way to test that, maybe test on the European servers or something, and if it isn’t working, fix it until it is. In a lot of places though, it seems like the jumps need to be a little closer together than they currently are, just extend all the launch and/or landing points to be a step or so closer together, and make it so that the “flippable” enemies are a lot easier to hit.

frostgibbon.3284:

Dan.8709:

Hahahahaha, the moment I saw you saying “trying to hit that gator” I knew which one it was, it took me two deaths before I decided to try. Just use the projectile weapon (forgot the name in english, sorry) just before jumping on the plank of wood. Done deal. =)

i i had to use the whip(in the picture), i regret not getting that slingshot

Ya I took one look at that one and wasnt sure I could reach him with my stick so I just took out a bomb and threw it at him.

@josh. So far I’ve only made it up to the wisdom glove in zone 2 before I ran out of time. Honestly I’ve enjoyed myself emencly dispite world 2 zones feeling a bit on the long side so far. I’ll try and look around for that eagle you’ve mentioned when I go back in next time. Oh and I had mixed emotions about that frogger flashback I got trying to get accross the river with all the logs and gaters. flat one I was excited about but when I came around the corner and saw the vertical one I was looking around to see if there was a bottle of lube upgrade hiden in a corner somewhere :P still got past it after a couple of coins and it was easier second time through.

There are a few places that could use a tad more polish imo. Piranha bend was chalenging but not impossible asside from that last set of jumps into the waterfall. The jump from the second to last to the last spout I keept geting knocked out of mid air to what I asume was that extra line of falling water despite jumping clear around it, I’m still not sure what I did differently to get past other than the possibility of luck.

I also think the in the open bobbles are a tad scarce in comparison to world 1. what are out there just barely outpaces those anoying owls that steal your stuff :P I’m sure theres plenty of lucritive dig spots that I havent found yet which will help a ton however the non hiden stuff felt a tad stingy when looking back to world 1.

Still haveing fun and hope I can find the time to compleat it before you get the chance to nerf the difficulty too much. but then agian I’m the type of person that can go in and beat cat mario even if it takes me to -180ish lives on my first time ever seeing it. Ya a few spots of SAB feel on par with the difficulty of a few spots in CM but it also does not have the outright trolling that ate up so many lives either.

Josh Foreman.8250:

CryxTryx.9208:

P.S Josh, it scares and saddens me a little when the content has not been out for 24 hours and you are already saying you might have made it more difficult then you intended.

Any time now people will be competing with youtube speed runs of this content. Hold on tight.

I had a gut feeling going in that it was. But since I wasn’t hearing it confirmed by QA or alphas I let it go. So the main reason I’m paying so much attention to this thread is because I suspected there was a problem to begin with. I really, really don’t want to alienate a ton of players by making them miserable and frustrated. We made a whole mode for people who like that sort of thing!

I’m hoping it takes you a few days to tweak/nerf it. Would love to have enough time to play through it before that, so far only done W2 Z1 of the new stuff. Was quite a bit harder than World 1.. Which is great! Like few old games, just as it should be.
The only thing that was a bit annoying was falling into the rapids, takes a bit too long to get out/die and respawn.

Thank you so much for SAB!

Personally I’m loving it as I did before. I think my only complaint for normal mode World 2 is that some of the runs between checkpoints are a bit long while learning the content, but now that I’ve made it through, I feel comfortable and confident that it will be much easier. The Dart room, once the mobs were out of the way and I determined where the darts are positioned I was able to fly through it.

I would guess if I had more Baubles to spend on upgrades it would have been easier still.

This exact happened the same way with World 1 when it was initially release.

Tribulation Mode is where the real hair pulling stress is, as intended. I cannot wait for more!

Traur.7680:

Tribulation Mode is where the real hair pulling stress is, as intended. I cannot wait for more!

Difficulty aside, it always makes me wonder why some gamers praise so much the feeling of rage, frustration and stress induced by games. By that logic, the ultimate nirvana should be when someone one day will decide to kill himself becouse of a game. I mean, the more rage and stress the better, right? Never understood this logic…

Josh, I have a few questions about this incarnation of the adventure box. The first question would be why was the reward system updated to reject alt play? You had talked about fixing the score system so it would discourage speed runs, but rewards people who would explore everything. Could you just RNG the dig spots so people would search in all areas instead of a select few? Or use the dungeon algorithm to incur diminishing returns on so many runs. Also because this account based rewards, then why was all of the upgrades you buy are not also account based? Though I can still see people farm enemies which is more tedious/repetitive then exploring to find every nook and cranny.

When it comes to upping the difficulty curve. Why were you even thinking about speed runs when the content is gated itself now per-day, and per-character? It’s like when first got praise for all those jumping puzzle you made and then you did the mad king’s clock tower. Which in my opinion was not bad per se (except for people amassed for one timed puzzle). You said it yourself during a guild cast that you pushed it a little too far. In some ways your repeating past mistakes. World 2 jumped to a difficulty spike to something like I imagined world 4 would be. Nevertheless I still enjoy the content you put out. It’s just you need to tone it down a bit more for the average player (at least normal mode).

One thing is for certain… the new levels are TOO LONG! Now I actually had fun with some of the obstacles in world 2 zone 1, but I was incredulous at how it kept going on and on and on and on… all for the same reward as world 1. Honestly I thought the preview that you put in last time was difficult and long enough to be its own level, and that is what I was expecting this time around. Boy was I wrong. That was probably less than a 5th of the whole thing. Additionally there are about 1/10 as many baubles as in world 1, which makes buying anything but lives and hearts impossible.

I can understand going to these lengths for the last world, but for world 2? Gimme a break.

Also hard mode is unfair fake difficulty like I Wanna Be the Guy with all the invisible crap that kills you. Fun for a laugh but requiring it for unique rewards is too much. I guarantee you everyone is just going to wait for a video walkthrough since there is no challenge other than memorization of cheeze. Having looked at world 1 tribulation mode, I can’t even fathom how impossible world 2 must be… I highly doubt anyone will be able to beat it without the infinite coin (which kinda kills the whole “tension” thing you seem to want so much… for those willing to pay for the scam).

Josh Foreman.8250:

We made it so that it’s fun to play. It’s quite possible that we are just THAT much better at jumping than the average player, but I doubt it. I want it to be fun. If MOST people think it’s too hard to be fun then I’ll reduce the difficulty. But like I said above, we don’t have good numbers on that yet.

I’m guessing that you’re just using the term “jumping” as an umbrella for the entire SAB experience here. As many posters in this thread have stated, the problems don’t necessarily revolve around “jumping,” it’s more about the larger problems with design and the engine. Being really good at jumping in and of itself won’t help you with most of the complaints players are bringing forward with SAB World 2.

Josh Foreman.8250:

fungihoujo.8476:

This feels like you’ve made every difficulty mode into tribulation mode for no reason.

There are reasons for everything. In this case I think I simply miscalculated the average jumping skill. I’m working on fixing it. Nothing nefarious here. Just a mistake I’m working on correcting.

My issue is not the jumping it’s the mob encounters. I don’t know why I’m not hitting the sword ninjas sometimes – I certainly look to be in range and it’s not red on the bottom (does this happen in SAB? It’s late and I can no longer remember). And if I get two of these on me I’m dead. If I get hit by one and knocked down, I literally smash the double tap to dodge key to try to just get away and I get hit and knocked down before the dodge can trigger. Then there’s the issue, at least for me, is that these mobs require a lot of mobility to handle, but the dojos’ arrow traps are almost close enough to where I don’t feel like I can dodge unless I’m already almost on the edge of an arrow trap. The combat doesn’t feel hard – it just feels frustrating. I don’t feel rewarded/accomplished when I get past a group of ninjas – I just wonder where the next set of em are to kill me.

If anyone has any advice on the ninjas I welcome it. Zone 2 was not fun for me. On SAB’s first release I was running all of W1 in less than 20 minutes. I don’t even want to go back to W2 zone 2. I know it’s the first day, but seriously if the jump in difficulty from W1 to W2 is any indication of W2 to W3, you might as well start handing out precursors for completing W3 when it comes around.

Josh Foreman.8250:

snip

My husband (Alifya) and myself (Toxarys) conquered Josh Foreman’s “House of Ninjas”

/high five

Picture of super awesome epic high 5 attached!

Also Josh, this is super challenging and you have sufficiently made me paranoid of poison filled dart walls. THANKS! =D

Nonono it’s not too hard, it’s challenging. It took me about 2 hours to finish rapids and pain Cliffs with 4 of my friends and we had so much fun finding secrets and puzzling our way through the levels. in our opinion (and im sure in many people’s opinions) it’s just like it should be. challenging and fun.

Awe.1096:

Traur.7680:

Tribulation Mode is where the real hair pulling stress is, as intended. I cannot wait for more!

Difficulty aside, it always makes me wonder why some gamers praise so much the feeling of rage, frustration and stress induced by games. By that logic, the ultimate nirvana should be when someone one day will decide to kill himself becouse of a game. I mean, the more rage and stress the better, right? Never understood this logic…

For me, it’s just a nice a change. Games were more difficult for me when I was younger (probably because I was younger more than just the games themselves), so it’s a bit of a switch up and reminder of a time when I had to set the controller down and come later. It really gets me looking at things I’m interacting with differently.

Also with this style, unlike say that of Dark Souls, it still feels very playful, like a prank, as I believe it was, Josh (apologies if I’m wrong), described it in another thread.

@Josh Foreman:
I would like to thank you for all the content you and your team introduced with the SAB World 2! The world design is great, the creatures are too, the traps are nasty… To sum things up: I like it!

I can confirm, that it can take some time to finish a Zone of World 2 (didn’t find the eagle yet) and some parts are quite hard when going through World 2 the first time (rapids…)

I didn’t try World 2 Zone 3 by now – it was late at night when I finished Zone 2 and I had to get up early today…

However, World 2 (at least what I saw from it) isn’t too hard, please don’t tone it down…!

It’s a welcome challange and I had lots of fun in there with my guild party. That’s also what I would like to recommend all of those talking about frustration: go in there with friends!

You can of course solo the content, and I will for sure do that too later on, but for the first time figuring out the paths, tricks, traps etc. it’s much more fun going in there in a group – especially when in TS. It’s fun watching your friends fail, laughing at them, and shortly after also failing in a different spot for the same reason yourself and getting laughed at (first dart trap vs. second one)…

Also the rage (still laughing while raging) of a party member following you over some clouds and jumping into thin air because one of them was a vanishing cloud you stepped on just a second ago – priceless.

I think some are taking things too seriously in there. I died lots of times yesterday, especially in the “gong room”. Who cares? There are btw. tricks helping you in the gong room when you are in there with a party so there is no need for everyone to succeed in the “gong run”… (Thanks for also thinking about that and adding this possibility – don’t want to go into detail due to spoilers, but I guess Josh knows what I mean…)

Even dying isn’t that big a problem in a group – it can even take you to the next check point as soon as one of your party members succeeded reaching it. I guess everyone has his/her talents regarding the SAB’s content. Some are better at jumping, some are better at discovering paths, solving puzzles, detecting traps, etc. In a group you can use those talents depending on situation and let the one who’s better at something, do exactly this task – maybe you even learn something by watching so you can solo the SAB later on.

I only see one problem that bothers me in the SAB:
The loot timer at the boss chests. Of course, when in a team you have to take care that everyone reaches the boss before you beat him, that’s what team play is about.
But there is always still a slight chance, that exactly at the moment when you beat the boss one of the party members gets knocked off by the last laser beam the boss sometimes fires before vanishing. In case of World 2 this results in members not being able to loot the chest. This happened to our group in both Zone 1 and 2 and was very frustrating for those members after completing the zones in hours of work/fun.

Would it be possible to increase the timer for looting the chest, at least in Zones where it takes longer to reach the chest again after dying?

There’s a difference in difficulty and punishment.
Dark Souls or XCOM are games I consider great and difficult games.
Because they telegraph everything properly allowing the player to sit back and study the enemy and hazard behavior.

Tribulation mode? It’s exactly the opposite.
Most of the time you’re exposed to invisible hazards, hazards you need to be exposed to before you are even aware of their existence. Also, most of the time objects you thought aren’t hazardous to the player, in fact is. It’s like removing the visual differentiation between 1up mushrooms and poison mushrooms.

If anything, Arena Net should be ashamed of themselves for stooping this low.
As it goes against everything in the book of good game design.
Then again, it’s in their nature to make the poorest decisions possible.

I have not yet tried it. However, I’m in one of the largest guilds on my server, and I’ve yet to hear anyone say they felt it was challenging in a positive way. A good few of my guildies who tried it ragequit in zone 1. One group did manage to beat world two, but it took them literally 10 hours nonstop to do so.

So yes, I think it could stand to see some rebalancing, going off of what I know.

Josh Foreman.8250:

I don’t think I’m of that mindset. My only goal was to make a World 2 that felt appropriately more challenging than World 1. Like Sonic or Mario’s World 2. When I said I wanted it to have a longer learning curve I meant in terms of exploration and discovery. One of the reasons the levels are as long as they are.

I see; thank you for clarifying!

Hm. That makes me sad panda because of how hard I worked to make sure I was introducing the elements in gradual stages.

First rapid you see is off to the side. Second can be crossed by a bridge. NPC gives you hint about rapids. THEN you actually have to navigate rapids.

First piranha pool kills you if you jump in it. Next ones have the piranha jumping out. THEN you have to clobber the ones that land on the ground.

First dart trap is on a very simple piece of architecture, very close to a check point. Second one also close to a check point in a slightly more complex area, etc.

First push block goes from A to B allows you access to higher area. Next one lets you jump over darts. Next ones are a dependency puzzle to block darts.

Etc.

I did become more aware of what could kill me as I progressed through the levels, so I believe you did that much right, at least! What I meant was more tied to the last point you quoted:

neon.4863:

I know you probably meant it for it to be fun, and I appreciate the effort, but perhaps some of these mechanics are best saved for world 4 (or the end of world 3).

So too much stuff. That’s interesting. I’ll ponder.

That there were just too many new and very punishing mechanics introduced per level, so while there was progression for them within the level, there wasn’t overall progression like you could see in, say, turtles and crocodiles in world 1 zone 3 and turtles and crocodiles in world 2 zone 1. Or the acid introduced in zone 2 being more prominent in zone 3. That was done perfectly, I think – you have one level that is less punishing when you’re getting the hang of the mechanic, and then another where if you fail to hit them correctly you get punished more.

I think a good, simple example of this leap in mechanics is the world 2 zone 1 boss – it’s the same head as the other worlds, so you expect the same behavior, but then it turns around and does a circle laser, and you’re surprised by the new mechanic – but you can’t even get back up and go back to smacking at him, since he knocks you into certain death, and then you need to do the tricky flower leap to get back to where you were. I personally feel like a more natural progression would’ve been to introduce his new attacks first, then make those attacks kill you if you failed to dodge them on the next level.

Mostly I think the problem is the number of ways in which you can die rather than lose some health for failure. I think you mentioned the bauble reduction not being your area, but it unfortunately did affect what you made a lot – you need a lot more baubles and coins to make up for all the times you die while learning the new level, yet it’s a lot more difficult to get them now. I went through World 1 Zone 2 hoping for baubles for a slingshot on an alt to get past the rapids, only to find every dig spot I knew but one missing, and the one that wasn’t missing had a green bauble instead of a red one. I had to go back to bank and grab the 400 baubles I’d saved from last time for the torch – if I’d been alone I’d have lost my progress on that level. That sort of thing.

I actually think you did an overall good job, but it feels like there’s no middle ground between world 1 and 2. If world 2 was actually world 3 and lives weren’t so costly now, you’d have no complaints from me, except for that room with the frogs and the darts; that checkpoint really needs to be moved outside (or the darts removed where they currently face the checkpoint). The way it is, unless you killed all the frogs, you respawn right in the face of death, which is just not very checkpoint-y.

Josh Foreman.8250:

neon.4863:

The mindset that something seemed to be fairly easy for some players and so it needs to be made more difficult will only eventually lead to content that’s so difficult that only a tiny fraction of players will be able to complete it. But complete it they will, and some of them in a day.

I don’t think I’m of that mindset. My only goal was to make a World 2 that felt appropriately more challenging than World 1. Like Sonic or Mario’s World 2. When I said I wanted it to have a longer learning curve I meant in terms of exploration and discovery. One of the reasons the levels are as long as they are.

neon.4863:

Basically it’s a ton of elements, and they’re all pretty much thrown at you simultaneously, rather than introduced slowly with each level.

Hm. That makes me sad panda because of how hard I worked to make sure I was introducing the elements in gradual stages.

First rapid you see is off to the side. Second can be crossed by a bridge. NPC gives you hint about rapids. THEN you actually have to navigate rapids.

First piranha pool kills you if you jump in it. Next ones have the piranha jumping out. THEN you have to clobber the ones that land on the ground.

First dart trap is on a very simple piece of architecture, very close to a check point. Second one also close to a check point in a slightly more complex area, etc.

First push block goes from A to B allows you access to higher area. Next one lets you jump over darts. Next ones are a dependency puzzle to block darts.

Etc.

neon.4863:

I know you probably meant it for it to be fun, and I appreciate the effort, but perhaps some of these mechanics are best saved for world 4 (or the end of world 3).

So too much stuff. That’s interesting. I’ll ponder.

I think part of the issue with teaching people though, is that you’re teaching them by instantly killing them. The piranha pools, for example, are standing water pools with a mob in them. Nothing before that point made me think that standing water would kill me, so I walked into the pool to try to swing at the mob and instantly died, wasting a life. Now I know that the pools kill me, sure, but if I hadn’t walked in with 10 lives from the continue coin, I’d be a little more upset about having lost that life while doing something I previously thought was okay.

Everything else aside, I know I’ve made a few comments in here so far, and I’d like to say that I really do enjoy the idea of the Super Adventure Box. I loved World 1 when it came out, and I was completely excited for World 2, I just think there’s some things that can be addressed that feel unfair for a normal mode run. It’s good to know that you’re listening and working to make things right though, so keep up the good work.

I think it’s fine the way it is.

Now Liadri, however, that was stupid.

Smoothy.1085:

Nonono it’s not too hard, it’s challenging. It took me about 2 hours to finish rapids and pain Cliffs with 4 of my friends and we had so much fun finding secrets and puzzling our way through the levels. in our opinion (and im sure in many people’s opinions) it’s just like it should be. challenging and fun.

lol those two things don’t go together

neon.4863:

…
I actually think you did an overall good job, but it feels like there’s no middle ground between world 1 and 2. If world 2 was actually world 3 and lives weren’t so costly now, you’d have no complaints from me, except for that room with the frogs and the darts; that checkpoint really needs to be moved outside (or the darts removed where they currently face the checkpoint). The way it is, unless you killed all the frogs, you respawn right in the face of death, which is just not very checkpoint-y.

Regarding the frog/dart room mentioned by you, there is a simple solution:
Throw bombs into the room (from behind the entrance so you don't pull their aggro) until all the frogs are dead... Seams cheap, but that's what you can buy ranged weapons for I guess. And the darts don't face the check point. There is a totally save way to the check point...

I’d like to stress I really love SAB, too. I was also very excited for the update. I did SAB to exhaustion during its original release and I still think it’s the best update this year. I really appreciate that you’re taking the time to communicate with us, and I know how it feels when it seems like everyone hates what you worked a lot on (especially since negative comments usually feel like they have more weight than the positive ones).

You’re an especially good developer/designer for putting yourself out there for people to talk to. Thank you. I mean it.

Edit @Rayti: Not doable if you’ve already reached the checkpoint, which was my problem – I was with 4 people, and we couldn’t all stand on the checkpoint because we’d respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn, die. There are darts facing the checkpoint – if you respawn and linger you get sucked into them.

Josh Foreman.8250:

If I cared about cash grabs I’d be working at Zynga where they design based on MTX. We don’t do that here. I’m trying to make SAB (And I mean SAB, not the GW2 rewards, achievements, titles, MTX, etc) a good, solid, fun game. That’s my focus.

Woah I don’t know where to start. 1. You don’t do that here? Infinite coin anyone? 2. Here’s a free idea for you. I’m sure there’s a group of playes that enjoy Zynga games so why not bring them in GW2 too? Let players in WvW after taking a keep open a restaurant in it and customize their menu and stuff. That would be like, so innovative and rule-breaking!

Josh Foreman.8250:

Cliff.8679:

My feeling is, I don’t necessarily think nerfing the difficulty of World 2 is absolutely needed, and that this isn’t the disaster that many impatient players are proclaiming. However, based on what you’ve said about your intention for Normal mode, it might be a good idea to tone down some of the more difficult areas. Especially if the difficulty is going to continue ramping up in worlds 3 and 4.

Overall, I’m really impressed with how well you’ve designed SAB. It’s difficult, but it’s fun, and the sense of accomplishment you were going for is certainly there. I’m planning on finishing World 2 this week, and I’m looking forward to having a horrible, horrible weekend trying to make it through Tribulation Mode!

Thanks Cliff. Good feedback. It’s very helpful to have people who enjoy it, beat it, replay it, and STILL confirm that the difficulty still spikes.

Well I beat Liadri and got 8 orbs and I’m telling you it was too hard and you need to nerf it.

This treads a fine line between skill and raging frustration im gonna skip this 2 weeks n look forward to 17th update . Although im raging i spent all my cash levelling crafting to find out the Ascended weapons cant be sold i fail hard !!!!

neon.4863:

Edit @Rayti: Not doable if you’ve already reached the checkpoint, which was my problem – I was with 4 people, and we couldn’t all stand on the checkpoint because we’d respawn, die, respawn, die, respawn, die. There are darts facing the checkpoint – if you respawn and linger you get sucked into them.

Ah ok, now I understand what you mean. That didn’t happen to my group because we cleared the room. At least I guess that’s the reason.

I don’t think it’s too hard at all. Sadly that seems to be the minority vote in this thread :/

Honestly I think a majority of the perceived “too difficult” only stems from that the levels are so much longer than before, so getting knocked into the void by the first ambushing ninja out of 10 can seem rather daunting.

My only real complaint is the 400 bauble ‘buy a torch’ kittenblock at the beginning of W2Z3. The ability to farm bubbles was removed for daily, and you have the flute which is purchasable at the beginning of the level (which if you think back to W1Z3, the torch was purchasable, but you could get it free in W1Z2) which if you buy it, means you can’t complete the level? I certainly haven’t found 400 bubbles between the start of the zone and the ice wall. Who knows, there might be a goldmine to dig up? I’m certainly not digging for a single bubble 400 times at a 15% chance is all I’m saying.

I haven’t found a place that has the torch for free, but if you get partway in the level and told to just give up without paying 400 bubbles, it’s kinda rude.

Josh Foreman.8250:

DarksunG.9537:

I think you have misinterpreted what made SAB fun. It’s not the hair ripping “OG hard-coreness” it was cute fun puzzles with occasional tough jumping at a pace you can enjoy.

Well I don’t expect anyone to read this whole thread at this point so I won’t fault you for not having read the 20 times I’ve said I didn’t intend Normal Mode to be as hard as it appears to be to average players.

As to the pacing issue. What made you feel rushed? Is it the length of the levels? Or do you just mean specific timed puzzles like the rolling gong?

I agree, I didn’t read the whole thread…

But I’ll answer this question.

Length of the levels.

I liked the setup of the first world. First level: short, second longer, third longest. I didn’t finish the second level yesterday (was falling asleep at the keyboard, which isn’t a good idea if you have to get up at 6 again to go to work!), but if the same setup is used in world 2 as in world 1, I doubt I’ll ever find the time to find the third level in world 2…

And because of the accountboundness of digging sites, I’ll have to redo the first two levels of the first world even more to get a shot at all the skins available. I want to finish my collection of Super skins…

I haven’t tried W2 yet but I have to say, if this was permanent content I could care less how hard it is.

But… seriously, this needs to just be made permanent content… WHY is it temporary? What’s the point? Especially if you’re selling an infinite coin that’s useless once the content goes “poof”.

Shouldn’t you be just as upset as us players that all the hard work you put into this content just disappears?

I really hope you advocate to keep it permanent, even if we have to buy the stupid box thing in the store to access it.

Josh Foreman.8250:

DarksunG.9537:

I think you have misinterpreted what made SAB fun. It’s not the hair ripping “OG hard-coreness” it was cute fun puzzles with occasional tough jumping at a pace you can enjoy.

Well I don’t expect anyone to read this whole thread at this point so I won’t fault you for not having read the 20 times I’ve said I didn’t intend Normal Mode to be as hard as it appears to be to average players.

As to the pacing issue. What made you feel rushed? Is it the length of the levels? Or do you just mean specific timed puzzles like the rolling gong?

Well since checkpoints don’t save your place, I’m guessing it’s because people just aren’t able to put down 5 hours to progress through a long level which won’t save their progress, thus feel rushed.

I think all the complaining in here showcases a larger portion of community GW2 may have: casual players. I have nothing against that, and GW2 as a whole have always been more appealing to casuals due to its “easy to pick up” content, and now suddenly this crowd faces content that require a noticable level of preperation/progression. One can see this in the thread how certain players try to define what fun is for them and how it should be.
While there are some points in here, it may also for some be easier to jump to the forums and complain.

Hey Josh,

As background, I find almost all GW2 content to be too easy (e.g. world bosses, dungeon bosses, fractal bosses, etc.) when it’s not designed in a frustrating way (i.e. chain knockdowns, chain dazes/stuns, etc.), so I do appreciate difficult content. There’s no point in beating something if it’s not challenging, and I think you would agree.

That said, I have several observations from my brief play-through of World 2 (up until the frozen waterfall):

- For the most part, I felt the overall world design was quite entertaining. If I wasn’t actually trying to beat it (or to complete achievements), I’d have a lot of fun just fooling around in it.

- I was a bit disappointed about the roadblock that was the frozen waterfall. I’m sure once I acquire the upgraded candle/torch, it will cease to be an issue, but it was an abrupt end to our night. Some of us had just spent what little we had remaining (after continues, lives, etc.) on other things (like the flute) so we didn’t have enough to continue on.

- For how difficult World 2 was, I think you guys erred on the side of it being too long (or too difficult considering the length). While more content is usually a good thing, it’s not always a good thing, especially when there are so many unforgiving obstacles. I remember when I’d leave on my NES overnight so I wouldn’t lose progress, but GW2 is a different animal. You can get kicked for inactivity, you can randomly disconnect (either your fault, your ISP’s, or the server’s), or you might get random latency spikes that cause you to fail at the unforgiving obstacles. You have to factor all that into the length of your content.

- The number of guaranteed death obstacles is more pronounced due to the change in number of lives should you re-enter the game.

- A lot of the places where we died were clearly due to unfamiliarity, and that’s not something you should touch. As we get more familiar, they will become conquered obstacles, which is a good thing. The exception to this are mechanics like the bouncy platforms in World 1 and the spinners in World 2. At least with the bouncy platforms, failing usually meant having to repeat the last few steps, but with the spinners, it’s instant death. While you might suggest improving our jump accuracy, I’m not sure that’s a realistic request. There are too many places for it to go wrong, from our keyboards being wonky, to our connections, and finally to the game itself (for whatever reason). It’s simply too sensitive a jump, and sometimes even when it looks like I landed dead on and facing the right way, I get spun weakly into the abyss. Give us more control over it, so that if we die, it’s because we missed the jump or didn’t aim properly, and not because of who knows why.

- While I did eventually learn to notice the dart traps, it’s the dart animation itself which is hard to notice. I made the same mistake several times because I didn’t notice there were even any darts flying. I’m not sure if this might be because I turned my graphics down for Liadri or what, but it’s a consideration for you to think about.

- Lastly, I don’t know what your future plans are for SAB and its achievements, so this may be salient or it may be moot. Any reference to difficult games of the past is irrelevant if there are any time-limited achievements/rewards. If the World 2 achievements (and the Tribulation Mode achievements) remain accessible whenever SAB decides to revisit, then bring on the difficulty! Maybe I won’t complete it this time, or even next time, but as long as I can keep working at it, then high difficulty is a great thing. However, if there are rewards that become inaccessible after a certain time, then SAB cannot be compared to other difficult games we can play at our own pace. I know the World 1 achievements are back, but who knows what the policy might be the next time around. You’ll have to forgive my cynicism here because a lot of players were screwed out of the Crab Toss achievements for no fault of their own (achievements were bugged for ~10 days, with sporadic periods where they worked again), and while they were told they could complete them at a later time, the current Crab Toss achievements are only the same in name but not reward (and not even the same in AP). Any player frustration while playing SAB content would only be compounded by limited time rewards.

Just my two cents.

Josh Foreman.8250:

Well I don’t expect anyone to read this whole thread at this point

I haven’t read this whole thread, but I’ve read every post you’ve made in it as well as all your posts for the last week or so! I have to say, I would refresh the dev tracker page today after a couple hours of not checking and almost be overwhelmed with all your posts you’d made since I last checked. You’re awesome!

Also SAB is awesome! Haven’t done W2 yet because I jumped straight into W1Z1 tribulation mode with a few friends. It was the most laughing/screaming I’ve ever done in GW2 — even more so than last time SAB came out. Thanks for the fun times! Can’t wait to do the rest of it!

Moss.5371:

Josh Foreman.8250:

If I cared about cash grabs I’d be working at Zynga where they design based on MTX. We don’t do that here. I’m trying to make SAB (And I mean SAB, not the GW2 rewards, achievements, titles, MTX, etc) a good, solid, fun game. That’s my focus.

Woah I don’t know where to start. 1. You don’t do that here? Infinite coin anyone? 2. Here’s a free idea for you. I’m sure there’s a group of playes that enjoy Zynga games so why not bring them in GW2 too? Let players in WvW after taking a keep open a restaurant in it and customize their menu and stuff. That would be like, so innovative and rule-breaking!

You’re really calling the infinite coin a “cash grab”? It’s a minor convenience feature for people who either want to support the game and Josh’s wonderful creation, or simply feel they need access to that many lives. You can still get plenty of normal coins with very minimal effort, if you don’t want to pay for the infinite one. It takes something like twelve minutes to speed-run World One, and that nets you enough baubles for at least 150 lives. If they were only out for money, they wouldn’t make free lives that accessible.

@Josh Foreman

Firstly, thanks for SAB and all the work into it! My friends and I were really excited when it was announced that it was coming back and the lobby is amazing. That said, even as older gamers, this is a bit too difficult but not in the manner most people are making it out to be. The problem lies in some really cheese mechanics that make you spend your life in order to even learn about them. That’s not even a steep learning curve, that’s throwing people off of cliffs (and there were many) for touching fire. Here is our (my friends and mine) list of things we hope can be improved for this new world.

- Rapids area is fine for a great majority of it (I did it with only a sword and candle :p ) The only problems were the flowers are too sudden with no warning what they do. There’s no game play instructions that make it virtually safe for people to take a turn on a flower and find out what it does. You just end up on it and FOOSH there you go down into a crocodile (or off a waterfall) loosing your life. That’s a punishment and not fun or teaching. I realize it’s too late to probably change that as it would probably require level redesign but consider it when you pull it before bringing it back. As well as for any future mechanic uses. Other than that it was fun!

- The assassins area took us a very, very long time. The poison darts (while it made us very paranoid) shouldn’t either initially 1-hit KO you or all of them should just do 3 hearts worth of damage (I personally prefer the 3 heart damage). The wood juts were kind of hard to see as they blended in too well. Consider just swapping the colors so that you can see them instead of thinking it’s decoration. We didn’t know what was killing us at the 1st gate. It wasn’t until the assassin room that we saw darts flying and it wasn’t until the dart puzzle room that we saw the wood juts.

- The fish pools need to stop instantly killing you. In the 2nd feed the octo fish room, we kept dying in the fish room because the piranhas would knock us into them when we were standing near the threshold of the door. Either the knock back needs to be removed or the depths of those kiddie pools needs to be rechecked. We lost most of our lives there because of circumstances beyond our control.

- In general, there is a lot of unclear directions as to where you are supposed to go. The rapids did fine. The assassins area we got lost in some of the mountains, the snow mountain we gave up because it was late and we had no idea where to go. We got to the waterfall and we’re unsure if it’s the right path or a secret room. We didn’t but a torch because no one had 400 baubles and we were just tired. Just a bit more clarity in design, I don’t mean linear but just easier to tell if we’re going the right way. We ended up in so many dead ends thinking it was the right path.

- In general again, the boss timer needs to be greatly extended and/or a rainbow bridge needs to appear to the chest area. We had two members get knocked down at the last second and didn’t make it over to the reward in time. For the 2nd level we stopped the gate as one person struggled with lag/ice to make sure everyone was there, but we were all scared that we’d get knocked off or die and not make it. That’s really not the feeling you want to inspire into your players is it. Make them fear that they are not going to get their reward after all their hard work?

I can’t say anything much about level 3 because we stopped midway. It has been a lot of fun though. We laughed a lot and all caved in to buy the infinite coin as there was no way for us to make it after our 20+ lives. The curve is much steeper than it needs to be but can be fixed with a few changes. Overall nothing really needs to change but what I mentioned above. We’re happy that it’s back, but we’re not looking forward to running it again for achievements or baubles even though we want skins. I hope this helps you make world 2 better.

Josh, you did make a couple comments about slowly introducing some new mechanics throughout the levels. While I think that works fine in the case of the rapids (though the rapids themselves are buggy), this doesn’t work very well for things like the deathly piranhas and poison darts. Namely, there’s just not much warning about these things and what they will do till you die to one. If the first time I walked into poison darts it just took away a heart, that would serve the purpose of telling me those things are dangerous. When the darts one shot me, I’m quickly sent back to the checkpoint wondering what happened. Perhaps the lesson is taught, but it’s like teaching the lesson while rapping my knuckles with a rule. It’s just not enjoyable.

Grimno.6172:

Doesn’t help that I play Charr so my point of standing is GOD KNOWS WHAT!

Why does ArenaNet discourage… Charr?!

Your answer is the Infinite Watchknight Tonic Hm… although it probably doesn’t work in SAB.