Guild Wars 2

Greetings!

I’ve had a blast with SAB thus far with its adorable art design, but what I find disappointing is the game’s inherent flaw in it’s jumping mechanics.

This game, from the start, had really some shoddy feel when it comes to the Jumping Puzzles. What with bigger characters being too bulky to even have a sense of “am I stepping on this pixel of thing right? Nope, I just fell”, to the clipping of feet on the edges when you’re in battle stance, to the bad visual feedback of what can be stood on or not (invisible platforms when standing on a slither of platform), to the imprecise jumping.

I suggest that the developers find a way to improve on the overall feel for the jumping and its puzzles, and then implement more of them.

I’d like to re-iterate that I’ve had a lot of fun with SAB! But the game’s not Super Meatboy-like controls put me off in ever finishing more of them.

What are your thoughts on this?

Actually, the only problem I found with it was the lack of polish code (not to be confused with polished code, although similar).

Things to note are:

• Enemies will occasionally strike players in melee after their ranged attacks have been thrown, no animation shown. It seems like remnants of code that are copying Mario where players will get hurt by touching enemies, however it occurs when near an enemy, not when touching an enemy.
• Mushroom jumping lacks finesse. Player position is ignored when touching a mushroom for a jump. It auto-centers your player AFTER the jump has been initiated. This means players can jump a longer distance by moving forward to the edge of a mushroom, then get jumped instead of falling off. It also will screw up normal, unabusive jumps.
• Frog boss jump attacks don’t coordinate. The damage and animation are off. If you jump over the animation, you’ll still get hit, but if you jump as it starts, it acts as if you rolled. If you roll, however, you still get hit (for the most part).
• Poison water tends to tick every full second (instead of using delta time) meaning that players can get damaged immediately upon entering water as opposed to being in water for one full second.

I agree with TC and Esplen. The aesthetics are amazing, but the engine and physical mechanics work against experience. It’s literally in beta, so it’s likely that some of the already obvious issues will be addressed, but I’ll go ahead and state my gripes as well.

• The game physics makes jumping too awkard and floaty. This is especially noticeable when trying to jump on small platforms or hugging ledges. It doesn’t feel right, especially for the ledge hugging jumps in stage 4, where you have to mash directional keys in order to make the jump.

• The game uses the standard knockdown animation to simulate water physics and getting hit. The animation, in my opinion, is a bit too exaggerated and it just plain doesn’t feel right for a platformer. A flinch animation would suffice for taking enemy damage. For the stage 4 rapids, teleporting players back to the beginning of the puzzle (not the entire stage) if they fall into the water would suffice as punishment. The random and constant knockbacks are tedious and they take away control from the player for too long.

• No jumping to dodge. It’s a platformer, so positioning and movement should play some role in dodging attacks and obstacles. This is a learned bias but it’s one that’s been ingrained in players for so many games that it just doesn’t feel right to not jump and dodge obvious attacks.

• Attacks have a tell but little rhythm. This is a problem with GW2 in general, and it makes dealing with multiple enemies more tricky than it should be. In many platformers, obstacles are telegraphed in a safe environment so that players can learn the tell and rhythm and therefore deal with them in more dangerous situations. In SAB all enemies simply attack the player after they see them, and moreover they attack in whichever direction the player is. Sometimes they don’t attack at all (I’m assuming this is a glitch). It’s not necessary that all enemies follow set patterns but if none of them do, then there’s really very little pattern to follow.

• Camera issues. Same deal with overworld jumping puzzles. They make certain jumps harder than they should be, and it’s incredibly frustrating for larger characters.

• There’s no noticeable pattern to the player’s attacks. Very little timing is required to attack enemies as a result.

@TwoBit, I agree with the Rabids part. It’s like you’re praying to the AlmightyMotoGod that you hit a wall AND are able to jump before getting knocked down again.

Also, if you go through the Shortcut **** (Starred for psuedo spoiler), you tend to fly with the knocked down animation, which is really awkward.

EDIT: More stuffs…

I did a run on each of my characters (other than my main) for the first time. The first few were slow, but they got faster and faster. Now, even on my main (who has everything unlocked) I still only use the Stab/Jab/Poke combo only. I don’t carry potions, I don’t use any other skill, I don’t need to, or really want to. (I will bomb for secret rooms when playing with friends.)

Enabling Auto-Attack definitely helps playing with Pointy Stick-only. In case you’re wondering how to do it, simply hold Ctrl as you right click on the skill. Now, when you’re in combat, you’ll automatically attack, just like in PvE!

Note: You may have to re-enable it at times. The transfer from 1-2 —> 1-3 causes it to forget. Also, rejoining does the same thing. Death does not forget the auto-attack.

Also, the Moto’s Breath is underwhelming. Long cast time (leaves you vulnerable for a LONG time) for a knockback with no damage that has a really weird hitbox (isn’t very… well… obvious as to where it hits). I might as well just Stab + Jab for a kill.

I said this before but probably not as well as I should have. IMO, attacking is OP in that you can spam it with full impunity. The player isn’t locked into animations when they attack, so there’s no leveraging of movement and position. It takes quite a bit of the challenge out of enemy encounters.

Edit: Grammar. Should not be typing while half asleep. :P

I concur, during the cage fights it’s less of a battle and more of a “hold down both mouse buttons and rotate camera. spam spacebar if in swamp”. The enemies also can’t react fast enough, to the point where dodging actually puts you in the way of some projectiles.

Just gonna throw this out there: could the lack of finesse be intentional, mimicking the games of old? And if it is, is it acceptable to do this in a throw-back homage game placed inside a polished game?

Seras.5702:

Just gonna throw this out there: could the lack of finesse be intentional, mimicking the games of old? And if it is, is it acceptable to do this in a throw-back homage game placed inside a polished game?

I don’t think so. There’s a difference between intentionally unpolished and unpolished.

It’s kind of like the idea of: “It takes someone with great skill to portray lack of skill.”
Getting someone who sings badly to sing well.
versus
Getting someone who can sing well to sing badly.
Theoretically, the outcome should be the same, but it’s not.

Seras.5702:

Just gonna throw this out there: could the lack of finesse be intentional, mimicking the games of old? And if it is, is it acceptable to do this in a throw-back homage game placed inside a polished game?

I would argue against the premise that the games of old lacked finesse. Their mechanics were of course simple, but because they were simple the developers could more easily calculate timing and telegraphing of obstacles. Some of the more memorable games were all about finesse.

Not trying to undermine your feedback or putting words into Josh’s mouth, but I get the impression that JPs are an exhibition of level design over mechanics. The act of jumping in GW2 is pretty basic and is likely limited by a bunch of other factors (animations, fighting mechanics, etc etc) and JPs are really showcasing how platforming sections can be built up around this very simple ability using the level design alone rather than attempting to play with the act of jumping in itself. If anything, I’m amazed how much fun I have with the SAB considering that it doesn’t involve any of the fancy stuff I’ve come to expect from platforming games over the past decade or so – it’s really an example of how working with constraints can encourage creativity. In addition, I’m not sure how much freedom Josh and his team had over the mechanics in place – there’s clearly been some work on the level design, art and animation fronts, but less evidence in the physics of the SAB, where the team would need to be larger and cover more roles.

So while I agree with you all that the mechanics of the thing are a bit restricted and occasionally pretty off, I’m not sure that playing with these was the intention of the SAB. However, the SAB could well be a nice, self-contained method of experimenting with new jumping mechanics and physics without them spilling over into the main game if the Devs felt like it.

Seras.5702:

Just gonna throw this out there: could the lack of finesse be intentional, mimicking the games of old? And if it is, is it acceptable to do this in a throw-back homage game placed inside a polished game?

I was pointing out the flaw of the jumping feel of the game across the board, not just SAB. If you’ve done other Jumping Puzzles with a norn or a charr character, you will understand where I’m coming from.

proxy.7963:

Not trying to undermine your feedback or putting words into Josh’s mouth, but I get the impression that JPs are an exhibition of level design over mechanics. The act of jumping in GW2 is pretty basic and is likely limited by a bunch of other factors (animations, fighting mechanics, etc etc) and JPs are really showcasing how platforming sections can be built up around this very simple ability using the level design alone rather than attempting to play with the act of jumping in itself. If anything, I’m amazed how much fun I have with the SAB considering that it doesn’t involve any of the fancy stuff I’ve come to expect from platforming games over the past decade or so - it’s really an example of how working with constraints can encourage creativity. In addition, I’m not sure how much freedom Josh and his team had over the mechanics in place - there’s clearly been some work on the level design, art and animation fronts, but less evidence in the physics of the SAB, where the team would need to be larger and cover more roles.

So while I agree with you all that the mechanics of the thing are a bit restricted and occasionally pretty off, I’m not sure that playing with these was the intention of the SAB. However, the SAB could well be a nice, self-contained method of experimenting with new jumping mechanics and physics without them spilling over into the main game if the Devs felt like it.

If that is the case, then it’s done quite a good job at showcasing the players of their designing capabilities. I do like some of the Jumping Puzzles’ design. I really do. But wouldn’t it be better if the mechanics were up to par with it? It would make for a holistic experience, I would think.

But yes, the isolation of mechanics and physics of instances from the main world would be an interesting approach to GW2. I think that would really freshen things up for the developers and players alike. Imagine each Fractals having their own physics and jump feels. That’s sort of cool.

Edit: Added second paragraph.