Guild Wars 2

Alright, maybe I’ll look like one of the few ‘whining’ about this. You can also choose to throw some insult at me. Though, I’m really just trying to have a debate about a possible issue; whether or not the Southsun Stalwart title has much less honor than it could’ve had.

Why? Because of how a lot of people used a mesmer portal to get to the islet.

I did the jumping puzzle; I know a lot of other people did it too. We can of course take pride in that and have that ‘yes, I did it!’ feeling.. but we can’t really use the Southsun Stalwart title to show it. Now, people, don’t say something ridiculous about boasting is bad or whatever. Titles are there to show your accomplishments; but anyone who did everything fairly can’t show any other accomplishment than those who used a portal.
(Edit: I’m also aware that the title is for completing 25 achievements; but I personally feel that it only requires 24 if you use the portals).

What do you guys ‘n girls think of this? Do you think using mesmer portals is cheating, or do you think it’s fair? What do you think Anet could’ve done differently?

I personally believe that the jumping puzzle (if anything) should’ve had a separate achievement and separate title, neither of which counted toward the ‘overall’ Southsun achievement/rewards. Unless there was an ‘ultimate’ achievement for completing all plus the puzzle.. (Edit: To clear up, the issue is not about ‘the jumping puzzle not having an achievement/etc. of its own, but that it can be ’done’ too easy and counts toward a larger achievement).

At very least, putting an object, required for an achievement, (which again is required for a reward and a title), at the end of a hard jumping puzzle, is only going to make people want to find an easier solution.

Edit: Having to include (for some reason that frankly isn’t very obvious to me, but maybe I didn’t make it clear enough) that this is meant as a discussion/debate about whether or not this is okay, and what you think about the issue. Is it an issue? Did you jump or use a portal, and what does it mean to you? (So on. That kind of questions..)

The title only requires 25 achievements to be completed. You do not need to do the jumping puzzle, it’s an extra point (there’s 11 locations and you only need 10). Also, the jumping puzzle does have a separate achievement (Skipping Stones), just like every other jumping puzzle in the game.

But yes, using a portal to skip to the end of a puzzle is cheating.

That title doesn’t have anything to do with jumping puzzle. Why? Because you have to complete 25 achievements to get it. So you can get that title without doing the Islet sample. That’s about it. If you did the jumping puzzle, good for you mate, want a candy?

I’ve completed all the jumping puzzles in game long looong before The Secret of Southsun living story. Lots of people did. What did we get doing all of them? Other than some RNG items and handful of achievement points; nothing. No title, no nothing.

I got the title without doing the JP. It was much more exhilarating putting on goggles and jumping off the planks into the lava!

I’m not gonna blame you however ur feelings are on the matter. It is a personal preference, but I have no objections as to how ppl get their titles. For me I only care that I can get the title, and I don’t want to make a fuss of how ppl do their stuff, as much as I don’t want ppl to fuss abt with how I do my stuff.

I hope mesmer portals will continue as it is, I don’t feel it as cheating at all. I love the idea in fact, so much that one of the reasons I worked on my jumping skills and made my last toon a mesmer is to i can help port ppl up. Yea i enjoy doing that.

True, the title only requires 25 achievements. But when people are able to cheat this way, then it kind of only requires 24. I’m aware the JP doesn’t link directly to the title, but it still does count toward it.

And Erdem, I’m not sure you got my point. This isn’t a problem about there ‘not being rewards’ for jumping puzzles, or ‘not being a good way to display the accomplishment’ or whatever. It’s about the exact opposite.
It affects the people who got the title without the JP as well.

If you expected putting up a title to actually elevate you in the eyes of others, you might want to get more coffee or something, you’re not quite awake yet.

LameFox, you didn’t get my point either. It’s not about me having a title. I don’t see a title as some way to “elevate” myself. My entire point, is the issue, the fact you can ‘cheat’ the JP, and I was curious about people’s opinion on the problem.

Jeez, one sometimes has to be surprised about how people cannot have a debate/discussion where they share their viewpoints without having aggression. =_= ..

generalraccoon.3857:

I hope mesmer portals will continue as it is, I don’t feel it as cheating at all. I love the idea in fact, so much that one of the reasons I worked on my jumping skills and made my last toon a mesmer is to i can help port ppl up. Yea i enjoy doing that.

Interesting. What is your viewpoint on that only mesmers can make this portal then? Do you find that fair, or should others have a similar ability? I know some mesmers are making gold off it; what do you think about that?

Cherrylin.5869:

LameFox, you didn’t get my point either. It’s not about me having a title. I don’t see a title as some way to “elevate” myself. My entire point, is the issue, the fact you can ‘cheat’ the JP, and I was curious about people’s opinion on the problem.

Jeez, one sometimes has to be surprised about how people cannot have a debate/discussion where they share their viewpoints without having aggression. =_= ..

In what sense are you using the word ‘honor’ then?

Well, I can see your point. But from what I know, mesmer-portals can be used for several jumping-puzzles not just this one. It is a general problem. For me personally it feels a bit like cheating, but it seems to be widly used and afaik A-Net made no objections about this. I am really bad at jumping puzzles and tbh atm I feel tempted to use a portal because crab-toss is even more confusing for me. So well, I really can’t decide.

At least you know that you did it yourself.

And I wouldn’t blame the mesmers. They are just beeing kind.

LameFox.6349:

In what sense are you using the word ‘honor’ then?

Very well, ‘honor’ might’ve been the wrong term, I’ll admit that. I can’t really come up with any other word to sum it up, but I believe a lot of people bear a title to show an accomplishment; that they managed to do something and they’re proud of that. That’s not necesarrily boasting. Especially during these events; people wearing this title right now possibly do it to show they did it; then they’ll possibly take another one of their choice when it’s over.

When do you (if you do) use a title and why, though? It doesn’t seem to me we agree on the matter.

I did the jumping puzzle before the update so having a mesmer port for the sample saved a lot of time.

Lyru.9380:

I did the jumping puzzle before the update so having a mesmer port for the sample saved a lot of time.

That I can certainly see as being just fine, personally. Seeing as the puzzle was already done ealier. Again, that’s just my opinion.

What do you think about it when people haven’t done the puzzle though? Do you have any opinion on that?

Cherrylin.5869:

Interesting. What is your viewpoint on that only mesmers can make this portal then? Do you find that fair, or should others have a similar ability? I know some mesmers are making gold off it; what do you think about that?

I’m still on the fence whether or not other classes should be able to do such teleports. On one hand it would heavily favor having a mesmer class for this, but then again some classes I feel have advantage to jumping that if they can port ppl, mesmers would be utterly neglected in this respect. As an example, for me, my ranger with her perma-speed boost, medium sized toon, and a skill with LONG stability duration, actually makes going through jumping puzzles the EASIEST, as opposed to my mesmer where I need to equip focus for TEMPORARY speed boost (what happens when u need to hold something else, like torches in the EB JP dark room section ) and a mantra for stability that lasts abt 2 seconds each only? If my ranger could port, where would my mesmer be? :P so i’ll stay on the fence with this.

Mesmer ports making money? Look, I think it is entirely up to them if they want to charge, but so far, on my server at least, I haven’t seen any “Will port ppl up jp for X gold” or such. Most are like me, we happily offer portal services, and if people feel they wanna give gifts of some currency, then we happily accept. Otherwise, its a free service. So if you don’t wanna pay, I think we can still find other mesmers who would port for free. My chief worry therefore is gold4port becomes an epidemic like people only wanting CoF1 runs for dungeons. This CREATES a problem when there should’nt be one so I can only advise mesmers to not make mandatory fee for their services. Let’s keep things friendly and fun.

Well that’s my opinion.

generalraccoon.3857:

I’m still on the fence whether or not other classes should be able to do such teleports. On one hand it would heavily favor having a mesmer class for this, but then again some classes I feel have advantage to jumping that if they can port ppl, mesmers would be utterly neglected in this respect. As an example, for me, my ranger with her perma-speed boost, medium sized toon, and a skill with LONG stability duration, actually makes going through jumping puzzles the EASIEST, as opposed to my mesmer where I need to equip focus for TEMPORARY speed boost (what happens when u need to hold something else, like torches in the EB JP dark room section ) and a mantra for stability that lasts abt 2 seconds each only? If my ranger could port, where would my mesmer be? :P so i’ll stay on the fence with this.

Mesmer ports making money? Look, I think it is entirely up to them if they want to charge, but so far, on my server at least, I haven’t seen any “Will port ppl up jp for X gold” or such. Most are like me, we happily offer portal services, and if people feel they wanna give gifts of some currency, then we happily accept. Otherwise, its a free service. So if you don’t wanna pay, I think we can still find other mesmers who would port for free. My chief worry therefore is gold4port becomes an epidemic like people only wanting CoF1 runs for dungeons. This CREATES a problem when there should’nt be one so I can only advise mesmers to not make mandatory fee for their services. Let’s keep things friendly and fun.

Well that’s my opinion. :)

I can really see what you mean with being on ‘the fence’ about that. Though now I’m thinking that perhaps anet should do something regarding advantages/disadvantages. So that everyone’s equal. Yet maybe it’s a good thing because people will be used to i.e. a permanent speed boost, or maybe some enjoy the difference in difficulty.

Hopefully, most mesmers won’t charge a fee. I just recall I saw one or two in the chat yesterday saying they’d port for a gold.

Thanks a lot. ^^

If what you’re looking for is a personal sense of achievement and you’re not looking for other people to be impressed then I don’t see what the problem is. You know you earned that title.

Same way a lot of people will assume everyone with a legendary weapon bought it on the Trading Post. But a lot of people made it themselves, and they’ll know that and have that sense of achievement even if no one else knows.

Cherrylin.5869:

LameFox.6349:

In what sense are you using the word ‘honor’ then?

Very well, ‘honor’ might’ve been the wrong term, I’ll admit that. I can’t really come up with any other word to sum it up, but I believe a lot of people bear a title to show an accomplishment; that they managed to do something and they’re proud of that. That’s not necesarrily boasting. Especially during these events; people wearing this title right now possibly do it to show they did it; then they’ll possibly take another one of their choice when it’s over.

When do you (if you do) use a title and why, though? It doesn’t seem to me we agree on the matter.

As with anything that has no function but needs some doing to acquire, I use them (very rarely, because I dislike most) for decoration. Whether or not it was difficult to get is only relevant when I’m considering if it’s worth the bother (and rarity wise, Stalwart is right up there with obtaining blue items for karma – the requirements could be met by accident, and all you’ve got to do is select it).

Oh, I thought I’d found another use one time: when farming the Molten Facilities repeatedly for a few days, I selected ‘avenger of the dispossessed’ – but it didn’t stop people asking if I’d done it before.

Danikat.8537:

Same way a lot of people will assume everyone with a legendary weapon bought it on the Trading Post. But a lot of people made it themselves, and they’ll know that and have that sense of achievement even if no one else knows.

Reminds me of a few months ago when I got my GS skin from the forge… complete accident, just throwing stuff in because I like to see what happens, and I got that Khrysaor out of it. Checked TP and it wasn’t worth much (or had no sellers, I forget) and it looked okay so I transmuted it and kept it.

…it took weeks before I finally figured out why people kept walking up to stare at my back wherever I stopped in LA.

LameFox.6349:

As with anything that has no function but needs some doing to acquire, I use them (very rarely, because I dislike most) for decoration. Whether or not it was difficult to get is only relevant when I’m considering if it’s worth the bother (and rarity wise, Stalwart is right up there with obtaining blue items for karma – the requirements could be met by accident, and all you’ve got to do is select it).

When you say ‘decoration’, is it because you’d use one you think sounds good/fits with your character? Since you mention rarity, does rarity affect whether or not you’ll use a title?

LameFox.6349:

Oh, I thought I’d found another use one time: when farming the Molten Facilities repeatedly for a few days, I selected ‘avenger of the dispossessed’ – but it didn’t stop people asking if I’d done it before.

Hmm, probably shows how little people actually pay attention to the titles. xD

Cherrylin.5869:

When you say ‘decoration’, is it because you’d use one you think sounds good/fits with your character? Since you mention rarity, does rarity affect whether or not you’ll use a title?

If it was ridiculously underused I might put it up just to be contrary, or also if it was quite silly and I found it amusing. Rarity in the ‘hard to get’ sense would only affect my choice in that I’d not have bothered with it unless it was incidental to something (for instance I do intend to eventually get full exploration, but it’s nothing to do with the title) or I liked the sound of it. So basically no different to a skin. If I get one I don’t want, no matter how rare it might be, I’m not equipping it.

Now if only I could put them up on sell orders as well…

LameFox.6349:

If it was ridiculously underused I might put it up just to be contrary, or also if it was quite silly and I found it amusing. Rarity in the ‘hard to get’ sense would only affect my choice in that I’d not have bothered with it unless it was incidental to something (for instance I do intend to eventually get full exploration, but it’s nothing to do with the title) or I liked the sound of it. So basically no different to a skin. If I get one I don’t want, no matter how rare it might be, I’m not equipping it.

Now if only I could put them up on sell orders as well…

I agree with you there. I’m also going to get all the exploration done, but that’s because I’m a completionist and have always been (and what a curse it can be…) I also happen to have a specific skin, but that’s more to do with the story/personality I have for the character.

I’ll let you in on a little secret. A huge target group of mainstream mmorpgs are people who completely suck at everything they do.

The reason for this is that mmorpgs hides the incompetence of people via grinding and grouping.

Why do you think that the Mad Clock Tower got and Crab Toss gets so many complaints. The answer is simple. Those activities can’t be brute forced, nor can someone else easily carry you through them.

If the mesmer portal didn’t exist, jumping puzzles in general would get far more complaints than they are getting right now.

Wildclaw.6073:

Why do you think that the Mad Clock Tower got and Crab Toss gets so many complaints.

I’m glad someone made this comparison. The reason in both cases is that they are poorly designed. The primary challenge of clocktower was not in the timed jumping requirement as it was supposed to be, it was in surviving the first few jumps where you were blinded by the crowd. One of the reasons that Wintersday JP worked better was because of the split start where 90% of the bad jumpers eliminated themselves before they could interfere at the “hard” part. From what I saw in clock tower, the large majority of people did not even get to the part where they were under real time pressure. Time pressure at the beginning only served to force people to blindly follow the crowd and when someone made a bad jump, triggering others to do the same, instantly 90% of the players would just fall out. Likewise, 90% of a crab toss win is directly attributable to whether the guys chasing the leader are doing more to impede each other than to stop him. These are PvP modes where, in practice, the core gameplay mechanic is griefing (whether intentional or not). Most people aren’t masochists, and a minigame has to be good first in order for it to be worth learning. Crab toss and clock tower are not good minigames, which is why people would rather quit and complain than to spend the time to get good at them. This would be a logical result. Consider that the only reason most people even play keg brawl is for achievements. Now make the achievements that much harder and less fun to get, and you have crab toss and the resulting fallout.

Sure, there are always people who want free achievements, but that isn’t what causes these two minigames to get overwhelmingly negative responses. Look at the design. The answers are there.

And really, dat targeting UI. In 2013.

The use of Mesmer portals is not cheating. The use of Mesmer portals does not undermine the accomplishments of others. Those who wish to do the jumping puzzle can and will do the jumping puzzle. Those who do not wish to do the jumping puzzle will find a way around it. As far as the title is concerned only 10/11 of the samples is required so it is possible to achieve the title without obtaining the sample past the jumping puzzle. Which makes the usage of Mesmer portals even more of a moot point.

I did the jumping puzzle early on in the patch before almost anyone even realized there was a sample there, and now I hate seeing all the ports.

To put it a less arrogant way, I stumbled through every second of the jumping puzzle and I’m so happy i didn’t port. I even made a friend midway through and we adventured to find the sample when nobody knew where it was.

It was the most fulfilling thing I’ve done on South sun yet, and people are robbing themselves of a great experience by porting.

As stated earlier in this thread, you don’t even need this sample to obtain the title in question. So sounds like the OP want a different title for completing all 11, is that right?

I’m legally blind. I navigate dungeons, I PvP, I do plenty of stuff. One thing which I struggle at, however, is jumping puzzles. Oh, give me a few days and I might master it— but I might miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss that very same jump that everyone else gets, no problem.

Sad thing is, *I*am a mesmer. So it’s even worse when I fail, because the attitude is, ‘you suck’, because a mesmers’ job now is to portal folks over stuff they don’t want to do. (That cof path with the boulders is a good example— everyone makes the blind mesmer do it to portal them over while they hang back, when it would be just as easy to one, two, three, pause, four, five, done.)

So I take the darn portal, and I stick around to portal other folks. There’s probably someone in that group that has sight or motor problems, too.

If that means I don’t deserve the achievement, well, I work harder most of the time than you do to do the same content, and I don’t complain in the forums that brochachos have this game on easymode.

In my experience titles themselves don’t carry any honor, it is the people that do regardless if they have titles or not. As the old saying goes, “don’t judge a book by its cover,” and remember humility goes a long way.

Wildclaw.6073:

Why do you think that the Mad Clock Tower got and Crab Toss gets so many complaints. The answer is simple. Those activities can’t be brute forced, nor can someone else easily carry you through them.

If the mesmer portal didn’t exist, jumping puzzles in general would get far more complaints than they are getting right now.

I see where you’re coming from, and it’s sad. There really are a lot of people who complain when things are hard, and I certainly don’t hope that Anet takes out these things because of the complaints. I absolutely loved the clock tower.

Leablo.2651:

I’m glad someone made this comparison. The reason in both cases is that they are poorly designed. The primary challenge of clocktower was not in the timed jumping requirement as it was supposed to be, it was in surviving the first few jumps where you were blinded by the crowd.

Agreed, the crowd makes it much more difficult, no doubt about that. At least it’s often only the first few jumps that’ll really be a problem.. but still.

CalvinHobbes.3541:

The use of Mesmer portals is not cheating. The use of Mesmer portals does not undermine the accomplishments of others. Those who wish to do the jumping puzzle can and will do the jumping puzzle. Those who do not wish to do the jumping puzzle will find a way around it. As far as the title is concerned only 10/11 of the samples is required so it is possible to achieve the title without obtaining the sample past the jumping puzzle. Which makes the usage of Mesmer portals even more of a moot point.

It’s true you don’t need every sample, but it does help as getting that last sample rewards two achievements (I forgot if they both count toward the Stalwart title..?).

Malleus Maleficarum.2603:

I did the jumping puzzle early on in the patch before almost anyone even realized there was a sample there, and now I hate seeing all the ports.

To put it a less arrogant way, I stumbled through every second of the jumping puzzle and I’m so happy i didn’t port. I even made a friend midway through and we adventured to find the sample when nobody knew where it was.

It was the most fulfilling thing I’ve done on South sun yet, and people are robbing themselves of a great experience by porting.

Agreed.

Medazolam.3058:

As stated earlier in this thread, you don’t even need this sample to obtain the title in question. So sounds like the OP want a different title for completing all 11, is that right?

No. But what I do think is that the result of doing the puzzle maybe shouldn’t go toward the larger achievement+puzzle at all. It could have its own achievement, but not one that counts under this particular title.

Sylv.5324:

I’m legally blind. I navigate dungeons, I PvP, I do plenty of stuff. One thing which I struggle at, however, is jumping puzzles. Oh, give me a few days and I might master it— but I might miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss and miss that very same jump that everyone else gets, no problem.

Sad thing is, *I*am a mesmer. So it’s even worse when I fail, because the attitude is, ‘you suck’, because a mesmers’ job now is to portal folks over stuff they don’t want to do. (That cof path with the boulders is a good example— everyone makes the blind mesmer do it to portal them over while they hang back, when it would be just as easy to one, two, three, pause, four, five, done.)

So I take the darn portal, and I stick around to portal other folks. There’s probably someone in that group that has sight or motor problems, too.

If that means I don’t deserve the achievement, well, I work harder most of the time than you do to do the same content, and I don’t complain in the forums that brochachos have this game on easymode.

That is a very interesting viewpoint, thanks for sharing. I can see what you mean, that it would be very difficult to obtain the achievement for you, moreso than most. Awful that people treat you that way though.

Do you think there is a really better solution to the ‘issue’, than mesmer ports?

Joseph Skyrim.2470:

In my experience titles themselves don’t carry any honor, it is the people that do regardless if they have titles or not. As the old saying goes, “don’t judge a book by its cover,” and remember humility goes a long way.

Oh, what a great use of that saying. Thanks. ^^

Cherrylin.5869:

generalraccoon.3857:

I hope mesmer portals will continue as it is, I don’t feel it as cheating at all. I love the idea in fact, so much that one of the reasons I worked on my jumping skills and made my last toon a mesmer is to i can help port ppl up. Yea i enjoy doing that.

Interesting. What is your viewpoint on that only mesmers can make this portal then? Do you find that fair, or should others have a similar ability? I know some mesmers are making gold off it; what do you think about that?

Everyone has the ability to make a mesmer and train portal.

In the spirit of OP’s original intentions; no I don’t see a problem with it.

Firstly the title is ridiculously easy to get, and will become more so once the remaining handful of achievements become unlocked; the title only really serves as a badge to say “I was here”, which is good IMO, it means everyone gets a little something for attending.

Secondly, there are some players out there with the hand-eye co-ordination of a lazy-eyed goldfish yet are a little obsessive about completion and I wouldn’t begrudge them the chance to get the extra sample.

Finally, I personally completed the jumping puzzle legitly (I quite enjoy JP’s), and being a mesmer I ported some folks up there while I was around (Didn’t ask nor recieve any tips), I often send portals to people who want to shortcut JP’s – I enjoy JP’s and I know some people hate them, so it’s mutually useful and I’m not one to say “If you can’t do it legit you don’t deserve to complete it”; they’ve usually given it a good try first

No honor in completing that puzzle whatsoever since it relies more on luck than actual skill.

When doing this puzzle it seems i’m playing Prince of Persia for DOS, which means if your jump is off by a pixel or a fraction of a second you’re dead (well in this case it’s a boot to the beginning). This is no way challenging, just annoying.

Of course i complain about other minor problems:
There’s the one of the view getting blocked by the fume jets but you’ll eventually memorize where to jump after so many failed attempts anyway.
The platforms also tend to form with a little delay so if you’re hasty on the first jump well, you’re screwed.

Also, why no save point midway like on that other asuran JP?
I did that one in almost 1 go but this one couldn’t have a checkpoint between those 2 timed phases…

Regarding mesmers and portals, anyone is free to finish the content as they please. Heck if there was a mesmer around when i was trying to get the achievement i would jump to the portal right away. Still, i would never pay for a portal, i had done that before so i would eventually do it again.

Last remark, i’ve done all JPs and this particular one more than once so don’t just start with L2P business.

Sylv.5324:

(That cof path with the boulders is a good example— everyone makes the blind mesmer do it to portal them over while they hang back, when it would be just as easy to one, two, three, pause, four, five, done.)

lol. I hope you at least take your armour off first…

First (and only) time I did that path, me and one other figured it out and sat up the end waiting for ages as the others kept dying in spite of our explanations. Eventually we went around the corner and up the ramp without them, and fought some random animal there (a lizard or whatever it is).

Flameseeker.1563:

Also, why no save point midway like on that other asuran JP?

The one over Metrica? I was doing that on my warrior once and after a few stages passed I finally fell over the edge. Loading screen. Kept falling into Metrica and landed near some inquest facility… where a random began reviving me as I was in the map trying to figure out where I was.

Later I heard it wasn’t supposed to do that. Must have been a hell of a surprise to the person I landed near, then…

Malleus Maleficarum.2603:

I did the jumping puzzle early on in the patch before almost anyone even realized there was a sample there, and now I hate seeing all the ports.

To put it a less arrogant way, I stumbled through every second of the jumping puzzle and I’m so happy i didn’t port. I even made a friend midway through and we adventured to find the sample when nobody knew where it was.

It was the most fulfilling thing I’ve done on South sun yet, and people are robbing themselves of a great experience by porting.

I got to within 2-3 jumps of the end twice and fell off due to (1st) the tiny floating rock being barely visible through my sizeable character, (2nd) having the rock disintegrate under me as I was realigning the camera to be able to see ahead. In neither case was it anything besides irritating, and sometimes even nauseating (camera bouncing off the wall and, when I descended, the rocks behind me).

Not feeling terribly robbed of anything here – I didn’t even portal to it, because I’d rather not validate its existence after that – and if people want to portal it and never look back, I hope they all do. Maybe if it becomes enough of a thing they’ll finally either fix the awful way this game handles camera positioning (I was going to say on large characters, but on second thought it’s not even that, smaller ones just chance to avoid it more often) or pay attention to it when making puzzles.

Incidentally, the achievements themselves give away the locations when combined with the sonar ping.

To answer the OP, no, I do not see it as cheating. As others have pointed out, you simply need to complete 25 achievements, and there’s way more than that available. The fact that ANet also made the Sample Collection title completable with just 10/11 samples collected tells me they were careful not to force players to have to complete the JP sample if they didn’t want to (or couldn’t).

As someone who likes completing JP’s the normal way, I take satisfaction in the knowledge that I have completed it myself. That satisfaction is its own reward, so I have no issues with somebody who needs help to get to the end. I completed Skipping Stones normally on 3 of my characters. My last two characters I got portals up there (an Asura and a Charr), but I know I could have done them normally too if I wanted to. It was just a matter of saving time.

There should be a title for completing all the Jumping Puzzles, in my opinion, but it’s not something I urgently want or need. (Besides, my “Distinction in Applied Jumping” title is already neat. )

Cherrylin.5869:

Alright, maybe I’ll look like one of the few ‘whining’ about this. You can also choose to throw some insult at me. Though, I’m really just trying to have a debate about a possible issue; whether or not the Southsun Stalwart title has much less honor than it could’ve had.

Why? Because of how a lot of people used a mesmer portal to get to the islet.

I did the jumping puzzle; I know a lot of other people did it too. We can of course take pride in that and have that ‘yes, I did it!’ feeling.. but we can’t really use the Southsun Stalwart title to show it. Now, people, don’t say something ridiculous about boasting is bad or whatever. Titles are there to show your accomplishments; but anyone who did everything fairly can’t show any other accomplishment than those who used a portal.
(Edit: I’m also aware that the title is for completing 25 achievements; but I personally feel that it only requires 24 if you use the portals).

What do you guys ‘n girls think of this? Do you think using mesmer portals is cheating, or do you think it’s fair? What do you think Anet could’ve done differently?

I personally believe that the jumping puzzle (if anything) should’ve had a separate achievement and separate title, neither of which counted toward the ‘overall’ Southsun achievement/rewards. Unless there was an ‘ultimate’ achievement for completing all plus the puzzle.. (Edit: To clear up, the issue is not about ‘the jumping puzzle not having an achievement/etc. of its own, but that it can be ’done’ too easy and counts toward a larger achievement).

At very least, putting an object, required for an achievement, (which again is required for a reward and a title), at the end of a hard jumping puzzle, is only going to make people want to find an easier solution.

Edit: Having to include (for some reason that frankly isn’t very obvious to me, but maybe I didn’t make it clear enough) that this is meant as a discussion/debate about whether or not this is okay, and what you think about the issue. Is it an issue? Did you jump or use a portal, and what does it mean to you? (So on. That kind of questions..)

I used a portal. I don’t like jumping puzzles that are more frustrating than fun, and these timed jumps are not fun to me. I tried for over an hour or two. Do you suggest people keep trying even if they have no luck before the event ends?

You guys are crazy :-)

It’s an easy jumping event (I refuse to call these puzzles!) that might take you no more than a few minutes practice jumping around anywhere. The bigger/smaller characters have a tougher time of it, but I wouldn’t be putting it in any too-hard-baskets at all.

Southsun jumps in particular are some low-hanging fruit. I often did the vents for dailies just because it’s a free trip from LA to Southsun, and you get two chests for the price of one. Just follow the path up to the champ, and nab the chest from behind him

One thing this post taught me: I really need to roll a Mesmer and start porting people for tips! Wow talk about free cash.

Crab Toss Champion is the only honorable title in the game.

I think they should disable teleport for JPs. Otherwise, what really is the point? You let one person do all the work and then you get the benefit, oftentimes with no compensation given.

Porting up JPs is really a symptom of a larger problem in real life…the ‘everyone is a winner’ syndrome. If you truly feel left out on something and are bad at it…then you should have to work to get better so you can do it. Not get a ‘free pass’ from someone.

Cherrylin.5869:

Do you think using mesmer portals is cheating, or do you think it’s fair?

So… is pre-watching a video guide on how to do the Skipping Stones puzzle “cheating” or less honorable?

Or how about watching someone ahead of you (who evidently did it before and knows where to go) and stepping only where he goes, does that demean the point of the puzzle?

Or maybe instead of just being observed, that someone is actually leading you step by step?

Or maybe you feel that the actual button presses must be executed by the individual – in which case, how about a case where someone can’t manage the puzzle and hands the keyboard off to a friend or spouse to do it for them?

There’s kind of a big fuzzy spectrum all the way from coming in completely cold, doing it utterly alone with only the observation of scenery to guide your jumps to making use of a mesmer portal which is there, encompassing knowledge and execution.

Personally, as an explorer sort of gamer, I don’t like these things spoiled for me. I enjoy coming in cold, and beating my head against it and practising until I get the hang of the jumps and accomplish it at least once. I only look up a video guide if I’ve been stuck for ages and can’t figure out where to go.

But I’m not above following someone else’s lead or accepting their well meaning advice (even if I’d really rather do it myself) if they happen to be there. It dilutes a little bit of my personal fun, but I’ll compromise about it regardless, accept their help, say ‘thank you’ at the end and leave them feeling good about themselves. Why? Because I believe GW2 is meant to be, and designed to be, a social, inclusive game.

Nor will I think less of mesmer portals, because they serve that purpose. They enable a well meaning individual to help another. They engender some form of social interaction, even if it’s just an announcement and a ‘thx’ from either party.

And when you really look at it, very few people care about the process, they just want the shiny at the end. If the portal helps them get it faster, then it’s all well and good. This says absolutely nothing about the portal or the puzzle, but volumes about them and what they value – having easy and clear direction, taking shortcuts, optimizing for efficiency. There’s quite a hefty majority of ’em, really.

So whether or not a particular action is “cheating” is pretty much in the eye of the beholder. (And ultimately for ArenaNet to enforce.)

And in this case, it seems pretty ridiculous to declare portals bypassing jumping puzzles a “cheat” in order to preserve the feelings of a small subset of people who -can- jump the puzzle and value a title that’s barely even linked to it, when the overall purpose appears to be providing inclusive alternatives and options for the greatest number of players to enjoy themselves in Southsun.

My suggestion? Focus on yourself. Enjoy the process of jumping the puzzle if you enjoy it. Worry less about how other people are accomplishing the same act. What’s fun for the goose isn’t necessarily fun for the gander.

Honestly I don’t have a problem with it. I only wish more classes had valuable and somewhat tricky “adventuring skills” like how a mesmer can portal people up a JP or thieves can shadow refuge people to steal chests and skill points, and resource nodes from aggressive mobs.

What if warriors could smash shortcuts through some things, or necros could res key NPCs to prevent event failures, or guardians could wall off broken doors, or rangers could communicate with animals to change them to green mobs?

I don’t have a problem with classes having special things they’re good at, as long as it’s not required to complete whatever content they’re shortcutting. It makes classes a little more special without actually putting them in to a strict trinity-style dependance hierarchy.

Personally I don’t see an issue with it myself since there are currently like 29 achievements you can do, and another 5 or 6 that hasn’t came out yet… so in a sense it’s irrelievant, as far as your point on the honor or cheating, I can’t say that I really care or find it an issue. If it didn’t exist I wouldn’t cry, I would just do it the way it has to be done, I guess you can say this about any shortcut, like the Eternal Battleground JP, everyone does it… and apprently ANET doesn’t have a problem with it.

I got all the jumping honor I wanted (even more, way more) playing Jersey Devil back in the 90’ thank you.
Give me that pink portal bro.

Of course it’s cheating, but it doesn’t particularly hurt anyone. I did the jumping puzzle properly during Southsun’s original release, and it took me ages and I felt accomplished when I finished it. But I took the mesmer teleport this time, because I had no inclination nor time to do it twice just to collect a stupid sample.

I feel this one rather falls in ArenaNet’s court for putting the sample at the end of a JP. I personally like JPs, but they can be very involved and time-consuming to get right, some people have real difficulty with the camera issues during them, and some people just hate them. They’re a great optional part of the game, but emphasis on optional.

I think the OP’s reasoning is flawed.

The achievement is NOT for the JP, but for 25 achievements, of which 11 are the samples. You get the achievement for getting the samples, not for doing the JP. So if the game offers a possibility to get to the sample without doing the JP, then that’s seems perfectly valid to me.

What I don’t find just is that upon porting I got the Skipping Stone achievement. Now that is cheating.

Alright, thanks, everyone!
It’s been a great read and the many different viewpoints are really interesting to me. I think we’ve kind of gotten around all sorts of perspectives, and there has certainly been some valid reasons brought up.

At least I personally feel I’ve gotten enough answers from many different eyes, so I’m satisfied. Thanks again. ^^

(And yes, I did read everyone’s post, I just didn’t feel like quoting everyone to answer them directly, when I’d say about the same and like to end the discussion, at least on my end).

Lyru.9380:

I did the jumping puzzle before the update so having a mesmer port for the sample saved a lot of time.

Same here. Having already done it before, I found it faster just to use the Mesmer who was porting at that time. I tried to do it a couple of times before using the Mesmer, but then remembered what the whole JP was, and remembered that I didn’t really like that (especially once you get passed all the floating rocks part). I got no problem using a Mesmer’s portal, since its just just another way to complete the content. You take either the easier route (not necessarily cheaper, since you should tip the Mesmer something for doing it) or the harder/more time consuming way.

Scumbag Mawile.6384:

Crab Toss Champion is the only honorable title in the game.

Not really, when it first came out, after the end of the round everyone was considered a winner (they got both the title and the crown above the head).