Guild Wars 2

At request of Fabri the Suspicious, a suspected Order of Whispers member, Innkeeper Klement needs to retrieve dwarven artifacts from False Lake to prevent the local pirates from potentially unleashing trouble on the area. As players we dive into the lake to collect the artifacts guarded by skelk, sharks, and other dangers. Upon collecting them the Innkeeper thanks us and returns to the inn. Should you follow you’ll learn that one of the artifacts found is of Stone Summit make, an old summoning stone that should be dealt with. Unfortunately, the local pirates followed you and have other plans for the artifacts. Should they succeed, they use the artifact and get turned into incinerated husks and you as the players must defeat them to save the inn. Should the pirates fail, you are sent on an escort mission with the artifacts to Vanjir’s Stead. After successfully escorting the caravan the Asura from the priory who helped with the escort offers to aid is disposing of the summoning stone, as it is “risky business”. If you follow the asura you find out that to destroy the artifact we must kill the demon bound to it. The demon, Lord Ignis, is summoned and we as the players must defeat it to complete this chain of events successfully. Doing so spawns a new merchant

This is an example of one of my favorite and memorable dynamic events in Guild Wars 2. It’s what I think dynamic events should be. Events that have a story, a chain of consequences that can lead an event to multiple outcomes, characters that exchange dialogue with each other to help provide exposition, characters that allow for players to interact with them to provide exposition should they have missed the story so far, changes that mean something to the world (different enemies appearing, new merchants, destroyed buildings… even a bear skin rug made me smile after helping a norn hunt a veteran arctodus). Other things I enjoy that this event doesn’t have are multiple branches that start in separate areas, but join for an epic conclusion (e.g., Ogre Wars). I also think events should be challenging, but that is not the point of this post.

I’d like to contrast these events with the events added in the latest patch. Scarlet’s Invasion does have story, but it’s largely disconnected from the invasion events, and when this phase of the living story passes it will be gone completely. The invasion lacks purpose, as none is provided during the event or prior to it for why Scarlet is attacking these zones. The only information provided through the UI is that she is indeed attacking them. When in these zones she isn’t gathering resources, attacking important objectives, or even killing people (intentionally). In fact the zone acts as if she isn’t even there at all. In Blazeridge the ogres still want you to help them get pets despite the aetherblades teleporting right outside their doorstep and the outposts carry on their day to day business despite steampunk creatures attacking the local wildlife in their vicinity. Without these elements Scarlet’s Invasion comes off as just cartoon villainy… evil for the sake of doing evil (while being highly inefficient about doing that evil). Without these elements the event lacks effect on the world both prior, during, and after the event is completed. Without these effects on the world the dynamic events in Guild Wars 2 lose what sets them above and beyond what other games offer in their versions of dynamic events, which are largely just portals opening with monsters coming through in random locations across the map. The portals must be sealed to stop the monsters. (cont’d)

This is also not a problem with just this patch, but dynamic events in the prior living story releases as well. Flame and Frost had random portals appearing with dredge/flame legion that had to be sealed to stop their forces. Secret of Southsun had random champion instigators appearing without discernible reason connected to the event that had to be quelled to stop the uprisings. The Ancient Karka Queen attacks for no discernible reason, but at least summoning her is an involved, multi-step process. The Queen’s Pavillion had legendary bosses appearing with some story reason, but there was no interesting chain of events to spawn them and they are largly just loot pinatas.

Having some dynamic events like these is fine, it gives those who want to farm something to do. The problem is when you continue to develop content like that in lieu of more interesting dynamic event content.

Scarlet’s invasion gets somethings right. It can be somewhat challenging given the time constraints¹ and has multiple objectives that spread players out. It also gets players to the old zones, but they still don’t do the activities there as the activities there are completely disconnected from the invasion, the invasion is timed, and those other activities aren’t as rewarding. However, these successes were not made without removing much of what makes dynamic events above and beyond other game’s offerings. Basically, we traded getting new and interesting dynamic events like we had at release for the rifts from Rift.

¹ – Not challenging in the sense that we have players making use of interesting skill combinations to take down foes, just that it can be failed even with a zerg if events are not simultaneously accomplished.

My thoughts exactly SirMoogie. I like some parts of the invasions but I have not seen or heard of any consequences for failing the event. No consequences equals no gravitas. So in the end, who cares if the event fails. The only reason people are doing them is to get to the achievements and the monetary rewards. No consequences = no risk = less fun (not no fun, but less fun). Anet has the same problem with the dragon events. Good presentation, but very inconsequential. For me personally, this is the biggest problem this game has.

Also the game doesnt do much to show your accomplishment. I think you get a title if you finish the meta and I guess you could pretend that the world is still a safe place since you thwarted the invasion (although the world would be a safe place even if you did nothing since there are no consequences for letting it go). It would be nice if the npcs in were grateful to you for saving them and lowered commodity prices or did something to acknowledge the fact that you saved them from 13 invasions.

Lastly, although Anet did atleast add one mechanic to the fight, it could still use several more. Why cant the npcs be attacking one of the many cool garrisons on the various maps. Why do they have to just stand around in a spot waiting for your group to come along and smash them. And why cant we be killing them with other things besides our normal weapon rotations. I mean seriously, get creative. Put a lighting gun next to a river and let us shock the river with it and cause extra damage to the machines, you know, like you kind of do in the jellyfish fractal. Maybe let us have some arrow carts. Make this epic.

In short this game suffers from a serious lack of immersion. I hope they read these threads and have some ideas on how to make these things better because if they do this game could go on for years.

There have been forum requests for large-scale invasions (like the invasions in Rifts). Posters have asked for events that affected entire zones. Posters asked for content that required some coordination. Posters asked for all of this.

All of that said, consequences for failure would be good; however ANet might then face a similar issue to the one faced by Rift, with players unhappy that areas in the zone they wanted to be in were inaccessible. TW solved this by having the invasion despawn after a short time.

Should invasions path and attack? That’s a great idea. However, of all the bugged events since the game went live, how many involved events involving pathing that had blocking bugs? Maybe that’s something that can be built into the permanent versions.

Motive? Scarlet is as fruity as a nutcake. Mad villains are a staple in some genres, though in fantasy, not as much as in something like super-hero comics. Some of the Joker’s schemes make as little sense as Scarlet’s plans, unless you remember that he wants to make people suffer, especially the B.

That also does not explain why the pirates, dredge and flame legion go along with her. Maybe she is supplying them with their tech? Maybe she has led them to believe that she has a master plan that they think makes sense.

In most stories, the motives for the villains come out at some point. This often takes time. In Prophecies, we don’t learn the Vizier’s true intent until very late in the story (the last mission). With Scarlet, sure, she’s crazy. However, why is she crazy? What makes her tick? Where is the exposition of her internal dynamic? Maybe that stuff is in this patch somewhere. Maybe it isn’t.

IndigoSundown.5419:

There have been forum requests for large-scale invasions (like the invasions in Rifts). Posters have asked for events that affected entire zones. Posters asked for content that required some coordination. Posters asked for all of this.

I am for this if done in similar spirit to those of existing dynamic events. You can have large scale events, invasions, have exposition, and have them affect the world. We can have our cake and eat it too, it just requires more effort. It’s just jarring that the team that brought us The Guild wars 2 Manifesto¹. Has settled on delivering Rift’s mediocre dynamic event system.

All of that said, consequences for failure would be good; however ANet might then face a similar issue to the one faced by Rift, with players unhappy that areas in the zone they wanted to be in were inaccessible. TW solved this by having the invasion despawn after a short time.

A problem, but not one that requires despawning. I am not a game designer, so I leave the ultimate solution to them, but one method is only to have one invasion at a time and scale the reward as the zone remains invaded. This scaled reward should be less than the reward for succeeding at the event.

A better, and more dyanmic event related solution, is to have the invaded zone just operate differently than the uninvaded zone. Instead of having ogres asking to collect pets, have dynamic events spawn for rescuing enslaved ogres. Renown hearts would receive different objectives, and skill points might have to change their events as well. This would require a complete zone overhaul and is a lot of work, but also not unexpected from an MMO content wise. Some MMOs release new zones every three months or so. This is basically taking an old zone and redoing it so it has two states.

Should invasions path and attack? That’s a great idea. However, of all the bugged events since the game went live, how many involved events involving pathing that had blocking bugs? Maybe that’s something that can be built into the permanent versions.

Most pathing dynamic events are fixed and that bugs will exist for content is not a reason against introducing it. The invasions certianly have bugs related to them.

Motive? Scarlet is as fruity as a nutcake. Mad villains are a staple in some genres, though in fantasy, not as much as in something like super-hero comics. Some of the Joker’s schemes make as little sense as Scarlet’s plans, unless you remember that he wants to make people suffer, especially the B.

Even if she is fruity as a nutcake, despite being well educated. It isn’t provided as information during the event very well. Let alone as an explanation for why she is attacking the wildlife in a particular zone. The Joker is insane, yet he still robs banks. He has desires to fulfill and has deranged tactics to fulfill them, some of which include robbing banks in a deranged fashion. Scarlet has no discernible desires. She opens portals over the heads of wildlife so robots can kill them.

That also does not explain why the pirates, dredge and flame legion go along with her. Maybe she is supplying them with their tech? Maybe she has led them to believe that she has a master plan that they think makes sense.

Right, this is a big hole to fill. Completely insane people don’t get invited to colleges and they don’t gather many allies.

In most stories, the motives for the villains come out at some point. This often takes time. In Prophecies, we don’t learn the Vizier’s true intent until very late in the story (the last mission). With Scarlet, sure, she’s crazy. However, why is she crazy? What makes her tick? Where is the exposition of her internal dynamic? Maybe that stuff is in this patch somewhere. Maybe it isn’t.

And all of these motives, should they come out, will be hidden when this phase of the story finishes, yet the invasions are said to continue. Without exposition during the events, I’m afraid they will be as random as Rift’s rifts.

¹ –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35BPhT-KI1E

@IndigoSundown In regards to event failure, maybe they could have a counter that keeps track of everytime an event fails and if it happens enough then some outcome gets produced. Like a bigger invasion. I personally would like to see the whole zone taken over and content become inaccessible but I do understand it would annoy certain people (if were my game and my game alone, Id say screw those people I dont care, this is how I want it, but its not my game) I like the invasions, I think they are half way there. But right now there are very little consequences for failure other than missing out on cool loots and having to slog through the event again to get the achievements. And if they are having trouble with blocking bugs maybe they should be devoting more of their resources to fix those instead of putting out this unpolished content every two weeks.

EverquestNext is touting that it will be able to do the things Im asking for. If they pull it off I know where Ill be going.

Savoy.6824:

EverquestNext is touting that it will be able to do the things Im asking for. If they pull it off I know where Ill be going.

Exactly. When I read the Everquest Next previews I was sitting there aghast that they didn’t mention Guild wars 2 anywhere, and were touting this as some new system. However, seeing how Arena Net is choosing to spend their resources lately has me wondering if Everquest Next will be the place to go, as the resources are being spent not on what I consider Guild Wars 2’s most unique feature, but on adding easily farmable events with little story or consequences. I fell in love with Guild Wars 2 during the beta crossing events like the one I described in the original post. I feel Arena Net’s ambitions for two week releases may be too much, and that it is causing them to split their teams too small to deliver new content like full zones with new and interesting stories told through events.

I’m willing to give them more time though as it was relatively recently they announced four living story teams. This gives each team two months for content creation and delivery. Unfortunately that is still probably too little for MMO zone development, a process I imagine requires around 3-6 months for a well sized team. However, if they can’t deliver, I’d much prefer they return to a traditional release schedule for MMOs. I understand this carries with it the risk of losing players who digest content rapidly, but if the content churned out isn’t up to snuff with other MMOs that take their time between releases, they are going to lose out to those other MMOs anyway.

I want Anet to win, I really do. Especially since Ive put a considerable investment of my own real life money into this game. But at the moment they are not giving me what I thought they said they were going to give me in the manifesto. This game has several cool things like a nice combat system and wvw but what really got me to get back into mmo’s was the dynamic event system. The one they told us about not the one they actually delivered.

But theres still hope. I mean they have the system in place they just need to use it an perfect it. Its crazy because if they did perfect it they wouldnt have to release content every two weeks because the game would actually be a total blast and they wouldnt even need the two week gimmick. The content would be writing itsself. And alas, EQnext isnt coming out this year anyway.

SirMoogie.9263:

I’m willing to give them more time though as it was relatively recently they announced four living story teams. This gives each team two months for content creation and delivery. Unfortunately that is still probably too little for MMO zone development, a process I imagine requires around 3-6 months for a well sized team. However, if they can’t deliver, I’d much prefer they return to a traditional release schedule for MMOs. I understand this carries with it the risk of losing players who digest content rapidly, but if the content churned out isn’t up to snuff with other MMOs that take their time between releases, they are going to lose out to those other MMOs anyway.

I believe that the team that did Queen’s Jubilee and Clockwork Chaos are the same, just as Sanctum and Politics were produced by the same team. If that’s true, then each team would be responsible for 4 weeks of content across two releases. This would give each team 12 weeks between the end of their current cycle and the start of their next cycle. I believe a new zone is feasible in that time frame, especially if resources not in one of the teams is producing part of the package. I guess we’ll see.

Whatever the flaws with this current patch, you’d have to admit it is a bit more ambitious than prior content has been. This might be because this team had more lead time.

I’m also willing to give them time. I think their plan has potential to make the game great. While it’s not there yet, it’s better (to me) than anything currently on the market. Ommv, of course.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that the team that did Queen’s Jubilee and Clockwork Chaos are the same, just as Sanctum and Politics were produced by the same team. If that’s true, then each team would be responsible for 4 weeks of content across two releases. This would give each team 12 weeks between the end of their current cycle and the start of their next cycle. I believe a new zone is feasible in that time frame, especially if resources not in one of the teams is producing part of the package. I guess we’ll see.

That’s a good counterpoint. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I’m also willing to give them time. I think their plan has potential to make the game great. While it’s not there yet, it’s better (to me) than anything currently on the market. Ommv, of course.

I agree.

I do agree IndigoSundown it is better and more ambitious than what they have put out prior. I really am happy that theyre finally doing big map invasions. I guess you gotta start somewhere. Also I am enjoying this patch as a whole. I just want Anet to realize that they have still yet to deliver really compelling events.

Also I think a new zone would be great. Another zone thats low level so that new players can participate in it with no hearts so that no one will care if it gets taken over.

I have to disagree. I enjoy this series of full map invasions, and considering this is the first time they’ve attempted something like this, having a reward win OR fail gives me incentive to get in there and try anyways. The amount of coordination needed to try and get the whole map organized is a little ridiculous. Never mind you have the first timers who don’t know what they’re doing period or the greedy/just in it for the farm ones who insist on sticking around instead of trying to get the portals down, if I wasn’t guaranteed something if we failed to summon and beat Scarlet, I’d almost never show up for the invasion in the first place.

@NightShadow were not suggesting they remove the rewards for failing. We are asking for consequences. Like a counter that counts how many times youre server has failed and if it gets too high then some outcome thats negative for the world but positive for the players gets produced. You can have that and still reward the players who show up to the invasion and try to thwart it but fail.

Its great that you enjoy the new content, I do as well, but please understand that it could be so much more.

Id like to post a link to a thread on reddit to show that there are more people in this vocal minority than SirMoogie and me:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1ksxhr/negative_consequences_for_failing_an_invasion/

By the way this thread was not started by me.

Great OP. +1’ed

That dynamic event is more complicated, and probably took more man-hours to put together than these simple spawn events, not counting the new enemies that were created for these. They need to take more time to flesh out their content.

AAA gameplay requires AAA investment in production.