Farmers and Moral Superiority

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

A lot of threads recently in both the Queen’s speech update as well as the gauntlet update have been complaints about farmers. Basically:

1. Farmers spoil the fun for others!
2. Farmers spoil the economy!
3. You should play for fun not gold! (As if getting gold isn’t fun)
4. Farmers force others to farm since they’ll be left out
5. Insert favorite complaints here….

What people don’t seem to understand is that for a lot of us, getting gold, gearing up, getting minipets, buying skins and armor to show off etc is fun. It’s why we play the game. For some people fun can be running around with friends. Others (like me) don’t care about friends and exploring etc, but just want to get better gear, weapons and show off.

Different ways to play the game.

Also, asking farmers to forbear from farming because it “spoils the economy” is absurd. That’s like the government offering you a tax break which you deliberately don’t take advantage of because “it’s not good for the economy”. Please understand that a basic premise in economics is that everyone acts in their own self interest. It’s ridiculous to exhort others to hold off getting easy gold (like in the gauntlet). As long as it’s not an exploit that the developers didn’t intend.

Finally, farming is not an exploit. To take the latest example, Anet was fully aware of gauntlet farming and took their own sweet time in making changes. It’s not like a programming bug or something that was clearly not intended by the developers.

Farming is a logical respectable activity. It’s fully as important as the righteous people running around claiming that they play “just for fun”. Good for you. And some people play to farm.

Thank you.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: knbBlackTemplar.3059

knbBlackTemplar.3059

A-net on every patch example:
1. Nerf previous farm exploit (cof p1)
2. Add new farm exploit (pavilion + gauntlet)
3. Nerf it too (no champions in pavilion except bosses, less money from gauntlet)
4. Add new again (invasions with ton of champions)
5. And nerf will come soon.

80’s: Sylvari Necromancer (Main). Human: Thief, Warrior (PvP Main), Engineer. Charr Guardian

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ursan.7846

Ursan.7846

When farmers create a ton of gold and inject it into the economy, it causes inflation and screws over the rest of the playerbase which doesn’t farm.

Whether this effect is substantial or not is unclear. However, there is absolutely no denying that farming (specifically, the type that creates gold, i.e Deadeye and CoF) has the potential to harm the economy.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

When farmers create a ton of gold and inject it into the economy, it causes inflation and screws over the rest of the playerbase which doesn’t farm.

Whether this effect is substantial or not is unclear. However, there is absolutely no denying that farming (specifically, the type that creates gold, i.e Deadeye and CoF) has the potential to harm the economy.

I’m saying that’s Anet’s problem. It’s unreasonable to ask people to give up benefiting themselves because “it’s bad for the economy”. See tax break example in my original post.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Kronus.6048

Kronus.6048

When farmers create a ton of gold and inject it into the economy, it causes inflation and screws over the rest of the playerbase which doesn’t farm.

Whether this effect is substantial or not is unclear. However, there is absolutely no denying that farming (specifically, the type that creates gold, i.e Deadeye and CoF) has the potential to harm the economy.

lol if you want to talk about who screws the rest of the playerbase, check the big TP traders, since they touch the economy way more than farmers

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ursan.7846

Ursan.7846

I’m saying that’s Anet’s problem. It’s unreasonable to ask people to give up benefiting themselves because “it’s bad for the economy”. See tax break example in my original post.

Of course it’s Anet’s problem in handing out too many ways for users to print money (your tax break example is bad. A tax break is akin to reducing gold sinks, but what we’re seeing is a dramatic increase in gold faucets). Which is why they’re completely justified in nerfing these farms.

lol if you want to talk about who screws the rest of the playerbase, check the big TP traders, since they touch the economy way more than farmers

TP traders don’t actually introduce gold into the economy.

(edited by Ursan.7846)

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: atheria.2837

atheria.2837

A-net on every patch example:
1. Nerf previous farm exploit (cof p1)
2. Add new farm exploit (pavilion + gauntlet)
3. Nerf it too (no champions in pavilion except bosses, less money from gauntlet)
4. Add new again (invasions with ton of champions)
5. And nerf will come soon.

Can’t have the good stuff hitting the markets now or gasp people actually keeping and USING the items – for SHAME!

I agree with you totally – the nerf-fest needs to stop.

Not keeping all IT jobs here is a major reason IT is so bad HERE. 33y IT 10y IT Security

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

I’m saying that’s Anet’s problem. It’s unreasonable to ask people to give up benefiting themselves because “it’s bad for the economy”. See tax break example in my original post.

Of course it’s Anet’s problem in handing out too many ways for users to print money (your tax break example is bad.). Which is why they’re completely justified in nerfing these farms.

lol if you want to talk about who screws the rest of the playerbase, check the big TP traders, since they touch the economy way more than farmers

TP traders don’t actually introduce gold into the economy.

They don’t add items either. Some farmers do and some don’t, depends on what they are actually doing. Problem with trying to paint everyone with the same brush.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ronah.2869

Ronah.2869

The higher the prices the more time to farm needed so the shortcut to have the desired “shiny” faster is to buy gems with real cash and convert them to gold. A-net has a Win from the inflation not a drop down.
The more gold you need to buy 100 gems, the less people will use the game money instead of real money.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Vol.5241

Vol.5241

A lot of people on the forums equate farmers with hackers, gold buyers, botters and exploiters. Pretty much the bottom feeders of MMO social classes who should be banned.

Which is funny because all farmers do is:
-play a lot
-find the most rewarding thing in game and do it repeatedly

I don’t know at what point they decided to give us a bad rep, but farming in MMO is just as predictable as bots, RPers and bugs.

And you can also make the argument that it is good for the economy. Farming materials, for example, can keep prices low for everyone and make it easily accessible and cheap. Material farmers also keep the velocity of transactions high, and they do a huge part in acting as supporters of gold sinks.

And while farming gold can keep prices high for everyone, it also allows casual players to get loot and sell them at a high.

I just suspect that the same people who paint farmers as baddies are the same people who in real life complain about rich people and how X profession is making X dollars in salary. It pretty much amounts to jealousy that the farmers are rich and they are not.

Similarly in real life, no one seems to appreciate CEOs or bankers, or sports players who make millions, as if they should either be paid similarly to lower-rung employees, or those lower-rung employees deserve to be paid thousands/millions as well.

[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ursan.7846

Ursan.7846

They don’t add items either. Some farmers do and some don’t, depends on what they are actually doing. Problem with trying to paint everyone with the same brush.

So you agree with what I’m saying then. They neither add items nor gold to the economy. That’s why their impact on the economy is minimal compare to a farmer which actually produces items and gold.

But any source of gold creation (i.e. Deadwell, CoF) must be carefully regulated, lest inflation become too severe (and we already see its effects. Look at ecto/dye/gem prices the past few weeks.)

I’m not painting farmers in a negative moral light, per se. It’s totally understandable why they’d do what they do. However, Anet is completely justified in nerfing some of these gold faucets because they can have negative impacts on the economy.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Aerlen.5326

Aerlen.5326

When farmers create a ton of gold and inject it into the economy, it causes inflation and screws over the rest of the playerbase which doesn’t farm.

Whether this effect is substantial or not is unclear. However, there is absolutely no denying that farming (specifically, the type that creates gold, i.e Deadeye and CoF) has the potential to harm the economy.

Which is why I now have to farm. Deadeye should have been nerfed within days. Now, if I want to keep up, guess what I have to do?

~Tarnished Coast Pride~

Forever known as “that slow guardian who can’t jump worth crap”.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: DeadlySynz.3471

DeadlySynz.3471

Last night I ended up farming 2 events (only because most people seemed to be doing that so I was stuck doing it as well to get anywhere)

Both farmed events yielded me less bags, loot, and gold overall. I get more doing the actual event itself. Farming, I think got me an average of 2-3 gold while completing the actual event usually nets me 5-6 gold.

Why exactly are people farming anyway? From what I see, it seems to be 50% less effective than doing the event itself..

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ursan.7846

Ursan.7846

Which is why I now have to farm. Deadeye should have been nerfed within days. Now, if I want to keep up, guess what I have to do?

Exactly. And this is why nerfs are needed and justified. It can’t be denied that any farm that creates gold has a potential to negatively impact the game.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Vol.5241

Vol.5241

Last night I ended up farming 2 events (only because most people seemed to be doing that so I was stuck doing it as well to get anywhere)

Both farmed events yielded me less bags, loot, and gold overall. I get more doing the actual event itself. Farming, I think got me an average of 2-3 gold while completing the actual event usually nets me 5-6 gold.

Why exactly are people farming anyway? From what I see, it seems to be 50% less effective than doing the event itself..

You are probably not tagging enough champs.

Right now the reward difference between failing 3rd phase and winning is far less than farming one entire scaled Aetherblade event.

[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: neon.4863

neon.4863

This particular farm doesn’t actually create gold at a rate as substantial as the gauntlet farming did – farming the gauntlet made straight silver, not equipment/mats, and up to 30s in a minute. Here what you have is a smaller amount of money made and a much more significant amount of items made. Sure, you can sell those on the TP for gold, but that gold comes from other players, not thin air like the gold made from the gauntlet farm did. So instead of cause inflation and nothing else, it increases the supply of certain items, which actually reduces their prices.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Vespertilionidae.5018

Vespertilionidae.5018

The way things are set up the biggest rewards require farming. One must farm to create a legendary for example, either farm the gold to buy a precursor and mats or farm those mats directly. A long, personal story driven process to create a legendary, or slightly below it but fancy weapon, would be most welcome by me but that is not an option. The only option is to farm, farm, farm. So why begrudge those who are doing precisely what the game pushes them to do in order to attain the higher rewards?

Successful opportunism is often indistinguishable from a masterful plan.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

Ursan is correct with regards to the economy. I shared that concern as well, even though I was one of the farmers making money. There’s a balance that needs to be there so that Gold Output and Gold Sinks keep Inflation in check. The last few weeks of updates has really tipped the scale of Gold Output to levels not seen before. Let’s not forget that Kiel’s victory caused a reduction in WP Gold Sinks, thus contributing a tiny tiny bit to the equation (my little Evon plug for the day).

But going to the core of the argument of what’s “fun”. Each player sees this differently. PvE has farmers and even completers. PvP has WvW PPT players and GvG enthusiasts. To the extreme of one side, they like to throw words like “hacker” or “exploiter” at the other, in an attempt to justify their positions. I feel I need to point out that Guild Wars 2 is a game for different types of people.

Going futher, as others in this thread have posted, it’s not an “exploit” to farm. In another thread, one poster kept equating us farmers to players banned for the Snowflake exploit. This is an unfair comparison, because on one hand, players did something that Anet didn’t intent (Snowflake crafts producing more output than what should have been). On the other hand, players farming or killing only Champions are doing exactly what those enemies were put out for, to be killed.

To clarify, Invasion events have a purpose – to be cleared. As with all events and missions, that’s is indeed Anet’s intended goal for players. However, not all players on the map are killing mobs and Champions for the event itself. If the farming players’ goal is to just farm, they are still playing within the game’s overall intended design – to have fun. Just because they’re doing it in opposite of another player’s goal, does not equal “exploit”.

This is an MMO. There isn’t one single way to play it. Players have a choice as to what they want to do for fun. I’m sure Anet will never put an event in the open world that forces players to either complete it or leave the map.

In GW2, Trading Post plays you!

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Kronus.6048

Kronus.6048

The way things are set up the biggest rewards require farming. One must farm to create a legendary for example, either farm the gold to buy a precursor and mats or farm those mats directly. A long, personal story driven process to create a legendary, or slightly below it but fancy weapon, would be most welcome by me but that is not an option. The only option is to farm, farm, farm. So why begrudge those who are doing precisely what the game pushes them to do in order to attain the higher rewards?

because then TP traders won’t be able to regulate 100% of the products and their profits go down. Who do you think drive prices high the most?TP traders. People complain about inflation and how farmers get ’’legendaries’’ with no skill involved. Guess what, a farmer never does the same amount of gold as a TP trader. Those guys make 10% of their total gold per day and it just adds up more and more. Compare an average player to an average trader. Unless the average player has the patience of an elephant to farm the activity/farm area for several hours, the trader will make more money much easier as long as he sells low and buys high.

Btw vesp you said that the way things are set the greatest rewards require farming and that’s not true. A farmer still had to farm longer before he achieves his legendary unlike a tp trader.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

I’m saying that’s Anet’s problem. It’s unreasonable to ask people to give up benefiting themselves because “it’s bad for the economy”. See tax break example in my original post.

Of course it’s Anet’s problem in handing out too many ways for users to print money (your tax break example is bad. A tax break is akin to reducing gold sinks, but what we’re seeing is a dramatic increase in gold faucets). Which is why they’re completely justified in nerfing these farms.

lol if you want to talk about who screws the rest of the playerbase, check the big TP traders, since they touch the economy way more than farmers

TP traders don’t actually introduce gold into the economy.

1. I don’t have a problem with Anet nerfing. I have a problem with blaming farmers for farming

2. Whether or not the tax break injects money or not is irrelevant. The point is that we’re being offered a benefit. And we’re making use of it. To blame farmers or to imply that they’re not doing the right thing by farming is absurd.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ursan.7846

Ursan.7846

Who do you think drive prices high the most?TP traders.

TP flippers don’t drive prices up or down, only to the equilibrium (between buy/sell orders.)

2. Whether or not the tax break injects money or not is irrelevant. The point is that we’re being offered a benefit. And we’re making use of it. To blame farmers or to imply that they’re not doing the right thing by farming is absurd.

It’s relevant because a tax break doesn’t negatively impact the economy (in terms of currency creation, anyways) whereas allowing players to print money does.

(edited by Ursan.7846)

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Vespertilionidae.5018

Vespertilionidae.5018

If by tp trading you mean market manipulation, well I just don’t see that as an aspect of the game most are intended to play on the level of wall street mogul. Yes it exists and isn’t discouraged but I didn’t buy this game to watch a market and micromanage my investments in that market. To me that just doesn’t seem fun when I could be running about killing enemies in PvE, W3 or spvp.

Investments which I couldn’t make if I didn’t farm the initial gold to make those investments with. So two options, farming and trading but my real point is that a third option not tied into the economy for a personal (account bound) high end reward would be welcomed by some. I don’t begrudge farmers or traders their profits for those endeavors, I’d just simply like more options to exist. If they actually had some kind of story connection to my characters, I’d consider that a genuinely appropriate aspect to a supposedly story driven MMO.

Successful opportunism is often indistinguishable from a masterful plan.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

If by tp trading you mean market manipulation, well I just don’t see that as an aspect of the game most are intended to play on the level of wall street mogul. Yes it exists and isn’t discouraged but I didn’t buy this game to watch a market and micromanage my investments in that market. To me that just doesn’t seem fun when I could be running about killing enemies in PvE, W3 or spvp.

Investments which I couldn’t make if I didn’t farm the initial gold to make those investments with. So two options, farming and trading but my real point is that a third option not tied into the economy for a personal (account bound) high end reward would be welcomed by some. I don’t begrudge farmers or traders their profits for those endeavors, I’d just simply like more options to exist. If they actually had some kind of story connection to my characters, I’d consider that a genuinely appropriate aspect to a supposedly story driven MMO.

TP trading, as in Buying and Selling, is far different from “Market Manipulation”.

In GW2, Trading Post plays you!

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

Who do you think drive prices high the most?TP traders.

TP flippers don’t drive prices up or down, only to the equilibrium (between buy/sell orders.)

2. Whether or not the tax break injects money or not is irrelevant. The point is that we’re being offered a benefit. And we’re making use of it. To blame farmers or to imply that they’re not doing the right thing by farming is absurd.

It’s relevant because a tax break doesn’t negatively impact the economy (in terms of currency creation, anyways) whereas allowing players to print money does.

From the perspective of a farmer how does it matter if something is hurting the economy or not? If you don’t like the example of a tax break, take any governmental measure that benefits someone but can be bad for the economy. Are the beneficiaries supposed to just throw their hands up and say “I won’t make use of this awesome benefit because it’s not good for the country”?

In economics, every person acts for their own benefit. Not the “greater good”. Expecting otherwise is just setting yourself up for failure and it’s stupid.

(edited by bhagwad.4281)

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Kronus.6048

Kronus.6048

If by tp trading you mean market manipulation, well I just don’t see that as an aspect of the game most are intended to play on the level of wall street mogul. Yes it exists and isn’t discouraged but I didn’t buy this game to watch a market and micromanage my investments in that market. To me that just doesn’t seem fun when I could be running about killing enemies in PvE, W3 or spvp.

Investments which I couldn’t make if I didn’t farm the initial gold to make those investments with. So two options, farming and trading but my real point is that a third option not tied into the economy for a personal (account bound) high end reward would be welcomed by some. I don’t begrudge farmers or traders their profits for those endeavors, I’d just simply like more options to exist. If they actually had some kind of story connection to my characters, I’d consider that a genuinely appropriate aspect to a supposedly story driven MMO.

TP trading, as in Buying and Selling, is far different from “Market Manipulation”.

lol because buying lots of products and keeping them in order to inflate the price is not manipulation or slowly raising the max price of the item .

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Ursan.7846

Ursan.7846

From the perspective of a farmer how does it matter if something is hurting the economy or not? If you don’t like the example of a tax break, take any governmental measure that benefits someone but can be bad for the economy. Are the beneficiaries supposed to just throw their hands up and say “I won’t make use of this awesome benefit because it’s not good for the country”?

In economics, every person acts for their own benefit. Not the “greater good”. Expecting otherwise is just setting yourself up for failure and it’s stupid.

I’m kinda confused at what you’re trying to say. Read my posts, I don’t fault farmers for taking advantage. However, any “farming” that produces gold has potential to damage the economy, which is why these forms of farms must be carefully regulated.

lol because buying lots of products and keeping them in order to inflate the price is not manipulation or slowly raising the max price of the item .

Will buying up lots of products increase prices a bit? Probably. Is the price increase due to your actions significant enough to overcome the 15% tax? Definitely not. The economy is huge. If you believe your individual action can create a significant enough effect in order to earn guaranteed profit, you’re delusional.

(edited by Ursan.7846)

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: DeadlySynz.3471

DeadlySynz.3471

Last night I ended up farming 2 events (only because most people seemed to be doing that so I was stuck doing it as well to get anywhere)

Both farmed events yielded me less bags, loot, and gold overall. I get more doing the actual event itself. Farming, I think got me an average of 2-3 gold while completing the actual event usually nets me 5-6 gold.

Why exactly are people farming anyway? From what I see, it seems to be 50% less effective than doing the event itself..

You are probably not tagging enough champs.

Right now the reward difference between failing 3rd phase and winning is far less than farming one entire scaled Aetherblade event.

Perhaps, but farming yielded I believe somewhere around 40-50 bags. The event itself I usually get closer to 60 and walk away with more gold. Not sure how I can tag more champs outside being able to freely throughout waypoints while in combat or having them uncontested.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Duke Blackrose.4981

Duke Blackrose.4981

It’s not about the existence of farming – it never was. It’s about the harassment, inconvenience and/or fail states produced by most of the recent farm spots.

1) Deadeye farming (aside from the obvious economic inflation) inconvenienced others who were attempting to do the Gauntlet by increasing queue times and adding players who often refused to res others. A few Deadeye farmers were even noted for trolling and arena claiming.

2) Shank Anchorage farm encouraged failing of an event to make money. The farmers often verbally harassed (or sent outright death threats) to people attempting to legitimately complete the event.

3) Queensdale champ farm and other similar rotations frequently spawns verbal harassment and player abuse towards players who kill champs out of rotation. Sure, some players screw with the zerg just to be kittens, but most of the victims of harassment were simply trying to play the game and don’t deserve said harassment.

4) The new champ farm in invasions decreases the likelihood of winning the invasion (especially on overflows). Fortunately, this makes little difference in terms of end rewards.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

From the perspective of a farmer how does it matter if something is hurting the economy or not? If you don’t like the example of a tax break, take any governmental measure that benefits someone but can be bad for the economy. Are the beneficiaries supposed to just throw their hands up and say “I won’t make use of this awesome benefit because it’s not good for the country”?

In economics, every person acts for their own benefit. Not the “greater good”. Expecting otherwise is just setting yourself up for failure and it’s stupid.

I’m kinda confused at what you’re trying to say. Read my posts, I don’t fault farmers for taking advantage. However, any “farming” that produces gold has potential to damage the economy, which is why these forms of farms must be carefully regulated.

lol because buying lots of products and keeping them in order to inflate the price is not manipulation or slowly raising the max price of the item .

Will buying up lots of products increase prices a bit? Probably. Is the price increase due to your actions significant enough to overcome the 15% tax? Definitely not.

I’ve never had a problem with Anet nerfing things. I haven’t mentioned that in my post at all. In fact, I support their decisions to cut off gold faucets.

Having said that I will farm the hell out of any scenario that gets me the most gold for minimum activity and that’s what people should expect. Because it’s reasonable to think that people will do this. My problem with those blaming farmers for farming.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Vol.5241

Vol.5241

Last night I ended up farming 2 events (only because most people seemed to be doing that so I was stuck doing it as well to get anywhere)

Both farmed events yielded me less bags, loot, and gold overall. I get more doing the actual event itself. Farming, I think got me an average of 2-3 gold while completing the actual event usually nets me 5-6 gold.

Why exactly are people farming anyway? From what I see, it seems to be 50% less effective than doing the event itself..

You are probably not tagging enough champs.

Right now the reward difference between failing 3rd phase and winning is far less than farming one entire scaled Aetherblade event.

Perhaps, but farming yielded I believe somewhere around 40-50 bags. The event itself I usually get closer to 60 and walk away with more gold. Not sure how I can tag more champs outside being able to freely throughout waypoints while in combat or having them uncontested.

I can assure you that you make more money from champion boxes, not loot bags, considering that loot bags are tied with map lvl.

Champion boxes give at least 6s per box in pure currency. I get at least 30 per hour. That’s 1.8 G.

And then you can throw in all your blue/greens/mats/bags

[Permabanned on Forums]
[Currently Inactive, Playing BF4]
Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Smooth Penguin.5294

Smooth Penguin.5294

Champion boxes also contain Rare and Exotic gear. I lost count of how many Arc longbows I’ve gotten in the past few days…

In GW2, Trading Post plays you!

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Khisanth.2948

Khisanth.2948

The higher the prices the more time to farm needed so the shortcut to have the desired “shiny” faster is to buy gems with real cash and convert them to gold. A-net has a Win from the inflation not a drop down.
The more gold you need to buy 100 gems, the less people will use the game money instead of real money.

I am not so sure about that.
I used to look at the gem store items and exchange rate then go “UGH 20g for that!
Now that I have a bit more gold it is more like “HMM only 20g for that maybe I’ll buy it” even though 1g gets me less gems than before. If I had more gold that “maybe” goes away too. Spending more for less somehow feels okay due to having more gold.

Champion boxes also contain Rare and Exotic gear. I lost count of how many Arc longbows I’ve gotten in the past few days…

With a drop rate that seems much higher than farming with 300% MF.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: neon.4863

neon.4863

I was going to comment on your points about farming, but—

Seriously? You’re comparing people with a lot of free time who spend it grinding for stuff in an MMO to exploited, underpaid workers? You’re implying those workers are actually completely devoid of skill rather than they do it because they, you know, have no better option? You’re actually saying those workers are underpaid because they lack skill rather than because the system blatantly exploits them? And they don’t deserve better salaries?

Seriously?

I’m sorry, I don’t see how someone who is actually saying people in real life who have to endure subpar working conditions don’t deserve better pay has any moral ground to talk about people farming in a game.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

Seriously?

No. But of course I expected reductio ad absurdum to be used as a “counter argument” as quickly as ad hominem.

Look around you. A lot of people unfortunatelly have no choice but to do something they don’t enjoy for a living. The guy who’s manning that gas station accross the street probably didn’t dream about doing that when he was a kid. Those Chinese factory workers very unfortunatelly do not have a choice – whatever abilities they have are wasted in a job that requires no skill.

Do you know what’s even worse?

When people choose to live like that. When, in a mockery of all those unfortunate people who due to circunstance cannot work on something that would make them happy, others decide to waste their time doing an activity they don’t even enjoy. Even worse, to live like that when playing a game.

That’s what a farmer is.

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Seriously, you guys need to be a little more proactive with your Anti-Farming strategy. The Farmer’s don’t care about the Forums, nor the neverending patches Anet implements to try to get rid of them.

For example, When the Warriors started whining and Moaning and giving out threats in Queen’s Gauntlet, I removed all gambits and started taking as long as possible on fights, seriously ticking them off, and when I died and no one would revive me, I would do the same, and when they all moved to a new area, guess what? I moved with them. They want to cry, moan, Grief and Troll me, I’ll Grief and Troll them back, 10x as hard,…without the death threats! …I did the same thing on Eve online for years, which is 100% allowed in that game, and unless I am being just plain nasty to other people (like lots of cursing and death threats), its generally allowed in this game as well.

A few other things….

You guys might try to make the point that Farming isn’t fun and it ruins games, you need to consider that not all people really think or care the same way as you do! The Fact that Legendary weapons exist in this game means that Anet 100% supports Farming, and Guild Wars 2 is not the first game to have done that (Just look at Eve for probably the greatest example)

You Might think that Farming Increases the price of Items Beyond Inflation, but that’s not true either. Look at the price of many exotics right now and many of them are 3 gold or less, roughly 25% of them are 2 gold or less. Some you can get for less than a gold right now! Which anyone can afford, and its all thanks to those farmers you hate so much! Most Rares cost less than 30 silver, many less than 20! You have Farmers to Thank for that, especially since back in January, most costed upwards of a Gold, and most Exotics costed upwards of 3 to 5 gold (only a few are that expensive now).

…So you can’t get an Infinite Light because it costs 1000 gold. Well, you need to stop crying and get it the same way those farmers did! They wasted the time to get all the materials which takes many hours, and quite a bit of gold no matter what, not you, which is why it costs so much,….to you, not them since they actually went through the touble of getting one.

Oh yeah, and this:::
Seeking fun experiences is superior to seeking insufferable experiences in exchange for a reward.
In an Idealistic, Theocratic Utopia, that might be true, but guess what? This isn’t, and neither is Guildwars 2! In real life, I turn wrenches and solder components into circuit boards, day, by day, endlessly. I only had the job for a year, and I think it is the most repetitive job some sadistic higher power could have ever thought of for humans to do. Some might call it work (because it is!), But, no matter how repetitive it gets, I still call it a fun thing to do. I like doing it, and its what I do for a living. I had oppurtunities in the last year to get jobs with more variety, but I never took them. Most Farmers in video games aren’t much different.

And just like the real world, Guild Wars 2 gave everyone an equal oppurtunity to make it big, in Guild Wars 2’s case, to get rich off of fake currency when it was released last year. Some people took advantage of it, because it was fun for them. That does not mean it has to be for you!

Do I support Farming? No. Not really. Seeing People stomp all over other People they see as ‘lower class’ ticks me off, even in a digital world. Watching people Grief endlessly in a game world because someone did something they don’t like really ticks me off. But, guess what, Watching people Grief endlessly on the forums for the exact opposite reason also Ticks me off!

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Talonblaze.3175

Talonblaze.3175

Farming happens. Pretty much everywhere you go in a game its there if there’s a way to obtain something. Regardless of its value.
In some cases, I don’t find this to be too big of a problem. As it usually affects the populace little. More often than not, its seen as being skill-less and laughable to do so. As they aren’t earned properly.

The thing about farmers in this game is that, indeed, there is little to no skill involved. The steps goes as follows:
1- A single (or small group) of people figure out how to abuse a broken mechanic in the game not intended with a stat/weapon/tactic that will yield them great rewards and/or in little time.
2- They post it online for others to see and share the success for benefit.
3-The majority of farmers are merely mimics, bearing no skill of their own as they are just replicating the already done steps taken. They rinse and repeat. There is little to no effort on their part.
The only ones that could say they had any skill at all were the ones who devised the method to begin with.
The rest are no better than the bots running around the game near launch. (Except they were at least more efficient.) And oh boy, the crying when those bots were around. Even the ’farmer’s were complaining. lol.

However, despite the other downsides that farming can bring, the -real- issue is not the people who do so, but their attitudes. Which many quite disgust me for. The Queen’s Gauntlet was the biggest thing that showed me the black side of that coin with how aggressive they were just to abuse a broken mechanic for reward. And to me, thats not cool. Any farmer that did so deserves any blacklash they might get. The rest are cool with me.

Duty is heavier than death.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Erasculio.2914

Erasculio.2914

You guys might try to make the point that Farming isn’t fun and it ruins games, you need to consider that not all people really think or care the same way as you do!

Irrelevant. You can think the sky is yellow instead of thinking it’s blue, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sky is blue. We have interviews from Blizzard in the first days of WoW claiming how they were surprised that players would often flock to the grind-like and fast way to achieve something, instead of seeking the fun way… And we can clearly see how this realization has shaped MMORPGs for a very long time now. Farmers allow MMORPGs to be mediocre games. You can believe otherwise, but it wouldn’t become any less true.

Some you can get for less than a gold right now! Which anyone can afford, and its all thanks to those farmers you hate so much!

Wrong.

Imagine there were no farmers. Imagine everyone had the same amount of gold. We would have no absurdly priced item, simple because no one would be able to afford it. Wouldn’t make much of a difference if supply were a bit smaller, because trying to sell something for a small fortune would be more expensive than anyone in the game could buy.

In an Idealistic, Theocratic Utopia, that might be true, but guess what? This isn’t, and neither is Guildwars 2!

There is no reason it could not be, other than how it would kitten off the players who love, as the OP put it, “getting gold, gearing up, getting minipets, buying skins and armor to show off”. Who happen to be the same players who want everyone else to not get gold, not gear up, not get minipets, not buy skins or armor, so they can “show off”. Are you sure you want to prioritize those players over everyone else?

“I think that players are starting to mature past the point of wanting to be on that
treadmill, of being in that obvious pattern of every time I catch up you are going to
put another carrot in front of me” – Mike O’Brien right before Ascended weapons

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: neon.4863

neon.4863

No. But of course I expected reductio ad absurdum to be used as a “counter argument” as quickly as ad hominem.

Look around you. A lot of people unfortunatelly have no choice but to do something they don’t enjoy for a living. The guy who’s manning that gas station accross the street probably didn’t dream about doing that when he was a kid. Those Chinese factory workers very unfortunatelly do not have a choice – whatever abilities they have are wasted in a job that requires no skill.

Do you know what’s even worse?

When people choose to live like that. When, in a mockery of all those unfortunate people who due to circunstance cannot work on something that would make them happy, others decide to waste their time doing an activity they don’t even enjoy. Even worse, to live like that when playing a game.

That’s what a farmer is.

Yes, a farmer in a game is someone who chooses to do a repetitive, mindless activity. Some of them don’t even enjoy it. They do it because the rewards in doing so are significant.

Which is nothing like a Chinese factory worker, who does a repetitive, mindless activity they don’t enjoy, yes, but neither has an actual choice, nor gets a significant reward for it.

Yet you compared the two. You said the job of Chinese factory workers is very easy. In saying other careers are comparative to skilled players, you implied that both farmers and Chinese factory workers do not, in fact, have skill. You posed the question of who has a better salary, while completely ignoring the different contexts in which factory workers and people like Steve Jobs get paid (cute, given that the Apple factory in China has been called out for its horrific work conditions). And then you made the statement that “farmers want the Chinese workers to have a better salary”. Your post originally followed with “in the end, they don’t deserve it” (it did not say “the farmers don’t deserve it”).

You’re the one who needs to look around you, mate.

Reductio ad absurdum is easy when your comparison is, in fact, absurd. Not really bothering with your other points, though.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Coldin.2840

Coldin.2840

It’s kind of funny actually.

Both sides are really calling the other selfish, while not thinking they are being selfish themselves.

Coldin – Thief – Sanctum of Rall

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

Just as a quick follow up to help you understand the scientific methodology, here’s a one minute video explaining what the null hypothesis means and where the burden of evidence lies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TfNFL_xEmQ

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Chrispy.5641

Chrispy.5641

Irrelevant. You can think the sky is yellow instead of thinking it’s blue, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sky is blue. We have interviews from Blizzard in the first days of WoW claiming how they were surprised that players would often flock to the grind-like and fast way to achieve something, instead of seeking the fun way… And we can clearly see how this realization has shaped MMORPGs for a very long time now. Farmers allow MMORPGs to be mediocre games. You can believe otherwise, but it wouldn’t become any less true.

And you just answered your own point. If you think the Sky is blue, but someone tries to say its yellow, what changes the fact that the other person still thinks it yellow?…NOTHING!

If You think Farming is repetitive and unfun, but someone else thinks it is fun, What changes his opinion? Certainly not yours!

If I and many other players say that Guild Wars 2 is Great, but you think its mediocre, Nothing I say is going to change your opinion. So obviously Guild Wars 2 is a mediocre game, and you should stop playing it if thats what you think.

Wrong.

Imagine there were no farmers. Imagine everyone had the same amount of gold. We would have no absurdly priced item, simple because no one would be able to afford it. Wouldn’t make much of a difference if supply were a bit smaller, because trying to sell something for a small fortune would be more expensive than anyone in the game could buy.

There are games out like that already. Its called,…a Single Player Game! If you don’t like interacting with other players, (who I should remind you, are all human, and all are always looking for he next way to make a buck, even if its a digital buck) then go play a single player game where you will never have to worry about it!

There is no reason it could not be, other than how it would kitten off the players who love, as the OP put it, “getting gold, gearing up, getting minipets, buying skins and armor to show off”. Who happen to be the same players who want everyone else to not get gold, not gear up, not get minipets, not buy skins or armor, so they can “show off”. Are you sure you want to prioritize those players over everyone else?

Well, I have the perfect game world for you. Its called Call of Duty, where everyone has the same number of bullets and it takes raw skill to make it to the top,…or do people gripe about the people with too much skill? (….yeah, actually they do!)

Guildwars 2, if it were made into a perfect society like you want, where everyone is equal, everyone has the same amount of gold,…It,…Will,….FAIL. One person is going to take advantage of another, and get his gold, and the whole chain will keep going until one man has all the power and gold, and everyone else are bowing at his footsteps like the ants they let themselves become. Its what happened to Russia. It happened to Germany. It happened to Rome….oddly enough, once people stood up and said “Hey, Don’t Tread on Me!” is when these societies crumble and are replaced with new ones.

The only way to fix a society like this (including in a videogame) is to take away everything, Force everyone to live in a wall, and cut off all human interaction. No one can buy stuff from another person or player, no one can give stuff to another person or player, because that itself would create an imbalance. The only thing people are allowed to do with each other in a world like this, is simple look at each other. They aren;t allowed to speak or make faces, because that would create an imbalance. Everyone gets the same weapon and the same armor, and are the same race and gender, regardless of what they want to be. That’s a dull game, and that’s a game I don’t want to play!

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Kronus.6048

Kronus.6048

Irrelevant. You can think the sky is yellow instead of thinking it’s blue, but it doesn’t change the fact that the sky is blue. We have interviews from Blizzard in the first days of WoW claiming how they were surprised that players would often flock to the grind-like and fast way to achieve something, instead of seeking the fun way… And we can clearly see how this realization has shaped MMORPGs for a very long time now. Farmers allow MMORPGs to be mediocre games. You can believe otherwise, but it wouldn’t become any less true.

And you just answered your own point. If you think the Sky is blue, but someone tries to say its yellow, what changes the fact that the other person still thinks it yellow?…NOTHING!

If You think Farming is repetitive and unfun, but someone else thinks it is fun, What changes his opinion? Certainly not yours!

If I and many other players say that Guild Wars 2 is Great, but you think its mediocre, Nothing I say is going to change your opinion. So obviously Guild Wars 2 is a mediocre game, and you should stop playing it if thats what you think.

Wrong.

Imagine there were no farmers. Imagine everyone had the same amount of gold. We would have no absurdly priced item, simple because no one would be able to afford it. Wouldn’t make much of a difference if supply were a bit smaller, because trying to sell something for a small fortune would be more expensive than anyone in the game could buy.

There are games out like that already. Its called,…a Single Player Game! If you don’t like interacting with other players, (who I should remind you, are all human, and all are always looking for he next way to make a buck, even if its a digital buck) then go play a single player game where you will never have to worry about it!

There is no reason it could not be, other than how it would kitten off the players who love, as the OP put it, “getting gold, gearing up, getting minipets, buying skins and armor to show off”. Who happen to be the same players who want everyone else to not get gold, not gear up, not get minipets, not buy skins or armor, so they can “show off”. Are you sure you want to prioritize those players over everyone else?

Well, I have the perfect game world for you. Its called Call of Duty, where everyone has the same number of bullets and it takes raw skill to make it to the top,…or do people gripe about the people with too much skill? (….yeah, actually they do!)

Guildwars 2, if it were made into a perfect society like you want, where everyone is equal, everyone has the same amount of gold,…It,…Will,….FAIL. One person is going to take advantage of another, and get his gold, and the whole chain will keep going until one man has all the power and gold, and everyone else are bowing at his footsteps like the ants they let themselves become. Its what happened to Russia. It happened to Germany. It happened to Rome….oddly enough, once people stood up and said “Hey, Don’t Tread on Me!” is when these societies crumble and are replaced with new ones.

The only way to fix a society like this (including in a videogame) is to take away everything, Force everyone to live in a wall, and cut off all human interaction. No one can buy stuff from another person or player, no one can give stuff to another person or player, because that itself would create an imbalance. The only thing people are allowed to do with each other in a world like this, is simple look at each other. They aren;t allowed to speak or make faces, because that would create an imbalance. Everyone gets the same weapon and the same armor, and are the same race and gender, regardless of what they want to be. That’s a dull game, and that’s a game I don’t want to play!

actually erasculio is wrong because even if farmers never existed, only 1% of the game players will be rich and the rest would be poor because those would be TP players controlling the economy. Reminds you of real life eh?

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

The null hypothesis does not need to be proved.

In other words, you know you have no basis in which to support your opinion, so you won’t even bother trying to make arguments defending it. Trying to hide behind excuses – which, coincidently, is what exploiters have been doing this entire week – has been proved to be rather ineffective.

Lol. Either you don’t understand what it means to assume a default position in a debate and require proof to the contrary, or you’re just prevaricating to cover up.

The first is fine…it’s ok not to know something. Just ask and I’ll explain. The latter is just bad form and shows you’re stuck and are trying to get out of it.

FYI, in case you truly don’t understand, this is akin to a religious person asking someone to prove the non existence of god. Whereas the burden of evidence is on the religious person to prove his/her affirmative declaration.

Just as a quick follow up to help you understand the scientific methodology, here’s a one minute video explaining what the null hypothesis means and where the burden of evidence lies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TfNFL_xEmQ

The problem with this however, in this particular example, is that most atheists automatically assume that theirs is the null hypothesis.

Atheism is a relatively new belief. Atheism is the new thought, the challenger to the conventional understanding, not the other way around.

Any honest person will accept that the default position is one that supposes a Creator God. It falls on the atheist to prove that there is no Creator and no God.

At the risk of inciting a religious debate, I won’t go any further then to say that atheists have not achieved that goal.

It remains but an argument, an opinion. Not a matter of fact.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

The null hypothesis does not need to be proved.

In other words, you know you have no basis in which to support your opinion, so you won’t even bother trying to make arguments defending it. Trying to hide behind excuses – which, coincidently, is what exploiters have been doing this entire week – has been proved to be rather ineffective.

Lol. Either you don’t understand what it means to assume a default position in a debate and require proof to the contrary, or you’re just prevaricating to cover up.

The first is fine…it’s ok not to know something. Just ask and I’ll explain. The latter is just bad form and shows you’re stuck and are trying to get out of it.

FYI, in case you truly don’t understand, this is akin to a religious person asking someone to prove the non existence of god. Whereas the burden of evidence is on the religious person to prove his/her affirmative declaration.

Just as a quick follow up to help you understand the scientific methodology, here’s a one minute video explaining what the null hypothesis means and where the burden of evidence lies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TfNFL_xEmQ

The problem with this however, in this particular example, is that most atheists automatically assume that theirs is the null hypothesis.

Atheism is a relatively new belief. Atheism is the new thought, the challenger to the conventional understanding, not the other way around.

Any honest person will accept that the default position is one that supposes a Creator God. It falls on the atheist to prove that there is no Creator and no God.

At the risk of inciting a religious debate, I won’t go any further then to say that atheists have not achieved that goal.

It remains but an argument, an opinion. Not a matter of fact.

Every religious belief is the result of prior indoctrination/thought. No baby is born into the world with a prior understanding of either god or religion. Hence agnosticism/atheism is the null hypothesis because it is the default position to a fresh outsider.

Of course, just because something is the null hypothesis doesn’t mean it’s right. It’s just the starting position.

But let’s not get into this. My main point is that in this context, varying styles of play are all acceptable is the null hypothesis. If anyone claims otherwise (as it perfectly their right to do so), they just need to substantiate that claim and not put the burden of proof on the other person.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: boredinbc.2786

boredinbc.2786

When farmers create a ton of gold and inject it into the economy, it causes inflation and screws over the rest of the playerbase which doesn’t farm.

Whether this effect is substantial or not is unclear. However, there is absolutely no denying that farming (specifically, the type that creates gold, i.e Deadeye and CoF) has the potential to harm the economy.

In this case its intended. On the BLTP forums a week or so back John Smith made a comment about wealth distribution and the economy, stating that individual wealth is not something he worries about, he is only concerned with resource distribution in aggregate.

The point – They know precisely how much gold they want in circulation, and these events and rewards are tuned to that. I have a feeling that gold + time gated T7 mats equal a steep hill for 500 crafting.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

Every religious belief is the result of prior indoctrination/thought. No baby is born into the world with a prior understanding of either god or religion. Hence agnosticism/atheism is the null hypothesis because it is the default position to a fresh outsider.

Of course, just because something is the null hypothesis doesn’t mean it’s right. It’s just the starting position.

But let’s not get into this. My main point is that in this context, varying styles of play are all acceptable is the null hypothesis. If anyone claims otherwise (as it perfectly their right to do so), they just need to substantiate that claim and not put the burden of proof on the other person.

Your argument is akin to saying rocks are atheists because they don’t believe in anything and this is therefore the default position and the null hypothesis.

Of course they don’t. They’re rocks. They can’t. They don’t think.

If you are an atheist, you became one after considering it. You were not ‘born’ an atheist. This was not your default position.

Babies are neither capable of critical thought nor indoctrination.

People have to come of age before you can teach them anything or for them to be able to think about it for themselves what they believe.

Thinking people, the majority decide the null hypothesis, and for the longest time it’s been a religious one in every part of the world.

Atheists and other people who claim there is no God, challenge the convention and must bear the burden of proof.
_

To bring this back on topic and keep things in perspective…

Playing the game in any other way then was the intention of the creator, you must prove to the other players who may frown upon this that what you’re doing isn’t a bad thing.

Arguments can be made both ways and it’s pretty much an endless debate.

We can tango and go back and forth on this here ad nauseum, but ultimately Anet lays down the law.

Anet has a vision and they know what they want to do. That said, players do have a voice and the greater majority may well dictate the course to a certain degree.

This game was not built to be farmed. Anet didn’t sit down one day and say “Hey, let’s make GW2 the best grindy farmy kind of MMO ever!”

It was built to be played in a semi-casual kind of way. Farming is an activity people do to make money to get what they want faster then just casually playing the game.

Most people don’t care what farmers do with themselves, but if it get’s to a point where their actions can hurt the in-game economy or disrupts their personal game time (think Lyssa farm); it’s a bad thing and they do care.

Farming is kept in check by Anet, while permitted to a certain degree. Anet recognizes some players like to farm. Anet doesn’t hate farmers.

Most of their living story stuff has something nice that farmers can farm. To the point that some people are complaining!

We’ve got posts in the Queen’s Jubilee section of people complaining that they can’t do anything else except farm, because… reasons.

Or because “Anet made the Queen’s Jubilee so good that nothing else is more profitable”.

lol’…

(edited by CETheLucid.3964)

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: bhagwad.4281

bhagwad.4281

Every religious belief is the result of prior indoctrination/thought. No baby is born into the world with a prior understanding of either god or religion. Hence agnosticism/atheism is the null hypothesis because it is the default position to a fresh outsider.

Of course, just because something is the null hypothesis doesn’t mean it’s right. It’s just the starting position.

But let’s not get into this. My main point is that in this context, varying styles of play are all acceptable is the null hypothesis. If anyone claims otherwise (as it perfectly their right to do so), they just need to substantiate that claim and not put the burden of proof on the other person.

Your argument is akin to saying rocks are atheists because they don’t believe in anything and this is therefore the default position and the null hypothesis.

Of course they don’t. They’re rocks. They can’t. They don’t think.

If you are an atheist, you became one after considering it. You were not ‘born’ an atheist. This was not your default position.

Babies are neither capable of critical thought nor indoctrination.

People have to come of age before you can teach them anything or for them to be able to think about it for themselves what they believe.

Thinking people, the majority decide the null hypothesis, and for the longest time it’s been a religious one in every part of the world.

Atheists and other people who claim there is no God, challenge the convention and must bear the burden of proof.
_

To bring this back on topic and keep things in perspective…

Playing the game in any other way then was the intention of the creator, you must prove to the other players who may frown upon this that what you’re doing isn’t a bad thing.

Arguments can be made both ways and it’s pretty much an endless debate.

We can tango and go back and forth on this here ad nauseum, but ultimately Anet lays down the law.

Anet has a vision and they know what they want to do. That said, players do have a voice and the greater majority may well dictate the course to a certain degree.

This game was not built to be farmed. Anet didn’t sit down one day and say “Hey, let’s make GW2 the best grindy farmy kind of MMO ever!”

It was built to be played in a semi-casual kind of way. Farming is an activity people do to make money to get what they want faster then just casually playing the game.

Most people don’t care what farmers do with themselves, but if it get’s to a point where their actions can hurt the in-game economy or disrupts their personal game time (think Lyssa farm); it’s a bad thing and they do care.

Farming is kept in check by Anet, while permitted to a certain degree. Anet recognizes some players like to farm. Anet doesn’t hate farmers.

Most of their living story stuff has something nice that farmers can farm. To the point that some people are complaining!

We’ve got posts in the Queen’s Jubilee section of people complaining that they can’t do anything else except farm, because… reasons.

Or because “Anet made the Queen’s Jubilee so good that nothing else is more profitable”.

lol’…

This isn’t the place to bring up the atheism/god issue. Suffice to say I think agnosticism/atheism is the null hypothesis. The reasons are more appropriate for another place.

Coming to farming….if I’m not mistaken, Anet has publicly commented that farming is very much a part of their intended gameplay. Some people will farm. Others will not. Of course they’re concerned about making it too efficient. Hence the regular balancing. But that doesn’t mean they’re against farming as such.

Also, from a marketing point of view it would be MMO suicide to frown upon farming. Like it or not, a huge proportion of the player base (including myself) loves to farm, get better gear, and get rich even if it seems boring to others. The fact that so many people form large groups to farm champions means that lots of people like it.

Anet wants the game to make money and be successful. Even had they not said that they accept farming as part of their game, they would be absolutely dumb not to cater to us farmers. That’s why we play. And we form a large portion of the player base.

As long as we’re not exploiting something like a coding bug etc, farming is fine as far as Anet goes.

Here’s a threat in which an Anet employee responds and is obviously aware of the fact that people are farming the gauntlet. In fact, it seems they planned this and wanted us to farm the hell out of it. In the first reply he responds with a smiley instead of expressing disapproval.

Almost everything that happens in the game of GW2 is intended by Anet. A few specific instances like the cultural weapons gaffe and the snowflake exploit slip through their fingers. But something as big as farming as a whole? Totally intentional.

(edited by bhagwad.4281)

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: CETheLucid.3964

CETheLucid.3964

This isn’t the place to bring up the atheism/god issue. Suffice to say I think agnosticism/atheism is the null hypothesis. The reasons are more appropriate for another place.

Coming to farming….if I’m not mistaken, Anet has publicly commented that farming is very much a part of their intended gameplay. Some people will farm. Others will not. Of course they’re concerned about making it too efficient. Hence the regular balancing. But that doesn’t mean they’re against farming as such.

Also, from a marketing point of view it would be MMO suicide to frown upon farming. Like it or not, a huge proportion of the player base (including myself) loves to farm, get better gear, and get rich even if it seems boring to others. The fact that so many people form large groups to farm champions means that lots of people like it.

Anet wants the game to make money and be successful. Even had they not said that they accept farming as part of their game, they would be absolutely dumb not to cater to us farmers. That’s why we play. And we form a large portion of the player base.

As long as we’re not exploiting something like a coding bug etc, farming is fine as far as Anet goes.

Here’s a threat in which an Anet employee responds and is obviously aware of the fact that people are farming the gauntlet. In fact, it seems they planned this and wanted us to farm the hell out of it. In the first reply he responds with a smiley instead of expressing disapproval.

Almost everything that happens in the game of GW2 is intended by Anet. A few specific instances like the cultural weapons gaffe and the snowflake exploit slip through their fingers. But something as big as farming as a whole? Totally intentional.

It was your example. Suffice to say, I disagree with you.

And since the atheist side has yet to prove beyond a reasonable doubt what they claim, their thoughts are a matter of belief.

Ironically enough, much like those of faith in a Creator.

One of em’s wrong, and we’ll all eventually find out who. One side clearly has a higher stake in all of this than the other though.

I would hope civilly, both sides can agree to disagree and still be intellectually viable per the stalemate of that endeavor in the present.
_

Back to farming, I have no protest about what you said there. We agree. Yes. Anet did foresee if not outright planned for the QG to be a farmers little slice of heaven.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Shiren.9532

Shiren.9532

Most players enjoy acquiring things. New weapons, new armour etc. Acquisition is an element of MMOs. It’s incorrect to state that the people unhappy with the farming this month are people who don’t value item acquisition and don’t find it fun.

The problem arises when grind happy farmers are put into direct competition with everyone else. The vast majority of acquisition in this game is ruled by gold. Everyone is competing for the same thing. If there is a huge chunk of the player base that suddenly has access to hundreds of gold each because they are willing to subject themselves to grind, the players who don’t want to grind – who would rather explore the world, complete DEs (some of the most poorly rewarding content in the game despite the devs saying the whole game is end game – it’s not) or even run dungeons (despite the buff to gold rewards, it was trivial compared to champion loot bags and the MF buff of the Pavillion), these players are making similair money to before, but instead of competing with a handful of CoF farmers or Orr farmers pulling in average funds, suddenly a huge portion of the player base that chose to opt in to the grind are bidding for the same items.

The economy is PvP. Think of types of players as different classes. The champion zerg grind farmers are one class, the open world explorers are another class and the dungeon runners are another class. With the last patch, the PvP balance between the classes is incredibly imbalanaced to favour champion grinders. The abilities of the other players to compete with the grind happy farmers are significantly less now. As a result, people who might like to play different classes are now either forced to choose between losing or rerolling to the imbalanced class.

Ideally the game would reward all types of players equally or fairly for the kinds of content they like to play. This allows players to take part in the item acquisition part of the game without forcing them to choose between it and actually enjoying the other elements of the game. Unfortunately this last month the design has been heavily weighted towards zerg farming and repetitive grind (running the same dungeon paths over and over again hardly compares to the repetitiveness of Deadeye Dunwell or Subject 7) so much so that players are put into a position where they either participate in content they don’t like at a level they don’t want to take it to, or accept that they will be dramatically less effective in the new economy.

Farmers and Moral Superiority

in Clockwork Chaos

Posted by: Charak.9761

Charak.9761

Maybe, just Maybe… the game shouldn’t be so dependent on gold T_T.