Guild Wars 2

“But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”

Any ideas what Scarlet can (but obviously she can do nothing with game) do with sylvari and what happens with race without pale tree and court?

Gotta be honest with you… I just want to see Scarlet dead. Very dead.

Without the Pale Tree(‘s, for the sake of not considering her a unique organism) the Sylvari are probably doomed with extinction. The fact that they are still so young means we don’t really know if at some point the Sylvari themselves would produce offspring, but it is implied that they won’t.

It’s also very likely that the death of the Pale Tree would sever all remaining Sylvari from the Dream.

Mother tree cannot die. We will not allow it.

I disagree with Evans, there are more sylvari than just those from The Grove, and those sylvari do not have the dream, and they seem to be just fine, except for the one guy with amnesia who tells us of the other sylvari. I do wonder how much empathy sylvari feel towards one another, as the dream certainly enhances it.

My problem is that this revelation of sylvari having predetermined fates, I don’t like that so much, even if our characters are predetermined to be heroes.

A Massive Headache.1879:

I disagree with Evans, there are more sylvari than just those from The Grove, and those sylvari do not have the dream, and they seem to be just fine, except for the one guy with amnesia who tells us of the other sylvari. I do wonder how much empathy sylvari feel towards one another, as the dream certainly enhances it.

My problem is that this revelation of sylvari having predetermined fates, I don’t like that so much, even if our characters are predetermined to be heroes.

You disagree with me how exactly?
Also, I was avoiding spoilers, but since you opened that up for us, yes I did reference more than one ‘Pale’ tree.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

“But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”

Any ideas what Scarlet can (but obviously she can do nothing with game) do with sylvari and what happens with race without pale tree and court?

Considering that Sylvari are barren drones, and all are being grown by the Pale Tree, without the Tree they will simply die out (*). End of story.
Which gives me an idea
(goes to pack an axe and a lot of flammables)

(*)There might be other trees, but the same applies for them. Sylvari as a race simply cannot exist without their mother trees.

In theory at least. However, it could be possible that the Sylvari at some point or circumstance develop a means to procreate and make new Pale Trees. Comparable in nature to the life cycle of the jellyfish.

But we don’t know because no such thing has happened yet or is implied to happen.

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Slushey.8236:

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The Pale Tree is a champion of the Forest Elder Dragon. Ventari found the Pale Tree’s seed in a cave amongst many and raised it, leaving it behind the Ventari Tablets. Just like Glint strayed from Kralkatorrik, the Pale Tree has strayed from the Forest Elder Dragon. Scarlet probably sees that the Pale Tree is just as controlling of the Sylvari as the Forest Elder Dragon is of the Nightmare Court. Serving to serve neither lets Scarlet choose her own path.

My dear, you seem a pleasant person so I hope no lore enthusiasts come across your post

If done right she can show that Sylvari can make their own path without falling into either “Yay Mother tree” or “Evil cackling Nightmare” camps.

We are dealing with a race that, from day one, is ready to start impacting the world. There’s no childhood, there’s no growing up into adulthood and then they alter the world. There’s just pop out of the cocoon and boom population explosion if it wanted to happen.

The two things that are holding back the Sylvari are their tenants and fears. They either have to listen to Pale Tree or risk the Nightmare as if it was a religious decision.
Scarlet’s plan to reject both will throw a wrench in the Sylvari mindset, ultimately changing how they could shape the world if this works.

Atlas.9704:

If done right she can show that Sylvari can make their own path without falling into either “Yay Mother tree” or “Evil cackling Nightmare” camps.

We are dealing with a race that, from day one, is ready to start impacting the world. There’s no childhood, there’s no growing up into adulthood and then they alter the world. There’s just pop out of the cocoon and boom population explosion if it wanted to happen.

The two things that are holding back the Sylvari are their tenants and fears. They either have to listen to Pale Tree or risk the Nightmare as if it was a religious decision.
Scarlet’s plan to reject both will throw a wrench in the Sylvari mindset, ultimately changing how they could shape the world if this works.

Well, there’s also the soundless, a group of sylvari that decided to separate themselves from the pale tree and the dream but without succumbing to the nightmare (and actually, some choose to do that because they fear the nightmare that sometimes creeps its way into the dream).

http://guildwars2roleplay.wikispaces.com/A+Comprehensive+Guide+to+All+Things+Sylvari#I.%20THE%20DREAM-Who%20are%20the%20Soundless?

locoman.1974:

Well, there’s also the soundless, a group of sylvari that decided to separate themselves from the pale tree and the dream but without succumbing to the nightmare (and actually, some choose to do that because they fear the nightmare that sometimes creeps its way into the dream).

True but currently the Soundless, to me at least, are the ‘weaker’ faction within the Sylvari. They do tend to go their own way and that is admirable, but they are also constantly harassed by the Nigthmare Court more because they are that vulnerable.

At least that’s what I took away from it within my time in the Forest doing hearts and talking to the NPCs.

Scarlet’s actions could be lumped in with the Soundless, but in a more aggressive manner. If anything she could recruit them because you can fight the nightmare and go your own way without succumbing to it.

So, first Southsun, and now this. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence the last two Bads were sylvari.

Don’t fix me! I’m not broken.

I guess ANet just hated their leafy greens as a kid.

“Sylvari are not involved enough in stories…”

Lets make the bad guys stupid sylvari!

Atlas.9704:

I guess ANet just hated their leafy greens as a kid.

I’m more of a white/yellow/orange with only the cutest hint of green bits.

Ykfox.3825:

Gotta be honest with you… I just want to see Scarlet dead. Very dead.

haha, /signed. I think i’d rather have freedom FROM Sylvari. Getting sick of Anet’s focus on them & how great & powerful they are.
Norn are the second most popular race choice & yet it’s like they want them to have as little impact on the story as possible. & Brahmn? lets make him wimpy, dumb & just follow Rox around.

Frankly after having read her story I think she’s lying to herself. She’s clearly some version of Nightmare Court, what with all the spiky vines and other tells. I think she’s delusional and believes she saw the eternal alchemy when in reality she’s just corrupted. The whole genius and madness are two sides of the same coin thing.

Also I think the Nightmare Court is full of it in the first place. The tablet is never presented as some kind of rigid dogma, but as a set of guidelines. It’s not like the Grove Syl are a bunch of fundies. The Court just uses whatever it can to justify it’s cruelty.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

“But I reject that call. I reject the notion that that I must choose the Dream or be lost to Nightmare. The forces that push us this way or that can be redirected. They can be set against one another to the detriment of both, and now I know how.”

Any ideas what Scarlet can (but obviously she can do nothing with game) do with sylvari and what happens with race without pale tree and court?

It is not that they don’t have the dream, per se, but that they may have different dreams and purposes. Trahearne hints at this if you meet Malyck as part of your personal story. There are other Trees and presumably each of those Trees may see a different dream, or different part of the dream.

Sylvari think of themselves as distant cousins with a fuzzy sort of predisposition to like each other, and that’s it by word of Anet.

Sylvari don’t have predetermined fates. Those with Wyld Hunts have specific tasks they are meant to accomplish but their paths are by no means laid out for them. There are many ways to reach these goals. The Sylvari way of living is not a terribly dogmatic one and they even view the tablet as guidelines rather than hard and fast religious type rules. They have no gods or goddesses and are very clear that the Pale Tree is not a goddess.

A Massive Headache.1879:

I disagree with Evans, there are more sylvari than just those from The Grove, and those sylvari do not have the dream, and they seem to be just fine, except for the one guy with amnesia who tells us of the other sylvari. I do wonder how much empathy sylvari feel towards one another, as the dream certainly enhances it.

My problem is that this revelation of sylvari having predetermined fates, I don’t like that so much, even if our characters are predetermined to be heroes.

But why Sylvari so need this dream and connections? Other races live good without.

Atlas.9704:

If done right she can show that Sylvari can make their own path without falling into either “Yay Mother tree” or “Evil cackling Nightmare” camps.

We are dealing with a race that, from day one, is ready to start impacting the world. There’s no childhood, there’s no growing up into adulthood and then they alter the world. There’s just pop out of the cocoon and boom population explosion if it wanted to happen.

The two things that are holding back the Sylvari are their tenants and fears. They either have to listen to Pale Tree or risk the Nightmare as if it was a religious decision.
Scarlet’s plan to reject both will throw a wrench in the Sylvari mindset, ultimately changing how they could shape the world if this works.

And yet, for all her claims and protests, she acts very much like your “Evil cackling Nightmare”. Including the evil laugh part.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

But why Sylvari so need this dream and connections? Other races live good without.

Because they skip the childhood and basic learing parts of life. It is the dream that imparts that needed knowledge in them when they are grown.
And of course Sylvari as a race are not a group of Sylvari (as individuals) – you do have to include the Tree in the equation. And while Tree can exist without her Sylvari drones, the drones cannot exist without the tree.

This is nonsensical. It is part of their existence. It’s like asking why humans bother walking upright when other animals do fine on all fours.

knbBlackTemplar.3059:

But why Sylvari so need this dream and connections? Other races live good without.

Astralporing.1957:

Considering that Sylvari are barren drones, and all are being grown by the Pale Tree, without the Tree they will simply die out (*). End of story.
Which gives me an idea
(goes to pack an axe and a lot of flammables)

(*)There might be other trees, but the same applies for them. Sylvari as a race simply cannot exist without their mother trees.

I don’t think that Sylvari are drones. That’s like saying babies born in real life are drones. Yes, they don’t know anything. They were just born and are completely clueless about everything. But to be a drone they need to be controlled and not have their own thoughts or goals or desires. The sylvari have their own thoughts and goals, and they are not directly and fully controlled by the Pale Tree. Even if she does tell them what to do and affect their ways of thinking, that is more akin to brainwashing than actually completely controlling them. A lot of humans in real life are brainwashed too. But none of them are drones.

Biglulu.3928:

Astralporing.1957:

Considering that Sylvari are barren drones, and all are being grown by the Pale Tree, without the Tree they will simply die out (*). End of story.
Which gives me an idea
(goes to pack an axe and a lot of flammables)

(*)There might be other trees, but the same applies for them. Sylvari as a race simply cannot exist without their mother trees.

I don’t think that Sylvari are drones. That’s like saying babies born in real life are drones. Yes, they don’t know anything. They were just born and are completely clueless about everything. But to be a drone they need to be controlled and not have their own thoughts or goals or desires. The sylvari have their own thoughts and goals, and they are not directly and fully controlled by the Pale Tree. Even if she does tell them what to do and affect their ways of thinking, that is more akin to brainwashing than actually completely controlling them. A lot of humans in real life are brainwashed too. But none of them are drones.

They mean bee-type drones, not robots. Workers who cannot reproduce. The Queen of a hive also doesn’t “fully control” the worker bees, rather they have different castes and jobs, not very unlike how it works in human society (only we sorta get to choose our caste/job, though not completely if we’re honest). Just like the Queen is the most important since none of the drones can reproduce, the Pale Tree is important because it bears life when the sylvary “drones” cannot.

RL babies are not barren and infertile, so your comparison makes no sense.

Slushey.8236:

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The Pale Tree is a champion of the Forest Elder Dragon. Ventari found the Pale Tree’s seed in a cave amongst many and raised it, leaving it behind the Ventari Tablets. Just like Glint strayed from Kralkatorrik, the Pale Tree has strayed from the Forest Elder Dragon. Scarlet probably sees that the Pale Tree is just as controlling of the Sylvari as the Forest Elder Dragon is of the Nightmare Court. Serving to serve neither lets Scarlet choose her own path.

You might be interested in this video from Wooden Potatoes:::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab_yqVVDM0k

Unahim.1036:

They mean bee-type drones, not robots. Workers who cannot reproduce. The Queen of a hive also doesn’t “fully control” the worker bees, rather they have different castes and jobs, not very unlike how it works in human society (only we sorta get to choose our caste/job, though not completely if we’re honest). Just like the Queen is the most important since none of the drones can reproduce, the Pale Tree is important because it bears life when the sylvary “drones” cannot.

RL babies are not barren and infertile, so your comparison makes no sense.

And what if Scarlet plan is made sylvari reproducible? Cut off their from any tree or nightmare and made them independent?

I dislike how this Scarlet story seems to built around something that conflicts with the characterisation of the sylvari.

From the final part of the White Stag part of the personal story:

<Character name>: I’m honored to meet you, Mother Tree. I knew I had to protect the stag-I saw it my dream. Is that because of you?
Avatar of the Tree: No, dear heart. I do not control the Dream. I am simply it’s caretaker.

The same point is raised a couple other times in Caldeon Forest if you talk to all the other named sylvari NPCs. The Pale Tree doesn’t control the sylvari, she guides them. If you don’t want her guidance that’s a choice your free to make. There is another sylvari who talks “passionately” about the sylvari’s focus on the Elder Dragon, questions why they don’t focus on the immediate threats to the grove. The player character suggests to them it may be their Wyld Hunt to fight the immediate threats to the home of the sylvari. Freedom to choose what you do is a strong theme in the sylvari characterisation.

There are also sylvari who have disconnected themselves from the Dream – the Soundless. They too are free to make that choice. Apparently they can reach a state where they don’t even hear the Pale Tree any more.

Even the Nightmare isn’t it’s own thing, it’s just a part of the dream – it’s the name the sylvari give to the “darkest” parts of the dream.

The illusion that the sylvari live predetermined lives is just that – an illusion. I have no idea why it’s supposedly a big part of Scarlet’s characterisation (I assume I’m misunderstanding the short story because it seems at odds with what the game told me of the sylvari). I honestly don’t know what Scarlet’s goal or motivation is, but it’s not to free the sylvari from a predetermined destiny – they already have that freedom.

Atlas.9704:

locoman.1974:

Well, there’s also the soundless, a group of sylvari that decided to separate themselves from the pale tree and the dream but without succumbing to the nightmare (and actually, some choose to do that because they fear the nightmare that sometimes creeps its way into the dream).

True but currently the Soundless, to me at least, are the ‘weaker’ faction within the Sylvari. They do tend to go their own way and that is admirable, but they are also constantly harassed by the Nigthmare Court more because they are that vulnerable.

At least that’s what I took away from it within my time in the Forest doing hearts and talking to the NPCs.

Scarlet’s actions could be lumped in with the Soundless, but in a more aggressive manner. If anything she could recruit them because you can fight the nightmare and go your own way without succumbing to it.

The soundless aren’t weaker, they are just more vulnerable. They are born into the world with the same advantages as other sylvari (they still dream before awakening) just they choose to go out on their own. The Weeping Isle where they live is outside the borders of the Warden’s protection. The Soundless aren’t protected by the other sylvari and that’s why they are more vulnerable (it doesn’t help that they are so close to a Nightmare Court encampment). If the Lion Guard keeping the trade routes in the area had finished building their haven, they’d have more time to protect the area and the Soundless. The Soundless live on the front lines and so they are attacked more often, to call them weaker than the sylvri in the protection of the grove would be like calling the humans that live in Kessex Hills weaker than the humans that live in Divinity’s Reach.

The Soundless remind me people who move out of home and live without the support or aid of their parents compared to those who still live at home.

Slushey.8236:

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The Pale Tree is a champion of the Forest Elder Dragon. Ventari found the Pale Tree’s seed in a cave amongst many and raised it, leaving it behind the Ventari Tablets. Just like Glint strayed from Kralkatorrik, the Pale Tree has strayed from the Forest Elder Dragon. Scarlet probably sees that the Pale Tree is just as controlling of the Sylvari as the Forest Elder Dragon is of the Nightmare Court. Serving to serve neither lets Scarlet choose her own path.

It wasn’t Ventari who found the seed… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree

=)

Shiren.9532:

The soundless aren’t weaker, they are just more vulnerable. They are born into the world with the same advantages as other sylvari (they still dream before awakening) just they choose to go out on their own. The Weeping Isle where they live is outside the borders of the Warden’s protection. The Soundless aren’t protected by the other sylvari and that’s why they are more vulnerable (it doesn’t help that they are so close to a Nightmare Court encampment). If the Lion Guard keeping the trade routes in the area had finished building their haven, they’d have more time to protect the area and the Soundless. The Soundless live on the front lines and so they are attacked more often, to call them weaker than the sylvri in the protection of the grove would be like calling the humans that live in Kessex Hills weaker than the humans that live in Divinity’s Reach.

The Soundless remind me people who move out of home and live without the support or aid of their parents compared to those who still live at home.

Well that’s why I put in quotes around the term. I’ll admit vulnerable is probably the better description. I just chose weaker because if the Court is constantly harassing you and there’s a smaller community yes you are more vulnerable and, by extension, weaker than those who have a bigger base of operations and populace to help.

Of course at this point I’m mixing in a military mindset with them, so that’s why I thought the way I did.

Chrispy.5641:

Slushey.8236:

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The Pale Tree is a champion of the Forest Elder Dragon. Ventari found the Pale Tree’s seed in a cave amongst many and raised it, leaving it behind the Ventari Tablets. Just like Glint strayed from Kralkatorrik, the Pale Tree has strayed from the Forest Elder Dragon. Scarlet probably sees that the Pale Tree is just as controlling of the Sylvari as the Forest Elder Dragon is of the Nightmare Court. Serving to serve neither lets Scarlet choose her own path.

You might be interested in this video from Wooden Potatoes:::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab_yqVVDM0k

No I think you meant to link this video instead…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWtFf7UbtAQ

Slushey.8236:

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The Pale Tree is a champion of the Forest Elder Dragon. Ventari found the Pale Tree’s seed in a cave amongst many and raised it, leaving it behind the Ventari Tablets. Just like Glint strayed from Kralkatorrik, the Pale Tree has strayed from the Forest Elder Dragon. Scarlet probably sees that the Pale Tree is just as controlling of the Sylvari as the Forest Elder Dragon is of the Nightmare Court. Serving to serve neither lets Scarlet choose her own path.

sigh

The “Pale Tree is a dragon champion” theory had some small justification as wild speculation when it first appeared, but it has long since been debunked among any who pay any attention to the lore rather than just jumping on the bandwagon.

In the short form, there are three things that debunk it:

1) Regardless of what Glint said in Edge of Destiny, she didn’t just “choose” to break free of her master. Powerful magic from an elder race (the Forgotten) was required to grant her that opportunity. A few words carved on a stone tablet, however inspiring, does not have the power to break a dragon’s control over a minion, let alone a champion.

2) We see an example of a Sylvari from a tree that wasn’t influenced by the Tablet, and that sylvari’s behaviour is closer to those of normal sylvari than dragon minions or Nightmare Court.

3) It is possible to be corrupted by multiple dragons, so the sylvari protection from corruption has nothing to do with coming “pre-corrupted”. In fact, the only things we know of apart from the sylvari that are immune to dragon corruption are forgotten artifacts, so if we’re going to draw any conclusions from the sylvari immunity, it’d be that the forgotten were involved.

Gummy.4278:

Chrispy.5641:

Slushey.8236:

My theory (with credit to others who I don’t know to name)…

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

The Pale Tree is a champion of the Forest Elder Dragon. Ventari found the Pale Tree’s seed in a cave amongst many and raised it, leaving it behind the Ventari Tablets. Just like Glint strayed from Kralkatorrik, the Pale Tree has strayed from the Forest Elder Dragon. Scarlet probably sees that the Pale Tree is just as controlling of the Sylvari as the Forest Elder Dragon is of the Nightmare Court. Serving to serve neither lets Scarlet choose her own path.

You might be interested in this video from Wooden Potatoes:::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ab_yqVVDM0k

No I think you meant to link this video instead…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWtFf7UbtAQ

Why not both?

Here’s another thread that might be helpful here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/On-the-Sixth-Elder-Dragon-and-its-corruption/first

In this thread the poster brings up the “Pale Tree = Dragon Champion” theory and gives good reasons for why they don’t believe it to be true.