Possible Compromise
Honestly, my game client has crashed so many times due to lag during the Scarlet fight that I really really hope they don’t implement this idea. DC’ing at the very end of the 45 minutes would completely rob the player of the entirety of their meaningful loot, and with an entire map’s population of players in one fight, DC’ing is all too common.
If farmers want to farm champs, they should gravitate toward the minion events, which count enemies killed (and it seems like champs are given more weight than normal mobs) rather than number of events completed.
Aetherblade and Molten Alliance events are the opposite, where you want to complete as many of the events as possible, so people who are going for the event completion can focus on those.
Obviously, once their respective bars are completed, everyone should focus on whatever’s left, as everyone benefits from more loot if you actually defeat Scarlet.
Last I checked, the pirates are part of the meta event. Selfishness? I am sorry, but killing champions that were put there to be killed is far less selfish than people demanding others play a certain way; unless you paid for everyone’s copy of the game, you have no right to do that.
It seems like everyone in game screaming “IGNORE PIRATES” assumes that if we were not killing pirates, we would be wasting our time on the twisted events. Lets be real here, we wouldn’t even be in the map, the meta event wouldn’t even get as far as it does now (there are more farmers than completers), it would still fail, and farmers would no longer take the false blame. I have seen several fails in which it took 12-15 minutes to kill the first wave, and the blame is still placed on people spending an extra 2 minutes killing aetherblades. If the map fails, farmers have nothing to do with it, they just don’t. This is no different than blaming people who were doing other things on the map before the invasion arrived (map completion, for example).
That’s not to say your idea isn’t good and wouldn’t work, because it is, and it would; except for the intermittent connection issues. I suspect farmers would still be unfairly blamed for every fail, though.
(edited by Sanctus.8350)
Uh I don’t think farmers exactly want the event to fail. There really is no difference between failing and completing the event.
As a hardcore farmer, all I want to do is focus on aetherblades/molten when they pop up. That doesn’t mean I want to fail it.
If the casuals/completionists want to focus on minions then by all means I’ll do my part and kill the groups I want to.
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Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/
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Magic find works. http://sinasdf.imgur.com/
Last I checked, the pirates are part of the meta event. Selfishness? I am sorry, but killing champions that were put there to be killed is far less selfish than people demanding others play a certain way; unless you paid for everyone’s copy of the game, you have no right to do that.
That’s what I’m saying, the way the event is currently set up, Anet is essentially condoning not caring about the success or failure of the event. And it shouldn’t be that way. Why even bother having an event if success or failure doesn’t matter?
It seems like everyone in game screaming “IGNORE PIRATES” assumes that if we were not killing pirates, we would be wasting our time on the twisted events. Lets be real here, we wouldn’t even be in the map, the meta event wouldn’t even get as far as it does now (there are more farmers than completers), it would still fail, and farmers would no longer take the false blame. I have seen several fails in which it took 12-15 minutes to kill the first wave, and the blame is still placed on people spending an extra 2 minutes killing aetherblades. If the map fails, farmers have nothing to do with it, they just don’t. This is no different than blaming people who were doing other things on the map before the invasion arrived (map completion, for example).
That’s not to say your idea isn’t good and wouldn’t work, because it is, and it would; except for the intermittent connection issues. I suspect farmers would still be unfairly blamed for every fail, though.
I’m not blaming the farmers so much as saying they should be forced to care about the success of the event. As it stands, they don’t need to and aren’t obligated to. But a fair system would ensure that success or failure actually means something. Right now, success and failure are practically the same thing, and that makes absolutely no sense. What if the Queen’s Gauntlet gave a “consolation prize” of half the money and sprockets you would have gotten if you won, if you failed to kill one of the challenge bosses? It would render failure insignificant.
Personally, as long as scalet appeal I consider the event successful, which is a failure on Arenanet. They need to redo events so that event mobs don’t give out loot until after the event either fails or succeeds. just like the daily world boss loot, if the event fails then you don’t get loot or get only half of the possible loot.
Also they really need to make a good punishment for failuring. Failure should not be rewarded so generously. And even champions should not be getting in the way of completing events.
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
Uh I don’t think farmers exactly want the event to fail. There really is no difference between failing and completing the event.
Therein lies the problem. The ticket is to do something to make them care.
As a hardcore farmer, all I want to do is focus on aetherblades/molten when they pop up. That doesn’t mean I want to fail it.
But neither do you feel compelled to succeed. Success and failure should be drastically different, and right now they’re not, so clearly there’s a problem.
Personally, as long as scalet appeal I consider the event successful, which is a failure on Arenanet. They need to redo events so that event mobs don’t give out loot until after the event either fails or succeeds. just like the daily world boss loot, if the event fails then you don’t get loot or get only half of the possible loot.
Also they really need to make a good punishment for failuring. Failure should not be rewarded so generously. And even champions should not be getting in the way of completing events.
I think that between my proposal, the suggestion by others that mobs disappear after an event ends, and an additional idea that, if you fail an invasion after the LS chapter ends and the invasions become much less frequent, the next invasion will be delayed significantly, Anet has the opportunity to make failure actually mean something and to reward successful completion of the invasion meta-events.
Uh I don’t think farmers exactly want the event to fail. There really is no difference between failing and completing the event.
Therein lies the problem. The ticket is to do something to make them care.
As a hardcore farmer, all I want to do is focus on aetherblades/molten when they pop up. That doesn’t mean I want to fail it.
But neither do you feel compelled to succeed. Success and failure should be drastically different, and right now they’re not, so clearly there’s a problem.
While things are not perfect, I think the invasion is a good start to more interesting perminate content. And I hope the feedback they get here will be implement down the line (realistically I don’t expect it next week but the release in mid september).
As u know im pro. ~Tomonobu Itagaki
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
This is an mmo forum, if someone isn’t whining chances are the game is dead.
While things are not perfect, I think the invasion is a good start to more interesting perminate content. And I hope the feedback they get here will be implement down the line (realistically I don’t expect it next week but the release in mid september).
Whatever happens, I sure hope they don’t continue to equate success and failure like they have with this patch.
All that really needs to happen is for people to realise that as long as you kill Scarelet once, you never need to complete the event again. There’s a bug where the invasion canceler achievement doesn’t increase like its supposed to, and many people believe that when this happens, its because the event wasn’t successful. Once they know they don’t have to succeed, 99% of people stop caring, because they know completing the event results in so few extra rewards its not worth the time or trouble. Last night I was in an invasion with a strange person who refused to believe that failing the event was supposed to increment the canceler achievement, but sometimes does not due to a glitch, despite an entire map of both farmers and non farmers confirming that they have gotten achievement progress for failed maps.
All that really needs to happen is for people to realise that as long as you kill Scarelet once, you never need to complete the event again. There’s a bug where the invasion canceler achievement doesn’t increase like its supposed to, and many people believe that when this happens, its because the event wasn’t successful. Once they know they don’t have to succeed, 99% of people stop caring, because they know completing the event results in so few extra rewards its not worth the time or trouble. Last night I was in an invasion with a strange person who refused to believe that failing the event was supposed to increment the canceler achievement, but sometimes does not due to a glitch, despite an entire map of both farmers and non farmers confirming that they have gotten achievement progress for failed maps.
That’s beside the point though…killing Scarlet should have a more profound and beneficial result, and failing should also mean something. The difference between success and failure shouldn’t be a mere 7 or 8 champ bags and an achievement.
Here’s a possible compromise. Everyone who doesn’t play the game like I want them to must be punished. Casual players must become super good with leet skills or be removed from the game. Just like I said here.
Fixed that for you.
Ironically, in this one instance, I find farming more fun. Aetherblades would kick nine shades of….. well they’re harder than the other kinds of enemies it spawns.
Here’s a possible compromise. Everyone who doesn’t play the game like I want them to must be punished. Casual players must become super good with leet skills or be removed from the game. Just like I said here.
Fixed that for you.
Please explain why success ought to mean the same as failure then. “It doesn’t matter why, because it does” is not sufficient to explain why. This is not how I want things to be, it’s how things ought to be based on how Anet set up the game. Are events NOT designed to be completed? Because the way the game is set up, it seems like they should be. Or are you saying we should just be thrown experience and loot for just existing, without putting any effort into the game?
Imagine the RAGE from people when they lose half the loot bags they “earned” because they failed the event. Players will be blaming each other, the chat box will explode as will the forums.
If they had implemented this initially, then it would simply be part of the event. But now it’s too late.
Unfortunately, everyone will have to farm as much as possible now to keep up with the economy — and especially since you can be sure there will be a major nerf on Tuesday.
Imagine the RAGE from people when they lose half the loot bags they “earned” because they failed the event. Players will be blaming each other, the chat box will explode as will the forums.
If they had implemented this initially, then it would simply be part of the event. But now it’s too late.
Unfortunately, everyone will have to farm as much as possible now to keep up with the economy — and especially since you can be sure there will be a major nerf on Tuesday.
So…you’re saying that people should be mad that there are consequences for failure? People rage every time Arenanet “nerfs” a farm, there’s no getting past that. Yet “nerfs” are essential for preserving balance and ensuring fairness. The only unfair part is that farms are allowed to exist for so long before being adequately addressed, and there’s no consequence for early adopters yet latecomers get the short end of the stick. But I see nothing unusual about penalizing failure.
Imagine the RAGE from people when they lose half the loot bags they “earned” because they failed the event. Players will be blaming each other, the chat box will explode as will the forums.
If they had implemented this initially, then it would simply be part of the event. But now it’s too late.
Unfortunately, everyone will have to farm as much as possible now to keep up with the economy — and especially since you can be sure there will be a major nerf on Tuesday.
So…you’re saying that people should be mad that there are consequences for failure? People rage every time Arenanet “nerfs” a farm, there’s no getting past that. Yet “nerfs” are essential for preserving balance and ensuring fairness. The only unfair part is that farms are allowed to exist for so long before being adequately addressed, and there’s no consequence for early adopters yet latecomers get the short end of the stick. But I see nothing unusual about penalizing failure.
I’m not saying they should be mad, I’m saying they will be mad. For most other nerfs, people were angry at Anet for killing their farms. If this were implemented, players will rage against each other when an event fails. Everyone will be blaming everyone else for doing this or that which caused the event to fail. People already do that when the event fails even though it really means nothing to fail — this would multiply the anger by 100. It’d be bad for the community.
Again, if this were implemented when the invasions were first introduced people would have just accepted this as part of the invasion mechanic — there would be less rage. But it’s too late now.
Edit: By the way, I’m not saying the farming shouldn’t be nerfed. I think it should be. I absolutely hate these events as I feel they are horribly tedious, but I feel compelled to do them because I’m getting left behind in terms of the economy — my gold is worth far less now in gems (which is what I personally care about) than before the invasion.
(edited by Lord Kuru.3685)
Imagine the RAGE from people when they lose half the loot bags they “earned” because they failed the event. Players will be blaming each other, the chat box will explode as will the forums.
If they had implemented this initially, then it would simply be part of the event. But now it’s too late.
Unfortunately, everyone will have to farm as much as possible now to keep up with the economy — and especially since you can be sure there will be a major nerf on Tuesday.
So…you’re saying that people should be mad that there are consequences for failure? People rage every time Arenanet “nerfs” a farm, there’s no getting past that. Yet “nerfs” are essential for preserving balance and ensuring fairness. The only unfair part is that farms are allowed to exist for so long before being adequately addressed, and there’s no consequence for early adopters yet latecomers get the short end of the stick. But I see nothing unusual about penalizing failure.
I’m not saying they should be mad, I’m saying they will be mad. For most other nerfs, people were angry at Anet for killing their farms. If this were implemented, players will rage against each other when an event fails. Everyone will be blaming everyone else for doing this or that which caused the event to fail. People already do that when the event fails even though it really means nothing to fail — this would multiply the anger by 100. It’d be bad for the community.
Again, if this were implemented when the invasions were first introduced people would have just accepted this as part of the invasion mechanic — there would be less rage. But it’s too late now.
It’s never too late to fix things that need to be fixed. Let the community rage, this is a ridiculous situation we’re in right now and it needs to be fixed, sooner rather than later. Better it get remedied a week after it started than never get fixed. It took them quite a while to fix the Shadow Form and Ursan farms in GW1, I see no reason why they shouldn’t fix this situation as well.
As I stated in one of the other threads about this topic; doing anything that puts risk or nerfs drops for farmers will cause them to be less likely to farm the maps. With less people, you’ll be even more likely to fail.
Just look at Crown Pavilion. People have less incentive to farm there so it’s usually near empty; even at peak hours. For those that still need the 100 kills from each emissary, they’re going to have a tough time.
It’s never too late to fix things that need to be fixed. Let the community rage, this is a ridiculous situation we’re in right now and it needs to be fixed, sooner rather than later. Better it get remedied a week after it started than never get fixed. It took them quite a while to fix the Shadow Form and Ursan farms in GW1, I see no reason why they shouldn’t fix this situation as well.
I think there should be a nerf of the farming and I’m pretty sure it’s going to happen on Tuesday. However, I don’t think the nerf should be one that causes the community to rage against each other (against Anet, fine, that happens every time anyway).
Anyway, considering Anet’s nerf MO, they are more likely to do it by time gating the champ drops (for example you only get drops from the champs during one invasion per day) or drastically reducing the number of champs that spawn. It’ll be interesting to see how many people continue to do the invasions after this nerf.
As I stated in one of the other threads about this topic; doing anything that puts risk or nerfs drops for farmers will cause them to be less likely to farm the maps. With less people, you’ll be even more likely to fail.
Just look at Crown Pavilion. People have less incentive to farm there so it’s usually near empty; even at peak hours. For those that still need the 100 kills from each emissary, they’re going to have a tough time.
I’m not so sure…with fewer people, the events won’t scale as badly, so it’ll actually be way easier for smaller groups to finish the events on time. Part of the reason why events take so long at present is because of massive upscaling due to huge zergs doing the events.
So incredibly glad a lot you do not work for Anet. Love this event as is.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
As I stated in one of the other threads about this topic; doing anything that puts risk or nerfs drops for farmers will cause them to be less likely to farm the maps. With less people, you’ll be even more likely to fail.
Just look at Crown Pavilion. People have less incentive to farm there so it’s usually near empty; even at peak hours. For those that still need the 100 kills from each emissary, they’re going to have a tough time.
I’m not so sure…with fewer people, the events won’t scale as badly, so it’ll actually be way easier for smaller groups to finish the events on time. Part of the reason why events take so long at present is because of massive upscaling due to huge zergs doing the events.
This is what you get already. Farming aetherblades scales up the events being farmed, not all the events. If people going for completion stopped zerging around when they realized there weren’t heaps of other zergs backing them up, they could split and do lots of easier events at the same time.
So incredibly glad a lot you do not work for Anet. Love this event as is.
Why? Because if I did, you’d actually have to work hard to get good stuff?
This is what you get already. Farming aetherblades scales up the events being farmed, not all the events. If people going for completion stopped zerging around when they realized there weren’t heaps of other zergs backing them up, they could split and do lots of easier events at the same time.
So if there are fewer farmers, what changes other than the zerged-up events being easily beatable by the smaller groups?
This is what you get already. Farming aetherblades scales up the events being farmed, not all the events. If people going for completion stopped zerging around when they realized there weren’t heaps of other zergs backing them up, they could split and do lots of easier events at the same time.
So if there are fewer farmers, what changes other than the zerged-up events being easily beatable by the smaller groups?
No, not even that changes, because they’re already easily beatable by small groups. Farmers scale up the events they are at, which will be Aetherblades. Aetherblades, nonetheless, vaporise under their combined damage and are soon off the progress bar. At this point, if you’re farming, you keep going to the remaining ‘blades because the other stuff is near worthless by comparison. Now you’re still only scaling up those Aetherblade events, but all the other people on the map are used to having your zergs around, and instead of splitting up and completing really easy events like reason would suggest, they keep up their own zergs, scale the events, and take longer.
Then they complain in /map that they’re failing because people are ‘farming pirates’. If there was any useful difference made at all by farmers leaving, it would be that the lemming parade never forms in the first place, and thus doesn’t need to worry about thinking hard enough to change tactics after it gets going. However it is of course entirely possible they’d still zerg up and just whine about not having enough people, or enough damage, or something else.
So incredibly glad a lot you do not work for Anet. Love this event as is.
Why? Because if I did, you’d actually have to work hard to get good stuff?
Exactly, nub. I already do that at a place I like to call my “job” that I make real money at. I don’t want to make this game my job… so, quit trying to make everyone else play the way you want to.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
So incredibly glad a lot you do not work for Anet. Love this event as is.
Why? Because if I did, you’d actually have to work hard to get good stuff?
Exactly, nub. I already do that at a place I like to call my “job” that I make real money at. I don’t want to make this game my job… so, quit trying to make everyone else play the way you want to.
So…what, you want to be showered in precursors, Ascended trinkets, and gems the whole time you’re in the game, without having to display any actual skill? Or if you are skilled, do you want the worst player in the game to get exactly the same stuff you do, without expending any effort?
(edited by Equinox.4968)
The thing is though, “farmers” only think of themselves. I see thefantasticg is making his rounds, also proving how much the GW2 is collapsing.
(edited by Nathan Gura.3750)
Nathan, pointing out the complete and utter silliness of this farming QQ’ing is just plain fun. Again, suck it up son. It’s a game.
I tell you what. Send me $80 I paid for GW2 then you can have some say in the way I play. To have 100% say you’d have to pay for part of my mortgage, electric bill, internet bill, and a few other things. Otherwise, you snowflakes can quit the QQ’ing.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
(edited by thefantasticg.3984)
Nathan, pointing out the complete and utter silliness of this farming QQ’ing is just plain fun. Again, suck it up son. It’s a game.
I tell you what. Send me $80 I paid for GW2 then you can have some say in the way I play. To have 100% say you’d have to pay for part of my mortgage, electric bill, internet bill, and a few other things. Otherwise, you snowflakes can quit the QQ’ing.
It’s not farming so much as the principle of failure granting you rewards that are comparable to success. Also, if it’s “just a game” then why are you getting so upset about it?
Invasions proceed as normal, spawning the current number of champions (meaning the post-fix rate, not the initial, super-high rate we saw on the 20th). Farmers can keep killing these champions however much they please. HOWEVER, any and all champion loot bags that would normally be earned by killing champions tied to the invasion meta-event would be held in reserve until the end of the entire invasion. If the invasion is successfully completed and Scarlet is killed, the player earns all of the loot bags he or she earned. If it fails, the player only receives half the loot bags.
This seems like a good compromise to me because it still allows people to get tons of loot bags, but also provides a major incentive to complete the event.
In other words, you expect farmers to take a huge risk spending their time on invasions, and if they win they only receive what they are already guaranteed to get right now. Why should farmers agree to this? That’s not a compromise at all, that’s blatant unilateralism which favors the completers and is nothing but more whining on your part, thinly veiled as higher discourse.
Upset? lol! Me? Nah, snowflake. You have me confused for someone who cares.
RNG is a bell curve. Better hope you’re on the right side.
In other words, you expect farmers to take a huge risk spending their time on invasions, and if they win they only receive what they are already guaranteed to get right now. Why should farmers agree to this? That’s not a compromise at all, that’s blatant unilateralism which favors the completers and is nothing but more whining on your part, thinly veiled as higher discourse.
So you’re saying that it shouldn’t matter whether events get completed or not? The problem may be with these events in particular, but I’m talking about events in general. It makes absolutely no sense to me that events should be equally rewarding whether you complete them or not, or worse, even MORE rewarding if you DON’T complete them. Sort of like how these days, spending forever in college seems to be more rewarding than going out and getting a job. The point of college (and events) is to complete them to gain something that will prove valuable in the future, not to take college/the events as ends unto themselves. Again, as I’ve said before, much of the blame lies with Arenanet for making it so that events are less profitable when completed. But why should failing an event (or at least having blatant disregard for whether it’s successful or not) be rewarded? Success and failure ought to be quite distinct, with success being notably more profitable than failure, and failure being something unequivocally undesirable. In other words, the margin between success and failure should be tangible, clearly defined, and act as a motivator that compels people to successfully complete events, not be indifferent to them, or worse, use them for farming rather than completing them.
Here’s a possible compromise. Everyone who doesn’t play the game like I want them to must be punished. Casual players must become super good with leet skills or be removed from the game. Just like I said here.
Fixed that for you.
Please explain why success ought to mean the same as failure then. “It doesn’t matter why, because it does” is not sufficient to explain why. This is not how I want things to be, it’s how things ought to be based on how Anet set up the game. Are events NOT designed to be completed? Because the way the game is set up, it seems like they should be. Or are you saying we should just be thrown experience and loot for just existing, without putting any effort into the game?
Let me explain it this way.
No one plays your game, they play their game.
You do not own the game.
You do not make the rules.
You have no business telling anyone how they should play.
You have no business demanding they listen to your instructions.
You have no business suggesting that players must live up to your standards or be forced from the game.
That is as clear as I can make it.
Here’s a possible compromise. Everyone who doesn’t play the game like I want them to must be punished. Casual players must become super good with leet skills or be removed from the game. Just like I said here.
Fixed that for you.
Please explain why success ought to mean the same as failure then. “It doesn’t matter why, because it does” is not sufficient to explain why. This is not how I want things to be, it’s how things ought to be based on how Anet set up the game. Are events NOT designed to be completed? Because the way the game is set up, it seems like they should be. Or are you saying we should just be thrown experience and loot for just existing, without putting any effort into the game?
Let me explain it this way.
No one plays your game, they play their game.
You do not own the game.
You do not make the rules.
You have no business telling anyone how they should play.
You have no business demanding they listen to your instructions.
You have no business suggesting that players must live up to your standards or be forced from the game.That is as clear as I can make it.
And you have no right to tell me I have no right to state my opinion. I don’t presume to have Anet’s authority or be able to change the game, or have power over other players to force them to do something. This is merely my opinion. What’s wrong with stating it? “Should” does not mean “is.” I am simply stating my opinion of what should happen.
I may have no right to force anyone to do anything, but nobody has a right to tell me I can’t express my opinions and explain what I think would help GW2. I can opine that people should do things a certain way all day long, and that’s ok. I can suggest that people should strive to attain certain minimum standards all day long, and that’s ok. It’s freedom of speech, and this is a free country. I am not trying to make this a personal attack, but it seems to me that you’re taking this very personally because I’m suggesting something that you disagree with. Disagreement is fine; debate is a healthy means for figuring out problems. Demanding that someone be silent because you don’t like what they have to say is not ok.
(edited by Equinox.4968)