Guild Wars 2

So as not to completely derail the “we don’t like Trahearne” topic complaining about his character, I thought it would be a good idea to discuss a much more positive suggestion I’m seeing brought up in a number of posts: Evil-Trahearne!

cmlanton.3496:

Okay, here’s my proposal:

Since there’s no way they can undo what has already been done, ANet needs to work with what they have. So what do you do when the personal story is over, and no one is satisfied? Release expansion content! The way I see it, Trahearne is in the perfect position to be a super villain. He’s disliked by most of the player base, and for good reason. He’s in a position of power. He’s well liked by the npcs. He’s got the Disney villain thing going on with his voice. He’s got the undying trust of everyone. He’s shuffled your character underfoot, and has taken your credit and respect.

If Trahearne was a villain, it would mean you would have a reason to be “the hero” again. It wouldn’t even need to start all at once. Your character could notice slow changes in Trahearne’s character – the Pale Tree could show concern. There could be a whole campaign against your character by Trahearne’s loyals when you refuse to be his yes-man, and old friends could reappear out of the woodwork to offer their support. Hell, for all I care, your mentor could miraculously still be alive. The orders could, at some point, gain independence again, while the Pact could remain Trahearne’s army. Destiny’s Edge could be your best friend.

I think this is a brilliant idea, and it’s not the only post.

Making Trahearne become an antagonist would be great because he is the figurehead of the pact, which leads to interesting tension and drama.

A lot of people miss their orders, and many charr players miss their warband. Through tensions with Trahearne, it is possible to to deconstruct the Pact without eliminating it from the story entirely, and allow us to return to our orders.

Members of the Pact and loyalists to Trahearne could begin to doubt the protagonist, but members of our order such as Demmi Beetlestone would continue to trust the player despite the conflict. Even friends like Quinn and our own sister from the Human-storyline whom we’ve been helping throughout the story could show their support in our time of need.

I remember in one personal story quest where the Pale Tree shows the player the vision of Orr, we have 3 choices what our “greatest fear” was. I think it would be very appropriate if our answer mattered, because one of the answers implied our fear was losing the trust of comrades.

I think it’s a great idea. Arenanet has made once-good people or groups evil in the past. Look at what happened with the White Mantle, Kourna, and the Ministry of Purity in Guild Wars 1. Those were great storylines.
Also, in making Trahearne and the Pact evil, Arenanet could give the player control of their own character again. It seems like once you got to the Pact, whatever personality you had developed for your character in the early personal story was forcibly cast aside. Suddenly, your character becomes the goody-two-shoes drone, the noble lacky, ect. If the Pact becomes the enemy, Arenanet could let you control how your character reacts to the betrayal—not only choosing what action to take, but what emotions the character feels. You’d have room to stop being the noble dimwit, and react as a genunine person—with rage, or anguish, or terror, ect.

Weindrasi.3805:

I think it’s a great idea. Arenanet has made once-good people or groups evil in the past. Look at what happened with the White Mantle, Kourna, and the Ministry of Purity in Guild Wars 1. Those were great storylines.
Also, in making Trahearne and the Pact evil, Arenanet could give the player control of their own character again. It seems like once you got to the Pact, whatever personality you had developed for your character in the early personal story was forcibly cast aside. Suddenly, your character becomes the goody-two-shoes drone, the noble lacky, ect. If the Pact becomes the enemy, Arenanet could let you control how your character reacts to the betrayal—not only choosing what action to take, but what emotions the character feels. You’d have room to stop being the noble dimwit, and react as a genunine person—with rage, or anguish, or terror, ect.

I don’t know if they could make the Pact evil since we co-operate them in areas like Frostgorge.

However, introducing a new faction of former Pact members named “Loyalists” would do the trick.

Kain Francois.4328:

Weindrasi.3805:

I think it’s a great idea. Arenanet has made once-good people or groups evil in the past. Look at what happened with the White Mantle, Kourna, and the Ministry of Purity in Guild Wars 1. Those were great storylines.
Also, in making Trahearne and the Pact evil, Arenanet could give the player control of their own character again. It seems like once you got to the Pact, whatever personality you had developed for your character in the early personal story was forcibly cast aside. Suddenly, your character becomes the goody-two-shoes drone, the noble lacky, ect. If the Pact becomes the enemy, Arenanet could let you control how your character reacts to the betrayal—not only choosing what action to take, but what emotions the character feels. You’d have room to stop being the noble dimwit, and react as a genunine person—with rage, or anguish, or terror, ect.

I don’t know if they could make the Pact evil since we co-operate them in areas like Frostgorge.

However, introducing a new faction of former Pact members named “Loyalists” would do the trick.

The pact doesn’t notice you in Frostgorge Sound as a commander, only as some bloke showing up. I highly doubt they’d notice you when you were evil.

In the eyes of your men, others are either soldiers, travelers, or Trahearne .

It’s brilliant, really, they should totally make it like that, I can perfectly imagine it.
Just “how to fight the dragons” would have to be different, but since they already kittened up on Zaithan I don’t expect that much lorewise… Seriously, we searched the hell out of things, discovered dwarven relics and writings, some guy was translating it… and we never heard of him again. It all ended up on “shoot a fricking laser and throw some balls”, but I’m going off-topic, sorry.

But it really would be perfect, people divided, some with their own orders, others with the pact, a lot of intrigue and espionage, unecessary fights and deaths, drama, better plots, it’d be awesome.

The pact has captured CoE,CoF and Arah, someone will be inevitablly studying their magics and someone will think he is incorruptible and then……:)

Cliché. Is all I have to say about this idea.

I just want to kick Trahearne in the face so yes. In fact, make the whole Sylvari race villians, those salad heads are up to no good. Imagine some Pact airships flying in, firing rockets at the Pale Tree Avatar-style. That will teach them.
Don’t worry all Syvari players will get a brand new Tengu as replacement. Great ideas to make a great game even better.

Or you could make Trahearne go Nightmare…

SirDrygan.1823:

Cliché. Is all I have to say about this idea.

Not all cliche’s are bad, especially when they are done well.

Awesome idea. +1

Even though Sylvari have not been corrupted by any dragon as of yet, It is quite possible that the dragons will come up with a specific form of corruption for them. The previous master of whispers was corrupted, which required spoiler to kill him/her in conjunction with Trahearne, Why couldn’t we do the same to Trahearne?

I like the idea, though it would be difficult to pull off convincingly and there would have to be a gradual build-up to it. I actually kind of like Trahearne. He’s patient, contemplative, and though he is reluctant to act he recognizes when he must. I actually can’t imagine him doing anything corrupt or downright “evil,” though villains don’t always have to be selfish “bad guys.” Lots of interesting villains believe the ends justifies the means, and share mutual respect with the hero while necessarily opposing them. With all the desperation and controversy that could be found in a world plagued with multiple crises, there are many ways Trahearne could be forced to make difficult choices that will earn him enemies. One of those enemies could be you.

I don’t see this happening in the first expansion, but it would be great to watch the undercurrents of what’s to come start to take shape. He’s a little boring now, but he could end up being a really fascinating character depending on how they play him. Could even wind up being some kind of betrayed-by-his-allies outlaw like Big Boss, or something.

Rilke Cadmus.6829:

Even though Sylvari have not been corrupted by any dragon as of yet, It is quite possible that the dragons will come up with a specific form of corruption for them. The previous master of whispers was corrupted, which required spoiler to kill him/her in conjunction with Trahearne, Why couldn’t we do the same to Trahearne?

Turns out they can be, but you have to take a certain path when choosing how to confront Zhaitan, the Close the Eye mission has you run into a clearly-corrupted Sylvari who’s raving on and on about Zhaitan. That was pointed out to me in the other Traherne thread and I think it’s a bad move to show that Sylvari can be corrupted in only one mission that’s mutually exclusive to each character.

This would be awesome. I can imagine Trahearne turning villian because he’s lost now that he’s completed his Wyld Hunt.

Yinello.7068:

This would be awesome. I can imagine Trahearne turning villian because he’s lost now that he’s completed his Wyld Hunt.

Hmm, then you’d have to take a Sylvari PC into account since their Wyld Hunt is specifically to kill Zhaitan.

Rhinzual.7861:

Yinello.7068:

This would be awesome. I can imagine Trahearne turning villian because he’s lost now that he’s completed his Wyld Hunt.

Hmm, then you’d have to take a Sylvari PC into account since their Wyld Hunt is specifically to kill Zhaitan.

I think the Sylvari PC Wyld Hunt was to defeat all of the elder dragons, not just Zhaitan. I may be wrong, it has been a while since I last played a Sylvari.
Concerning the topic, you don’t even know how great I think this idea is! Actually, I do not really dislike the character Trahearne as much as many in the forums appear to do but it’s always nice to see someone turn “evil” in video games, since I feel like it happens not often enough. I mean, what would you get if you’d join an elder dragon? Power most likely, lots of it. That sure should sound tempting to many mortals particularly because they are mortal and would die anyway one day… so why not live a life full of great power?

Disney Villain thing: Bland and emotionless londoner. I think he needs to be revoiced and have some actual backstory before anything else happens.

Rhinzual.7861:

Rilke Cadmus.6829:

Even though Sylvari have not been corrupted by any dragon as of yet, It is quite possible that the dragons will come up with a specific form of corruption for them. The previous master of whispers was corrupted, which required spoiler to kill him/her in conjunction with Trahearne, Why couldn’t we do the same to Trahearne?

Turns out they can be, but you have to take a certain path when choosing how to confront Zhaitan, the Close the Eye mission has you run into a clearly-corrupted Sylvari who’s raving on and on about Zhaitan. That was pointed out to me in the other Traherne thread and I think it’s a bad move to show that Sylvari can be corrupted in only one mission that’s mutually exclusive to each character.

I have actually completed the mission in question, and have seen the insane Sylvari, but Trahearne explicitly points out in that mission that her malady was treatable, like someone who has PTSD, not someone who had been irrevocably corrupted by a dragon. I don’t know whether I misunderstood the scene or not, but its still an interesting concept. As a result of corruption by the dragon, I dont think there has been a single other case where the subject hasn’t undergone a visual change of some kind (even the Sons of Svanir, though not actually corrupted, dress differently than other norn.)

I can’t wait to see a “I told you so.” from players who predicted Trahearne is actually evil. Since you all wanted him to be evil and if ANet agrees with you all and really put out a plot twists like everyone wanted to in a future Expansion or storyline update.
Since you all “want” him to be evil, you may get this wish, in the future.

And I still will say…..“Cliché”. since this is not original, nor it is really “surprising at all”. But hey, people will not think about it and just scream “We knew it!. Trahearne was the right hand to Zhaitan, we could smell it from miles away!!” kinda comment when that time comes this so-called plot twist is introduce by ANet.

Can’t you all think of something better than just making Trahearne EVIL? Good guys becoming bad guys is NOT an original idea nor it is surprising anymore and vice versa.

SirDrygan.1823:

I can’t wait to see a “I told you so.” from players who predicted Trahearne is actually evil. Since you all wanted him to be evil and if ANet agrees with you all and really put out a plot twists like everyone wanted to in a future Expansion or storyline update.
Since you all “want” him to be evil, you may get this wish, in the future.

Don’t be silly, just because the players don’t like him Anet wont change their plans for him. If they wanted him to become evil, they would do it no matter what the players say. While Anet certainly listens to players concern over game mechanics, I can’t imagine them to change their story for that. The closest thing we got into that direction was including the Mursaat in a side quest in EotN after people wanted to see them again, and even that is debatable, the side quest could have been planned anyway.

Besides that, is there any official raction from Anet, addressing the overwhelming negative overwhelming over Trahearne? I mean it’s certainly disappointing for the people who came up with him, to see how loathed he is.

Yet another great idea from the community. The majority of the playerbase would love to kill Trahearne.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

SirDrygan.1823:

I can’t wait to see a “I told you so.” from players who predicted Trahearne is actually evil. Since you all wanted him to be evil and if ANet agrees with you all and really put out a plot twists like everyone wanted to in a future Expansion or storyline update.
Since you all “want” him to be evil, you may get this wish, in the future.

Don’t be silly, just because the players don’t like him Anet wont change their plans for him. If they wanted him to become evil, they would do it no matter what the players say. While Anet certainly listens to players concern over game mechanics, I can’t imagine them to change their story for that. The closest thing we got into that direction was including the Mursaat in a side quest in EotN after people wanted to see them again, and even that is debatable, the side quest could have been planned anyway.

Besides that, is there any official raction from Anet, addressing the overwhelming negative overwhelming over Trahearne? I mean it’s certainly disappointing for the people who came up with him, to see how loathed he is.

You know, when many of your player base wants something to happen, even if it by coincidences, it will happen, somehow. Because many are preaching that ANet listens to their player base. There is always that notion that if you complain enough, things will change kinda attitude. And sometimes it does happen like that.

Story may or may not change. But when storyline and money are involved. It will change to suit the money not the story. So, even if the person that created Trahearne intended for the storyline to be in a certain way, but was forced to change it to sooth some angry heads, do you think they won’t do it? For the sake of trying to make people happy?

Considering how much Anet loves their Sylvari, I heavily doubt they make Trahearne a villian, if they haven’t planned it anyway. He rather never shows up again in future expansions, to avoid annoying the players with him.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Considering how much Anet loves their Sylvari, I heavily doubt they make Trahearne a villian, if they haven’t planned it anyway. He rather never shows up again in future expansions, to avoid annoying the players with him.

I wonder why the devs came up with the sylvari in the first place? Their “purpose” is about as contrived as it gets and worse yet they have an non-elven elf feel to them. Why not simply make elves if they wanted to? Its not like there aren’t other transplanted species in the world as it is.

It really sounds like a GM’s personally created and doted on race that got out of hand.

Soyokaze.3960:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Considering how much Anet loves their Sylvari, I heavily doubt they make Trahearne a villian, if they haven’t planned it anyway. He rather never shows up again in future expansions, to avoid annoying the players with him.

I wonder why the devs came up with the sylvari in the first place? Their “purpose” is about as contrived as it gets and worse yet they have an non-elven elf feel to them. Why not simply make elves if they wanted to? Its not like there aren’t other transplanted species in the world as it is.

It really sounds like a GM’s personally created and doted on race that got out of hand.

Humans fit the elves when you look at how they are dwindling and other races are rising. Sylvari are much more like fey when you notice that they aren’t human, just mimmicing human appearances, the whole Wyld Hunt thing, and a part of them being completely isolationist, xenophobic, and not in line with typical good/evil morality (The Nightmare Court).

for a long time I’ve been thinking that “the coward useless vegetable” would one day revealed as a disguised evil guy. come on he gets his awesome sword and does no damage what so ever is allways dyeing and hiding in the fort you do all the work and he gets the credits he even spawns undead minions I was like is he a necromancer now? xD
plus to beat zaithan I would only request the vegetable sniper squad and a gollem suit we didn’t needed any of all those strategic missions. It really looked that he was making up missions to try to get me killed! plus all those rituals to clean orr looked like he just want to take over that place to become ocupyed by his vegetables.

Plus we also have the example that vegetables aren’t trustworthy its called nightmare court!
in this game vegetables does not good to your health! dont eat them! xD

SirDrygan.1823:

Cliché. Is all I have to say about this idea.

Not as cliche as him being the unambiguously good guy. Don’t forget, that’s the most cliche of all.

OT: It’s a fantastic idea: ambitious, problem-solving, and pushes the PC into the limelight all at once.

If Trahearne fell into Nightmare, I’d be very impressed with the writing staff.

I’m not particularly attached to Traehearne, but I think having him become evil is just adding a painful cliche on top of all the other issues with the character. Having an important NPC become evil just because you need a new boss happens so frequently in MMOs that it really is more cliche than the “unambiguous good guy” at this point.

There are ways to push him into the background or kill him off that don’t necessarily involve turning him into the endboss of the new Fort Trinity dungeon. They probably will if the game lasts long enough, but it’s not exactly the most innovative option.

I love the idea of Trahearne turning evil – Especially with all his talk of having no drive for his existence and rising to new challenges. Whose to say he doesn’t decide to try to destroy the world as his next challenge? lol

But, I don’t agree with the statement that ANet can’t change what’s already happened.

To clarify – I mean, they can add other story paths beside Trahearne from 51+.
I would like to see them add other characters with different major goals besides cleansing Orr.

I would especially like to see alternate story modes for Arah.
Who says we can only fight Zhaitan one way? :P

Brilliant suggestion by the OP. Please bring back my mentor Tybalt and Forgal, they are the only good characters in the Personal Story. Heck, ANet could even assign Logan to me for all I care.

I think it’s a good idea. We were just talking about Trahearne in my guild the other night. Nobody in my guild likes Trahearne. Who the F is this guy that just comes in at the last minute and steals all the credit for everything I do? We’ve all already got a grudge against him. Please let him be evil.

like saying the world has to be black and white. You’re wrong.
Trahearne doesn’t need to be evil, you folks take the cake at it.

i made this idea long ago, that the players actions will influence whether trahearne becomes evil or not:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/story/Rewriting-Trahearne-Caladbolg/first#post967592

Lechtrixx.1053:

like saying the world has to be black and white. You’re wrong.
Trahearne doesn’t need to be evil, you folks take the cake at it.

If only that were true. Our characters have to be the heroes… er, sidekicks of the story. We have to help Trahearne save the world. Don’t want to? Don’t play the personal story. There’s no other option.

We’re actually “warmarshall” Trahearn’s right hand as his commander. I’m sure you’re aware that at the end of his wyld hunt, he commits all the pact forces to what has become our cause and the defeat of Zhaitan.
That’s why we’re heroes.

Lechtrixx.1053:

We’re actually “warmarshall” Trahearn’s right hand as his commander. I’m sure you’re aware that at the end of his wyld hunt, he commits all the pact forces to what has become our cause and the defeat of Zhaitan.
That’s why we’re heroes.

I still have no idea why the walking weed wanted to purify Orr first. If Zhaitan is the source of undead, then killing him should have been the top priority. I mean, what if all purifying Orr did was just alert Zhaitan that the place is cleansed? He could have just gone underground and started the whole corruption process all over again. My Charr even told Rytlock (in one of those voiced ‘cutscenes’) that killing Zhaitan is the only way to stop the flow of undead. Pretty sure that’s what every other race, aside from maybe Sylvari, will say.

Purifying the waters of Orr was specifically Trahearn’s wyld hunt, although I’d agree that Zhaitan should have been the top priority given the source of the undead.
But, that’s where we come in and becomes our ultimate aim regardless of what race we choose to represent.

Rhinzual.7861:

I still have no idea why the walking weed wanted to purify Orr first. If Zhaitan is the source of undead, then killing him should have been the top priority. I mean, what if all purifying Orr did was just alert Zhaitan that the place is cleansed? He could have just gone underground and started the whole corruption process all over again. My Charr even told Rytlock (in one of those voiced ‘cutscenes’) that killing Zhaitan is the only way to stop the flow of undead. Pretty sure that’s what every other race, aside from maybe Sylvari, will say.

I’d say it was done entirely for the purposes of narrative structure. Which is more dramatic?:

1. Defeating an elder dragon (issues with the actual implementation of that fight notwithstanding)
2. Wading around in kiddie pool while a walking twig performs some ritual

I think most people (again, ignoring issues with the actual implementation of the Zhaitan battle) would agree that the dragon fight sounds more exciting. It’s what the plot has been working towards for 80 levels, after all. Having to go back to Orr to quest after running Arah and completing that goal would only have served to make the ending even more anticlimactic.

So yeah, the order might not have been logical, but it made for a better story. Obviously, it would have been nice if they had given some kind of reason why Orr had to be cleansed first. Even just a simple line like, “This ritual will weaken Zhaitan to the point we can defeat him.”

Urthona.3198:

Rhinzual.7861:

I still have no idea why the walking weed wanted to purify Orr first. If Zhaitan is the source of undead, then killing him should have been the top priority. I mean, what if all purifying Orr did was just alert Zhaitan that the place is cleansed? He could have just gone underground and started the whole corruption process all over again. My Charr even told Rytlock (in one of those voiced ‘cutscenes’) that killing Zhaitan is the only way to stop the flow of undead. Pretty sure that’s what every other race, aside from maybe Sylvari, will say.

I’d say it was done entirely for the purposes of narrative structure. Which is more dramatic?:

1. Defeating an elder dragon (issues with the actual implementation of that fight notwithstanding)
2. Wading around in kiddie pool while a walking twig performs some ritual

I think most people (again, ignoring issues with the actual implementation of the Zhaitan battle) would agree that the dragon fight sounds more exciting. It’s what the plot has been working towards for 80 levels, after all. Having to go back to Orr to quest after running Arah and completing that goal would only have served to make the ending even more anticlimactic.

So yeah, the order might not have been logical, but it made for a better story. Obviously, it would have been nice if they had given some kind of reason why Orr had to be cleansed first. Even just a simple line like, “This ritual will weaken Zhaitan to the point we can defeat him.”

That last line spoken in Traeherne’s voice would have to be done with emotion though.

As much as I dislike Trahearne, there is some merit for cleansing Orr first. What would have happened to all the corrupted kings and queens (the eyes) of Orr after Zhaitan had died? would they have just taken up his mantle as his most powerful servants? Killing Zhaitan before releasing his grip on his slaves might have set them loose as a sort of “ascalonian ghost.” I know that this theory is full of holes ( since you get attacked by multiple Eyes and a mouth of Zhaitan during the final storyline dungeon (which occurs after the cleansing of Orr), but its all I have to offer as an idea.

Nobody cares about the ritual, it can be a part of the story, sure. I just don’t like that a salad head with personalty of a two-by-four weasels his way into my story at the end and steals all of the credit for my efforts.

duh! cleaning?… the cleaning ritual is actually vegetables taking over Orr…

Execute Order 66…

There are other ways of dealing with Trahearne and removing him without making him face-heel turn. Most useful would be “hey, Orr is cleansed, I no longer have a need to act so I’m going to abdicate leadership to the Commander now”.

He’s a necromancer. It would be easy to justify him becoming evil as one who tries to control the true power of the undying, unknowing that it is the undying that are slowly corrupting his soul with the long term goal of controlling him and all other practitioners of the dark arts. I wish the game had FFA pvp so I could kill every last one of the evil necromancers.

Elthurien.8356:

He’s a necromancer. It would be easy to justify him becoming evil as one who tries to control the true power of the undying, unknowing that it is the undying that are slowly corrupting his soul with the long term goal of controlling him and all other practitioners of the dark arts. I wish the game had FFA pvp so I could kill every last one of the evil necromancers.

Necromancers aren’t inherently evil. Olias was very much more in tune with “dead things have to stay dead” and the idea that minions and such weren’t really bringing the dead back to life . . . just animating the flesh.

Then there’s . . . there’s Eve. Who was not evil. Just a lunatic.

Ehhh….he’s too boring of a protagonist. Nothing points out that he’d make a more interesting antagonist. Best just to kill him off or have him written off in any other way.

Relegate him to providing support (personnel, materiel, et cetera) to taking down the next Dragon. He’s already put the Pact forces at the disposal of the Commander as he requires them, this pretty much counts.