Guild Wars 2

I always love it when a Warrior or Guardian class says “well, it was easy for me, I solo’d mine. You just need to learn strategy or how to play your toon”. [sarcasm] Obviously, if so many people on non-tank-like toons are having problems…a problem likely exists.

To me, the key issue is that the balancing is simply wrong for any instance when played solo for the simple reason that the design balance expects the NPCs we’re given to actually have some sort of functioning AI whereas, 99% of the time, they don’t. Even if/when scaled up by the presence of a second RL player, the balance tips drastically, and the instances become far more achievable.

Having run the full story quest line twice, plus half of it a third time, I’d estimate that at least 50% of the instances cannot be completed solo unless you’re prepared to die at least 3 or 4 times (incurring significant repair costs that aren’t even remotely covered by the rewards for completing it) and you finish them with a sense of failure. You didn’t meet the quest objectives (die, retry, die, retry, die, retry, and eventually whittle them down to a point where you don’t die is not a strategy, it’s an allowed “exploit” mechanic we’re given to prevent us from tearing our hair out and giving up completely if we were forced to restart the instance from the beginning every time we died, it’s not even remotely going to make the player feel like they completed the quest) and you end up not having enjoyed the experience at all.

Even if you know in advance exactly what you’re going to face, specifically trait and equip yourself for it, overlevel yourself by a wide margin to have the extra perks of elite skills, etc), I’d still defy a L80 in full exotic endgame gear to make it through most of these instances without dying at least once. Yes, they’re that out of kilter for any of the classes I’ve played.

Almost all of those “guaranteed fail” instances I can think of become very doable if you partner with someone else because that other person actually contributes in a positive way to the way a fight progresses. I’ve helped many guildmates do their quests and usually managed to complete them without a wipe (one of us might die and some point, but almost never both). That tends to make me think that either we’re not intended to solo these (in which case tell us) or that the design is making assumptions about the performance of the NPCs that aren’t being met (unless the design is “have NPC play its idle animation and otherwise do nothing as swarms of enemy rip the player character to shreds” in which case I’d humbly suggest that you revisit your design because that sort of thing tends to frustrate players, not entertain them).

I’d also like to say that the whole “you have to fail at it a few times in order to figure out how to specially equip and trait yourself for it so you can go back and finally complete it” aspect of many personal storyline quests is not really appropriate. Sure, perhaps it’s fine for dungeons, but it’s a complete immersion killer for a personal storyline. If this were a “real” story, that story would end with your first death. I can’t think of any believable narrative where the hero is torn to shreds, miraculously resurrects him/herself, goes back, gets torn to shreds again, and rinses and repeats this process many times, killing a foe or two at each pass, until they finally whittle down the opposition to a managable size.

I don’t want the instances to be easy, but I do want them to be balanced such that they’re achievable solo (meaning you can complete them without dying if you’re a moderately good player). Easiest way to do that? Pretend that none of the NPCs you’ve given us are there and balance it for that (honestly, you’re not pretending since the NPCs are not helpful and are frequently a hindrance). Make sure that each class has a reasonable ability to solo the content at level and with level-appropriate gear without multiple resurrections being a certainty. Challenge us, sure, but not insurmountably so.

BTW…with my current third character I intend only to play the personal storyline until I reach the end of the Order of Whispers part (I’ve done the other 2 Orders). As soon as it merges with the other two story lines at Fort Trinity I’ll stop. There’s no way that I’m going to put myself through that torment again, either to progress this character to Arah or to do any of it on any future characters. I play to enjoy myself, and those quests aren’t fun.

Player.9621:

well i ripped throu the story right at launch <on a warrior

hey i have no problems on it on a ranger so far, but try it on an elementalist…

done the story on an ele and tbh the only part of the story that i really had trouble with was the skritt blow up the destoryer one which they have now nerfed most of it was done as a solo or a duo and always either at the lvl it said or one under it the main problem in some of them was thou the poor wording of objectives

I’m a lvl 76 Necromancer, and to tell you the truth, I haven’t had much trouble with the personal story quests at all. There are a few that I had to come back to after leveling a bit, but most of the time I was fine. I think most of it has to do with the fact that the actual goal of the personal story quest can be very, very confusing if it’s your first time trying it. On the quest where you have to defend Fort Trinity, I ran all over the place and pulled almost every risen in the whole fort, but I just couldn’t figure out what to do. By the time I figured out where I was supposed to go, all my friendly NPC’s were dead, and I had every single risen on the map chasing me around. I think if you know what you’re supposed to be doing, things get a lot easier, but of course, this is just going off of what I’ve experienced myself. There are definitely some difficulty issues, but we do need to remember this game is only about a month old. The larger bugs and issues are hard to get past, but I think it’ll get sorted out eventually.

zonkeroo.7918:

Player.9621:

well i ripped throu the story right at launch <on a warrior

hey i have no problems on it on a ranger so far, but try it on an elementalist…

done it on a mesmer
its more about knowing what to do, having decent appropriately runed gear and being over the ‘green level’ than sheer tank

Worked my way through the entire thing solo(cept for the arah part of course) on my thief, challenging and fun. I’m doing it again twice more with a guardian and elementalist on different story lines. Don’t nerf the story line Anet. Could use something nicer for the end reward though.. 3 greens? All the lvl 70+ zones give exotics for completion.

I think it’s definately an issue that some classes will have problems with some encounters. When I was doing the personal story on my guardian, I didn’t feel like I ever ran into any “This is just ludicrous” moments. Sure, there were times when I got killed and had to revive from checkpoint, but that was mainly the undead nonsense that screws everyone (Sudden spawning pack of risen brutes taking turns knocking me over)

On my engineer it was a different story. Without a doubt the worst of them was (Apologies for forgetting the stage name) confronting a Seraph traitor at the top of the monestary building in Queensdale. The only reason it was murderously difficult is you have to run up to him and talk to him (watch a cutscene), so when the fight starts you’re immediately in melee range of an elite and 2 or 3 extras. When I did that stage at the reccomended level I would usually get downed before I could even break away and try to get range. Logan was as useless as a bag of hammers, as usual. The other thing that made it difficult is you couldn’t kite the enemies as there was another pack of hostile mobs behind you.

I agree with what someone says, that anet needs to consider “Is this a fair encounter for all classes?” IMHO, starting a fight in melee range of an elite and multiple adds is a death sentance for any ranged class.

Many good thoughts on this thread. I agree quite a bit with Lori’s post above. As others have stated, they seem to have balanced the missions for someone well-versed in a melee class.

I sincerely hope that respecing isn’t required to pass a mission: the gold sinks are already incredibly tight. I also like the idea of deaths in story missions not breaking your armor for the same reason.

In my own experience, as a necro about 3/4ths through I’ve managed (we’re tougher than most clothies) but there have been times when the difficulty becomes less fun. What these times mostly have in common is a new mechanic that is introduced for a difficult battle/area without time to practice. (And the stupid wind puzzle of death in one mission.) These situations definitely seem like you need another person (which I’ve not done) or they expect you to die and try again (which is less fun).

Regardless of difficulty, “infinite waves of enemies” is a poor storytelling mechanic in any medium. My (first) claw island experience took forever because I’m a relatively low damage character and everything would respawn before I finished killing them and could move from a spot. Getting to Mira took quite a long time.

If I had one complaint about the game, it’s the personal story difficulty level. A good portion of the instances are just tuned way to difficult. I’ve had to help my wife on numerous occasions with her story, and it’s been a huge source of frustration for her.

I consider myself a fairly advanced player, skill wise. Even I have had some that taxed my playing ability to the limit and I still died multiple times. This morning I helped a guy on his thief story line (where you go rescue your friend and escort him out of town) he had died several times and was about ready to call it quits.

It’s also wildly unbalanced depending on your class, I have less trouble on a guardian/warrior, but struggle on casters/thief.

I finished my whole Storyline alone as a thief/human Sister path and had no problem at all finishing it. The only thing i think is lame i had to kite almost everytime, cause melee in this game(lets be honest) sucks.

I would have to add that finished many of my quests naked. I finsihed them by basically killing one monster – dying – coming back and killing one monseter – dyying – coming back etc.

I think part of the issue is that devs expect you to play and move as would like you to, rather than they way you have learned to play the game in all the open areas.

just tried to do “Victory or death”. the key word here is “tried”. The stupidity of this can not be understated. It’s like the devs just decided on a plan of " lets just throw mobs at them for 10 min while making them fight a boss at the same time then call it good".

Not one of the fights is melee friendly, not one, you melee-you die (repeatedly). There is no design or stradegy to any of the fights. Regardless of your fight style and class. It’s almost as if the devs lack any direction, every fight is just a test of every person’s frustration limit.

The last part of that fight is just over the top, three eyes- assorted veterans AND reg. mobs that keep re-spawning. really now, who is the brain surgeon that thought this on up?

Just a hint here, the word game implies that you would have fun playing it. this is not fun. everyone appreciates a challenge and some difficulty. But designing “fights” around the concept "you will die, it’s just a matter of how many times and what is your frustration threshold? if just nonesense to put it mildly.

Geeze, Battle or Claw Island… not even sure how far into it I was, but I was being asked to to find the lady on the beach and revive her… while being assaulted by wave after unending wave of undead? Seriously?

PLEASE revist the quests and make sure they are SOLOABLE as advertized. I play an Elementalist.

I have played till level 70+ quest on my warrior, 30+ quests on my thief and mesmer.
Even on my warrior some of those quests are hard, I did almost all of them solo. The amount of mobs you have to handle is ridiculous and the NPC is pretty much useless, they die even faster than I did.

For my warrior is not that bad, thief as well since I can stealth and run off to heal, but on my mesmer is terrible.

One of the quest require me to fight risen, first of all they are like on constant swift mode, they move so fast that is pretty impossible to kite, and also they will always without fail go for my mesmer rather than my clones, every single time. Seems like those risen are smarter than they look. The last part of the fight was a Abomination, forgot if it was veteran or just normal but I know that I can’t knock it back. So my only crowd control skill with greatsword is useless, and I was trying to kite a super fast abomination around, I died a few times while trying to kill it.

Some how I feel that story mode should be made easier, we the players are hero in our own story, do it doesn’t make sense that we have to fight naked in our story because the mobs are hard. Either make it easier or make the NPC more useful, they need to do some damage, a couple of seraph or vigil etc should have no problem kill some risen themself.

While I agree there are a few story quests that are overtuned (like way harder than any of the missions that happened before or happen after), I think the personal story is somewhat meant as a way to teach players how to play (besides telling the story).

You’re not supposed to die lots, if you do, think of what went wrong, and what you could do to prevent it on the next attempt. Try different weapon sets, or utility skills, or different ways to approach the encounter.

FiachSidhe.3654:

Like the insipid fight to defend the queen using that piece of crap Priory gun? Where you purposefully made the allies weak, and outnumbered, and an obnoxious amount of enemies, most people can’t defeat unless they outlevel the quest, or pull them into a corner one at a time, while the allies all lie dead after ten seconds.

Battle of Claw Island? Did you honestly believe this was fun?

The defending the Queen mission isn’t really hard if you took the time to read what the weapon exactly does. One of the skills heals you fully back, one other skill kills off an undead in like 1 attack. I’ll admit, it’s not the easiest quest out there, but it certainly isn’t overtuned.

Battle of Claw Island? Is that the one where you have to kill the dragon at the end? I had someone stuck on that quest last week, and helped him with it. When asking what part he was unable to finish, he said the dragon. Apparently he never tried using ranged on it.
Just one simple change to his approach would’ve made it perfectly do-able for him. Yet, so many people refuse to use their brains and read skill descriptions or think of how to overcome a challenge.

I’m a lvl 80 sylvari mesmer (staff/sword+focus) aligned with the Priory working my way through the orrian personal story (estate of decay next) and so far I have to say I didn’t find the personal story too dificult.

While there are some missions that have a large number of spawns, I somehow managed to pull through solo and without dying more than once or twice.

For those with problems in Claw Island I suppose the way to go is to afk and let the invulnerable npcs clear the way. I had to leave to do something unexpectedly and when I returned the courtyard was completely free of undead.

Anyway, the only mission I had difficulty with was during one of the betas with the lvl 10 norn quest where you have to kill a wolf icebrood – but since it wasn’t mentioned I guess it got toned down.

Still, if anyone needs help – another ally, even with scaling, makes it much easier – just pm me Ossë Oiomure, usually in either Ring of Fire or Far Shiverpeaks.

Milennin.4825:

The defending the Queen mission isn’t really hard if you took the time to read what the weapon exactly does.

That isn’t always possible, though. I’m not a fan of the humans so I can’t speak about that particular mission, but for example a sylvari who sides with the Priory for the final “choose your order” story-mission suddenly gets stuck with a special weapon for the final bossfight. Literally pulled out of nowhere, with no time to read skill popups nor time to familiarize yourself with it. If you go Vigil, you have that weapon for the entire mission. Thankfully, I’d played Vigil first and at least vaguely remembered how the bloody thing works.

Being stripped of one’s familiar weapon plus class abilities and immediately dropkicked into a nasty fight is just a recipe for annoyance.

Maybe Anet should follow their own cue in GW1, having a normal mode and hard mode?

I agree that the personal story was hard for me. My main is a human engineer and when I was doing the same quest the Enos referred to: Seeking Logan’s Aid I have died multiple times to a champ boss and have had no help from Logan in the fight. After the umpteenth death I have given up, was at the point of a rage-quit, but I like the game so I am waiting till I am 80 and have all the best gear, etc. I was upset at the repair costs etc. I may not even bother since the rewards as reported by the folks on various threads are meager or quickly out-leveled. I do not see the point in making myself fight so hard for so little.

One of the problems is – and has always been with GW – is that Anet developers seem to think that difficulty or challenge equals more mobs thrown at you at once rather than fewer but intelligent foe to defeat.

I would agree with many here that some of the personal story quests really do call for a pair, not a solo hero. Yes, a Guardian or a Warrior may have an easier time – d’uh, they’re generally in significantly higher armor, if for no other reason. A ranger has less difficulty than a mage of any sort, I’d also say. But some of quests do not allow for a partner (unless this has been changed recently?).

NPCs in personal story instances really might as well stay home, they are so useless. Even Caithe, a Firstborn who is supposed to be so talented, dies easily in instance. The only other NPC thus far I’ve seen who is remotely useful is Tybalt.

I do not go into a story instance unless I am at least two levels ahead of recommended, and frankly, I have begun to avoid the stories altogether. On the three characters I’m currently playing regularly (Sylvari ranger, Norn Guardian and Human Mesmer), only the human story seems to be thought out and, well, a coherent story. The others are essentially "go wrest a “magic” sword from that guy because we screwed up" (Sylvari) , “brawl, tidbit of story, brawl, tidbit of story, brawl” (Norn), and “golems gone mad, Inquest pops in for a fight, golems gone mad, Inquest pops in for a fight” (Asura). Add to that the difficulties (again, acceptable challenge does NOT equal more and more and more mobs to me), the unbelievable lag (of some), and the eventual discovery that the story line has diddly to do with the rest of the GW2 world – and I am not inclined to play that part of the game.

Thank you for the info, Mr Vaughn. Glad to hear this!

Why did you make NPC allies so terrible? Why do the enemies get a mob of super deadly assassins but you programmed our NPC allies to do jack damage and drop in three hits? What is the point? I’ve watched them a few times and they often just stand perfectly still! It’s ridiculous.

NPCs are terrible because if they weren’t, there’s a chance they could win without your intervention. The player has to be the one to swing the battle, or else what’s the point? And since the player can usually take out an entire army, as long as they come one by one, that means the NPCs have to be significantly weaker.

That said, I only got through Claw Island by abusing Entangle as a ranger. It held the mobs in place long enough for me to revive what’s-her-name, and helped slow mobs down just enough in the final encounter for me to survive by constantly running around on the battlements.

I have to agree that the way in which ANet make a mission ‘hard’ is extremely limited and balanced on a knife-edge between challenging and absurdly maddening. I rarely feel: “Right, if I knuckle down and think clever, I can do this”. Instead, it swings violently between me being more or less on autopilot and a sense of total despair as dozens of mobs close in.

One thing I was really satisfied with in the main world, which I’m surprised you didn’t utilise in the story, was making use of neutral NPCs. I enjoy provoking enemies to accidentally attack a veteran oakheart while trying to get to me, and then I sit back and watch the show. Please, please, please plan more missions around these sorts of ideas.

Focksbot.6798:

Why did you make NPC allies so terrible? Why do the enemies get a mob of super deadly assassins but you programmed our NPC allies to do jack damage and drop in three hits? What is the point? I’ve watched them a few times and they often just stand perfectly still! It’s ridiculous.

NPCs are terrible because if they weren’t, there’s a chance they could win without your intervention. The player has to be the one to swing the battle, or else what’s the point? And since the player can usually take out an entire army, as long as they come one by one, that means the NPCs have to be significantly weaker.

That said, I only got through Claw Island by abusing Entangle as a ranger. It held the mobs in place long enough for me to revive what’s-her-name, and helped slow mobs down just enough in the final encounter for me to survive by constantly running around on the battlements.

I have to agree that the way in which ANet make a mission ‘hard’ is extremely limited and balanced on a knife-edge between challenging and absurdly maddening. I rarely feel: “Right, if I knuckle down and think clever, I can do this”. Instead, it swings violently between me being more or less on autopilot and a sense of total despair as dozens of mobs close in.

One thing I was really satisfied with in the main world, which I’m surprised you didn’t utilise in the story, was making use of neutral NPCs. I enjoy provoking enemies to accidentally attack a veteran oakheart while trying to get to me, and then I sit back and watch the show. Please, please, please plan more missions around these sorts of ideas.

You’re right of course, and I understand their intent. Like you said, the execution is awful though. Considering the strength of the opposition in many of these missions.

Isn’t there a way to make these quests challenging, without being completely insulting to our intelligence? If they suck, to prevent us from having them fight for us, why bother? What’s the point in having them, if all they are, is window dressing.