Guild Wars 2

This is a common trope for video games these days. If an NPC character ‘needs to die’, the player is locked out of the game by a cutscene where the enemy ends up killing the NPC without the player being able to do anything to stop it.

It seems like it would be a great dramatic effect, but it’s not. Doubly so if the player was actually winning the fight easily, then suddenly the boss decides to one shot your buddy? What? It’s annoying, and breaks the immersion completely.

If you must have an NPC killed off, stop using the cutscene cop-out. You have coded in plenty of brutal control effects for the game. Use them. Immobilize and stun our characters, knockback, pull, launch… whatever you need to do to keep our characters from saving the NPC, but don’t just suddenly enter a locked cutscene where we have no reasonable way of knowing why we were suddenly so useless.

Or you could’ve done something like this with Tybalt:

Claw Island gets attacked, lots of enemies come. One of them will indefinitely hit Tybalt, PC still has total control of the scene. Its a grievous mortal wound, but Tybalt says he’ll soldier on. As the battle continues he becomes increasingly weakened, and at the finale, he opts to stay behind because he knows he won’t make it. See what that would do? You actually give the player to indulge in Tybalt’s bravery over a period of time, and the question whether ‘he will make it’ will linger in your mind. He can still die 100% afterwards, you won’t need to make extra scenarios.

I’d like to direct you to my favorite gaming moment in which a main character in the story died. This was more emotional than any scene GW2 produced. The character in question was fleshed out well over a period of time, and the PC is never taken away from the action and impending doom of the character until the very end, where nothing more could have been done.

Actually, a more pressing question is: What did you hope to achieve in killing off a heap of characters players don’t really know about. Characters that were killed off were so paper thin, the player has no investment in them, thus, having elaborate cutscenes to show off their deaths is completely trivial.

Mr Vaughn, have you played Mass Effect 2? If we only dissect the one aspect of the game that deals with character deaths, I think the same could have been done in GW2, and it’d have been a lot more successful as a storytelling tool.

Your starting companion could be someone who joins the orders with you, your decisions could cause this friendship to strengthen or to fall apart, and somewhere towards the end they’d be put into a mission together (he could replace Tonn pretty much), and dies. We’d end up having a whole heap of story missions to develop a connection to this character, and become emotionally invested in him.

I always thought the barmaid in the human commoner’s story would end up joining an Order, probably the Vigil. If we joined the Vigil too, then we’d have her with us on some training missions at first, or if not, we’d meet again when the Pact was formed and she’d be there at the end.

Jeffrey – how about Tybalt or someone like that refuses to budge, saying he’ll hold them off, and keeps chiding you to escape? The cutscene of the ship leaving then has your character looking back and seeing him swarmed?

The player could fight on until doomsday but they’ll never be able to save Tybalt because he insists on covering your (eventual and unavoidable) retreat. Make him immune to push/pulling.

Of course, the radical in me says that you really need to start designing the game around possible player intervention. Surely, whatever present limitations, as a game designer you must have your eyes set on a future where players can crucially affect the story by the way they react to certain events?

I can tell you that one of the most memorable parts of GW2 for me so far has been when someone asked me a random question and a little timer fuse appeared at the top, indicating I had only a short time to answer. I chose the wrong answer, and they said, “Never mind” and disappeared. It was obviously some sort of code word that they wanted, and I missed the opportunity to access that content. I wasn’t annoyed – it was one of the most curious and exciting things to have happened so far. I love the idea of ‘what ifs’ and various secrets that might make me want to replay parts of the game.

In the most simplest concepts, you could layer an AoE attack. If NPC Bob needs to be killed by Boss Badguy, you could accomplish the same effect in a completely unstoppable effect.

There are abilities that Bosses have that block players from attacking or interrupting them, various scripted events as part of the event sequence. These are hardcoded into the event, and players cannot stop them. During this time, the boss could target the NPC who’s got it coming, and fire off the kill shot.

If it’s a melee boss, it could be a sword throw or something. If it’s a caster boss, it could be an AoE explosion that just happens to hit the poor NPC for much more than it hit you (because there was an invisible kill script happening at the same time).

The point is that there are creative alternatives, and I think many of us would like the more immersive experience of being there and active when our NPC dies, not watching through a window.

I just finished the Claw Island quest last night. I was actually satisfied with the Tybalt scene.

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

Also, a point I forgot earlier—a cutscene means that we know that the player sees the important part. We had an issue with some steps where the player would look the wrong way at the wrong time, and have no idea what just happened.

there’s a problem though. when you kill an NPC during a dialogue cutscene, it just looks weird. like the battle of claw island.

I was surprised by just how many NPCs died over the course of the story.

But I can sort of understand why it was done, from a storytelling perspective. I mean, we’re supposed to understand that fighting dragons is serious business, right? And how else to convey the sense of destruction but by making the character feel the loss of so many friends?

played as a charr.
Half the people get introduced just to die literally the next mission. Which is kind of absolutely bunk. After about the third NPC death I join the next mission and immediately say to my friend.

“hey see that male guy with the dog? $20 says he dies this mission”
havent you just met him?
“yeah, that’s why he’s next on the chopping block”

Lo and behold.

RoyHarmon.5398:

I was surprised by just how many NPCs died over the course of the story.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I played my storyline near-parallel to my wife’s storyline, and after seeing Forgal, Apatia, Tonn, Zott, and Kekt meet untimely deaths, I’m afraid to get attached to any NPCs. I’m avoiding my Priory character because I don’t want Sieran to die (and I know, based on the deaths of almost every other likeable NPC, that it is inevitable). Honestly, I’m almost afraid to play my norn and asura characters, based on the list above.

But I can sort of understand why it was done, from a storytelling perspective. I mean, we’re supposed to understand that fighting dragons is serious business, right? And how else to convey the sense of destruction but by making the character feel the loss of so many friends?

i think it’s less about the loss of friends, and more about “this is war, people die”. the mission where you scout an orrian mansion is a great example of that. it’s a very well designed mission, and conveys the sense of war really well.

I’d rather you just stop killing NPCs in the most contrived ways imaginable, that can be seen a mile away and happen so often later in the story that it became a running joke with my friends when we were playing. Very poor attempts and garnering emotional response from the player that just felt borderline insulting, especially as “your” character apparantly gives a kitten about these people when the player has usually at most been in about two missions with them, hasn’t visibly developed any connection whatsoever and yet is best buds with them.

The worst part of all is the only characters I actually want to die don’t.. and they are the only ones that have garnered any emotional reaction at all, throughout the whole game. Albeit an unintend reaction of disgust and hatred (or, indeed, boredom) for these so called heroes.

I really, REALLY miss the stories of GW1 and its chapters.

I don’t think anything conveyed the sense of war in the game at all, because of engine/gameplay limitations no doubt. But really, why even try and tell a story about a great war when the game just makes it look stupid (oh ho, our great tank coloum of THREE TANKS will surely stop the horde, just as a random example), I honestly the story should have been written from the outset with a focus on very small scale heroic encounters at all times, with tales from the front being overheard if the whole war thing needed to go on. And the less said about the focus on non player characters as the real heroes the better.

Karadoth.8370:

[….]

I really, REALLY miss the stories of GW1 and its chapters.

“RURIK!!! NOOOO!!!” – Guild Wars 1

RoyHarmon.5398:

I was surprised by just how many NPCs died over the course of the story.

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I played my storyline near-parallel to my wife’s storyline, and after seeing Forgal, Apatia, Tonn, Zott, and Kekt meet untimely deaths, I’m afraid to get attached to any NPCs. I’m avoiding my Priory character because I don’t want Sieran to die (and I know, based on the deaths of almost every other likeable NPC, that it is inevitable). Honestly, I’m almost afraid to play my norn and asura characters, based on the list above.

But I can sort of understand why it was done, from a storytelling perspective. I mean, we’re supposed to understand that fighting dragons is serious business, right? And how else to convey the sense of destruction but by making the character feel the loss of so many friends?

I actually made a thread about this very phenomenon, but nobody seemed to care about discussing it. Which is surprising, because I’ve seen plenty of people complain about it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CutsceneIncompetence

I absolutely loathe this trope. This game seems to force you to do really stupid things, and stand idly by and watch easily preventable events from going down. It’s bad enough I have to suspend my disbelief over the notion that I can return from the dead a billion and one times, but my mentor cannot after claw island.

Right, cause the Rurik thing is totally analogous to the constant deaths of your companion every few missions. He was more of a Trahearne character in the early stages. Same goes for Togo or Kormir, they actually had an impact on the story and stuck around long enough for it to mean something when they died, even the few you encounter in your racial story don’t really stick around long enough for you to develope any sort of connection that might mean you are even mildly perturbed when they die.

It basically feels like you are Dirty Harry (or the Simpons parody thereof) or something, every partner you get is almost certain to die.

Semi-serious now. :P

Really though, I think the killing off of characters can get rather old, rather quick. I have no emotional attachment to the NPCs now because I’m running on the assumption they will die. Going through story missions with my friend, we sit there and place bets on who is going to die.

Yes, it is war, and we suffer losses; it would have some meaning if there is more immersion. Another user mentioned the ability to fight with the deaths, but use scripts that guarantee the NPCs death, so that way the player can really feel/see the loss and that the efforts are futile.

RE: point about us dying all the time and NPCs dying and never to come back – they can add in a thing where if you are killed by Zhaitan minions, you cannot come back. OR what they can do is at the very start, you could include an extra mission where you get an item, or a blessing from the gods that means you have a chance to come back BUT there is only enough for YOU and because you are the hero, you have the chance to revive, but the NPCs don’t.

I think it would be nice if we got to see more of the NPCs before their untimely ends, whether it be in dynamic events, renowned hearts, or just extra missions in between. We can get a chance to forge a stronger emotional attachment to the character, so when they sacrifice themselves for your sake, you have a stronger attachment.

But, back to the original point of the post: Cut scenes for NPC combat deaths. I think the way GW is coded now, it isn’t something that is possible to do without flaws/bugs/exploits. Yes, it is something that can be done in future, whether it is with an engine change, or even how they script the events, it isn’t impossible to implement. I really do like the idea of the “futile save” to protect an NPC, your enemy can knock your character back (negates all other spells) then one-hit kill the NPC. Regarding camera angles with missing important information, you can narrow the depth of field; similar to how when you fight Zhaitan's eye and the camera zooms out completely so you have full view of the room. Possible, just difficult to implement.

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

For human characters, Beirne is the very first NPC they meet. So, granted, he doesn’t mean anything to other species, but we didn’t pull him out of thin air just to kill him for this step. : )

I’ve played one human character up to 77, another up to 52, and 3 others up to around 10.
I have no idea who the hell “Beirne” is.

Jeffrey Vaughn.1793:

Also, a point I forgot earlier—a cutscene means that we know that the player sees the important part. We had an issue with some steps where the player would look the wrong way at the wrong time, and have no idea what just happened. Forgetting I have a rifle, or magic powers, or that I’m fast and skilled enough to kill dragons, but not this specific enemy.

It would be great if the “important part” of the cutscene you write, didn’t reduce my character to a stationary, sloth-like idiot, just to push your plot forward, or shoehorn some lazy plot device to evoke emotion. Only the only emotion the player is likely to have, is yelling at their monitor in frustration.

There is a reason Yoda’s death had more impact than Obi Wan’s. Our mentor doesn’t teach us, and we barely know them.

I have yet to see a single scene, in which the player just looks the wrong way. They’re all involving a minute or two of me standing there watching as something stupid happens.

Like the sacrifice on Claw Island? Seriously? I love how that many people just couldn't close the doors, or fight their way back to the ship. We killed a dragon, but the left over zombies are a problem....right

So much of GW2’s story is so painfully bad, it comes off like a 15 year old’s fanfiction.

The thing that bugs me the most is that countless nameless NPC’s die over the course of the personal story and yet our characters are forced to be upset over the demise of people who, more often than not, they’ve only encountered on a handful of missions or even just met moments before.

With that said, I do think some of the deaths were beautifully done. A mission death involving the Krait in the latter portion of the personal story is a prime example of a death done well. It was unexpected and very tragic and showed the true horrors of war and bittersweet victories.

After a bit of consideration, I think if a death has to happen in a cutscene, it should be done in a way that had the player had control there still wouldn’t have been anything they could do. That at least takes the whole “but I was RIGHT THERE!” element out of it. So no more boss we just kicked the kitten of running over and one hitting someone whilst we stare on aghast. A last, dying curse, a wilding swing mid combat, anything butkittende kitten I walk over and kill you now even though your friends easily beat me.

I guess the “arrow” one, from the hidden sniper for example, is the sort of style in which it should be handled in all cases. If it must be done.

Players have a number of tools to break story sequences, intentionally or otherwise.

Here’s a thought: Let them. Add more story branches. If I work hard enough, I should be able to haul Tybalt’s kitten to the ship and continue adventuring with him. This is / was supposedly going to be a game with a lot of player choice, but almost none of the choices matter in the long run. Change that. Look to games like Mass Effect (barring the kitteny ending of the series) where choices you make can follow you and haunt you throughout the rest of the game.

I would really love to see some of the cutscene triggers for the final battle with Zhaitan removed, if technically possible. I love the sequences themselves, but I hate that its not happening real time. The moment the game cuts to cutscene, you lose control of your character and camera. Seeing the Claw of Jormaq crash to the ground in real time looks amazing! I would love to see the same with Zhaitan.

Yes, I realise there is always a risk that a player could be looking the other way, but I’d say in the case of Zhaitan take that risk. Or draw their attention to it in some other way… by for example, allowing the players to activate the airship’s laser themselves, so they are looking at Zhaitan as it happens.

I can for the most part understand why these are done, but the Beirne one was problematic for me because my character should have had an equally significant emotional attachment to Crusader Deborah.

At least for some of us, Deborah was our sister.

So it was bizarre for me that my character was apparently just standing there watching for several seconds of fighting without making any move to intervene.

I think if this is going to happen (and I can see why it needs to,) the whole thing needs a quicker pace. It needs to be so fast that another person literally couldn’t intervene. I realize watching first Deborah and then Beirne fight with the thing made his death more heroic, but the pacing also increasingly raised the question of why the player character didn’t get off a single shot during the whole fray. The cutscene is significantly longer than most people’s real reaction times, let alone a supposedly hardened battle veteran.

It was probably especially glaring for those of us whose characters had been given a very significant reason we should respond instinctively to Deborah being in jeopardy, and felt a bit sociopathic when we couldn’t.

TL;DR: I get what the writers were going for here, I think the execution may require some rethinking for next time.

Anakita Snakecharm.4360:

I can for the most part understand why these are done, but the Beirne one was problematic for me because my character should have had an equally significant emotional attachment to Crusader Deborah.

At least for some of us, Deborah was our sister.

So it was bizarre for me that my character was apparently just standing there watching for several seconds of fighting without making any move to intervene.

I think if this is going to happen (and I can see why it needs to,) the whole thing needs a quicker pace. It needs to be so fast that another person literally couldn’t intervene. I realize watching first Deborah and then Beirne fight with the thing made his death more heroic, but the pacing also increasingly raised the question of why the player character didn’t get off a single shot during the whole fray. The cutscene is significantly longer than most people’s real reaction times, let alone a supposedly hardened battle veteran.

It was probably especially glaring for those of us whose characters had been given a very significant reason we should respond instinctively to Deborah being in jeopardy, and felt a bit sociopathic when we couldn’t.

TL;DR: I get what the writers were going for here, I think the execution may require some rethinking for next time.

Execution only has pay off if what lead to the scene in question had depth. To me, the death of the crusader NPC was dumbfounding seeing as there is little or no material in the that made me give a kitten about who they are in the first place. Even if the cutscene was an full motion video, Hollywood quality, I would still not care.

Hahaha.. I didn’t even realise thats who Crusader Deborah was and it was one of MY story choices…

Yep, if you interact with Deborah before the combat portions of those missions start, your character refers to her as “Sis,” so she’s definitely meant to be the same person.