Guild Wars 2

So one of them’s a Norn, that makes sense.

The second’s a Tengu…ok, that could happen.

And the third one is…a Sylvari?

Wait a minute…why do Sylvari always have to be in the spotlights? Especially here, where it makes no sense whatsoever? Aren’t there some Iron Legion Charr that, you know, more or less built the Black Citadel that could easily do a better job than a random plant? I can totally see where the Norn comes from when he says he will show the Sylvari what real blacksmithing is like.

The Sylvari are put into the hero’s position a bit too often. Please tone it down in the upcoming campaigns, and share the spotlight equally among the races.

What did they make anyway? The pact never saw new armour.

I was expecting uniform… uniforms on the soldiers who joined the pact all wearing pact colours.

It’s like they were put there and forgotten.

If Im not mistaken the sylvari smith is Occam from the green knight storyline that made Bercilak’s armor of immortality (while all armor pieces are worn). Traherne wanted the best so I think it makes sence.

lougar.3698:

If Im not mistaken the sylvari smith is Occam from the green knight storyline that made Bercilak’s armor of immortality (while all armor pieces are worn). Traherne wanted the best so I think it makes sence.

If you need to wear every piece for it to be seen as the best, that could be a design flaw.

The blacksmiths just happened to be ones encountered in the PS for different races (not sure if Izu was in a racial step)
And for the amount of Sylvari, they’re the ones immune to Zhaitan, so the more of them as leaf shields, the better

Mystic Starfish.2586:

The blacksmiths just happened to be ones encountered in the PS for different races (not sure if Izu was in a racial step)
And for the amount of Sylvari, they’re the ones immune to Zhaitan, so the more of them as leaf shields, the better

I think the Close the Eye mission shows that Sylvari are not immune to Zhaitan. Not to mention there’s also the potential of The Nightmare Court being influenced mentally by big Z, but the idea that a plant-based race being immune to corruption of a magic-eating Elder Dragon is just absurd. If they truly are the only real immune species, that just shot them all way past Mary Sue territory.

lougar.3698:

If Im not mistaken the sylvari smith is Occam from the green knight storyline that made Bercilak’s armor of immortality.

So a creature from a race that exists for 25 years at best, outclasses all the smithing skills of the Charr and Asura combined? And the first armor he/she/it makes, makes the wearer immortal?

If so, is there any reason to have any non-Sylvari around? Because if they can make immortality armor and clease all of Orr with a single sword, why would they even need the other races?

Rhinzual.7861:

If they truly are the only real immune species, that just shot them all way past Mary Sue territory.

So true.

myself

The Sylvari are put into the hero’s position a bit too often. Please tone it down in the upcoming campaigns, and share the spotlight equally among the races.

Sylvari are (presently, at least) immune to dragon corruption by virtue of it just straight up killing them rather than turning them into one of their minions, so it’s not really getting off scott-free as it’s just safer for them to go into the heart of the matter because they won’t come back and kill everyone else. Also I’m pretty sure Bercilak’s armor was not Occam’s first piece—that he’s already an accredited smith is why the Nightmare Court blackmailed him into making it in the first place.

I don’t see how it doesn’t make sense for a Sylvari to potentially be a good enough blacksmith that Trahearne would take him on for the job, though. Not every Sylvari is young and stupid and newly born—in fact, the more important/reoccurring Sylvari in the story are usually notably part of older groups. I don’t think Occam has a stated age, but there’s no reason to believe he can’t be maybe 10, 12 years old—which is plenty of time to master a craft you’re dedicated to.

It’s also possible for Sylvari to learn, intrinsically, the basics of a trade/combat/etc in the Dream and thus be born with rudimentary understanding of it—really not far from if you were to start learning something during your childhood, because their state in the Dream effectively is their childhood, even if they have a poorer explicit memory of it than we do.

(I also take “best smiths in all of Tyria” with a grain of salt since between him and Izu, Trahearne was pretty clearly just picking from the pool of people he already knew and trying to woo them into helping him.)

The Sylvari being a race of Mary-Sues? Of course they are, just listen to the dialog of other races about them. Except the Charr who apparently mildly distrust them, everyone and their mother loves those salad heads.
The game is about to bring the races together so they can defeat the dragons. This fact makes the Mary-Sue status of the Sylvari even more obvious as no one dislikes or distrusts them. And it’s not just the other playable races, even the freaking Kodan up in the north like them, one of them even says they are his favorites.
That’s not enough? The only characters liked by all other characters around them, who are needed to get the others working together? Caithe and Trahearne.
Oh yeah, they are also immune to physical dragon corruption and have a ridiculous high birthrate. And to top it off, in the 25 years they are around, they managed to aquire high ranking positions in all orders of Tyria. If I would live in Tyria, I would be very suspicious. But no, everyone loves them.
“You don’t win friends with salad” a wise young man once said. But in Tyria you apparently do.

They’re the new kids on the block for this game.

Of course Anet wants to show them off at every opportunity. Mary Sues and Deus Ex Machina up the wazoo.

It got stale quickly…

Personally I think that for the next Elder Dragon coming up, all the other races should team up and plantnap all the Sylvari and send them off to face said Elder Dragon and it’s minions. Either they kill it, or it cleanses Tyria of the green menace – either way the other races win!

Oglaf.1074:

They’re the new kids on the block for this game.

Of course Anet wants to show them off at every opportunity. Mary Sues and Deus Ex Machina up the wazoo.

It got stale quickly…

Personally I think that for the next Elder Dragon coming up, all the other races should team up and plantnap all the Sylvari and send them off to face said Elder Dragon and it’s minions. Either they kill it, or it cleanses Tyria of the green menace – either way the other races win!

When I read ‘the green menace’ my first thought was of the Orks of Warhammer: 40,000

athuria.2751:

It’s also possible for Sylvari to learn, intrinsically, the basics of a trade/combat/etc in the Dream and thus be born with rudimentary understanding of it—really not far from if you were to start learning something during your childhood, because their state in the Dream effectively is their childhood, even if they have a poorer explicit memory of it than we do.

Learning a craft in 25 years is possible yes. However, as a race, how can they possibly master a craft other races took centuries to develop, in just 25 years? Just through the dream? Even though they remember it worse than humans do their childhood?

But that in itself wouldn’t be so bad, if they weren’t showcased as the best of everything at every oppertunity. Just think about it:

-They can predict the future.
-They provide the only level-headed DE member.
-They have a magic sword that can cleanse an entire nation, where other races have no above average items (even the Priory ones are much less ‘uber’).
-They provide the overall hero of the game.
-They’re immune to corruption.
-They got the best blacksmith in the game.
-They can instantly match any scholar for intelligence.
-Their greatest hero can go from a simple scholar to a general in a flash.
-etc.

Seriously, they need a character flaw, a ‘weakness’. The only Sylvari that’s well done is Seiran. She’s curious in gets herself in trouble because she doesn’t understand things as well as the elder races do. She’s still learning the great lessons of life, with a major moment on Claw Island.

No other Sylvari has that. They’re only 25 years, yet they’re already ‘complete’. It’s annoying.

ThiBash.5634:

athuria.2751:

It’s also possible for Sylvari to learn, intrinsically, the basics of a trade/combat/etc in the Dream and thus be born with rudimentary understanding of it—really not far from if you were to start learning something during your childhood, because their state in the Dream effectively is their childhood, even if they have a poorer explicit memory of it than we do.

Learning a craft in 25 years is possible yes. However, as a race, how can they possibly master a craft other races took centuries to develop, in just 25 years? Just through the dream? Even though they remember it worse than humans do their childhood?

But that in itself wouldn’t be so bad, if they weren’t showcased as the best of everything at every oppertunity. Just think about it:

-They can predict the future.
-They provide the only level-headed DE member.
-They have a magic sword that can cleanse an entire nation, where other races have no above average items (even the Priory ones are much less ‘uber’).
-They provide the overall hero of the game.
-They’re immune to corruption.
-They got the best blacksmith in the game.
-They can instantly match any scholar for intelligence.
-Their greatest hero can go from a simple scholar to a general in a flash.
-etc.

Seriously, they need a character flaw, a ‘weakness’. The only Sylvari that’s well done is Seiran. She’s curious in gets herself in trouble because she doesn’t understand things as well as the elder races do. She’s still learning the great lessons of life, with a major moment on Claw Island.

No other Sylvari has that. They’re only 25 years, yet they’re already ‘complete’. It’s annoying.

If Trahearne didn’t suck so hard at combat, then I could give him the nickname of Lord Kaldor Draigo and it’d be spot on, I swear.

I should mention The Soundless faction that is relatively small in the Sylvari starting area. They willfully cut themselves off from The Dream, live in small areas and request help (Heart Renown) and some NPC chatter that happens randomly is some of them lamenting that loved ones left them and went back to the main faction, but another Soundless immediately telling the person to not get upset and that not all can handle the sudden change, that if she comes back, then all the better. They come across as very moderate and don’t hold it against Sylvari who choose to remain as part of The Dream, for what little interaction I had with them in the letters and such, I genuinely liked.

“However, as a race, how can they possibly master a craft other races took centuries to develop, in just 25 years?”

… What?

That other races have taken the centuries to develop a craft is precisely why a Sylvari could learn it and master it, just like newer generations of said other races. People have already experimented and fine-tuned it and passed their knowledge down to apprentices, put it in instructional texts, etc to create a wealth of references that can be pulled from. It’s literally learning the exact same way people in real life learn complex trades. And individuals who pick up these skills can bring them into their society and continue the cycle of education, allowing it to spread amongst themselves—either directly or less overtly (and with much less control) through the dream.

Also, I was referring to knowing basic skills in the dream to say that they are not born with literally no knowledge (nor did I suggest they learn it just from the dream), and that the years a Sylvari is alive is not a full indicator of all that they know because they have a stage in their life of consciousness before they are born. Newly born Sylvari aren’t the equivalent of new born humans or Charr or Asura, they’re the equivalent of a late-teen/early adult (if a very sheltered one). Their oldest aren’t rambunctious 25 year olds, they’re more like in their 40s.

A lot of Sylvari around the open world do have attitudes still similar to Seiran, too, if you go around and talk to them. And it’s an attitude that stems from ignorance of the world around them as, so of course Sylvari who are much older and have spent years traveling and adventuring and being in the world won’t share the same wide-eyed perspective—because they’ve had the time and gained the experience that culls that ignorance.

athuria.2751:

“However, as a race, how can they possibly master a craft other races took centuries to develop, in just 25 years?”

… What?

That other races have taken the centuries to develop a craft is precisely why a Sylvari could learn it and master it, just like newer generations of said other races. People have already experimented and fine-tuned it and passed their knowledge down to apprentices, put it in instructional texts, etc to create a wealth of references that can be pulled from. It’s literally learning the exact same way people in real life learn complex trades. And individuals who pick up these skills can bring them into their society and continue the cycle of education, allowing it to spread amongst themselves—either directly or less overtly (and with much less control) through the dream.

Also, I was referring to knowing basic skills in the dream to say that they are not born with literally no knowledge (nor did I suggest they learn it just from the dream), and that the years a Sylvari is alive is not a full indicator of all that they know because they have a stage in their life of consciousness before they are born. Newly born Sylvari aren’t the equivalent of new born humans or Charr or Asura, they’re the equivalent of a late-teen/early adult (if a very sheltered one). Their oldest aren’t rambunctious 25 year olds, they’re more like in their 40s.

A lot of Sylvari around the open world do have attitudes still similar to Seiran, too, if you go around and talk to them. And it’s an attitude that stems from ignorance of the world around them as, so of course Sylvari who are much older and have spent years traveling and adventuring and being in the world won’t share the same wide-eyed perspective—because they’ve had the time and gained the experience that culls that ignorance.

Trahearne apparently never learned how to be effective and combat. Plus, when ‘a lot older’ means 25 years at absolute best, it’s not a very good example.

Charr and Asura basically are the most advanced species. The Charr went from under Flame Legion opression in GW1 while having at best well-made swords to GW2 sporting tanks, steam engines, smelters, rifles, stock race cars powered by a steam engine (near the entrance of Black Citadel), one of the NPCs near the stairwell leading up to the three Tribune Offices even speaks of using portable lightning as an alternative to Steam. This random Charr (who the noble option tells him to find out more stuff to better present his case) discovered that lightning could be harnessed into electricity. Another in the giant smelter speaks of a poison that came from mining silver, how it looks like silver and how deadly it is when applied, mercury basically. Another near the stock race car NPC talks about replacing the iron metal entirely with a new alloy that is stronger than iron and is lighter.

The Asura have their gates, golems, weather control prototypes, etc. I haven’t gotten far as an Asura so someone else who has can go into detail a lot better.

So I really fail to see how the Sylvari are actually better than the Asura or the Charr. The blacksmith who made armor of invincibility? Yeah the armor works fine until a single piece is removed and that’s a pretty hefty design flaw. Plus the lore on the wiki states that the heavier plant armor isn’t so much crafted and worn as grown on top of each individual sylvari, whether it’s always the case or not is up in the air, likely the latter.

Honestly I lucked out on Trahearne’s AI and he’s been a shockingly competent NPC through my story, so I can’t really say one way or the other on his combat ability since his AI (and most NPC AIs, really) seems to be all over the place for people. Lore-wise, at least, he is supposed to be a competent fighter.

And no, on a whole the Sylvari are not as technologically advanced as other races, but that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have picked up on the advances that other races have discovered. Blacksmithing is, by this point, an old and established trade. It’s been used as an armour and weapon making technique for centuries. There should be more than enough information for a Sylvari to draw from to be just as competent with technique as other races, even if they haven’t gotten to the point of innovating past that (because that’s what advancement is—it’s innovating, not just learning skills). An individual Sylvari, specially, could be just as proficient in it as any Norn, Charr, or Asura, especially from the point of providing an already developed good (weapons and armour) rather than creating a whole new idea. You’ll note that the brand new and innovative stuff in the Pact (like airships) actually has little to do with the Sylvari as all.

Also Sylvari armour goes both ways—they either grow it on their body or they shape it from existing plants (the Wardenhurst tree in the beginning of Caledon Forest is a good place to look for that). Occam’s armor set he made is quite clearly crafted, not something Bercilak grew on himself (I’m also willing to bet its weak point, which you learn because he left a journal out stating its weakness, was intentional given the only reason the armour was crafted was because he was under blackmail from the Nightmare Court).

athuria.2751:

Honestly I lucked out on Trahearne’s AI and he’s been a shockingly competent NPC through my story, so I can’t really say one way or the other on his combat ability since his AI (and most NPC AIs, really) seems to be all over the place for people. Lore-wise, at least, he is supposed to be a competent fighter.

And no, on a whole the Sylvari are not as technologically advanced as other races, but that doesn’t mean that they couldn’t have picked up on the advances that other races have discovered. Blacksmithing is, by this point, an old and established trade. It’s been used as an armour and weapon making technique for centuries. There should be more than enough information for a Sylvari to draw from to be just as competent with technique as other races, even if they haven’t gotten to the point of innovating past that (because that’s what advancement is—it’s innovating, not just learning skills). An individual Sylvari, specially, could be just as proficient in it as any Norn, Charr, or Asura, especially from the point of providing an already developed good (weapons and armour) rather than creating a whole new idea. You’ll note that the brand new and innovative stuff in the Pact (like airships) actually has little to do with the Sylvari as all.

Also Sylvari armour goes both ways—they either grow it on their body or they shape it from existing plants (the Wardenhurst tree in the beginning of Caledon Forest is a good place to look for that). Occam’s armor set he made is quite clearly crafted, not something Bercilak grew on himself (I’m also willing to bet its weak point, which you learn because he left a journal out stating its weakness, was intentional given the only reason the armour was crafted was because he was under blackmail from the Nightmare Court).

I never kept a Sylvari past level 4 at best when I discovered that you pretty much fight Risen from the get-go and only a few Order and personal story missions don’t involve Risen. I nearly lost my mind fighting packs of Risen in the second 21-30 mission as my Charr when electing to aid the Vigil, but dealing with Risen before even level 10 made me hit the delete button faster than you’d think was possible.

Hahaha! Yeah, you get introduced to them quickly as a Sylvari—Zhaitan it a very person fight for them. I don’t mind them in parts of the open world and picked two of the bio questions that did’t involve any risen, but when I got trashed on the first 20-30 mission (which was also aiding the Vigil, incidentally) I knew I would quickly find them to be the bane of my existence.

I can barely stand Orr long enough to do my story steps now.

Edit: Also having to wield Caladbolg against them was literally the worst thing, so you saved yourself that headache. :U

I think calling what Occam does “blacksmithing” is kind of just a loose description, considering the fact that the guy does make enchanted invincibility armor OUT OF PLANTS… So it doesn’t follow that the Sylvari practice smithing in a similar fashion to the Norn, Asura, or Charr and therefore don’t even need to learn from those races how to do it. The Sylvari could have just intuited a way to make enchanted GROWN armor and weapons. Sylvari smithing seems more like agricultural artifice to me than fiery forging.

i think Occam pretty specifically says he forged the green armour using his favourite hammer (or at the very least hammered it into the shape he wanted) …just because it looks like it’s made of plant matter doesn’t mean it actually is

Rhinzual.7861:

I never kept a Sylvari past level 4 at best when I discovered that you pretty much fight Risen from the get-go and only a few Order and personal story missions don’t involve Risen. I nearly lost my mind fighting packs of Risen in the second 21-30 mission as my Charr when electing to aid the Vigil, but dealing with Risen before even level 10 made me hit the delete button faster than you’d think was possible.

Ah, that’s too bad. The Risen are basically only small part of the first Sylvari area. There’s a lot of fun and wacky stuff there too, and you basically don’t need to see the Risen unless you go into their part of the map.

Gilosean.3805:

Rhinzual.7861:

I never kept a Sylvari past level 4 at best when I discovered that you pretty much fight Risen from the get-go and only a few Order and personal story missions don’t involve Risen. I nearly lost my mind fighting packs of Risen in the second 21-30 mission as my Charr when electing to aid the Vigil, but dealing with Risen before even level 10 made me hit the delete button faster than you’d think was possible.

Ah, that’s too bad. The Risen are basically only small part of the first Sylvari area. There’s a lot of fun and wacky stuff there too, and you basically don’t need to see the Risen unless you go into their part of the map.

I ran through the first two Sylvari zones as my Charr Thief, I ran into the Krait when filling out the water-area Heart Renowns. I am now torn between whether Risen or Krait deserve top spot on my most hated enemy type list.

I’m just waiting to get Occam’s Razor as a unique weapon some time in the future :P

I could see dev favoritism towards Sylvari given all the interviews, blogs, articles, etc. about them pre-release. (I recall a lot more pre-release content about Sylvaris than humans or asuras, for example.)

However, I think it’s more likely that the reason Sylvaris are so prominent in the story is that Zaithan is “their” Elder Dragon. There are risen in their starting zone and they’ve been dealing with them since level 1. They also have the unique property of being immune to Zaithan’s corruption. The sylvari story is tightly linked to Zaithan and its risen army.

So yeah it kind of make sense that Sylvaris are always in the spotlight in the campaign against Zaithan. All races have an elder dragon though, so if, for example, the first expansion is a campaign to hunt Jormag, it’s likely going to be all about norns.

I guess if you really don’t like Sylvaris, you can rejoice since it would mean that they get their time when the game is least polished.

Bearhugger.4326:

I could see dev favoritism towards Sylvari given all the interviews, blogs, articles, etc. about them pre-release. (I recall a lot more pre-release content about Sylvaris than humans or asuras, for example.)

However, I think it’s more likely that the reason Sylvaris are so prominent in the story is that Zaithan is “their” Elder Dragon. There are risen in their starting zone and they’ve been dealing with them since level 1. They also have the unique property of being immune to Zaithan’s corruption. The sylvari story is tightly linked to Zaithan and its risen army.

So yeah it kind of make sense that Sylvaris are always in the spotlight in the campaign against Zaithan. All races have an elder dragon though, so if, for example, the first expansion is a campaign to hunt Jormag, it’s likely going to be all about norns.

I guess if you really don’t like Sylvaris, you can rejoice since it would mean that they get their time when the game is least polished.

That makes sense but this is the part of the story that deals with the foundationof the Pact shows that the Sylvari are founding leaders of the Pact. They feature way too heavily when this is supposed to be the beginning of the Pact.

Bearhugger.4326:

I could see dev favoritism towards Sylvari given all the interviews, blogs, articles, etc. about them pre-release. (I recall a lot more pre-release content about Sylvaris than humans or asuras, for example.)

However, I think it’s more likely that the reason Sylvaris are so prominent in the story is that Zaithan is “their” Elder Dragon. There are risen in their starting zone and they’ve been dealing with them since level 1. They also have the unique property of being immune to Zaithan’s corruption. The sylvari story is tightly linked to Zaithan and its risen army.

So yeah it kind of make sense that Sylvaris are always in the spotlight in the campaign against Zaithan. All races have an elder dragon though, so if, for example, the first expansion is a campaign to hunt Jormag, it’s likely going to be all about norns.

I guess if you really don’t like Sylvaris, you can rejoice since it would mean that they get their time when the game is least polished.

No race should be immune to Elder Dragon corruption, I already stated that such a thing would shoot the entire race (even if some individuals didn’t deserve it) into Mary Sue territory. Plus, even so, it may only be true to Sylvari of the Pale Tree in the starting area, there are other breeds of Sylvari out there from different Pale Trees, they could be corruptible…. hopefully.

It’s the Blood Angels/Ultrasmurfs/Grey Knights all over again, I swear.

Ahahaha! That’s the most apt comparison ever! The Sylvari are the Ultramarines of Guild Wars 2! Bloody brilliant!

Trahearne Guilliman, Patriarch of the Sylvarimarines.

I have to laugh. Complaining about the Sylvari being able to do things that took the other races centuries to master.
Look at it this way …
In real life … kids are doing things with computers that adults still can’t figure out.
Take that to heart.