Guild Wars 2

Playing through the different classes trying to build counter specs to glass stealth thiefs. generally the only way I am able to counter them is with either block or blind.

• This is because of their 1 hit bursts from stealth.

I am only able to attempt to counter them on a couple classes. (outside of being a bunker). The lack of a counter to their playstyle hits certain classes harder than others.

• Out of all the classes I play Ranger has the hardest time countering stealth thieves. Because of a lack of blind that can be used and no access to aegis. The invulnerabilities of ranger get waited out in stealth then you have just burned a 90 sec cd for nothing.
• I have the easiest time dealing with thiefs on a guardian bunker or engineer.

Solution: Why not give more classes access to a stealth removal?

• One thing that strikes me as a clear counter buff is fire combo fields.
• This is amazing in that it gives the anyone with a fire combo field a way to alleviate the pressure by removing stealth in a area.
• At the same time it increases the skill of the thief by avoiding the skill. bad thieves are caught without stealth and killed, good thieves are forced to escape the area and adjust their attack
• It makes no sense for a thief to be stealthed in a fire (no shadows or any places to hide)
• This would give eles with their fire fields, rangers with their torch and flame trap, eng flamethrower wall, and guardian flame field all access to stealth removal.
• Yes this would nerf stealth thiefs
• It is not however a direct nerf to thiefs, its only gives some classes a more reliable counter to a specific buff

give all classes specific skills that serve absolutely no purpose other than countering thieves?

yeah, because that sounds fair.

It wouldnt be all classes and its specific purpose is to counter stealth which more then just thieves have access to.

Um… stealth is what thieves live off of. You can’t rage at a mechanic you clearly havnt look into countering because if you played ranger, you would know there are traps, channeling still works on thieves when entering invisible, and oh yeah back away? Thief stealth is 3-4 seconds at most. Ppl need to stop asking for thief nerfs and learn to play their profession better.

This isnt a request for a nerf, its just a request for a counter built in the game. mesmers have stealth anyone with a smoke field and blast has stealth, rangers have a stealth. So before you knock on the idea and get super defensive its a COMBO field change. Would it be hard to avoid the stealth removal if you were a good thief?

You know what the counter to stealth is? Intuition. Use your head and predict movement. That is how I’ve fought every Thief so far. A few misses here and there, but if you keep thinking a few steps ahead, most of your seemingly fruitless swings at thin air will connect. I’ve nailed many Thieves who are still in stealth by watching the direction he’s running when he hits stealth and take in to account his movement previously in the fight, so I can determine if he will attempt a switcheroo or keep running. Then I make my move, and 70-80% of the time, I’ll hit him. Hell, you KNOW he will attempt to get behind you if he has D/D, so just being erratic and swinging at your blind spots will put you at an advantage.

You don’t need an in-built counter for this. Nobody does, for any class or any mechanic. Just use your head.

i play a thief. knowing how shadow refuge actually works, i killed another thief that tried to use it to hide from me.

offensive stealth is really easy to handle. there isn’t much you can do against the mini-unload, but it’s an easy dodge. backstab you just roll away from where you last saw the thief and keep looking in that general direction, worst case scenario you take very little damage.

you’re asking to give people a counter to what’s pretty much the only survivability mechanic of the thief (and IIRC, smoke combo fields are thief-only) and one of the things that make it be more than just a really squishy warrior with energy management. you can already counter it, i’ve done it, i’ve seen people do it to me. it’s not that hard.

If we’re going to ask for counters to stealth — which are completely unnecessary — we might as well, instead, ask for stealth to be removed from the game and have Thieves redesigned.

Stealth is fine as is, there’s no need for counters of any sort.

Don’t misunderstand, I play a thief as well as ranger, guardian, engineer, and necromancer. I’ve spent considerable time pvping on a thief as well as the rest. Maybe the problem with thief is the reliance of stealth. That would be a completely different topic. Here I’m trying to suggest that stealth as a mechanic needs a counter. This isn’t like stealth will be unusable or completely worthless. If you think that giving the ability to remove stealth to a few specific skills will completely destroy should stop being immiediately defensive and actually consider the idea.

How do you dodge against someone you can’t see? Intuition? thats not reliable and only adds “luck” to the mixture of what is supposed to be competitive pvp.

Every single competitive game I’ve ever played or seen has a counter to stealth. If Anet wants this game to be regarded (by me at least, but I expect many more) as an e-sport, they MUST add counters to stealth.

If they add counters to stealth itself, then they can make stealth last longer, and balance in other ways. It NEEDS a counter.

There are already many counters to stealth available in the game.

Besides, the big burst the OP fears has been toned down as of last patch.

I don’t get the OP though. He says he has an easy time when using his guardian or engi, so he’s asking to make it even easier?

It’s not like thieves are invulnerable while in stealth. They’re also rather squishy, especially if they’re playing the FotM cookie cutter BS build.

I never said I had an EASY time with thieves. I said I could beat them much “easier” on certain classes. You say there are counters to stealth, what actually counters stealth? being able to aoe an area isn’t a counter.

coun·ter/?kount?r/
Noun:
1. A long flat-topped fixture in a store or bank across which business is conducted with customers.
2. A thing that opposes or prevents something else.

so going with definition 2 here, what in the game is a counter to stealth?

I believe Kirby actually said he was okay for countering stealth on guardians and engineers, but that we need more counters, particularly on the other classes.

Perhaps making healing spells reveal an area around you, but making stealth last twice as long and granting protection or other damage mitigation while stealthed, would be reasonable.

Or even give a 50% evasion while stealthed, flat out, revealed or not, but give us a way to reveal.

Jumpers.5069:

Every single competitive game I’ve ever played or seen has a counter to stealth. If Anet wants this game to be regarded (by me at least, but I expect many more) as an e-sport, they MUST add counters to stealth.

If they add counters to stealth itself, then they can make stealth last longer, and balance in other ways. It NEEDS a counter.

And do you know why those other games have counters to stealth? Because those particular stealths are either long-duration or permanent. GW2’s stealths are neither. That is a massive difference that you are failing to factor into the argument. The classes/characters of other competitive games rely so heavily on those stealths as to require a clumsy, half-hearted counter that is completely unnecessary to GW2.

So, no, no counters to stealth, as stealth doesn’t need to last longer. Balance can be found in other ways, it does not require a counter. I’d rather not see an arms race start over stealth and its counters.

Good idea. Make the only survival mechanic for the thief no good…

I’d honestly just like stealth to break on use (especially stomp – it’s really dumb that stealth = immunity to projectiles). A stealth debuff (you have stealthed, cannot stealth for 3-5 seconds) would also help fix stealth but may be overkill (granted it is kitten to see people stealth for 12-15 seconds in WvW when retreating).

Once you’ve stealthed and come out there already is a stealth debuff for 3.3 seconds where you cannot stealth again.

“Once you’ve stealthed and come out there already is a stealth debuff for 3.3 seconds where you cannot stealth again.”

But what if you stealth while you are stealthed? And isn’t there a 2 second after stealth?

I’ve multi stealthed before and it left me in stealth, but I always popped my second stealth while in stealth so you may be right.

Kirby.4951:

This isnt a request for a nerf, its just a request for a counter built in the game. mesmers have stealth anyone with a smoke field and blast has stealth, rangers have a stealth. So before you knock on the idea and get super defensive its a COMBO field change. Would it be hard to avoid the stealth removal if you were a good thief?

no ,this is a nerf without you considering how harshly this idea would affect thieves. Yes other professions may stealth, but it isnt a core to those professions. Thief NEEDS stealth for numerous reasons. Survival, attempting a BackStab, depending on traits it gives them initiative or heals them or gives them 100% crit chance. You say ranger can’t counter them well and also that they are apparently “immune” to projectiles which is a flat out lie. Ranger has skill shots they can target in the general direction on SB, and LB has a cripple AoE they can place in front of them so the thief has to still go around or they won’t make it to the target in time. Rapid Fire channels for 3-4 seconds and we only get about 3-4 seconds of stealth so if they are stupid enough to stealth during this channel you got a full on tracking skill for them. Stop asking for nerfs to professions you troll on and learn to play your professions better. This message seems harsh only because ppl like you constantly ask for thief nerfs and it is gana make the class useless very soon if it continues. Your next post might as well be remove thief from profession list…

Kirby.4951:

How do you dodge against someone you can’t see? Intuition? thats not reliable and only adds “luck” to the mixture of what is supposed to be competitive pvp.

not as much intuition as common sense. to backstab, the thief still has to reach you. stay out of reach and voila.

So how do you stay out of reach from something you can’t see?

@ Kirby

You keep asking the same questions.

So how do you stay out of reach from something you can’t see?
Easy try to evade from the area, roll away, AoE the area.
You state that you think they should add a counter to stealth because you are ( lack of a better term ) Getting owned by Thieves. Then you state if they made a counter can a good Thieve not avoid the counter? So you want it easy for you and expect another player to show skill, This is confusing.
You said
2. A thing that opposes or prevents something else.
so going with definition 2 here, what in the game is a counter to stealth?
Rolling away running and everything that people have already mentioned is already in the exact definition of the word Counter, it is just not a result you like. You are only focusing on the later to the definition which is Prevention, and ignoring Opposing. If you learn how to stay from the Thieves reach you have Opposed the Stealth. Just cause there is a counter; by definition, doesn’t mean that it works 100% of the time. A counter to Warriors trying to rush a Ranger with a Long bow Point Blank shot, if the warrior dodges it does that mean we have to add a counter to the counter, pretty soon we will Have a “Trace buster buster buster buster 2000 yo” ( <—- 100 points to whom ever gets that reference )

Honestly you need to do some research the Developers of the game have stated that they purposely made stealth for thieves the duration of time it is so they would never have to nerf the damage out put of a thieve. A player must time his stealth moves properly to be effective.
By this exact notion what you are asking is that good thieve players be punished for knowing their class, so that inferior players can keep up. Your or that exact type of mentality is what I have deemed the WoW mentality. With more and more players like you starting to come up and build and play with this mentality, if Anet so much as humors any of you it will break down the structure of what they built and bring us into another WoW PvP full of people that just need to cry for a nerf till they can win like the good players.
Please do not take my word for it go to the WoW forums and look at the PvP side all you will hear is NErf this class nerf that class.

I, in closing, will say I have tried a Thieve I see nothing wrong with them, with that I can not get the flow of a Thieve down I just can’t do it no matter how I try it so I gave up on it. I think the class is nicely developed just doesn’t mess with me. With that said I play a Ranger Rank 23 in SPvP and TPvP, I do get kitten by Thieves but not always. For as many times as I got kitten I have done some kitten my self and that is a lot of the times 1v1 in TPvP. It is not the case of Needing a Counter/ Nerf it is the case you need to learn to counter them.

R @ P 3 = Kitten yeah edit that

Kirby.4951

So how do you stay out of reach from something you can’t see?

the same way as everyone else.

the thief doesn’t become a godly, invulnerable, omnipresent being when he stealths. he just can’t be seen, but he’s on the same place he was when he stealthed, and he’s likely walking toward you with the intention of backstabbing or dazing. he has 2-3 seconds to do that.

so what do you do? you look at where the thief was, and you walk away from there. lay some snares if you want to, roll away, there are plenty of options.

You know I just thought of this,
When I didn’t know how to play against the melee classes Warrior and Thieve mainly I used spike trap and Mass entanglement to protect my self. Look Kirby your going to have to come to the realization that Thieves and Warriors are the Bane’s of Rangers. Does this mean you can not beat them no, just means it will be harder to beat them.

And remember this just because your not good enough to beat them doesn’t mean it is broken, just means your need to get better. If your insistent on not getting better and just want an easy relaxed environment World of Warcraft is pretty mindless and has plenty of counters to stealthers there. Maybe perhaps that is more your speed.

I’m not really sure what you are talking about here kaimick, I have no problems at all with warriors. And I play at the paid tourny level, so probably a little above what you guys have experienced. Bruno what you are trying to say is that a thief will walk straight towards me while I’m shooting him in stealth. What kind of player walks towards projectiles? Non that I fight. They move to avoid damage while stealthed. And it is impossible for me to track their movements without any indicators or ways to counter stealth. Obviously indicators would defeat the purpose of stealth, but a way to counter stealth would be a reliable way for competitive players to compete.

Kirby you need to give up your QQign what your calling for is a Nerf to stealth plain and simple. Polish a kitten it is still a kitten sorry your not a good enough player to counter thieves.

With that said do not sit here and assume you are better than everyone here cause you play in TPvP , your assumption is only as pathetic as your constant weak argument that your not smart enough to beat a thieve in stealth so you want your QQ moment and for someone to Nerf them so you can win…

I say after your comment about how you play in TPvP and your better that it is just a lie to get people to say, " Whooa my bad I should shut up and let this kid have his way"

If you want a counter to stealth go play wow, they have plenty of counters for stealth, otherwise nut up or shut up. Cause you claiming by forced assumption your are this Elite Pro player that only plays “Paid PvP” then turning around and complaining that you need some how some way to negate the stealth cause your getting wrecked is some what amusing and a testament to your BS

FYI: I am a competitive player most of my time is spent doing TPvP not SPvP. and I have reliable ways to counter stealth. looks like someone just needs to learn his class better.

Or just make the debuff 5 seconds, 10 if the thief gets hit.

GG Scrub thieves.

Your a ranger, vs a thief, ever thought of placing your “TRAPS” on the ground under your feet so when he blinks to you hes immediately stunned/bled/poisoned/crippled over and over and over again… (because ranger traps work multiple times and are aoe, unlike thief ones that only work once and hit 1 target.)

Or, using your longbow and using crippling arrow barrage on top of your self…

I guess a simple strategy like that is way too hard, its a lot easier just to nerf a class you can’t beat with your face roll shortbow.

Hey Hey now Daecollo he is a Pro Tourny paid player I am sure he has tried all of those options he just likes to do it wow style and nerf everything till it sucks and it is all about him.

Or he could just use a ranged channeled ability. That’s how most rangers drop me when i enter stealth. Something ANet needs to fix ASAP though in my opinion.

you guys teaming up on the fact that you don’t like it as thieves and crashing on me because i main a ranger. Isn’t helping your case that it should be changed. Have you tried fighting thieves as other classes at all? The fact that there is no way to remove stealth in the game is the problem. Just because counters exist doesn’t mean everyone in the game will run one. The counter to the shortbow speed was confusion and retaliation but no one tried to counter it they just complained about it being op. Building in a counter is a much better way to balance a game then just nerfing or buffing classes.

Kirby.4951:

you guys teaming up on the fact that you don’t like it as thieves and crashing on me because i main a ranger. Isn’t helping your case that it should be changed. Have you tried fighting thieves as other classes at all? The fact that there is no way to remove stealth in the game is the problem. Just because counters exist doesn’t mean everyone in the game will run one. The counter to the shortbow speed was confusion and retaliation but no one tried to counter it they just complained about it being op. Building in a counter is a much better way to balance a game then just nerfing or buffing classes.

You can build a counter as ranger, its called traps, learn them.

Traps don’t care if the thief is stealth, traps don’t care about anything, and if a thief is trapped, you see the particle effects around the thief, even when hes stealthed, you see him getting hit with them.

Ok Kirby. this is my last post to your Stupidity and excessive whining.

My main PvP toon is a ranger just so you know, I have no problems with the stealth at all sorry your not a better player.

My secondary is a Engineer still nto problems with it.

Warrior and gaurdian and elementalist no problems what so ever.

I do nto play a Thieve I realize you probably didn’t read anything I posted before but I don’t play a Thieve it doesn’t flow right for me.

Your asking or crying for a change so that people can remove Thieves out of stealth ( I realize there are other classes that stealth but it is evident that this is about thieves for you) something they don’t get a lot of because you can’t seem to get around it.

Look no one here agrees with you on your silly complaint, we all can get past the stealth issue just fine, we are sorry you are a crappy player we are sorry your not smart enough to use the tools available to you as a Ranger. Your excessive plee to Nerf the one ability Thieves depend on to dish out damage to heavier armored and heavier hitters which you are trying to be cleaver about and call it a " Counter " is redundant, silly and preposterous.

Again I state for your case again as my last line (Which is the only thing you read as it would seem )

Learn to play your class everyone else has, if you can’t and you still want Moves to remove stealth GO PLAY WOW noob

I don’t really like the LTP posts, he has a concern and i’m trying to help him, not call him bad.

Kaimick.5109:

Ok Kirby. this is my last post to your Stupidity and excessive whining.

My main PvP toon is a ranger just so you know, I have no problems with the stealth at all sorry your not a better player.

My secondary is a Engineer still nto problems with it.

Warrior and gaurdian and elementalist no problems what so ever.

I do nto play a Thieve I realize you probably didn’t read anything I posted before but I don’t play a Thieve it doesn’t flow right for me.

Your asking or crying for a change so that people can remove Thieves out of stealth ( I realize there are other classes that stealth but it is evident that this is about thieves for you) something they don’t get a lot of because you can’t seem to get around it.

Look no one here agrees with you on your silly complaint, we all can get past the stealth issue just fine, we are sorry you are a crappy player we are sorry your not smart enough to use the tools available to you as a Ranger. Your excessive plee to Nerf the one ability Thieves depend on to dish out damage to heavier armored and heavier hitters which you are trying to be cleaver about and call it a " Counter " is redundant, silly and preposterous.

Again I state for your case again as my last line (Which is the only thing you read as it would seem )

Learn to play your class everyone else has, if you can’t and you still want Moves to remove stealth GO PLAY WOW noob

When a Mesmer goes invis, it doesn’t appear behind you .00005 seconds later and 1 hit you.

Thieves have been needing even more of a nerf. The most current one isn’t enough and doesn’t completely set them into that snug place they should be in. And a simple fix, is breaking them out of stealth when damage to a certain point. And increase the debuff.

This basically gives the Thieves a high risk/reward thing going. It also means Backstab can get buffed because of the increased risk.

Or, keep it simple and just lock that fail class.

How about we delete all classes and play hello kitty online adventures?

Your right Mesmer can stealth I usually mark mesmers so when they come out they are still marked

You need to do research of your own, Thieves will not have a damage nerf because they do not have perma invis. Not trying to be rude to you but I am not getting one shotted by thieves, I am getting stun locked by good players… but they are good players.

how about we go with Daecollo’s suggestion and play hello kitty online Island adventure then we wont have to worry about QQing abotu stealth

I’m not “QQing” about stealth, I am suggesting it should have a counter built into the game. Maybe stealth should be more a utility with which thieves have the most access to. I believe the class mechanic of the thief, correct me if I’m wrong, is steal not stealth. The ability to gain an extra ability and teleport to your enemy.

this kid still upset that he can’t see invisible people? Stop trolling, and stop feeding this troll post. Bottom line, you havn’t done your fair share of homework on stealth and found out the numerous counters to stealth (As listed above several times over and over)…

Kirby.4951:

I believe the class mechanic of the thief, correct me if I’m wrong, is steal not stealth. The ability to gain an extra ability and teleport to your enemy.

Steal, shadowstep, and stealth are the Thief’s class mechanics.

But NinjaEd he is a pro player ;-)

Agreed with Ninja bump this troll

I’m just trying to facilitate a DISCUSSION on why/if there should be a counter to stealth. All you guys have said is that stealth has a counter in player ability. And that only people who do not know how to play well have problems with stealth. Assuming equal skill between 2 players does the player with stealth have an advantage? probably, being able to go invisible is better then not being able to.

If a player wants to be able to counter stealth they should have access to skills that allow them to fight on equal footing. removing the advantage and then the player with more ability wins the fight.

Kaimick.5109:

Your right Mesmer can stealth I usually mark mesmers so when they come out they are still marked

You need to do research of your own, Thieves will not have a damage nerf because they do not have perma invis. Not trying to be rude to you but I am not getting one shotted by thieves, I am getting stun locked by good players… but they are good players.

how about we go with Daecollo’s suggestion and play hello kitty online Island adventure then we wont have to worry about QQing abotu stealth

They did nerf the damage a bit. Down to 15% over 5 hits rather then 50% on 1 hit.

Now listen to what I’m saying. Because, I know you. And how bad you read.

I said Thieves need more of a Risk Reward. Deal higher damage at the cost of losing stealth completely. But, it could deal 1 hit damage. Stealth would also have to break if the Thief uses the Finish Them thing.

I agree that Thieves need to be broken out of Stealth when doing finishers, no arguments there. Just not seeing why they need to have any adjustment beyond that. I personally have no problem with them. Also again coming from someone that does not play a Thieve at all, I just think that there are multiple ways one can avoid the effects of stealth impacting them negatively. Not saying that it will be 100% but if I see a Thieve coming I have never been bombarded by a stealth Thieve, it is usually when I haven’t noticed them.

Agreed that Stealth finishers should be removed. Really irritating and makes you wonder why you even have the “fight to survive” when the stealthed enemy(read: anyone affected by AoE stealth or can stealth themselves) finishes you without you or your allies being able to stop them(save for a very quick revive or Non-target AoE interupt, which is very rare).

As for general “counters” to stealth, I think that the usual AoE/CC plus awareness is enough in most 1vs1 situations.
I do think, however, that from a “logical” standpoint, stuff like setting the thief on fire(while they are stealthed) should semi reveal them. By that I mean, that you can see where they are and target them as long as they are burning, but the thief/stealthed enemy is still counted as “stealthed” for ability and combo purposes. But that is for 1vs1.

In a bigger fight with multiple opponents, a couple of thieves using their “clones” + stealth really gives them all the time in the world to make a backstab on someone engaging someone else. In these cases, a semi counter that can partially reveal the thieves(not breaking their stealth, but making them somewhat visible) will make it less frustating to fighting lots of thieves in teamfights.

OP avoiding Stealth is easy. Only time i get hit by it is when they shadow step to me. its easy ehough to roll away and turn and run due to the fact that thieves move slower in stealth. If you want a counter to stealth because its not fair in a 1v1 situation where only one person can stealth, how about specific abilities to counter necro or ranger pets? Because it seems you would argue that 2v1 is never fair. Better yet why not make a specific counter for Elementalists when they change attunments, or even Engineer turrets, or mesmer clones.

No, stealth is part of what makes a thief unique and is its main survival mechanism, other than spamming heartseeker to get away. Its easy enough to avoid if you think a bit about what the main goal of offensive stealth is, and that is to get on your side or back.

However I do agree that stealth stomps need to be changed. Yet if we are going to be getting rid of stealth stomps, what about the invincible stomps that can, on some classes, be easily paired with stability(warriors) or evades (elixer s)?