Guild Wars 2

For thoese of you who aren’t readers I have this argument in video form here:

MF, as I’m sure many are awear, is a bit of a contrivertial stat in the GW2 community.
The grip I have with it is that players can run it behind my back in dungeons. I know many are going to claim “It’s skill that determines a players worth, not their gear” but the simple fact is that players running MF are sacrificing efficeny to better their chances at loot.
Solo, this is fine. it makes perfect sense. You handicap yourself for a chance at better loot and must work to overcome that handicap.
In a group however you are part of a team and therefore not just handicaping yourself but the team as well. And the only person benifiting from this handicap is the player that brought it to the group in the first place.
GW2 is designed to have players in PvE to be working together, this is true in almost every aspect of the way the games designed except for this one instance where players are being encourged to handicap the team for their own personal gain.

There have been many proposed solutions to this problem but I believe the best one is this: Make MF group wide buff that is displayed while in a dungeon.
This solves every problem I have with MF. It’s now no longer a ‘greedy’ stat that just beifits the player bringing it but the whole team. Even better it may actually promote the use of MF in content that players find easy. Parties may seek out players with MF for the purpose of getting more out of a dungeon they feel comfortable running with a handicap. And for players that don’t want to run with MF can simple look to the buff and say they’d rather not run with MF.
Also there would be no need to change existing MF gear within the game so implimenting this change should be relativly easy as well.

I’m curious as to how other GW2 players would feel if this change was implimented. Or do you believe MF is fine as is? Or do you have a better idea on how MF could be improved? Please comment and let me know!

EDIT: “A Picture is worth 1,000 words.!” A big thanks to Tony.6028 for taking the time to make this. Please have A look at THIS before making a post: https://dviw3bl0enbyw.cloudfront.net/uploads/forum_attachment/file/69590/Magic_Find_Flow_Chart.png

*resisting pointing out spelling mistake above

Good video though..

Certainly a huge improvement would be have MF effect all members of party. I do wonder if it would lead to buffbots etc but possibly not. If we are looking at 100% personal MF on only 2 members of party translates to 200% party M.. Im not sure if that would be to OP.. would certainly make grouping quite profitable if it all added up etc. It would still mean players would run two sets of gear.. easier stuff they would go MF gear and harder stuff little MF.

There are probably equal arguments for just getting rid of MF all together. It is just a weird selfish thing to put in GW2.

interesting idea, you can look at it from two different angles…

1) MF is selfish and thus you should choose the players who you want to take with you carefully if you go to hard dungeon, BUT there is no way to inspect someone and going only with trustable people isnt the best way, especially to not very popular (read as harder to farm) dungeons…

2) they could make MF party wide, but not as a sum, but as a diameter to maintain the final value if all members would have the same amount of MF… anyway, i think it could be hard to implement

I’ve heard this argument a lot. It’s a stat. It may not be very useful to others. However, I don’t always agree with the stats that someone builds their character with. For example, the Glass Cannon Warrior. I am frequently frustrated with them in dungeons. They do a lot of damage — WHEN THEY ARE ALIVE. When we all approach a boss and three glass cannon warriors are dead on the ground almost immediately, who is the one with the bad stats? Maybe they should have had a bit more survivability. Do I get to analyze their build beforehand? No.

Let me tell you how I run my magic find. One of my characters has two sets of armor that he always carries. One has a substantial amount of magic find. The other has a lot more survivability. The damage output is the same.

Since the damage output is the same, I am “pulling my weight” against enemies with either set. If I am running a dungeon, and keep myself alive without problem, my MF stat is not hurting the party, but is substantially benefiting me. If the dungeon is causing me to be downed frequently, or be defeated, then my sacrifice of survivability for more magic find IS an issue, and IS hurting the party as a whole. In those dungeons, I swap to my other armor. Damage is the same, but now I can withstand a lot more incoming damage, stay in the fight, and therefore help the party as a whole. I am still benefiting, because I will not receive ANY loot if we just continue wiping.

So, I think that the glass cannon warrior that was dead for 90% of the fighting had stats that weren’t helpful because all their extra crit damage did NOTHING for the party since they couldn’t remain standing. Especially if their crit chance is very low. To me, THEY are the irrisponsible and selfish ones, not my magic find that is replacing stats that I do not require at the time.

I’d say remove it as a stat from armour, and make it a stat you gain through exploration.

Say a small percentage gets added on when you discover:

• Waypoints
• PoI
• Vistas
• Jumping Puzzles
• Mini-dungeons
• Dungeons

And then add other little content tasks such as:

• Treasure Hunts (Get a clue that leads to another clue until you find the location. Maybe add it as a daily reward / buyable with Karma)
• Scavenger Hunts (Nic the Traveller-esque)

I think Magic Find gear is fine as it is. You pay for less stats to get better items. You’re basically sacrificing stats for better drops. The only problem I have is that Magic Find does hardly anything. The chance of a better drop increases by a very few percent making it almost useless.

I run fractals with magic find gear and switch to the other gear before boss. Hence I do fine with magic find gear. I get more vitality when using my normal gear due to me using a hybrid combination of berserker and soldier.

I’m still going with the “It’s skill that determines a players worth, not their gear”…

I don’t care what stats others use, as long as they are not dead on the floor. Take this as an example… volcano fractal, final boss. What impact has magic find in the ability of a guardian to put a wall of reflection between the shaman and the players? None…

What if this same guardian was running berserker gear? Would that be better or worst?

I do agree with you that MF could be a team bonus… if you are playing alone, MF is only for you, and if you are playing in a party, MF is split for all the party members. That may be a good solution without breaking the game.

Isn’t this more of a community-issue, though?
A decent player won’t ruin his or her character in the vain quest for extra MF. They’ll run a utility infusion, maybe a stacking sigil, and some food. Maybe they even have celestial gear for a different reason, so they get some from there, too.

And that’s all nice and fair. That’s a minimal amount of power lost to a lot of extra MF.

The issue is when downright bad or hateful players stack MF on every single piece and slot, and then expect to be pulled through dungeons.

But, if you lessen the availability of MF, the players don’t become any better or nicer. You’re not actually fixing the issue. You’re hiding the symptom.

i just want to see my magic find %.

Makarei.4316:

i just want to see my magic find %.

its already added to hero panel, from last patch

and if you mean a chance to drop, its variable… if you dont know how it works, it increases base drop of item… 1% drop + 100% MF = 2% drop… you can ignore that if you know it

Really? I didn’t notice. Thanks.

There are multitude of ways to handicap yourself, there are multitude of ways to damage your team… Why address MF? That is quite fine as it is.

Besides, party wide MF isn’t even that good of a solution, you’d just turn the situation upside down. At the moment people want to run MF but others don’t want them to, with the proposed change, people wouldn’t want to run MF themselves but want others to. (Since if you deal more damage yourself, you kill more and get more drops. So you’d go for some damage gear, while wanting others to bring MF to affect your drop rates. Or you’d go for survival gear to minimize repair costs and be able to tag more kills due to less downtime.)

If you want to share one stat, share them all. Or at least don’t talk about selfishness if you only want to get the stats from others without sharing yours.

Carighan.6758:

Isn’t this more of a community-issue, though?
A decent player won’t ruin his or her character in the vain quest for extra MF. They’ll run a utility infusion, maybe a stacking sigil, and some food. Maybe they even have celestial gear for a different reason, so they get some from there, too.

And that’s all nice and fair. That’s a minimal amount of power lost to a lot of extra MF.

The issue is when downright bad or hateful players stack MF on every single piece and slot, and then expect to be pulled through dungeons.

But, if you lessen the availability of MF, the players don’t become any better or nicer. You’re not actually fixing the issue. You’re hiding the symptom.

A decent player won’t ruin his or her character in the vain quest for extra MF.

I am sorry this is a false statement, you can not determine a decent player by the gear he or sh wears. I have seen a player in a fractals 40 in 100% MF ( ascended items also ) be the sol survivng member and never drop once on Grawl finial boss. After the last bubble the party killed all but 5 Elemental grubs before all dying minus the ranger. The ranger killed of the 5 grubs and kited the boss for 20 minutes before downing him. Yes he took a long time to do it, but he did it. Now I am not saying that every player in MF is a good player, but that example right there proves that MF has no determining factor to the wealth of sucess or the limitation of skill or being a good or bad player. If he could do it then others can do it, and from my experince I have seen more decent and good players that run MF and are not dead all the time or next to never, than I have seen bad players using it.

People need to stop using MF as their fuel for theri witch hunt to be elitist. Using excuses like you hanicap yourself and hurt the group cause you can’t do as much damage. That is an elitist statement, I agree if your doing some sort of speed run where people are asking for nothing but zerker stats and you bring in MF set then yes you are hurting them. But that is a specific situation, in a group where the dungeon is run normally and the difference between a minute or two is all your going to get by removing it, I say suck it up. If that 1 to 5 minutes is the determinign factor of weather you could finish that dungeon then you shouldn’t be running it period. I always denote 45 min. to and hour to run any dungeon and a hour in a half to 2 hours for a fractal. Not that it takes that long to do them, but lets face it pugs are pugs, that 20 minute dungeon could be 40 or an hour do to stupidity or just bad players. If I can’t stay around for those time frames I don’t do the dungeon.

To the OP you have created this false illusion that MF is the devil and it must be killed, then realizing that it will not be removed you ask for it hard core here to be shared. Then you demonize it in it original form as selfish, yet you ask for it to be shared? Just like another poster said you do that then it is you that is being selfish, gaining a benifit for something your not contributing to. You go on this Witch hunt against MF, and yet you say nothing about Zerker geard anythigns. Which like I have pointed out and many others have pointed out in your other thread and some on this thread, they spend a lot of time dead not benifiting the group in do part to no survivability. Yet that is fine by your standards cause they have “The Right Stats” to help the party out. This makes no sense what so ever, to me you’re video’s and proposals sound more elitist and selfish than anything else. I use to run MF on my warrior 100% gear MF, ran roughly with all buffs over 230% and I can count on two hands how many deaths I had in dungeons over a 3 month span, that would be 8.

In closing people in this thread that keep saying MF is the devil ( paraphasing ) along with the OP need to realize this game is not about the stats, I have taken a lv. 80 Ele is all 45 yellows into fractals lv. 1 – 9 and only died 3 times and did better than most my parties did. Also being A D/D ele meants I wasn’t on the back lines casting in saftey. It is time people come to the realization that Skill does not equal Gear and gear is not determinate to skill. If you want that then go to the many games out there that offer that.

Kaimick.5109:

In closing people in this thread that keep saying MF is the devil ( paraphasing ) along with the OP need to realize this game is not about the stats, I have taken a lv. 80 Ele is all 45 yellows into fractals lv. 1 – 9 and only died 3 times and did better than most my parties did. Also being A D/D ele meants I wasn’t on the back lines casting in saftey. It is time people come to the realization that Skill does not equal Gear and gear is not determinate to skill. If you want that then go to the many games out there that offer that.

Then why are stats in the game when “this game is not about the stats”?, also the skill = gear thing is somewhat true.

The gear you’re wearing indicates the completion of content (Could be difficult content, could be easy content). The fact that you have the gear proves you are skilled enough to complete the challenge of that content to obtain that gear, therefore skill = gear.

Though gear does not make a player skilled, It helps in their performance but it’s not going to save them if they stay standing in the bloody fire! That’s like the first rule of raiding! lol

you can’t say someone is skilled because they obtained the gear unless your sure its specifically bind on pick up content locked stuff, else how hard is it to put in credit card details and buy a full set of exotics with gem gold?

As has been said many times, MF is not an issue, at worst it slows down a team that you’d prefer be running full bezerker, but then players dying ridiculously does that far more often.

And of course where do you draw the line at whats useful to the team or not? They are only getting better loot for themselves sure, but how much more useful is that warrior in healing power gear using just signet? specially if its either at the points where they are dying or not taking any damage due to avoiding all dangerous stuff.

And IF, IF MF is really being so much of an issue for those wanting to speed run dungeons and such, then maybe its time to set up dedicated groups with people you know?

I don’t know good question, why are stats in the game, you should ask Arena Net that. Although I am not saying people should run in 45 gear, I also do a lot better now that I am in full exotics, but the point wasn’t that stats are useless it was just that stats are not the center point of the game. Yes they play a factor, and yes they have a benifit to make runs faster and less of an issue with your average players. Although one single stat in the average to great players ( IE MF ) will not hinder a group or cause someone to be “Carried”. Bad players will do that.

Most people Transmog theri MF gear to some dungeon set FYI. Although to say that Skill=gear is false. It can be used as a basis, but I have seen people in all Arah gear join my group for all paths Arah. First pull in he drops dead from a bone head move. I said What are you doing? He said sorry haven’t really been in here much. I retorted with You have a full set of Arah gear WTF? He said my guild just carried me through for the gear they are cool like that. although I do agree that gear does not make a person skilled. What about the people on a new 80 that has 4 other 80’s in full dungeon gear and has an average Fractal ratting of 25 between the 4. That person isn’t in any dungeon gear but I am beting he knows the dungeon. Or the person that like the last example has dungeon master but is sporting Applied jumping title, bet he knows the dungeon also. Gear really is not an indicator of how skilled one person is in dungeons by any means, where you can use it as a fondation of basis, it is by far a rule of thumb.

I understand peoples dis-likes for MF and I am fine with that, no one should have to be forced to play with people with MF if they don’t want to. Although When I had a MF set and I used the GW2LFG.com site post like
GLF3M Doing All paths NO MF GEAR REQ GEAR PING pst
I avoided those as I respected those people choices.

When I joined groups that were just
GLF2M doing all paths invite self then they asked for gear ping I pinged a regular set, I felt if they didn’t have enough respect to say what they didn’t want from the get go I wont respect them either. In the end 10 out of 10 times people in the group would give either

• GG
• Great group went smmoth
• that was a fast run want to do another
  My retort would be nahh but here is the gear I pinged you [normal gear] and here is the gear I used all run [MF gear] enjoy. Then left. I found most good players will respect others your bad players wont. It is the bad players you’re complaining about ergo The stat isn’t the problem.

Also to the OP yet again, you first off cited me or rather my post in your video, thanks I am honored. Although to touch on your point that Zerkers bring more to the table than a MF is silly. Ok lets back up here and give examples

• Zerker gear warrior joins group goes in 1st pull, 4 seconds into it he is downed he is revived, 5 seconds later downed again. Again he is revived, this process repeats till he finnaly just dies. The fight last 45 seconds, the zerker warrior is only doing damage for 24 seconds of that 45 second fight that is roughly about 48% of the fight he was doing anything. Now this pattren contunies through ou the dungeon for every other trash mob. Boss fight he gets 2 shotted with in 10 seconds we will say by luck he gets revived then 20 seconds later he gets killed. Now One person must take 30 seconds to res him or they leave him. Once he is revived with in 20 seconds he is killed again 30 seconds more is used to res him ( taking only one person is resing him ) he is killed 6 times in one boss fight. The boss fight last 5 – 7 minutes ( average time roughly). Now your not only takign into account that he has been down for 3 of the 5 minutes but he has only done 1 minute and 20 seconds worth of damage. Also he has removed 1 other party member from the fight for 3 minutes.

That example there is a good reason to go on a all out witch out against Zerker gear players, and why it would be removed ( I am not saying we should. )

• Zerker goes in to dungeon and only goes down 10 times out of 22 pulls. He has brought a lot to the table and been extermly effective to the group dynamic.

• MF gear warrior joins group goes in 1st pull, 4 seconds into it he is downed he is revived, 5 seconds later downed again. Again he is revived, this process repeats till he finnaly just dies. The fight last 45 seconds, the zerker warrior is only doing damage for 24 seconds of that 45 second fight that is roughly about 48% of the fight he was doing anything. Now this pattren contunies through ou the dungeon for every other trash mob. Boss fight he gets 2 shotted with in 10 seconds we will say by luck he gets revived then 20 seconds later he gets killed. Now One person must take 30 seconds to res him or they leave him. Once he is revived with in 20 seconds he is killed again 30 seconds more is used to res him ( taking only one person is resing him ) he is killed 6 times in one boss fight. The boss fight last 5 – 7 minutes ( average time roughly). Now your not only takign into account that he has been down for 3 of the 5 minutes but he has only done 1 minute and 20 seconds worth of damage. Also he has removed 1 other party member from the fight for 3 minutes.

That example there is a good reason to go on a all out witch out against MF gear players, and why it would be removed ( I am not saying we should. )

• MF goes in to dungeon and only goes down 10 times out of 22 pulls. He has not brough as much as the Zerker warrior but he has brought in a steady amount ( maybe not as much ) of damage.

My point with this is if a good player can generate the same or less downs as a Zerker warrior or any profession in the game, then there should be no issue. I have given personal accounts of MF geared people that don’t die have saved a group from a wipe or redo on a boss in this thread and your other. You contunie to say I believe people should play the way they want, or you shouldn’t have to be pushed into X spec, X gear. You also say that MF destorys the basis of team play, yet your forgetting they are there contributing damage to the Mob/ Boss just like you are, maybe not as much, but in the end if that person in MF is dying just as much or less than the zerker profession and or it is a smooth run why is this so much of a deal? Is it because you didn’t finish 5 minutes sooner? Is it because they are bettering their chances at better drops? If they are contributing regardless of % or not and it is a smooth run, why hsould you care what loot they get or what chances they get? I think the real issue here is bad players not MF, you can take those scenarios I posted and put X stat into it and come out with the same result good player vs bad player. Becuase someone is in MF doesn’t pron them to a higher chance at death or being a bad player. The only thing MF does 100% do is make your dungeon run roughly about 5 minutes to 10 minutes longer. To say that they are 58% less effective may be true but is not a strong argumentive point as anyone that dies ( not downed ) 1 is 58% less effective as they are removign not only them self but at least 1 other person from the group. If your downed more than 3 times in a fight you are 58% less effective. So lets put aside all the BS and Numbers and lets just throw the facts out there, MF only affects the time in whch you can complete the dungeon. As I am sure we can all agree a good player to a great player can go through in MF and not die. If it is time you are worried about then I can respect that I may add this put in your Map chat spams or your LFG comment

• Do not have a lot of time need fast run no MF please

Your good players will respect that.

Skill > Stats is the only argument for MF gear.

But does not Skill + Stats make you more effective? Sure, having a skilled player in MF gear is better than a noob in Zerker gear that is constantly dying – but that’s not the point. This is not a discussion of player skills, but the fact you’re gimping the party to feed your greed. The whole party dies but you’re the last one standing, yay? But what if you actually had the stats that gave you the ability to kill everything before your party died? Taking a minute or two longer to kill something can make a major difference on a party success… and even if it all is already easy, you’re taking the entire parties time by making the dungeon longer because you are lowering your DPS majorly (not arguing lowering your defense, since the argument of MF is ok because you’re skilled and you don’t need that defense, it should be turned into DPS).

TL;DR –
Magic Find is a greedy stat that you are lowering your effectiveness to use and hurting the party to do so. If you argue that skill makes up for it, NO. The math should be taking Skill + Stats then. The argument that you’re better in MF gear than a noob in Berserker gear that constantly dies is just stupid and unrelated. I’m better than someone without arms or legs at basketball – does that mean I should tie an arm behind my back making the game harder for my team because sponsors might give me more money?

Drawing Guy.3701:

Skill > Stats is the only argument for MF gear.

But does not Skill + Stats make you more effective? Sure, having a skilled player in MF gear is better than a noob in Zerker gear that is constantly dying – but that’s not the point. This is not a discussion of player skills, but the fact you’re gimping the party to feed your greed. The whole party dies but you’re the last one standing, yay? But what if you actually had the stats that gave you the ability to kill everything before your party died? Taking a minute or two longer to kill something can make a major difference on a party success… and even if it all is already easy, you’re taking the entire parties time by making the dungeon longer because you are lowering your DPS majorly (not arguing lowering your defense, since the argument of MF is ok because you’re skilled and you don’t need that defense, it should be turned into DPS).

TL;DR –
Magic Find is a greedy stat that you are lowering your effectiveness to use and hurting the party to do so. If you argue that skill makes up for it, NO. The math should be taking Skill + Stats then. The argument that you’re better in MF gear than a noob in Berserker gear that constantly dies is just stupid and unrelated. I’m better than someone without arms or legs at basketball – does that mean I should tie an arm behind my back making the game harder for my team because sponsors might give me more money?

Then your at the situation where only the most optimal stats should even exist, using anything other is “lowering your effectiveness” even if its giving more effectiveness than MF its still less than the “perfect” build

Skill+Stats is best yes however this is a game and people are (read should be) free to play the way they want to, if that means someone who is good at playing decides they want to run slightly less effective for the chance of more personal loot then let them, if you don’t want them you don’t have to take them, just like I don’t have to take idiots in full zerker that will be whining non stop through the dungeon and dieing all the time.

Only when content starts being at the point where its absolutely necessary to have the perfect stat load outs will the argument “but it makes people less effective” really hold any weight as being less effective doesn’t actually stop anything at worst it slows things down slightly.

MF find may be a “greedy” stat but so is wishing the game to be changed because you don’t like how someone plays (as long as its within the rules of course)

Drawing Guy.3701:

snip

Didn’t read all of it, but first paragraph and wanted to add the following to this post.

Whenever you are wearing Magic Find gear or Berserker gear WHEN you waste a party’s time you are more than likely not going to be invited back to the group.

If you have 3 fights in a dungeon that normally take 2 minutes to kill. Someone has performs badly due to gear and makes it a 4 minute fight, they have essentially wasted 10 minutes of time. Two extra minutes multiplied by five people is ten total minutes wasted because of someones performance in a dungeon.

Now for the real question:

How much is your time worth?

Drawing Guy.3701:

Skill > Stats is the only argument for MF gear.

But does not Skill + Stats make you more effective? Sure, having a skilled player in MF gear is better than a noob in Zerker gear that is constantly dying – but that’s not the point. This is not a discussion of player skills, but the fact you’re gimping the party to feed your greed. The whole party dies but you’re the last one standing, yay? But what if you actually had the stats that gave you the ability to kill everything before your party died? Taking a minute or two longer to kill something can make a major difference on a party success… and even if it all is already easy, you’re taking the entire parties time by making the dungeon longer because you are lowering your DPS majorly (not arguing lowering your defense, since the argument of MF is ok because you’re skilled and you don’t need that defense, it should be turned into DPS).

TL;DR –
Magic Find is a greedy stat that you are lowering your effectiveness to use and hurting the party to do so. If you argue that skill makes up for it, NO. The math should be taking Skill + Stats then. The argument that you’re better in MF gear than a noob in Berserker gear that constantly dies is just stupid and unrelated. I’m better than someone without arms or legs at basketball – does that mean I should tie an arm behind my back making the game harder for my team because sponsors might give me more money?

So what gives players like youthe right to say what gear I can wear and can’t?

What gives players like you the right to deem how I play my character, regardless of how you’re ethics see’s it?

If you con’t want MF in your party state that in your LFG. Will it stop people from doing it? No cause trolls and bad players will still do it but at that point it isn’t MF that is hurting you it is the player.

Also no offesnse but being a player that has Dungeon master, there is no dungeon that is a DPS race. If you know the fight and your a decent player regardless of the fight takign 5 minutes or 10 minutes you will survive. To blame a stat ( MF ) becuase you messed u kitten illy. I can go through CoE alpha fights and never once get hit, doesn’t matter if I do it for 2 mintes of 10 minutes, I know the fight I know the machanic. If your complaint is I have to do the fight longer and therefore I die the longer it goes so I want the fight to go faster so I don’t die. Then all your saying is, " Because I am a sub par player that messes up a lot I want the best possible gear to only be used so I bring down the chances of me dying."

That is like saying, I am part of a community league basketball team and because I am nto as good as some of the players I want NBA players to carry my lack of effort to get better.

My guild ( which some run MF and some don’t ) runs fractals level 36 on a daily basis, from all the 30’s 20’s 10’s we have run in the past 2 months, without MF gear and sometimes with MF gear. The machanics of the fight never change be it grawl, dredge, cliffside, maw, swamp, water, Ice ect. We have died a total of I would say 10 times all together in th past 2 months. Those deaths weren’t cause the fights lasted longer it was because we usally messed up or got hit by an AoE or feel off somewhere. So to say longer fights = more deaths is also incorrect. If a good player knows the machanics and dungeon then time will never = more deaths. User error = more deaths, so again we go back to this really isn’t about MF or not MF it is about good players to bad players.

TL;DR

You want runs with out MF ask for those in your LFG respectful players will not join you. MF stat will not make someone join your non MF group the bad player will.

GamerToukotsu.4219:

Now for the real question:

How much is your time worth?

$10, which could get me a chicken parmigiana at the pub, if only the group killed things quicker =’(

@Kaimick.5109
“So what gives players like you the right to say what gear I can wear and can’t? What gives players like you the right to deem how I play my character”

you would be epic on games like wow lol, I have that view all the time, but when I’m in a group that is focusing on themselves to give it their all, and depending on me to also do the same, you need to give it your all if you want to progress. (Its all for the team play)

If we were both in a car, It stalls, you get out and start pushing but I refuse because I’m lazy or don’t want to, I just killed the team play and you would be annoyed. <— lawl was turned to “kitten”

Gustoril.4195:

GamerToukotsu.4219:

Now for the real question:

How much is your time worth?

$10, which could get me a chicken parmigiana at the pub, if only the group killed things quicker =’(

LOL best response hahahah

Gustoril.4195:

GamerToukotsu.4219:

Now for the real question:

How much is your time worth?

$10, which could get me a chicken parmigiana at the pub, if only the group killed things quicker =’(

soo… if we all ran zerker warriors we could end world hunger!

If you think, lvl 35 players can run AC with lvl 35 gear and finish it without problem (ok, a little trouble)

A MF gear is not that bad considering the defense it has. On the other hand, it’s not as effective as a real gear and pretty much selfish imo. So I agree with that MF sharing as people suggested

Dasorine – it’s not a thing of “perfect” stats – it’s about going for what is most effective for your playstyle and teamwork. Full Zerkers on someone that knows the game and doesn’t die would be most effective on them while someone that constantly dies should be using more defensive to be effective. People can go for condition damage, tanking, healing, DPS, whatever… THOSE are playstyles. Greed should not be a playstyle.

As for how much it slows it down, it’s not “slightly” – it’s pretty major. Same party, same classes, you drop the entire party’s effectiveness by 10% just by swapping to MF gear. This is assuming a perfect run with no variance. If that slowdown then causes time for someone to die, that number can only climb. If you’re the more skilled better player on the party, that means you control a bigger chunk of team effectiveness, and thus that slowdown climbs once again. Only if you’re basically a tag-along not really contributing anyways could you calculate that percentage smaller. But by the mere fact you’re almost halving yourself for your greedy “how you want to play”, you’re pretty much guaranteed to be the least contributing player anyways.

Magic Find needs to change. Until it is a state where it does not harm a team in any way or at least provides a shared benefit for that shared harm, it is a bad thing in this game.

but you don’t really get to say whether someone should have to run at their most effective outside of setting up your own teams.

Ok so I am finished with the discussion of is it bad or is it not, so I am going to adress the fact of the OP’s Original suggestion.

• Make magic find party wide buff.

Honestly people have called MF leechers, bans on parties ect and weather or not one believes this to be true or not is not the case, as it is a personal opinion. Although if we were to entertain the idea of one person in MF gear giving everyone MF then we have an issue. Now we have the tables turned now it isn’t the MF gear person that is the Leecher or ban it is everyone else in the party. That person spent time for, Money, Tokens, crafting what ever to make that or gain that gear, and now you want to leech his benifits cause you as a player ( no one in particular ) do not want to? This isn’t a viable solution either as your just turning the tables. I will go into a better solution later that the OP mentioned in his video.

Now people seem to dislike the stat becuase they aren’t benifitting from it and claim it only hurts the group cause of time causing longer fights = more deaths. yet as soon as they get the benifit from it ( leeching ) it is ok to cause more deaths and take longer.

Yet what people are ignoring here and commonly mis use as an argument is Play the way I want.

They sem to think this means:

• I don’t like MF get rid of it that is the way I want to play.

and ignore the fact they just removed the way someone else wants to play. Regardless of weather you think it is a viable way to play or not.

What this actually means is they give you options on how to play so you can choose one of those options ergo giving you the right to play the way you want. There are options given to players to avoid playing with MF people.

• join a guild
  - what happens if my guild is to small I have to pug
• join a larger guild
  - But I hate larger guilds and I only want to be part of my small guild

You can’t have everything that is one option, this is why one is able to be part of multiple guilds, so if theri guild is to small for X they can have a guild that can. These are options

• Use your friends list
  - how do I know some of them aren’t sporting MF gear
• Use the block feature for MF players or bad players

By blocking them it makes your life a lot simpler when it comes to avoiding MF people. When making your group specify Whisper first for invite, if that person is on your block list you don’t invite them.

These are two options that allow a player be it you like or dis-like MF to avoid those people. Now my next statement I don’t neccessarly agree with but it is a fact of statement, and with the first two options regardless of weather I agree or not make it a viable statement.

When you Pug or use a map spam or lfg site you as a player lose the right to really complain about what people have on their gear or what traits they used. It is a pug plain and simple, if this was the only avenue to gain groups for dungeons, fractals, events ect I would be the first to be complaining about MF with you guys as it is not right to force people into playign with something they don’t want to. Although that is not the case as I have listed 2 other options to avoid option 3. If you don’t want either of those options the solution isn’t remove it.

Now my solution that would make everyone happy but I really don’t see happening is.

Apply MF as an additional stat on armor, to the problem the OP stated in the video what would they do with the exsiting gear that is simple. All MF gear is modled after a particular set of standard gear be it Zerker, Cleric’s, Knight’s ect. When you do this just put that particular state back on to the gear. Although you wuld have to deminish the state a little bit IE

• MF 3%
• Precision 50
• Crit Damage 3%

to

• Power 30
• Precision 50
• Crit Damage 3%
• MF 3%

from a

• Power 50
• Precision 50
• Crit Damage 3%

( yes the numbers are not exacte they are examples ) I have a feeling that if they added it to be MF 3%, 50, 50, 3% then it would over flood the market.

Although my lasting thought is ( I am not speakign for Arena Net ) MF is not an issue, they keep putting more and more into the game, either through gear, buffs, food ect. I am also sure they test it to see if it will be destructive. Seeing as they keep applying more and more I am doubting anything at this time or the near future will change and MF will be here to stay, I have given you the options that Arena Net has put forth to avoid it, if you want to ignore it well tough luck, you really have no right to complain IMO.

I don’t like comparing other games really, but I have to say Diablo 3 did mf really well. There is a cap on it, and it becomes part of your character not the gear he/she wears(gear is optional but the passive mf at max level hits the cap I believe so no need for mf gear). Maybe they can scratch mf gear (food isn’t a crutch, as it doesn’t hurt nor help the team really) and put in a new item from miyini(the sp merchant in LA) that sells a book that grants you mf. Idk what a reasonable sp cost would be but it would be soulbound internal mf. That way people arn’t wasting the money on mf gear or hurting their team with their selfishness plus they get rewarded for logging tons of hours into their toon. It would also help with those who farm dungeons.

EX.

Solid 100% mf cap.

Each book costs 10 sp, granting 1% soulbound mf. OFc, caps at 100.

NinjaEd.3946:

I don’t like comparing other games really, but I have to say Diablo 3 did mf really well. There is a cap on it, and it becomes part of your character not the gear he/she wears(gear is optional but the passive mf at max level hits the cap I believe so no need for mf gear). Maybe they can scratch mf gear (food isn’t a crutch, as it doesn’t hurt nor help the team really) and put in a new item from miyini(the sp merchant in LA) that sells a book that grants you mf. Idk what a reasonable sp cost would be but it would be soulbound internal mf. That way people arn’t wasting the money on mf gear or hurting their team with their selfishness plus they get rewarded for logging tons of hours into their toon. It would also help with those who farm dungeons.

EX.

Solid 100% mf cap.

Each book costs 10 sp, granting 1% soulbound mf. OFc, caps at 100.

I like it but here is the issue if by SP you mean SKill points then that would be 1000 skill points. FYI that is an achievment in the game, and it is only 200 SP for a piece of the legendary weapon which is permanate.

I could so 10 SP for 20% and if it was a permantae buff for 50 SP.

or

10 SP for 50% for 5 hours max of 100% stacks with food and other buffs.

MF is fine how it is, if it were a party wide buff I can see it already. “LF Warrior MF builds only”

So Kaimick, You tread the same ground over and over in your posts hightling in every single one the same arguement: Skill > Gear, which, for the record I wholeheartdly agree with.
But as Drawing Guys said “But does not Skill + Stats make you more effective?”
So we come again to this: “I should be able to play exactly the way I want.” This is also a valid statement. Who’s to say you can’t play the way you wish to? But if you follow that arguement the same goes for people on the other side of the spectrum who want to play the game as efficently as possible. Weather for the simple challenge to do so, or simply because their time is precuis to them. However they cannot always play as such, because as you so demonstrated, nothings stoping another player from going behind their backs:
“My retort would be nahh but here is the gear I pinged you [normal gear] and here is the gear I used all run [MF gear] enjoy. Then left. I found most good players will respect others your bad players wont. It is the bad players you’re complaining about ergo The stat isn’t the problem.”
You can lie about your gear to play the way you want. There is however nothing people wanting to run without MF can do to stop you from jumping in and ruining their playstyle, simply because if you feel self rightous enough about yours, you can decive them.
In the above exaple all you had to say was you had MF gear or leave, but no, you thought you’d “teach them a lesson.” Nice community spirit there.
I also cannot fathom why you are so against MF being a group wide stat when it fits right in with your playstyle and would allow you to continue playing your current playstyle with no re-precussions.
“That person spent time for, Money, Tokens, crafting what ever to make that or gain that gear, and now you want to leech his benifits cause you as a player ( no one in particular ) do not want to?”
What about the other players in your party that spend money, tokens, time and effort with their builds and gear so they could work as a team to tackle content? They’re offering what they can to the group in the same way you would be if MF was a group wide stat.
In conclusion Kaimick, all of your posts here just make me believe my inital suspiciousions about you were correct:
That you’re a MF leach who see’s no problem in deceiving his fellow group members to maximise his own gain. Furthermore I believe the reason you’re so against MF becoming a groupwide stat is simply because this will prevent you from getting the edge on the competition in terms of making gold.

This is why I belive the proposed change to MF is the best all round soltuion to both parties. As soldier said : “… if it were a party wide buff I can see it already. “LF Warrior MF builds only””
Isn’t that a step in the right direction? And who’s to say BOTH wouldn’t exist in a party wide MF enviorment?
“LF Warrior Full zarker only.” Why is that? One reason might be time, that the group wants to experiance the content as fast as possible.
The other reason (most likeley) is because these players want to run what they believe is the fastest most effective way to gain loot TOGETHER.
“LF Warrior MF builds only” is exactly the same thing, just the FOTM has been changed from zerkers → MF.
What’s the differnce you ask? Why bother implimenting a change that changes nothing? Well it does change one very important thing.
These groups know what they want, and they’re doing it together. Which is what an MMO should be all about. Players with similar goals working together to achive these goals.
What it should NOT be about is a group of players working towards a goal, but being hindered by another with a hidden agenda, which is what a MF leach in a group is doing.
Sorry for the long post guys but I wanted to make clear the reason I dislike MF in groups and why I think my proposed solution is best.
I hope it was worth your time to read.
Thanks.

I think it is your very own choice whether or not to use Magic Find or not.
It’s your own choice whether or not you want to be a burden for your group or not.

Just like it’s your own choice whether or not you want to back stab someone in your group or one of your friends. Yeah, It’s selfish but that’s what magic find or luck always is.
Luck is nothing you can give someone else. It’s something you just have.
Plus magic find is not the greatest thing ever.

“Wow I increased the chance to drop this item. Instead of a chance of 0.01% I now have a chance of 0.02% thanks to 100% magic find!”

GreenNekoHaunt.8527:

I think it is your very own choice whether or not to use Magic Find or not.
It’s your own choice whether or not you want to be a burden for your group or not.

Just like it’s your own choice whether or not you want to back stab someone in your group or one of your friends. Yeah, It’s selfish but that’s what magic find or luck always is.
Luck is nothing you can give someone else. It’s something you just have.
Plus magic find is not the greatest thing ever.

“Wow I increased the chance to drop this item. Instead of a chance of 0.01% I now have a chance of 0.02% thanks to 100% magic find!”

This is exactly why a change like this should be implimented. If you want to try your luck that’s just fine, but being able to do so against others goes against GW2’s design goals.

First of all the main problem is not even the stat Magic Find. Magic Find is AWESOME. visible increase at heavy bag volume. but unless you can MF the MF (magic find the mystic forge), personally don’t see why people even bother with it.

The ONLY problem is, most non magic find players do not want to waste/risk their time with magic find geared players.
cause – no real way to know what others are using.
real root cause – ninja MF leechers.

Make everyone’s total MF appear next to their HP bar. – problem solve.
only real difference. MF geared leechers can’t hide. Those already upfront about their MF gear – what difference would it be to them?

@Kaimick.5109 , @Elusive.9481 – you are just MF leechers trying your best to justify leeching.

1. Skill > stats? you think you’re the only one with skills? oh please this game is considered old already, everyone pretty much knows what to do. Dungeon PVE in this game, it comes down to stats. more damage stats = faster runs. So why should players that want fast runs have to use/risk more of their time.

admittedly there are still new players picking up GW2 everyday, but that’s a whole separate thing.

2. You think most players would even care to stop and tell you what you can and cannot do in game. You think you’re that important, some ego? If everyone’s MF is exposed its just becomes a simple choice – team with or not to team with. Probably most would rather not go with a player in full MF gear. So what? IS that’s elitism already, really? Not wanting to risk one’s own time for nothing in return = elitism? To me that’s just basic human nature. The most that would happen is Full MF gear does dungeons with other Full MF gear. World event chests etc MF doesn’t affect those. and its usually a huge zerg already nobody really cares who wears what there. Skill > gear stats right. What’s wrong with that. I’m pretty sure with 45AR 5 skilled players can go 300% MF and make it in fotm 50. MF damage stats = knight anyways.

3. MF DPS on stats. more or less = knight = soldier
a. Has anyone actually considered actual output? MF glass survivability= more dodging, more canceling mid cast or DIE. that affects time spent more than the actual damage you do.
b. the less damage you can take = the more your team has to take for you. Just because the MF player is constantly attacking doing Knight gear level DPS, not dying. and his team is performing like crap, so what? the way most RPGs mechanics work. low dps, tank better, high dps, kill faster. In a team that translate into. Low dps take more agro so high dps can have more freedom to destroy – TEAMWORK.

c. lastly so what if those non MF were actually just bad players. newbies/bad players will always exist, its the human factor. So that justifies leeching? “I’m teamed with bad players, so I deserve to leech.” that’s a real nice mindset you have there.

4. So what if all players in MF gear get kicked from parties/ being force to team with other MF gear players? What’s so bad about that?
some people don’t care team with them! Worst case MF gear with other MF gear, elitist jerks with other elitist jerks, casuals with casuals, basically like minded players sticking together. Would this just not mean everyone ends up with a more enjoyable GW2 experience.

<<THE FACT IS MOST MAGIC FIND GEARED PLAYERS THEMSELVES WOULD RATHER NOT PARTY WITH OTHER MAGIC FIND GEARED PLAYERS.>>
Why would they? can’t blame them, after experiencing first hand what its like in MF gear. I personally have full knight gear and full berserk gear. Doing knight level DMG while at Berserk level survivability, just imagining it > No TY…

5. Some might say full MF teams probably will fail dungeons more, bad experience, leave the game. Overall bad for community.
a. So just for the sake of having a bit more gw2 players, we should all spend up to 20% more time per MF geared in the team?
b. MF geared choose to be able to do less for a better chance at loot. It’s a conscious choice, it’s their choice, we should respect that. Non MF geared should not have to unconsciously cover that gap in parties with their time and effort. Developers should respect this.

As for making it party shared? how would it scale/stack. 300% = everyone 300%? 300%/x number of players in the party. sounds like a lot of work/balancing but who knows maybe devs are up to it.

GreenNekoHaunt.8527:

I think it is your very own choice whether or not to use Magic Find or not.
It’s your own choice whether or not you want to be a burden for your group or not.

Just like it’s your own choice whether or not you want to back stab someone in your group or one of your friends. Yeah, It’s selfish but that’s what magic find or luck always is.
Luck is nothing you can give someone else. It’s something you just have.
Plus magic find is not the greatest thing ever.

“Wow I increased the chance to drop this item. Instead of a chance of 0.01% I now have a chance of 0.02% thanks to 100% magic find!”

agreed! most of the stuff people want to loot have ridiculously small % .01 .001 or even worst. just to double or triple that, spend their own and their teams time. I personally don’t get it. but its their choice, their game, good for them.

Sexelot.2108:

First of all the main problem is not even the stat Magic Find. Magic Find is AWESOME. visible increase at heavy bag volume. but unless you can MF the MF (magic find the mystic forge), personally don’t see why people even bother with it.

The ONLY problem is, most non magic find players do not want to waste/risk their time with magic find geared players.
cause – no real way to know what others are using.
real root cause – ninja MF leechers.

Make everyone’s total MF appear next to their HP bar. – problem solve.
only real difference. MF geared leechers can’t hide. Those already upfront about their MF gear – what difference would it be to them?

@Kaimick.5109 , @Elusive.9481 – you are just MF leechers trying your best to justify leeching.

1. Skill > stats? you think you’re the only one with skills? oh please this game is considered old already, everyone pretty much knows what to do. Dungeon PVE in this game, it comes down to stats. more damage stats = faster runs. So why should players that want fast runs have to use/risk more of their time.

admittedly there are still new players picking up GW2 everyday, but that’s a whole separate thing.

2. You think most players would even care to stop and tell you what you can and cannot do in game. You think you’re that important, some ego? If everyone’s MF is exposed its just becomes a simple choice – team with or not to team with. Probably most would rather not go with a player in full MF gear. So what? IS that’s elitism already, really? Not wanting to risk one’s own time for nothing in return = elitism? To me that’s just basic human nature. The most that would happen is Full MF gear does dungeons with other Full MF gear. World event chests etc MF doesn’t affect those. and its usually a huge zerg already nobody really cares who wears what there. Skill > gear stats right. What’s wrong with that. I’m pretty sure with 45AR 5 skilled players can go 300% MF and make it in fotm 50. MF damage stats = knight anyways.

3. MF DPS on stats. more or less = knight = soldier
a. Has anyone actually considered actual output? MF glass survivability= more dodging, more canceling mid cast or DIE. that affects time spent more than the actual damage you do.
b. the less damage you can take = the more your team has to take for you. Just because the MF player is constantly attacking doing Knight gear level DPS, not dying. and his team is performing like crap, so what? the way most RPGs mechanics work. low dps, tank better, high dps, kill faster. In a team that translate into. Low dps take more agro so high dps can have more freedom to destroy – TEAMWORK.

c. lastly so what if those non MF were actually just bad players. newbies/bad players will always exist, its the human factor. So that justifies leeching? “I’m teamed with bad players, so I deserve to leech.” that’s a real nice mindset you have there.

4. So what if all players in MF gear get kicked from parties/ being force to team with other MF gear players? What’s so bad about that?
some people don’t care team with them! Worst case MF gear with other MF gear, elitist jerks with other elitist jerks, casuals with casuals, basically like minded players sticking together. Would this just not mean everyone ends up with a more enjoyable GW2 experience.

<<THE FACT IS MOST MAGIC FIND GEARED PLAYERS THEMSELVES WOULD RATHER NOT PARTY WITH OTHER MAGIC FIND GEARED PLAYERS.>>
Why would they? can’t blame them, after experiencing first hand what its like in MF gear. I personally have full knight gear and full berserk gear. Doing knight level DMG while at Berserk level survivability, just imagining it > No TY…

5. Some might say full MF teams probably will fail dungeons more, bad experience, leave the game. Overall bad for community.
a. So just for the sake of having a bit more gw2 players, we should all spend up to 20% more time per MF geared in the team?
b. MF geared choose to be able to do less for a better chance at loot. It’s a conscious choice, it’s their choice, we should respect that. Non MF geared should not have to unconsciously cover that gap in parties with their time and effort. Developers should respect this.

As for making it party shared? how would it scale/stack. 300% = everyone 300%? 300%/x number of players in the party. sounds like a lot of work/balancing but who knows maybe devs are up to it.

Cheers for the post Sexelot, You obviously took a fair bit of time to write all that out.
While agree simply showing MF as a stat in the party interface (like the MF sigil do) would help I believe making it party wide stat would also have the benifit of making it a more social stat.
As for how it would stack, I’d suggest cumulativly, but give it a cap. I’d leave it up to the devs as to what that cap might be but it would allow for a group to choose between each member runing a few bits of MF gear or one/two players running the lot.

Kaaboose.3897:

But as Drawing Guys said “But does not Skill + Stats make you more effective?”

YEs but if your still finishing the dunegeon with no issues why does it matter? You have yet to ever answer that.

So we come again to this: “I should be able to play exactly the way I want.” This is also a valid statement. Who’s to say you can’t play the way you wish to?

Actually people like you that assume that MF should be removed to benefit players that think it should be removed.

However they cannot always play as such, because as you so demonstrated, nothings stoping another player from going behind their backs:

I gave you two options on how to avoid that arena net has offered you, so because you choose to ignore it you want to change it? You see I can snip pieces of your argument also. Next time you quote anything I say put the full part in, not teh part that would demonize me.

“My retort would be nahh but here is the gear I pinged you [normal gear] and here is the gear I used all run [MF gear] enjoy. Then left. I found most good players will respect others your bad players wont. It is the bad players you’re complaining about ergo The stat isn’t the problem.”

GLF2M doing all paths invite self then they asked for gear ping I pinged a regular set, I felt if they didn’t have enough respect to say what they didn’t want from the get go I wont respect them either. In the end 10 out of 10 times people in the group would give either
GG
Great group went smmoth
that was a fast run want to do another

That is the part you missed ^^

Kaaboose.3897:

I also cannot fathom why you are so against MF being a group wide stat when it fits right in with your playstyle and would allow you to continue playing your current playstyle with no re-precussions.

So what your saying is it is bad to leech and be a hinderance to the party, but if they share it so you can leech now it is fine? Do you listen to your self when you type this crap.

What about the other players in your party that spend money, tokens, time and effort with their builds and gear so they could work as a team to tackle content? They’re offering what they can to the group in the same way you would be if MF was a group wide stat.

Again you ignore the fact that any group with good players can still finish the content regardless, but because it isn’t up to your standards it is get rid of it or let me leech. Nice community spirit there Ol’ Chap.

Kaaboose.3897:

In conclusion Kaimick, all of your posts here just make me believe my inital suspiciousions about you were correct:
That you’re a MF leach who see’s no problem in deceiving his fellow group members to maximise his own gain.

Maybe it is becuase I am American and your European, Maybe it is becuase we americans speak broken english, who knows, so here it is again for you. pay attention::
I no longer use the Magic Find Gear, I have in the past, but do not anymore, not cause of any absurd reason you would think. My MF toon was a DPS spec, I changed to Mitigation, I was to lazy to re outfit her with all MF so I just put all Toughness Vit and Power on her. Sorry to disapoint.

I do however have no issues with people that use it, as I don’t care if it takes me 5 extra minutes to get through a dungeon. SHOCKER I also run with guild mates and firends that I know can play regardless of what gear they have. You see unlike you I don’t care if people aren’t bringing their A game to the table so long as we get through it with out any major issues.

Kaaboose.3897:

Which is what an MMO should be all about. Players with similar goals working together to achive these goals.

You have played MMO’s lately right? you realize this is a pipe dream at best on most days, unless you have your own…Oh yeah guild and friends to run with.

Sexelot makes a lot of assumptions for someone that has obviously never sported MF gear.

I have made plenty of groups where it has been all 100% MF and it has gone just great, Granted I do not run MF anymore haven’t for a month or so now. If Arena Net wants to add a Buff on someones Character panel with a 4 leave clover so be it I could care less. Even if I was still running MF gear I wouldn’t care. That way the people that didn’t want it in groups didn’t have to be bothered with it and the people that wants to run with it or have no issues with it can still do as they please that is a solution Ol’ Chap not becoming a leech your self.

Although I have noticed that unless someone agrees with you 100% you speak out against them and throw them into your witch hunt, as do most people that think the way you do.

Kaimick.5109:

So what your saying is it is bad to leech and be a hinderance to the party, but if they share it so you can leech now it is fine? Do you listen to your self when you type this crap.

How is that crap that someone is less concerned about their time being wasted when they’re being paid for the trouble?

your right that 5 minutes is well worth the monitary vuale of in game expensnses cause you can’t use the tools to avoid this.

Then in that case I want Compensation for all the Bad players that join my group and die every mob pull, and cause my runs to take 30 minutes longer that are not in MF or may be in MF.

I say suck it up, you want to put a buff on a player that signifies he is using MF gear, so be it if MF gear players cry about that they need to suck it up. Again becoming a leech no matter how you spin it, and sayign it is ok since your now leeching from them is essentially doing the same thing they are now.

Put a buff on let players decided at that point if they want to run with them, if they decide to run then they can’t complain. At least that way the QQ players can stop crying about MF screwing over their parties.

The solution seems simple, why is this not an acceptable solution it solves your betrayal problem in all shapes and forms.

I always run dungeons with 109% MF and that’s from gear alone, before nourishment or banners.

GW2 is made in a way that the players can take care of themselves, I’ll give you an example, this week I was running AC and I was the last player standing on the final boss, after some maybe 10 minutes that felt 30 I finally got him down and avoided starting over, that with 0 defence what I have is power cd mf.

I’m not sure how you find MF is handicapping the team, if a player dies a lot that doesn’t mean he’s running with MF, maybe he’s just bad or it’s not his day.
Personally I think someone that uses all MF gear knows what he’s actually doing.

Dean Calaway.9718:

I’m not sure how you find MF is handicapping the team, if a player dies a lot that doesn’t mean he’s running with MF, maybe he’s just bad or it’s not his day.
Personally I think someone that uses all MF gear knows what he’s actually doing.

It’s handicapping the team because due to the stats difference they perform significantly worse.
And no, MF has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not someone is a skilled/knowledgeable player All it shows is how a player is willing to sacrifice damage or survival for something that isn’t combat related and only for themselves.

I’m done reply to your rants Kaimick as your posts all boil down to the fact you don’t believe there is any problem sacrficing your POTENTIAL performance in group play for personal gain. That’s the issue I have with MF as it is an anti-social stat.
You say it’s a pipe dream to get others to work together? GW2 has already achived so much more in terms of group play and co-operation then any other MMO before it simply by designing the game to reward players for doing so. The current state of MF however rewards players for working agianst others rather then with them. This suggestion is just another way to encourge players to work for each other rather then against one another.
Oh, and about we not being able to read your english? You do realise I don’t care if you have personally reformed or not right? This isn’t about you, it’s about the state of the game and as long as there is the option to screw over the rest of your party for profit I’m going to have a problem with it.
Lastly you’ve really got to drop this witch hunt crap you keep spouting to try and make your case stronger as you’re doing the exact same thing.

Kaaboose.3897:

you don’t believe there is any problem sacrficing your POTENTIAL performance in group play for personal gain.

Right, everyone should be practicing dungeon runs at least 25 hours a week. And I want everyone who has not done so to be branded so I can avoid them from joining my party. It’s really their fault for sacrificing their potential performance for personal gain (e.g. enjoying doing other stuff).

Kaaboose.3897:

That’s the issue I have with MF as it is an anti-social stat.

The proposed solution here would make MF the only social stat, as I’ve stated before.

Kaaboose.3897:

You say it’s a pipe dream to get others to work together? GW2 has already achived so much more in terms of group play and co-operation then any other MMO before it simply by designing the game to reward players for doing so. The current state of MF however rewards players for working agianst others rather then with them.

For some reason, I’m having difficulty understanding how an MF user would benefit from working against the team? They need to slay stuff for the MF to kick in, therefore they’d be the last person to leech.

Kaaboose.3897:

This suggestion is just another way to encourge players to work for each other rather then against one another.

Although some could claim it’s a whole other way of being selfish. “I don’t want to bring MF gear, I want to be able to kill stuff fast. Hey, everyone else should bring MF gear, so that I can have both high damage and high MF.”
If you want to share one stat, share them all. Or stop using “selfish” as an argument.

Kaaboose.3897:

and as long as there is the option to screw over the rest of your party for profit I’m going to have a problem with it.

Removing MF, or sharing it, does not solve the problem you seem to be having. You can screw over the rest of your party in numerous ways. MF hardly is one of them.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Kaaboose.3897:

you don’t believe there is any problem sacrficing your POTENTIAL performance in group play for personal gain.

Right, everyone should be practicing dungeon runs at least 25 hours a week. And I want everyone who has not done so to be branded so I can avoid them from joining my party. It’s really their fault for sacrificing their potential performance for personal gain (e.g. enjoying doing other stuff).

Been over this many times before. I’m not asking perfection, I’m asking you to kindly not handicap yourself and your team just so you can have more loot then the rest of us.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Kaaboose.3897:

That’s the issue I have with MF as it is an anti-social stat.

The proposed solution here would make MF the only social stat, as I’ve stated before.

All stats contribute to the group in their current form. MF is the only one that does not.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Kaaboose.3897:

You say it’s a pipe dream to get others to work together? GW2 has already achived so much more in terms of group play and co-operation then any other MMO before it simply by designing the game to reward players for doing so. The current state of MF however rewards players for working agianst others rather then with them.

For some reason, I’m having difficulty understanding how an MF user would benefit from working against the team? They need to slay stuff for the MF to kick in, therefore they’d be the last person to leech.

That’s only with the Sigil, which leachers never run becuase they know they’ll be asked to not use it/be removed from the group. With the built in MF all they need is for their team to kill the mob for them.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Kaaboose.3897:

This suggestion is just another way to encourge players to work for each other rather then against one another.

Although some could claim it’s a whole other way of being selfish. “I don’t want to bring MF gear, I want to be able to kill stuff fast. Hey, everyone else should bring MF gear, so that I can have both high damage and high MF.”
If you want to share one stat, share them all. Or stop using “selfish” as an argument.

But they are all being shared. Everyones stats are working together to overcome the dungeon. MF is not.

Fred Fargone.3127:

Kaaboose.3897:

and as long as there is the option to screw over the rest of your party for profit I’m going to have a problem with it.

Removing MF, or sharing it, does not solve the problem you seem to be having. You can screw over the rest of your party in numerous ways. MF hardly is one of them.

MF being shared does solve the problem I have with it as it will be in line with all other stats and contribute something to the group. As for MF not being the only way to screw over the party, this is true. However MF is actually ENCOURAGING players to screw one another over while all other forms of screwing over boil down to the player doing so being a certifiable kitten.

Kaaboose.3897:

Been over this many times before. I’m not asking perfection, I’m asking you to kindly not handicap yourself and your team just so you can have more loot then the rest of us.

Well, I can’t really seem to understand how that wouldn’t be asking for perfection. It’s just a few % increase or decrease in efficiency. Who actually cares about the 10 seconds it takes to land those extra 2-3 hits?

Kaaboose.3897:

All stats contribute to the group in their current form. MF is the only one that does not.

Well not really what I was talking about. Share them all if you want to share one.

Kaaboose.3897:

That’s only with the Sigil, which leachers never run becuase they know they’ll be asked to not use it/be removed from the group. With the built in MF all they need is for their team to kill the mob for them.

I’m not sure what you are talking about. If you only sit back and watch (leech) you will not get tagged for the kill, making your MF useless.
Actively contributing to kill something does not equal leeching. MF gives higher incentive to actively contribute to killing, therefore the MF user would be the last person to leech.

Kaaboose.3897:

But they are all being shared. Everyones stats are working together to overcome the dungeon. MF is not.

Last I checked, I did not receive +power, +toughness, +anything from the gear of my teammates. Has there been a sneaky update I missed?
Lets say we actually shared MF, but not other stats.
There are players A,B,C,D,E who all want to maximize their profit from the dungeon run.
Everyone of them wants the others to bring MF, but do not want to bring it themselves. (Except for D, who wishes they all went full MF)
Why?
A figures he can kill more efficiently, and hence get better loot, by going full glass cannon. He wants the other four to bring max MF so he would get the best possible loot.
B figures he can tag more kills, and hence get larger quantity of loot, by maximizing the survivability of his gear.
C tries to balance between survivability and power,
D actually wishes they all went full MF
E just wishes people stopped arguing about it and did the dungeon already.

So… how sharing MF without sharing other attributes would change anything?

Kaaboose.3897:

MF being shared does solve the problem I have with it as it will be in line with all other stats and contribute something to the group.

Or not.
At the moment, nothing is shared-> Everything is in line with everything.
Sharing one stat, not sharing others -> Everything else is in line, one is not.
Sure, MF benefits the person using it. It also motivates him to try harder.

Kaaboose.3897:

As for MF not being the only way to screw over the party, this is true. However MF is actually ENCOURAGING players to screw one another over while all other forms of screwing over boil down to the player doing so being a certifiable kitten.

If MF was really that strong incentive to screw others over, why doesn’t everyone use it? And since not everyone uses it, why isn’t the player base divided into two camps, where others are pro, and others anti MF? (Atm we got tiny fraction of pro and anti, rest couldn’t care less)

Well, to answer that, the simple fact remains that Skill >> Armor. Nobody really cares about the few % of efficiency lost due to opting to use MF instead of balanced dungeon armor. It’s marginal. And as such, acceptable.
What is not acceptable however is sharing one stat over others. If you want to share one, share them all. Sharing just one is like saying that “We should benefit from you, but you are not entitled to benefit from us”.

Fred Fargone.3127:

SNIP!

You’re really good at ignoring everything I write out in detail so I’ll summerise once again:

*All other stats equiped by party members benifit the party, EVEN IF THEY ARE NOT SHARED. MF does not benift the party, shared it would.

*The drop in stats from items is 48% AT BEST from a full set of MF gear, though a lot run rare as the cost is substatially cheaper.

*Leeching is reffering to riding on the other party members coattails. You are bringing less stats to the group with MF then normal gear. Your are receiveing increased rewards by bringing less stats to the group. The players bringing more stats are reciving less. How does that seem fair?

*As for nobody caring about it this thread has been bumped and thumbs up repetativly since it came out. The video itself has received far more comments agreeing with it then against or indifferent.

*Lastly, why would you be against the proposed change other then the fact it means MF will no longer allow you to recieve more loot then your fellow party members?

Kaaboose.3897:

Fred Fargone.3127:

SNIP!

SNIP!

It is clear here that he is an advocate of his on way, and it is clear that if someone doesn’t agree with you it must be because he is a MF user ( as you suspected of me at first then finnally admited to it later ).

Bottom line is you can say I have thumbs up and bumps here, but over half of the people commenting on this is telling you that you are wrong for crying about it. The other half is in agerance. On your Youtube site you have people that dis agree and agree the same as here, but the people that agree is far from 400k or even 600k players.

What do 400k and kittenave anythign to do with the game?

• The average Congurent Player Base of the game at a 6 month point, which happens to be 800k roughly at this time. So yes you have what we will generously give you as 2k people that agree with you, which seems like a lot, but in the whole picture it is a very small %.

Arena Net Obviously has no issue and see no problems like your personal opinion seems to have with MF. How can this be even remoutly known?

• Arena Net keeps adding more MF gear to ascended items and regular gear
• in no Podcast or Vlog cast with developers has anything negative been said about MF or better yet has ever been said to even remotly make me think they have an issue with how it is working.
• No interview has ever touched on MF as a problem. For as many people as you claim to have a problem and how this is ruining the game because of it, Arena Net sure is not spearheading any comment to support this. Any time there has been issues with anything major in the game [ Culling, pvp skills, Boss fights, content issues] They have been adressed. Even Mounts and Race changes have gotten Offical response from the Dev team and Moderators in lude of the Dev team about where Arena Net stands. MF however has gotten nothing.

There is a term Silence is complaince, in this case the silence on this issue means they have no intention of changing it or see nothing wrong with it.

You want to ignore me because I ask you the hard questions you avoid, and like a broken record you keep going back to the same old statements. Good Game Ol Chap, handled that well. You never even answered my question

• Why does it matter how fast you get there if you can still complete the dungeon with little to no issues?
• Why do you keep ignoring my suggestion that would not only support what you want ( which is no MF in your group ) and keep things as they are now.

TO the other poster that stated a Indicator buff would lead to Inspect featuere, I agree that it could potentially lead to that, and I am not a fan of inspect. Although we are streching when we are assuming that. Not to mention that out of the countless threads for a request on Inspect function the moderators have commented with

We currently have no plans for this or anythign like this in the near future

Now the inspect threads have stoped, I honestly don’t see them adding anything to anyone to determine weather or not people have MF because it is not an issue. I realize it is an issue to those that dislike it, but to arena Net and the rest of the 80% of this game it isn’t.

So here is my lasting suggestion that I am sure Kabbosse and others will ignore like they have been for the past 4 months.

• join a guild that also doesn’t like MF ( I am on Blackgate and there are at least 8 guilds I knwo of that refuse to have any member with MF, if you are found with it youare booted from the guild )

• get a group of friends together that also do not like MF. I am sure there are a lot out there like you all claim there is, this shouldn’t be a hard venture

• start your own guild make that a rule NO MF on dungeon runs or fractals

If you don’t want to do those 3 options because of what ever reason, which will ensure you will never or at least next to never have to deal with MF ever( ergo the MF issue how it is now will never bother you at all and therefore will never neeed to be changed so you can now leech instead of them ), then you don’t really deserve to have any leverage to cry about it or a change to it.

This game is about play the way you want, Which means they have offered you pleanty of avenues to Leveling, pvp, things to do, and play with others. If you don’t take advatage of anyof those options doesn’t make the Company and game bad or broken or failing. Trying to form the community to play the way you want to play is not making this game community friendly and team work orientated ( maybe for you ) it is making the game the way you want( and the Small % that think like you), with out regardes to the other small % that use said problem like a religion.

Contunie from above text ^^^

FYI Being Selfish is a way of life and it is a way to play. Therefore being Selfish is their right to play the way they want weather you agree or not. There are aspects in this game that do not center around team effort or group play. But to say they are not team players because of one stat is silly, I would agree if MF users walked up hit every mob once then stood there. Although regardless of How effective they are in your mind, if they are in there hitting the boss or mob(s) unrelenting, then they are contributing to the group. At this point you might as well be asking for all dungeons at Explorer mode to be 80 only since a 35,45,55,65,75 are not bringing as much to the table because they are not 80 and they are doing it on purpose and for selfish to reason since they could just wait till they are 80 before running the dungeon, so in turn they are knowningly and purposfully handicapping thr group for their own selfish reasons.

to that I have one question for you
Sup???

BEASTGATE