Guild Wars 2

TL:DR – Design Content Around Inspiring Achievements. Don’t Just Attach Achievements To Content.

*TL:DR2 – Less Arbitrary, Guaranteed Achievements. More Achievements That Encourage Thought And Consideration, Exploration Of Possibilities and Immersion.

Currently, there are three different types of achievements:

• The Unavoidable – These achievements are pretty much guaranteed as you play through the game. Things like the Weapon Master, Slayer. These achievements are akin to giving a kid a gold star for turning up to school. These achievements are bad. The content should be rewarding and engaging enough without the need for achievements such as these.

• The Optional – These achievements don’t need to be done, but, like unavoidable achievements, you could probably get them simply through playing the game. Things like the deposit X gold, Personal Story. These achievements are strictly there to extend play length. These achievements aren’t necessarily bad. They give little goals for the player to work towards that aren’t part of the core experience, whether because of irrelevance or difficulty.

• The Inspiring – These achievements are the more rewarding in terms of gameplay value and making use of content. These types of achievements suggest and inspire an alternate way to play through the core experience. The key difference between this type of achievement and the last is that this type of achievement gets you to think about how you could tackle the content differently. Currently in GW2, there are no achievements that fit this type.

So what am I getting at?

I feel more content should be designed around the last type of achievement, and not the first two. Doing this would create a more engaging experience as players would have to consider their actions and approach, not merely play through it.

These achievements and ways of playing shouldn’t be made known to the player; the whole point of these achievements is to get the player to consider how they’re going to tackle the goal in order to enhance the game-play experience, and not simply to get the achievements themselves (although we all know there will be the people who search up the walkthroughs without trying for themselves, finish all achievements in a day or two, and then complain they’re bored without truly appreciating the content).

Rewards

Because of the new reward system, having achievements such as this could have specific skins that will be unlocked through the Achievement system.

Example – Dungeons

Achievements:

• [Dungeon] Vanquisher – Slay all enemies in the dungeon. Awards weapon skins that drip blood.
• [Dungeon Boss]’s Assassain – Kill the Dungeon bosses without aggroing any trash. We already got mob skipping. Why not make it a more engaging option for completing the dungeon? Awards weapon skins that are quite elegant, and create a cape made of shadows.
• [Dungeon] Poacher – Steal items (intel, artifacts ect) without aggroing anything.
• [Dungeon] Demolisher – Place explosives at key points and make your way back to the exit in order to blow the dungeon up, without aggroing anything.

How do these help dungeon design?

• More open area, less linear paths where players consider how they’re going to get to their goal, and not simply follow the path to it. Maps can also use the Z axis (climbing up and crawling across a cliff-face to sneak up on a boss, as opposed charging head-first, for example). Strategy and tactics don’t just have to apply to the fights themselves.

• Mob mechanics and behaviour – mobs that run off to sound the alarm, patrolling mobs that have a randomised path, randomised group make-ups, random dungeon boss placement.

• Dungeon Mechanics – Area effects that get you to consider your approach. Maybe fighting a patrol in a particular area is a bad idea, because of some buff they get from a shrine.

Now, although I’ve suggested as using Achievements as the baseline, you can do the same with goals:

Goal – Kill Evil McBadguy

Ways of doing so:

• Smash his base and mooks up
• Go all sneaky sneaky…ect

The only reasons I used achievements is because:

• There are too many here’s an achievement for doing what you’re doing anyway type of achievements.
• There aren’t enough achievements that show that you’ve truly achieved something. Creating content with randomised parameters (mob composition and patrol paths, boss locations ect) means the player has to pay attention, as well as provide a slightly different take on how you’re going to tackle the problem.
• Highlighting the achievements (in some way, an end goal and way of playing) in the design phrase makes it easier to outline the paths the designers would create.
• I just finished watching the Achievements’ video from Extra Credits, as well as having this new Achievement System.

Surely the JPs and Explorer achievements fit your Inspiring category? I do agree that we could do with less Optional and absolutely no Unavoidable achievements, but to say that we have no good ones at all is a bit excessive.

Those dungeon goals you describe sound exactly like what we have already: a choice between several explorable paths. And guess what, you DO get achievements for doing all the different dungeon paths!

Thank you for replying

Mist Y.5214:

Surely the JPs and Explorer achievements fit your Inspiring category? I do agree that we could do with less Optional and absolutely no Unavoidable achievements, but to say that we have no good ones at all is a bit excessive.

This was written before my morning coffee kicked in. Hardly an excuse, but it’s the reason why some of what I say time-to-time just doesn’t make much sense.

Yeah, looking back now, I do agree with JP’s being Inspiring. The rest of the Explorer Achievements though (Krytan Explorer ect), not so much, simply because of the way they’re presented. You got icons on the map that direct you to map completion, as well as the loading screen and World Map that shows you how much you got left. This turns it more into an Optional Achievement (unless the player decides to, as soon as they make a new character, turn off all icons, in which case the player isn’t influenced by the icons).

It’s little, subtle differences that define Inspiring (gets the player to actively think about exploring) and Optional (I’ll go over there because I need that icon for World Completion) Achievements. Obviously, this will also depend on the player as well perceives the Achievement. A player may consider this an Inspiring Achievement, because the achievement itself ‘inspired’ them to go exploring, not for the achievement, but for the sights itself, whereas another may just consider this another task to get out of the way.

Mist Y.5214:

Those dungeon goals you describe sound exactly like what we have already: a choice between several explorable paths. And guess what, you DO get achievements for doing all the different dungeon paths!

The key difference is that when you choose a dungeon path, you don’t get to choose how to complete it. You have to go to x, do y and finish at z.

When I’m talking about choice, I’m talking about having goal v, with w, x, y and z as ways to complete it.

For example, say the goal is to kill some important Flame Legion guy hidden in an underground base.

With that, you have a number of options:

• Plow through his minions to get to him.
• Sneak around, avoiding patrols, and kill him without anyone noticing.
• Carrying bombs supplies by some Iron Legion guy, setting them at points where the support structures are weak, and then getting back to the exit, where you can take them all out at once.

One specific goal, with a variety of ways to complete it, where players must decide how they’re going to tackle the content, as opposed to being told ‘this is how you’ll do it. With that then, you got other multiple little options (side-quests, if you will), such as stealing battle-plans, rare artifacts, killing side-bosses, freeing prisoners, capturing lone guards and getting info off of them ect. Things that are mentioned in passing, but not advertised as a core component of completing the dungeon.

With the Explorer ones, you have to go to various out-of-the-way locations that aren’t required for map completion. Okay so most of them are jumping puzzles and mini achievements, but there are a few places (Aurora’s Remains is an excellent example) that you wouldn’t normally go to but there’s something interesting to reward you for looking.

When you enter an explorable dungeon, the goal is already determined. Choosing the path IS choosing the method. In CoF for example, your goal is to take a dump on the Flame Legion, and you choose whether to destroy their new weapon, defeat Baelfire’s ghost, or kill the new tribune. All of those options serve the same goal. TA is an even better example – all routes lead the same end boss, and you kill the same 3 Nightmare Court fools along the way.
What you’re asking for is more variance within each dungeon path (a bit like whether or not to kill the inquest in CoE path 1?), and yes that would be cool. Random different encounters like in the dredge fractal and Molten Foundry would also be sweet.
Side quests? Sure, that’s what I was expecting when I heard about “explorable” dungeon paths, and I was disappointed to find that they’re all just linear stories.

Mist Y.5214:

With the Explorer ones, you have to go to various out-of-the-way locations that aren’t required for map completion. Okay so most of them are jumping puzzles and mini achievements, but there are a few places (Aurora’s Remains is an excellent example) that you wouldn’t normally go to but there’s something interesting to reward you for looking.

Haven’t been to Aurora’s Remains yet.

I think, all in all, it’s down to the player. If a player is going to treat Achievements like a checklist, as opposed to an opportunity to experience another side of the game (although one isn’t mutually exclusive to the other; a player may treat them like a checklist at first, only to find they start to enjoy that particular style of play), then there’s no helping that.

TL:DR – Inspiring is different for everyone

Mist Y.5214:

When you enter an explorable dungeon, the goal is already determined. Choosing the path IS choosing the method. In CoF for example, your goal is to take a dump on the Flame Legion, and you choose whether to destroy their new weapon, defeat Baelfire’s ghost, or kill the new tribune. All of those options serve the same goal. TA is an even better example – all routes lead the same end boss, and you kill the same 3 Nightmare Court fools along the way.

What you’re asking for is more variance within each dungeon path (a bit like whether or not to kill the inquest in CoE path 1?), and yes that would be cool. Random different encounters like in the dredge fractal and Molten Foundry would also be sweet.
Side quests? Sure, that’s what I was expecting when I heard about “explorable” dungeon paths, and I was disappointed to find that they’re all just linear stories.

Asking for more variance in each Dungeon Path is probably what I’m asking for.

But not scripted (choose method 1, 2 or 3). Guy tells you there’s someone that needs to be whacked, but leaves it up to you as to how you do it (Slaughtering everyone, sneaky-sneaky [mobs are already skipped; why not make it more challenging and engaging to skip mobs as a legitimate way of completing the content? I.E, if you just run through them aggroing everything, someone sets off an alarm, the objective becomes much more harder to complete, whereas sneaking past, not aggroing anything doesn’t set the alarm off.])

Inside that path then would be other various tasks (collecting intel, destroying weapons, killing side-bosses ect) that aren’t advertised, merely mentioned, and are given at random times.

Less pointing and linear paths, more options on on how to deal with the threat at the end of that path, and more consideration to the little details.

Heck, maybe events open up in the World for x amount of time if you complete these mini objectives, further cementing dungeons and their place in the world? For example, you collect plans for the Flame Legions next attack, and an event opens up where you can set up defenses and defend said place.

Your “other options” revolve around perma-stealth because most dungeons require players to fight in certain areas and also have unavoidable trash.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Haven’t been to Aurora’s Remains yet.

If you played GW1, you’re in for a nostalgic treat!

Esplen.3940:

Your “other options” revolve around perma-stealth because most dungeons require players to fight in certain areas and also have unavoidable trash.

Yes, unfortunately this wouldn’t be able to be applied to current dungeons without massive revamping.

Maybe future dungeons though?

Mist Y.5214:

TheDaiBish.9735:

Haven’t been to Aurora’s Remains yet.

If you played GW1, you’re in for a nostalgic treat!

It’s nothing to do with the Aurora Glade mission from GW1, is it?

kitten , I hated trying to solo that. Took me forever >.<

Why don’t you go and see? =P

How to think and play outside of the box:

Don’t revolve your game experience around achievements. Come up with your own ideas, do them, and don’t just use the Achievement panel as a checklist of everything you need to do in the game.

Now you can thoroughly enjoy and create new ways to play this game. As many new ways as you can imagine. Have fun.

Genavelle.9516:

How to think and play outside of the box:

Don’t revolve your game experience around achievements. Come up with your own ideas, do them, and don’t just use the Achievement panel as a checklist of everything you need to do in the game.

Now you can thoroughly enjoy and create new ways to play this game. As many new ways as you can imagine. Have fun.

Actually, I’ve been living by my Achievement Panel for the past week and I’ve been enjoying myself more. Now I have things to do other than farm CoF and I can figure out where to go for this slayer or that slayer. :D

It’s fun doing it without guides.

Genavelle.9516:

How to think and play outside of the box:

Don’t revolve your game experience around achievements. Come up with your own ideas, do them, and don’t just use the Achievement panel as a checklist of everything you need to do in the game.

Now you can thoroughly enjoy and create new ways to play this game. As many new ways as you can imagine. Have fun.

I do. I very, very rarely check my Achievements, unless I get one and I don’t know what it is (I got a boss achievement the other day). I also never use walkthroughs. Currently my latest way of playing is getting World Completion with all icons hidden.

This topic is more about linear content that gives you a strict way of completing it, rather than making the player think about different ways.

It’s all well and good trying to do dungeons in Whites (another thing we’ve tried), but at the end of it, you still got to follow a strict path when doing that dungeon, as opposed to having the freedom to explore different ways of achieving the objective. Considering exploration is a strong theme in this game, I thought it’d carry over to the dungeons as well.