Guild Wars 2

Background of D3’s Skill System: While I in no way endorse Blizzard or what it stands for, one thing I missed from playing Diablo 3 was the sheer customization that the skill system allowed. A brief description of said skill system followed that you were allowed to choose any skill and put it onto your bar of six skills. Upon choosing those six skills, you were also given the additional option of transforming each and every skill into something new and unique by slotting a talent effect.

Example of D3’s rune system: For example, let’s look at the Monk’s Spirit Generating Attack, Crippling Wave. By itself, Crippling Wave is “Unleash a series of large sweeping attacks that cause 110% weapon damage to all enemies in front of you. Every third hit damages all enemies around you and dazes them, slowing their movement speed by 30% and attack speed by 20% for 3 seconds.”However, you can also slot 5 rune effects, each which transform the way the skill is used and its primary function. These are listed below:

1) Mangle: Increase damage to 143% weapon damage.
2) Concussion: Enemies hit by Crippling Wave inflict 20% less damage for 3 seconds.
3) Rising Tide: Critical Hits generate an additional 5 Spirit for each target hit.
4) Tsunami: The range of Crippling Wave’s third strike is increased to 17 years and the effect of the movement speed reduction is increased to 60%.
5) Breaking Wave: Enemies hit by Crippling Wave take 10% additional damage from all attacks for 3 seconds.

As one can see, the implementation of these rune effects enhances the core skill. This has a wide range of implications as it allows for a tremendous amount of customization for the player. If you’re feeling like increasing your damage, you take Mangle. If you’re feeling like supporting and surviving, take Concussion. If your build is Spirit Heavy and you have a high crit chance, take Rising Tide. If you want to provide additional utility, take Tsunami/Breaking Wave. This allows for the same skill to have a wide array of uses.

How can this work in GW2? GW2 Talent System: GW2’s weapon system is one that locks the left hand side of your bar (of course…the choice is in picking a weapon, but that’s definitely not enough customization for in-depth combat). This effectively hampers a lot of the potential creativity and weapons that could be used by every profession. While we are still locked into the first 5 skills, allowing us to equip “Talents” would allow each and every weapon to compete in multiple roles…allowing for an incredibly diverse weapon and trait setup system. The talents for GW2 could be organized as: Offensive, Defensive, Control, Support, Utility. Each weapon skill would have approximately 4-5 additional talent effects that would enhance the core skill. Continue’d on the 2nd post where I list a few examples, and how talents could be acquired.

A few examples: Let’s take the Guardian’s “Wave of Wrath” Staff ability. Now an appropriate talent setup (this is only suggestive, definitely not finalized and should thus not be criticized for balance) would follow:
1) Offensive: Casting Wave of Wrath grants 3 stacks of might to yourself for 5 seconds but now has a cooldown of 3 seconds.
2) Defensive: Casting Wave of Wrath consecutively 3 times now lowers the cooldown of your next Staff Ability by 15%.
3) Support: Wave of Wrath also removes one condition from yourself and 5 nearby allies. This effect may only trigger once every 6 seconds.
4) Utility: Wave of Wrath now has a range of 1200 but deals 10% less damage.

Now, let’s look at the Guardian’s “Orb of Light” Staff ability. Now an appropriate talent setup would follow:
1) Offensive: Detonating Orb of Light no longer heals allies but instead inflicts 5 stacks of vulnerability for 3 seconds. Detonating Orb of Light also incurs no additional cooldown increase with this talent equipped.
2) Control: Detonating Orb of Light no longer heals allies but inflicts Blindness for 3 seconds.
3) Control: Detonating Orb of Light no longer heals allies but performs a 0.25 Daze for 3 seconds.
4) Support: Detonating Orb of Light now grants you the “Healer’s Impact” Boon for 3 seconds. Your next jump now heals allies in a 600 radius around you when you land.
5) Utility: Drastically increases the speed at which the orb is fired. The impact of the detonation radius is also increased.

With the addition of these “talents”, we have now transformed the mostly-support Guardian’s Staff weapon, into a weapon that can be utilized offensively, defensively and with control/miscellaneous utility as well. From these two skills alone, the possibilities are endless as you can mix and match offensive/defensive/support/control/utility talents to directly mimic the playstyle you want to play. A support guardian should not have to be forced into picking a Staff…just like an Offensive Guardian should be forced to not have a staff.

Implementation into the Game: Talents can be acquired naturally via leveling up (similar to how Trait points are acquired). As a character begins to progress towards level 80, more and more talent options will become available for them to use. At level 80 however, a single character will have access to all talent types for all weapons.

Conclusion: Please leave any comments/suggestions below and feel free to constructively criticize it. Try not to get too distracted by the numbers/clauses of the talents in the examples as they are just that…examples. Their purpose is to demonstrate the idea behind a talent system rather than postulating a definitive suggestion for Guardian weapon skills. How does General Discussion feel about such an idea? This is definitely not a means to an end as a suggestion, but rather a tool I want to use to garner discussion on the matter.

This is one way to make the current GW2 mechanics have more depth. I like it but I disagree with buying skills with gems. The last thing we want is a pay to win game.

Yeah, you’re definitely right about that. Thank you Tinboy! I’ll go ahead and remove that now.

Good luck balancing that. Didn’t work especially well in D3, I doubt it would do more then force people to play with certain ones.

Edit: Don’t get me wrong, it would be a cool thing but I think in the end it would cause more problem then help the game. :/

It’ll have the same problem as in GW1. Too many useless skills.

I would really like this. If D3 did ANYthing right it’s this one aspect of its skill system.

The only thing I would see wrong with this is it’s unlikelihood of being implemented in anything other than a major expansion to be purchased in the future. To be honest, though, I’ve not gotten excited about spending meager money on an expansion pack for anything in my life. I would more than I already intend to were this a part of the package.

Abbehemoth.2471:

Good luck balancing that. Didn’t work especially well in D3, I doubt it would do more then force people to play with certain ones.

Edit: Don’t get me wrong, it would be a cool thing but I think in the end it would cause more problem then help the game. :/

I don’t see this forcing anyone into any kind of role, I see it opening up more roles that people would want with their preferred class. Like people wanting a support guardian. That’d be crazy viable at this point, in many different ways even.

Ishiga.6053:

I don’t see this forcing anyone into any kind of role, I see it opening up more roles that people would want with their preferred class. Like people wanting a support guardian. That’d be crazy viable at this point, in many different ways even.

Because there are never any builds that rise above the rest? A certain way to play?
“LF FULL ZERKER WARRIOR COF 1&2” Anyone?
Ah , you want to play really high level fractals? Yeah just chill for a bit while I spam chat for a Elementalist of the Monk with extra monk runes.

We need a buff ranger/guard/engi as well otherwise we won’t be a full zerker team with bunker-ish buffed stats all the time!

There is no worry at all for you that this could happen? Not the slightest chance?

Edit: What I mean is that they would need some serious heavy duty testing on this before it is even considered for release.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Arena Net doesn’t want super-high-depth customization.

They’re moving away from GW1 and Diablo 3 because they want to get into the eSports scene. They want what League of Legends has.

That’s why the UI is so cleanly simplistic, why gear is separated by profession-types, why each profession has such distinctively coloured animations.

They want the game to be spectator-friendly.
And that means there is a limit they must adhere to in how complex the game’s mechanics can become so that, at the very least, color-commentators can grasp what’s going on and effectively convey to casuals what’s going on.

I’m fairly certain this is the point of the trait system. It obviously isn’t as specific as super buffing a single power multiple times, but through the traits you can increase the power, capability and versatility of specific types of powers, from weapons to skills.

DreamOfACure.4382:

Sorry to burst your bubble, but Arena Net doesn’t want super-high-depth customization.

They’re moving away from GW1 and Diablo 3 because they want to get into the eSports scene. They want what League of Legends has.

That’s why the UI is so cleanly simplistic, why gear is separated by profession-types, why each profession has such distinctively coloured animations.

They want the game to be spectator-friendly.
And that means there is a limit they must adhere to in how complex the game’s mechanics can become so that, at the very least, color-commentators can grasp what’s going on and effectively convey to casuals what’s going on.

GW1 had an amazing competitive and e-sport community as well…I don’t know where you’re getting that view from (yeah, there was a spectator mode!). The implementation of a hypothetical talent system is not going to mess up the UI (?), not going to tamper with gear (?), and is definitely not going to mess with profession specific colours (?).

If anything, this would make the game more of an e-sport as more professions/weapons would be able to fulfill more roles.

Abbehemoth.2471:

Ishiga.6053:

I don’t see this forcing anyone into any kind of role, I see it opening up more roles that people would want with their preferred class. Like people wanting a support guardian. That’d be crazy viable at this point, in many different ways even.

Because there are never any builds that rise above the rest? A certain way to play?
“LF FULL ZERKER WARRIOR COF 1&2” Anyone?
Ah , you want to play really high level fractals? Yeah just chill for a bit while I spam chat for a Elementalist of the Monk with extra monk runes.

We need a buff ranger/guard/engi as well otherwise we won’t be a full zerker team with bunker-ish buffed stats all the time!

There is no worry at all for you that this could happen? Not the slightest chance?

Edit: What I mean is that they would need some serious heavy duty testing on this before it is even considered for release.

I don’t understand in the slightest your use of those examples…a talent system would more or less, equalize all professions in all roles. So why would a LFG system be needed then if everyone (to a certain extent) can support, everyone can damage, and everyone can control? It would open up a plethora of choices and allow every single weapon to perform, with moderate efficiency, every single role…making every single stat combination, and every single armor/rune type that much more cost effective.

Obviously Arenanet would have to undergo serious heavy duty testing…but doesn’t everything require heavy duty testing, regardless of how complex it is?

KinkyPotato.4219:

GW1 had an amazing competitive and e-sport community as well…I don’t know where you’re getting that view from.

The view is from the game being an utter nightmare to balance.

There were so many modes and skills that ArenaNet was unable to set a standard for balance. The amount of balance they achieve was not nearly ideal from a design-perspective.

You and many players may have enjoyed it, but a lot of other players hated it because of the elitism that sprouted from the many game modes that made niche builds mandatory and ArenaNet clearly wanted to wash their hands of that experience.

—

And if you’ve ever watched the recent GW2 sPvP games, those are way more exciting and simple to enjoy then a GW1 pvp match.

I don’t need to understand every skill / profession to understand what’s going on.

The occurrence of a random effect that requires in-game-experience to understand is drastically reduced, which is better for both the game’s eSports potential and the difficulties in game-balance.

—

To sum things up:

• They’re following League of Legends’ example.
• That example being that a game can be simple and have depth.
• They want a game that even normal non-gamers can enjoy watching, not just the die-hard fans – So that their fanbase can grow.

That goal is rooted into virtually every part of the game, and I can earnestly say that if a suggestion conflicts with it – It won’t ever happen.

Kal Spiro.9745:

I’m fairly certain this is the point of the trait system. It obviously isn’t as specific as super buffing a single power multiple times, but through the traits you can increase the power, capability and versatility of specific types of powers, from weapons to skills.

As of now, the trait system is still, in its current form, suggestive of which path to take. What if I enjoy the greatsword but want to support my allies? Aside from using shouts/banners, I have to return to using the greatsword as a primary damage/mobility weapon. What if I enjoy the axes but want to control my enemies? A system like this would allow you to have even greater customization and give you even more flexibility when it comes to your trait selection.

GW2 already has a similar system, but instead having variations for each skill, and passives, both passives and alternate skills are included in the trait system.

They shouldn’t change Runes for this, but instead they should implement a new system for this…

There should exist a TALENT SYSTEM, where players can make changes and improvements to skills like here being shown.

Thats also the way how the trait system should have worked on ione of the very first concepts for the trait system, where traits had a real big impact on how skills worked and looked like.

One thing of them I can remember very well on is a trait of this ealier trait system concept that got later on the axe is, s trait, that changes the way how the elementalist’s fire skill lava font (or how its named in English, that one scepter skill with short DoT damage) to a different effect, where out of the lava would shoot fireballs to nearby enemies…

Anet should bring back this gameplay concept and massively improve it with suggestions just like basically this one here, because stuff like this is it, what greatly improves character progression/development and helps in making real individual unique characters with their very own fighting styles and unique skills..

The current trait system is just cheap and way too one sided for that to come anyhoy just only slightly near to the possibilities one would have with beign able to fully customize the ways how your skilsl should work and what kind of effects and side effects they should have….

Runes should stay as armory upgrades.
But just like collecting Skill Points via leveling up to 80 and finding them everywhere on maps as challenges, players shpould be able to receive TALENT POINTS via leveling up and by finding Talent Point Challenges in maps.

With Talent Points would players be able to change their Talent Tree to make changes in the effects of their used Skills or to add new side effects for their used skills.

If GW2 would have currently a Trait System AND together with it a TALENT SYSTEM, both could be used as a synergy to improve AND CHANGE howe a character fights in battles with their weapon skills and utility skills ect..

The Trait System would be then more like the system, which is responsible for PASSIVE skill buffs, while the Talent System would be responsible for the ACTIVE skill buffs and direct skill changes. Or vice versa however Anet may like it more…

The Point is, the currecnt Skill/Trait systems needs some serious improvements in future to keep the game interesting enough over years.
It seriously needs to become more complex while staying easy enough to learn and hard to master, so that you can clearly see a difference in people between skillful playing and just button mashing and non tactical good use of talents …

If there should be really a need for some kind of “item” that should be also equipped into the armory, to place somewhere into the game some kind of “limitation”

Add to the game something like “Stigmas” or “Gravures”, or “Materias” or “Spheres” or “Essences” or “Souls” or whatever to get in place as that upgrade item, but not Runes…

Runes should stay what they are, but that doesn’t mean,mthat the Rune System in general couldn’t need an improvement also

DreamOfACure.4382:

KinkyPotato.4219:

GW1 had an amazing competitive and e-sport community as well…I don’t know where you’re getting that view from.

The view is from the game being an utter nightmare to balance.

There were so many modes and skills that ArenaNet was unable to set a standard for balance. The amount of balance they achieve was not nearly ideal from a design-perspective.

You and many players may have enjoyed it, but a lot of other players hated it because of the elitism that sprouted from the many game modes that made niche builds mandatory and ArenaNet clearly wanted to wash their hands of that experience.

—

And if you’ve ever watched the recent GW2 sPvP games, those are way more exciting and simple to enjoy then a GW1 pvp match.

I don’t need to understand every skill / profession to understand what’s going on.

The occurrence of a random effect that requires in-game-experience to understand is drastically reduced, which is better for both the game’s eSports potential and the difficulties in game-balance.

—

To sum things up:

• They’re following League of Legends’ example.
• That example being that a game can be simple and have depth.
• They want a game that even normal non-gamers can enjoy watching, not just the die-hard fans – So that their fanbase can grow.

That goal is rooted into virtually every part of the game, and I can earnestly say that if a suggestion conflicts with it – It won’t ever happen.

I think you’re overshooting the amount of complexity a system like this adds. All this does is add a layer of customization. It doesn’t radically change the way skills work….I don’t think it’d necessarily make the game harder. Using my example from above, if a guardian was using the Offensive Wave of Wrath…would that really make the game incredibly difficult to follow as a spectator? If a guardian was using the Support Orb of Light, and proceeds to jump…how in any way is that different to the Guardian’s “Selfless Daring” (Dodge to heal)? If a Guardian uses the Utility Wave of Wrath…he’s just attacking from a longer range…again, how is that difficult to follow as a spectator? You wouldn’t need to necessarily know that he has the Utility talent, just that he’s attacking at a longer range.

EDIT: The addition of a talent system is still nowhere near (not even close) the complexity the first game had because I’m using engines that currently exist ALREADY in the game to supplement weapon skills (might on cast, blind on cast, cooldown reduction, increased range…etc). If I were adding radically different mechanics, then I would understand where the concern is coming from. But, do note that these talents are still nowhere near as complex as hexes like Diversion, Shame, Guilt and boons like Protective Spirit, Spirit Bond, and Reversal of Fortune from Guild Wars 1.

Orpheal.8263:

They shouldn’t change Runes for this, but instead they should implement a new system for this…

There should exist a TALENT SYSTEM, where players can make changes and improvements to skills like here being shown.

Thats also the way how the trait system should have worked on ione of the very first concepts for the trait system, where traits had a real big impact on how skills worked and looked like.

One thing of them I can remember very well on is a trait of this ealier trait system concept that got later on the axe is, s trait, that changes the way how the elementalist’s fire skill lava font (or how its named in English, that one scepter skill with short DoT damage) to a different effect, where out of the lava would shoot fireballs to nearby enemies…

Anet should bring back this gameplay concept and massively improve it with suggestions just like basically this one here, because stuff like this is it, what greatly improves character progression/development and helps in making real individual unique characters with their very own fighting styles and unique skills..

The current trait system is just cheap and way too one sided for that to come anyhoy just only slightly near to the possibilities one would have with beign able to fully customize the ways how your skilsl should work and what kind of effects and side effects they should have….

Runes should stay as armory upgrades.
But just like collecting Skill Points via leveling up to 80 and finding them everywhere on maps as challenges, players shpould be able to receive ABILITY POINTS via leveling up and by finding Ability Point Challenges in maps.

With Ability Points would players be able to change their Talent Tree to make changes in the effects of their used Skills or to add new side effects for their used skills.

If GW2 would have currently a Trait System AND together with it a TALENT SYSTEM, both could be used as a synergy to improve AND CHANGE howe a character fights in battles with their weapon skills and utility skills ect..

The Trait System would be then more like the system, which is responsible for PASSIVE skill buffs, while the Talent System would be responsible for the ACTIVE skill buffs and direct skill changes. Or vice versa however Anet may like it more…

The Point is, the currecnt Skill/Trait systems needs some serious improvements in future to keep the game interesting enough over years. It seriously needs to become more complex while staying easy enough to learn and hard to master, so that you can clearly see a difference in people between skillful playing and just button mashing and non tactical good use of talents …

and if there should be really a need for some kind of “item” that should be also equipped into the armory, to place somewhere into the game some kind of “limitation”

Add to the game something like “Stigmas” or “Gravures”, or “Materias” or “Spheres” or “Essences” or “Souls” or whatever to get in place as that upgrade item, but not Runes…

Runes should stay what they are, but that doesn’t mean,mthat the Rune System in general couldn’t need an improvement also

Hehe, sorry…I used the wrong name for the system. I’ll change it to talents since we already have runes (DOH)!

MithranArkanere.8957:

GW2 already has a similar system, but instead having variations for each skill, and passives, both passives and alternate skills are included in the trait system.

GW2 as of right now, does NOT have a system like this. While utilities can be manipulated to fulfill certain roles, weapon skills in of themselves, cannot be manipulated (of if they can, it’s severely limited). Currently, every weapon has an underlying role. Examples: Guardian Staff = Support, Guardian Hammer = Control, Guardian Mace = Survivability. The implementation of this system would simply make a Guardian Staff/Guardian Hammer/Guardian Mace somewhat comparable in terms of dealing damage, controlling enemies, and having additional utility. Of course their underlying roles will remain the same, but they can be slightly altered with the talents for even more customization.

Orpheal.8263:

They shouldn’t change Runes for this, but instead they should implement a new system for this…

There should exist a TALENT SYSTEM, where players can make changes and improvements to skills like here being shown…etc.

I definitely agree entirely with your post which is why I made this topic in the first place. I don’t think it’d become that much MORE difficult as some people are suggesting in the forum because I’m already using EXISTING mechanics to supplement the currently lackluster weapon skills. Imagine the possibilities if you could damage with every weapon, support with every weapon, control with every weapon, and survive/have utility with every weapon? It’d make for an incredibly fresh and fun gaming experience for all as you could simply slot out different talents if you want to try something new.

Professions would still maintain their current themes and feels and players would be able to mix and match to tailor their weapons according to their wants.

Any more comments? I think it’s an elegant solution to the current problem of staleness that doesn’t completely require an overhaul of the current system. Rather, all it needs is just a fine-tuned addition to supplement the available weapons and to provide greather depth and customization without breaking the game.

In short, no.

They are after e-sport status. This means attacks must be broadcast and identifyable at a near glance. An orb of light will always be the same, have the same effect, have the same visual.

If you alter a skill, the skill would need a different visual to signify immediately to anyone that sees it exactly what you have done to it. You also cannot alter the primary function of a weapon. A mace is survivability, swords are for mobility, etc. You cannot give control to the mace and alter it’s designated role…a mace is for survivability, you can do nothing to it that alters this role or allows it farther capability.
E-sports is very simplified, when you see a weapon you know what basic tenants the individual will have…a mace user is outlasting you, trying to block your big attacks while wearing you down. A greatsword user is trying to kill you before you can kill them. Axe users are trying to deal with large numbers and high crit damage.

You cannot change this, you cannot alter this. Any customization or alteration of the weapons defeats the very purpose they are for.

And, quite honestly, it is BETTER this way. Balance can happen faster and be maintained when players do not have the ability to mess with the direct damaging abilities.