Guild Wars 2

Read from here since I’m not able to go to these conventions. After reading this, I decided a letter would be the thing to do to voice my concerns.

Dear ArenaNet,

I hope all is well and thank you for making a great game! I hope to have many more years of fun and excitement with all that you continue to roll out. I have some concerns about the new Looking For Group tool you will be adding on the 17th. …though I’m sure you’re aware of it, I’d like to just be able to put it into writing.

LFG is a wonderful tool to have in an MMO, but depending on how it is implemented, it can also be a nightmare for those of us that actually want to work together . I do honestly not know how you plan to do this or what you have planned for instance droppers…but they are a problem in other games that I do play. WoW especially. Too many people want to quit for very stupid and selfish reasons and just get a slap on the wrist for it ( a debuff not allowing them to join LFG for a few minutes ). Because LFG makes it much easier to find groups, there are a lot of people that will take those penalties so they can continue to group hop until they find a group that performs to their ideal way. When they don’t want to take a penalty, they sit in group and will do nothing but insult everyone, pull mobs on purpose, and make things all around toxic.

Be warned of “Disband Group” as well as all things similar. If an instance doesn’t go as someone wants to ( and to do it fast, fast, fast ) then they break apart the group and it makes it that much harder to wait on someone else to fill that spot in group, sitting around waiting for the next person to join. A lot of times people will get fed up with this and just give up completely.

I am sure with this being an open letter, that some fellow posters here will add their thoughts on this as well. I hope you can understand where I and others come from when we explain these things.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,
Jess

tl;dr

It’s not the people who kill people, it’s the guns who kill people.

Not at all. The LFG just needs to have something more in place to punish the ones that are a problem.

Coming here to post “too long, didn’t read” before the actual comment shows you don’t know what this thread is for.

What happens when I get invited to join a group that doesn’t conform to the standards I set forth in my lfg? What if I request an experienced group, because I am an experienced player, and then get a group of newbies? I should be punished for that?

Not objecting to your idea, just putting things forth that should be considered.

Punishments couldn’t be too harsh, if someone leaves before the end due to a drop in their connection then they’d be punished for that instead.. if you had it so it only punished those that pressed the “Leave group” button or its equivalent then people would ALT+F4. Though I do agree those that leave early do need some sort of debuff to persuade them not to..

I have never thought of an lfg tool being trouble for a game. In most games I have played, there haven’t ever actually been any real penalties for a player quitting. As long as there is some kind of voting system that requires a certain percentage of the group to kick someone things should be fine.

The only ones these types of problems affect are the farmers, because oops we lose a little bit of time.

I consider myself pretty laid back and patient when it comes to groups, but even still I run into that one group every once in while that just… will not listen, will not adapt, just trolling people that join, etc. to such an extent that it’s just too painful to stay in the group.

This applies to groups on both ends of the spectrum; “experienced” players that are so tunnel visioned into a single way of doing things that they just can’t adapt when they play with certain classes or builds other than what they seem to play. Then there are the newbs that just refuse to listen.

The only players I have ever seen affected by a lfg tool are the farmers and elitists. It doesn’t usually take that much more time to find another party member or fill someone in on something (like I said the only ones that really care about this consistently are farmers on speed runs and elitists whom also generally are just doing a speed run or farm).

I really don’t think it will be a serious issue and as such there is no need for any significant penalties.

Sollith.3502:

I have never thought of an lfg tool being trouble for a game. In most games I have played, there haven’t ever actually been any real penalties for a player quitting. As long as there is some kind of voting system that requires a certain percentage of the group to kick someone things should be fine.

The only ones these types of problems affect are the farmers, because oops we lose a little bit of time.

I consider myself pretty laid back and patient when it comes to groups, but even still I run into that one group every once in while that just… will not listen, will not adapt, just trolling people that join, etc. to such an extent that it’s just too painful to stay in the group.

This applies to groups on both ends of the spectrum; “experienced” players that are so tunnel visioned into a single way of doing things that they just can’t adapt when they play with certain classes or builds other than what they seem to play. Then there are the newbs that just refuse to listen.

The only players I have ever seen affected by a lfg tool are the farmers and elitists. It doesn’t usually take that much more time to find another party member or fill someone in on something (like I said the only ones that really care about this consistently are farmers on speed runs and elitists whom also generally are just doing a speed run or farm).

I really don’t think it will be a serious issue and as such there is no need for any significant penalties.

this attitude is exactly the problem, and I am afraid this is the one Anet chose.

it’s the “what’s the worst thing that could happen?” attitude.

just because you in your amazing MMO experience did not stumble on problems, does not mean they do not exist.

you did not even comment on the reasons mentioned as to why lfg can be bad.

you just said: well, I don’t think people won’t abuse it. wtf is that? have you really ever played an MMO?
exploiting and abusing is the main activity of a significant fraction of the MMO player base.
GW2 gave those people little to play with, that’s why it has been quiet.

in other games, and I have actually played a lot of other MMOs, what the original poster describes, happens in like 80% of the groups formed by lfg.

it was the main reason I quit WoW. I have witnessed people being threatened with real life kitten (!) and murder(!) if they did not do a speed run version of a dungeon. yes, that was the tip the iceberg, but most of my lfg experience in WoW was like that, just a bit toned down from a murder threat.

it is insane to base your whole judgement of this issue on nothing in particular.

it is a shame that Anet “kittens” the very unpleasant term relating to an unwanted sexual encounter. since this threat of some ahole to a fellow guild mate was the reason I left WoW.
she quit too and did not bother to even report the guy. she said that happens all the time.

Askleria.1430:

it is a shame that Anet “kittens” the very unpleasant term relating to an unwanted sexual encounter. since this threat of some ahole to a fellow guild mate was the reason I left WoW.
she quit too and did not bother to even report the guy. she said that happens all the time.

As sad as it is, abusive behavior is a cancer that comes with any all and online experiences and that includes MMOs. If you want to avoid it, might as well not even step a single toe on the internet.

You and your friend did the worst thing – You just left the abuser there unharmed, and potentially permitted other people to fall victim to him as well. Which is ironic because its exactly what you’re pointing out in the other guy; his lack of “attitude versus the problem”.
Also, in WoW, every player bleeds cash into the game each month – a reason why devs may be reluctant to perma ban its players and intervene where they should. But right here and now we’re talking about GW2, and we all know its business model… another reason why Anet’s devs shouldn’t turn a blind eye to this kind of situation.

As for the topic itself…
I heard that League of Legends has a pretty solid team system that blocks this kind of abusive behavior in terms of LFG and parties but I don’t play that game so I wouldn’t know. Anyone knows about it more in-depth and care to shed so light on it??

To my mind the WoW LFG tool became toxic when it became cross-server, while it was limited to one’s own server there was actually something of a community built up, where reputations were gained or lost based on one’s behaviour in a group. With the cross-server tool the numbers involved became so large that many seemed not to care about building a reputation as the consequences for being a “kitten” were too dilute.

( Sorry, live in Norway so ti was early morning when I made my post…so was getting some more sleep. Nice to finally see a conversation going here. ^^ )

@ WhiteAndMilky: When using the LFG tool, there really isn’t something ‘to’ go by on what a person’s standards would be. We’re getting people at random to do a dungeon with. If there was something like this ( like a person looking for a certain gear score or whatever ) then maybe that would help some of those more picky…? I’m not one to worry about that myself. If someone is of level and doesn’t have good gear, I don’t worry. We’re in an instance to get gear and to experience these instances. I don’t mind wiping if people are learning from it. Learn as a group, you may learn something you can take with you when the instance is over.

@ SnoodBeAR: Someone having a bad connection I can understand completely. ..even having an emergency come up. Those I don’t have a problem with. But I’ve seen far too many people just drop group soon as they made the rounds to look at gear/looked to see if the healer was over geared ( …you know, because a healer can’t be any good at something unless they already are too good for the instance ). Though GW2 doesn’t have the gaming holy trinity, this will bring up something new to have to think about.

@ Sollith: This is something that has been far too rare. Usually it was a guild run ( minus me and maybe one other ) that would behave this way. But most times it was just “that one guy/gal” that just won’t do anything the group asks and always does something to kitten the group off.

@Askleria: This is something we’re just going to have to find out. I’m not going to brand Anet with “this is how you’re thinking this though I haven’t seen you explain your thoughts on it yet” kind of thing. I’d like to wait and see…but I wanted to at least make this thread in hopes it will be seen ( not counting on an answer directly from them ). …because I know I and others have gone through the problems that cropped up when using the LFG tool. Though in idea, LFG is amazing. Not having to sit around in one place and ask for people to join for a certain instance. I remember having to do that in WoW until the LFG tool.

And you’re right. GW2 has given very little for those kinds of rude folk to work with. I want to hope that they will continue to think about how to handle this/at least learn from mistakes that will be made when LFG comes out. I left WoW ( at least taking a very large, extended break from it ) because I just couldn’t stand mostly having bad experiences in LFG. Always “that one guy/gal” that made things miserable but even the idea of kicking someone wasn’t always the best because you didn’t want to sit and wait for another tank or healer ( DPS was just so dang easy to get but there were still those “problem children”).

We did report a lot of people, though. When I had to deal with that unwanted behavior…I made sure to report them and block them so I wouldn’t have to group with them again. The sexual harassment didn’t happen often for me, thankfully. But most jerks that are just unbearable did get the same treatment. Reported and blocked.

@Ivory Owl: I’ve heard a lot of good things about League of Legends having the Tribunal but one of the things ‘negative’ that I’ve heard is that people are not banned, and if so, it’s mainly temporary. Some folks have bragged about just making another account to play because they had a temp ban on their main. I don’t know much more than that since it’s the only thing I’ve found when hearing others talk about it.

@binidj: Absolutely. When it was just for your server, not too many people are going to make an kitten of themselves because they will get blacklisted by others on the realm. There will be some that would make callouts on the chat channels for any bad experiences with a player. So other folks would be aware of playing with that person and act accordingly.

When LFG came with cross-server, it became much harder to do that. Anyone and everyone that wanted to be a jerk, did. They could get away with it because the pool of players to choose from were much wider. They’d eat those penalties too because they were so small so they could do it all again until they found what they wanted in a group. Though there’s also the players with the “FYGM” behavior. Get the drop they want, they leave group and you have to sit around and wait for another player to fill the space again.

Mairenaianelle.3849:

@Ivory Owl: I’ve heard a lot of good things about League of Legends having the Tribunal but one of the things ‘negative’ that I’ve heard is that people are not banned, and if so, it’s mainly temporary. Some folks have bragged about just making another account to play because they had a temp ban on their main. I don’t know much more than that since it’s the only thing I’ve found when hearing others talk about it.

That works with a game like LoL because its free and you can create any number of accounts as long as you have a surplus of emails. But in GW2, your account is connected to your game so unless you keep buying several GW2 boxes with new and working serial keys, you’re stuck with your only account. I’m pretty sure even a small temporary ban will be enough to annoy them or at least prevent some people of doing it. The more often they do it, the more time they will remained banned. Could start with a simple 6 hour ban and end up with whole 3 days.

My major problem with it however, are the innocent ones that are trying to be reasonable and serious about their game and a bunch of trolls / haters end up abusing this system to ban him / her. People who abuse the system for no apparent reason should also get punished for it.

My suggestions:

- People seem to underestimate the power of screenshots. We have a button for these cases and even reporting bugs in game itself allows this. I’ve blocked people before but I never reported anyone other than for mail spam so I don’t know if this includes a screenie option as well. You see the chat starting to derail down the tracks, you press that screenshot button even before you report them. Proof already in hand is a must even if things eventually straighten themselves – Better safe than sorry.

- Include a log for each party that explicitly tells when X party was created, X player joined / left and a timer or clock next to each occurrence. ( This is more a suggestion for ANet. )

In an MMORPG, it’s a given that PUG groups can go wrong, including the examples you provided and more. However, people such as myself who do PUGs do so knowing full well that there’s a risk that it will not go well. It’s a risk we come to terms with.

An LFG tool such as WoW’s makes it a bit more convenient for bads to grief, yes. But it also provides a lot more convenience to honest PUGgers such as myself who aren’t complete pricks.

Really, the only way you can be actually 100% sure your dungeon run won’t go badly is if you don’t PUG at all, and instead roll with a premade group, and LFG tools don’t erase one’s ability to do exactly that.

The pros outweigh the cons here. An LFG system would really only help this game.

people should learn to add to their friend’s list players that play well , because there is a function in friends list where someone can give nicknames .

add people who knows well or play good in your friends list and play with them or just choose their party when you see them in lfg tool .

also don’t be afraid for wipes . wipes is the normal procedure for someone to learn his character and the game and also the hard try is more enjoyable than the play with guides …..

go back to your rpg / mmo roots guys and remember ….

There’s been an LFG tool for months, and I’ve used it with no problems. I’m glad there’s finally an LFG tool being added ingame so I don’t have to continuously alt+tab out of my game to check or update my party.

I read there’s some sort of report option in case someone is being an kitten I could be wrong, but it would be great if it’s true.

At the very least I’m happy it’s a party tool and not a dungeon finder.

I see some talk about just playing with friends…premade groups…so I’ll just challenge that with this link.

@ IvoryOwl: You have something there, actually. It would be a lot harder for someone to continue to make accounts for GW2 to keep playing if they get in trouble. LoL, on the other hand, it just takes a few clicks and you’re back in the game with another account.

There is something that I’ve read in a few cases for GW2 where supposedly Anet wasn’t or doesn’t pay attention to why someone was flagged for something and didn’t look into why and if it were a real case and so people were banned for no reason. …but then again, we never know the full story of these things and those people could very well have been in the wrong and are trying to deny it.

@ DusK: I understand that as well. I know darn well that not all groups are going to go well. That isn’t quite the point, though. Having a hard time in an instance with a group isn’t the same as someone that willingly griefs others to make the experience stressing. We’ve all had bad runs and had to eventually drop out of some or people had decided they didn’t add enough to the table and so offered to leave group and hope for the best for those that stayed. Those are fine and understandable. The griefers are what really worries me in this.

@ Reborn: Then that link at the top of my post here is for you to look at. Just because you have a good run with some people doesn’t mean you all ‘want’ to be around one another 24/7 when it comes to instance runs. You shouldn’t have to make lists of people because griefers want to be rude. Nobody should have to stay in a shell because someone else doesn’t know what manners are or how to use them just because they’re online and possibly won’t see them again.

As I’ve said in this thread already, it’s not the wipe that I, personally, am afraid of. It’s the people that have no patience and want to make those tough times tougher because they aren’t happy. I’m fully willing to wait things out and work through an instance even when the group is less than ideal. I’m sure there are many that are the same way.

@ Milennin: I didn’t know there was an offsite thing for that. Huh. Good to know they’re adding it in-game now, though.

@ Retsuko: I didn’t see it in the link I provided…so either I glanced over it somehow or you found it somewhere else. Do you have the source? That would be lovely but I hope it’ll be something more in depth maybe similar but better than what WoW has for kicking people ( which is stating a reason why a person should be kicked ).

You know what’s going to happen?
Nothing. People will dislike the idea of being paired up with randoms with no effective selection criteria SO they’ll use online sites for it – like we have been doing these past months.

I’d like to see some separators put in the new LFG tool.
Example : If i want to start a group I should be able to set some basic criteria ( number of achievement points, full exotic gear, class, level, etc). That’s just common sense.
Give me a chance to play with the people I want to.
Unless we get that I imagine most decent players will stay away from the new tool.

Harper.4173:

I’d like to see some separators put in the new LFG tool.
Example : If i want to start a group I should be able to set some basic criteria ( number of achievement points, full exotic gear, class, level, etc). That’s just common sense.
Give me a chance to play with the people I want to.
Unless we get that I imagine most decent players will stay away from the new tool.

I think everyone wants successful runs, but I find it a bit egotistical to consider ourselves “so good” that other people bellow our level are not even worth our time. How do I even know you’re not just a leecher trying to sneak into a group that will do everything for you? A good player needs first and foremost, a good attitude.

I would be willing to take newbies with me and teach them a thing or two as we go, its how we players get better and forge friendships, not mounting walls and separating the good from the bad. This kind of attitude is one of the things that is wrong with the MMO community, be it PvP, PvE or even RP, its like a cancer. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be surrounded by people you know and like but don’t close the door either.

PS: How the heck would the new tool even be able to tell what kind of gear is that person wearing? We don’t even have a “preview player” option in-game!
We know it will allow us to search for people that are looking to do specific activities like dungeons and fractals, WvWvW and Living World. There’s not much more to it but if you want, read the site bellow.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tequatl_Rising

@IvoryOwl: I upvoted that post. Thank you. Thank you so much. Better than I would’ve been able to put it so I kept from answering Harper.

OP’s comments don’t really make sense, an lfg system already exists. If somebody is being toxic in your group kick them. etc.

@ Player Character: In this video at 3:35 in, you’ll see from the livestream Anet had. It’s been sped up by this person while he talks a bit about it.

I found this a few minutes ago. Had tried to watch the livestream but while I wanted to see what people had to say about it, I saw a lot of spam going on to a point chat wasn’t worth watching. …but I didn’t want to sit through a whole livestream just to wait for certain things to be shown.

Harper.4173:

You know what’s going to happen?
Nothing. People will dislike the idea of being paired up with randoms with no effective selection criteria SO they’ll use online sites for it – like we have been doing these past months.

I’d like to see some separators put in the new LFG tool.
Example : If i want to start a group I should be able to set some basic criteria ( number of achievement points, full exotic gear, class, level, etc). That’s just common sense.
Give me a chance to play with the people I want to.
Unless we get that I imagine most decent players will stay away from the new tool.

I’m pretty sure that it was said during the live stream that, just like it is with gw2lfg, the new tool will let you write a line when looking for people/groups. Just say “LF warrior 80 full berserker Exotic/Ascended, experienced only, with 9k+ APs” or whatever you want your playmates to be/have.
I see it as a gw2lfg inside the game. It is practical.

Mairenaianelle.3849:

@ Player Character: In this video at 3:35 in, you’ll see from the livestream Anet had. It’s been sped up by this person while he talks a bit about it.

Well spotted! Thank you for finding this, I’m sure it will clear away some of the worries circling around. Its good to see that ANet tried to make it as in-depth as possible without being too complicated. I look forward to use this tool, sure beats going AFK to use a website.

Gabby.3205:

Harper.4173:

You know what’s going to happen?
Nothing. People will dislike the idea of being paired up with randoms with no effective selection criteria SO they’ll use online sites for it – like we have been doing these past months.

I’d like to see some separators put in the new LFG tool.
Example : If i want to start a group I should be able to set some basic criteria ( number of achievement points, full exotic gear, class, level, etc). That’s just common sense.
Give me a chance to play with the people I want to.
Unless we get that I imagine most decent players will stay away from the new tool.

I’m pretty sure that it was said during the live stream that, just like it is with gw2lfg, the new tool will let you write a line when looking for people/groups. Just say “LF warrior 80 full berserker Exotic/Ascended, experienced only, with 9k+ APs” or whatever you want your playmates to be/have.
I see it as a gw2lfg inside the game. It is practical.

From what I understand if I kick a player the group get penalized. I’m looking forward to the moment I want a level 80 zerker warrior in my party and get a tanky enginner.

About my attitude – I’ve gotten past the point where I’m willing to just go with whomever I get in a run. I’ve helped out newbies here and there but at the end of the day this game is too much oriented towards profit for me to be able to run at a slower pace and feel comfortable.
If they can’t keep up – I’m not about to stop. I can slow down but rarely.

IvoryOwl.3275:

A good player needs first and foremost, a good attitude.

Couldn’t agree more. This is the attitude I play by and have done throughout my history with GW1 and GW2. I would take, as a rank 3-5, unranked players with me in teams in the Heroes’ Ascent. Through their ability to listen and learn, we were able to make it to halls multiple times, and many of those I took gained their rank 3 bambi under my command.

In GW2, I’m much the same way. I’ll take an average but friendly player any day of the week over an abusive, elitest “pro”.