Guild Wars 2

Hi
I was considering to put this in the WvW-subforum, but after all it is a general suggestion.

So … Thieves … generally i have no problem to fight them neither on ranger nor on engineer. The problem is: when they are low on hp and realize they can not win, they just use stealth to run away.
The reward for every victorious fight is the final kill for the better player. Thieves are the big exception, because even if they can’t win, they always can escape.

I see three solutions to solve this problem.
1) completely disable stealth when healthpoints are under 50/25/10(?)%
2) increase the cd time of ALL stealth skills, so a thief has to use them wisely, not just spam every few seconds, or …

3) give other classes some kind of reveal-spell like "reveals all hidden enemies for 6 sec/ range 600/ cd 1 min)

Stealth should still give a starcraft-like shimmer. The current implementation has been broken for 8 years, ever since WoW was released.

have to say no to 1-2 at the very least, just because what ever changes they make for PvP, also effects PvE

Besides, if someone escapes because they are about to die, that should be a reward as well, cause you made them run away.

I agree with the shimmer effect for stealth. I play a main Thief and I think this would be awesome. Perhaps give one or two seconds of pure stealth and have the last one or two or X seconds be a shimmer effect. The only reason I give one to two seconds of complete stealth is to give the Thief some advantage to those who can spot the glimmer effect with ease.

Halo CE did camo really well where if you had a trained eye to see the distortion, you can find the cloaked enemy.

The only way a thief can run away is trough Shadow Refuge which requires to stay in the circle (which is very clearly visible for everyone) for like 3 seconds. If you can’t finish off the thief by then you either suck at PvP or you’re just very unlucky but I doubht that. So please stop kittening about the stealth

No no and no.

Stealth is one of the main mechanics in thief gameplay. It’s not as if its wow rogue territory of perma stealth. What next ban mesmer clones cause it let’s mesmers run away?

As in GW1, I’m sure they could solve here too that skills behave differently in PvE than in PvP.

eisberg.2379:

have to say no to 1-2 at the very least, just because what ever changes they make for PvP, also effects PvE

Besides, if someone escapes because they are about to die, that should be a reward as well, cause you made them run away.

pitrelli.5361:

No no and no.

Stealth is one of the main mechanics in thief gameplay. It’s not as if its wow rogue territory of perma stealth. What next ban mesmer clones cause it let’s mesmers run away?

This.

I’ve played a few MMO’s where the stealth class frustrates players who want a straight up fight, who then complain about the class. Enough squeaky wheels get grease and the class is nerfed…and then nerfed again. Cooldowns get lengthened, burst damage gets weakened, etc.

Finally, the class is broken and then those players find a new class to complain about.

A good example of this was the Witch Elf in Warhammer.

I’m not discounting the fact that many classes, in their own way, are over-powered at the start of a game, and I appreciate that balancing classes is never a walk in the park.
But unless there are solid statistics to back up claims of being over-powered then those claims must be taken with a grain of salt.

My point is that, just because a person has difficulty fighting a particular class, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s over-powered.

That’s my metaphor-laden opinion.

BoyLer.9732:

As in GW1, I’m sure they could solve here too that skills behave differently in PvE than in PvP.

eisberg.2379:

have to say no to 1-2 at the very least, just because what ever changes they make for PvP, also effects PvE

Besides, if someone escapes because they are about to die, that should be a reward as well, cause you made them run away.

They built GW1 with that idea. But for some reason they didn’t build GW2 with that, and have to assume at this time that it will never be.

So I have to put in my opinion on stuff that are based around balancing PvP but have a negative effect on PvE.

Neksis Syxx.6983:

My point is that, just because a person has difficulty fighting a particular class, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s over-powered.

I don’t think that thieves are overpowered in combat, but noone can deny, that they are the best escapists in GW2. Each class can be caught. Thieves can not.

I don’t want PvE players to be nerfed. Hell no. But i don’t think that neverending stealth-spamming when things get worse is fair in pvp.

Anyway – i just read in another thread, that thieves are going to be nerfed with the 26-update, so let’s wait and see, time will tell.

No way nerfing stealth would be fair in anyway shape or form stealth is the thief’s only true weapon of survival or in short without stealth thieves would just become immediate giant targets for every player.

Also the main reason thieves run away when they are about to die is cause A. It’s usually the most strategic thing to do (no matter what class you are) and B. Cause if downed the thief is basically dead as a door nail without help to get back up because unlike every other class in the game thieves only have 3 functional/useful downed skills and one crap #3 that mise well be a shout that says “Kill me I’m a thief pretending to use stealth.” and on top of that only one of said skills can even do damage or be used to attack with ensuring that once down unless there is a character very close to death within attack range the thief is guaranteed to go down without assistance to get up unless completely left alone in combat (which is extremely unlikely) and this applies to PvE and doubly so in PvP.

So yeah stealthing before you die and running away is pretty much the only option if you wish to survive. Also there is the simple fact that this is exactly what the thief class is built for/role is hit and run tactics and if a thief is doing so then he’s simply doing his/her job.

Mournsorrow.5271:

So yeah stealthing before you die and running away is pretty much the only option if you wish to survive. Also there is the simple fact that this is exactly what the thief class is built for/role is hit and run tactics and if a thief is doing so then he’s simply doing his/her job.

You’re basically right with everything. All classes try to run away in some situations and you can chase them or not, it’s up to you. Sometimes they have luck. Sometimes not. But when the thief is smart, he stealths, hides somewhere and you never see him again. That’s the difference.
Ok. I got used to it. I can live with that. But i still say, that other classes need some kind of short-time reveal spell with long cd. Just to have a chance to finish the fight like it should be done.
Ofc it’s just my opinion. Belive me or not, but i understand why all thieves will disagree :-)

ok, fine. I’m down with an anti-stealth tool, but under some stipulations:

I can hit a button to kill all enemy necro minions. man I hate fighting those.
I can hit a button to prevent a mesmer from shattering clones. man those hurt.
I can hit a button to remove a ranger’s pet. why does he get two characters to my one? this fight is unfair!
I can hit a button to ….. seeing the problem here yet?

roachsrealm.9284:

….. seeing the problem here yet?

Bad comparison. You’re talking about fighting, i’m talking about being able to run away.

When i meet a warrior or guardian and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a necro, mesmer or ele and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a ranger or engi etc etc.
But:
When i meet a thief and i am better – he probably will use stealth and … i won’t get the kill.
Seeing the problem here?

Mournsorrow.5271:

No way nerfing stealth would be fair in anyway shape or form stealth is the thief’s only true weapon of survival or in short without stealth thieves would just become immediate giant targets for every player.

Also the main reason thieves run away when they are about to die is cause A. It’s usually the most strategic thing to do (no matter what class you are) and B. Cause if downed the thief is basically dead as a door nail without help to get back up because unlike every other class in the game thieves only have 3 functional/useful downed skills and one crap #3 that mise well be a shout that says “Kill me I’m a thief pretending to use stealth.” and on top of that only one of said skills can even do damage or be used to attack with ensuring that once down unless there is a character very close to death within attack range the thief is guaranteed to go down without assistance to get up unless completely left alone in combat (which is extremely unlikely) and this applies to PvE and doubly so in PvP.

So yeah stealthing before you die and running away is pretty much the only option if you wish to survive. Also there is the simple fact that this is exactly what the thief class is built for/role is hit and run tactics and if a thief is doing so then he’s simply doing his/her job.

You don’t know how to play a thief do you? Thieves DO NOT NEED STEALTH. Build to never touch stealth and you would be surprised how much punishment a thief can take and how pathetic any thief that relies on stealth really is. I’ve ran a p/p and sb build in spvp, pve, dungeouns, and wvw just fine…never used a single stealth skill just to prove that it isn’t needed, stealth is a crutch for those lacking the skill to play a class that forces a fair fight (honestly mesmers aren’t hard to kill people, every last mesmer player gives themselves away constantly).

A shimmer/outline should definately be forced on the thief. The thief is not a mage, they have no special skills, and honestly…the entire idea of being able to use a stealth skill when I am in your face hacking your limbs off is rediculous in and of itself.

Blankverse.4927:

roachsrealm.9284:

….. seeing the problem here yet?

Bad comparison. You’re talking about fighting, i’m talking about being able to run away.

When i meet a warrior or guardian and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a necro, mesmer or ele and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a ranger or engi etc etc.
But:
When i meet a thief and i am better – he probably will use stealth and … i won’t get the kill.
Seeing the problem here?

Except if there that low health its not that hard to finish them off even if they are stealthed unless you totally forget where they where the moment they go invisible and have no environmental awareness.

Runiir.6425:

A shimmer/outline should definately be forced on the thief. The thief is not a mage, they have no special skills, and honestly…the entire idea of being able to use a stealth skill when I am in your face hacking your limbs off is rediculous in and of itself.

Then nerf the mesmer stealth and have a big icon above Mesmer clones showing that they are not the real Mesmer, too. Thieves and Mesmers both use the Denial branch of Bloodstone magic, tapping in to the same aspects of illusion to achieve different goals, Mesmers creating clones and phantasms in enemy cognitive processes to confuse them in a duelist manner and Thieves just removing themselves from an opponent’s vision altogether for the sneak attack approach. It is NOT stealth as in camouflage or being sneaky – it is actual magical manipulation of enemy perception. Thieves ARE mages, almost exactly like Mesmers, using the same magic for deception and displacement (shadowstepping). Perhaps you should do a little more research.

More on-topic, Thieves are DESIGNED to be the slipperiest combatants, the hardest to pin down and catch. Elementalists have better sustained mobility, but apart from that, if you’re having a hard time catching them, working purely as intended. Points 1 and 2 are completely ludricrous and Point 3 is a slippery slope – give me a skill that prevents Adrenaline skill usage, or cancels Death Shroud, or disables the use of illusions, the list goes on. If I wanted to play rock/paper/scissors rubbish like that, I’d play rock/paper/scissors.

Also, who said that killing an enemy outright is the only way to show you won? Your opponent is running away. Guess what that means? You won in the smaller context of your 1v1 bout, and absolutely NOTHING more. Nothing in this game is all about kills. There is no Team Deathmatch or Free-For-All mode (yet). Both WvW and sPvP have central objectives that in NO way have a specific kill quota. Killing your enemies and putting them out of commission helps the overall objective, but so does forcing them to retreat. Just killing someone is not the end goal of these modes. Even if the end goal WAS to get kills for either team, your bout with that Thief put him in a position where he’s wasting time and not getting kills elsewhere. He has failed to prey on you, and now he’s put pressure on the rest of his team to step up their game temporarily while he finds another target that he can take on. Who gives a crap if you’re the better player? If you’re so great, then go join the bigger fights in WvW to do some more good or keep on watch for other attackers on point in sPvP and stop chasing them down pointlessly and compromising your point capture/defence.

Blankverse.4927:

roachsrealm.9284:

….. seeing the problem here yet?

Bad comparison. You’re talking about fighting, i’m talking about being able to run away.

When i meet a warrior or guardian and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a necro, mesmer or ele and i am better – i get the kill.
When i meet a ranger or engi etc etc.
But:
When i meet a thief and i am better – he probably will use stealth and … i won’t get the kill.
Seeing the problem here?

Good point. Hmm..
Save an interrupt? Save a knockdown? Stun him somehow? In hardcore PvP areas I am never without a way to break stun, apply stun, and remove conditions. That’s what utilities are for. I’ve never had problems ultimately taking out a thief with the right build. They normally get one more shot at escape than other classes, but that’s about it. Use a gap closer or leave them alone.

An enemy running away from you is an enemy not hurting you. If this is just about round points, stop crying and fight something else.

Are you for real? stealth for 3 secs then when can even go back in stealth until the debuff is off, so now you need to reveal us? that would be quite broken and im certain more people would stop playing them because of something like that.

Auesis, if I want my badges of honor, I need that thief dead. What was that about nothing being about deaths?

Runiir.6425:

Auesis, if I want my badges of honor, I need that thief dead. What was that about nothing being about deaths?

I wasn’t aware that WvW was the Thief Club in disguise, and you weren’t invited.

No, you do not NEED that Thief dead. You’re confusing NEED with WANT. You need ANYONE dead, or you need to do the puzzles a few times, or you need to play the objectives (keep/tower leaders also drop Badges). Go stand on top of a keep while in defence and lob a bunch of AoE down at the gate, and within 30 seconds you have more badges than you would have had by trying to kill one Thief who you obviously were not prepared enough to pin down.

Thieves are not the exclusive badge hoarders that you have to hunt down en masse. Get over yourself.

Auesis.7301:

Runiir.6425:

Auesis, if I want my badges of honor, I need that thief dead. What was that about nothing being about deaths?

Thieves are not the exclusive badge hoarders that you have to hunt down en masse. Get over yourself.

Says the thief who runs away like a scared lil girl instead of staying and fighting.

However the update on the 26th will ruin many thieve’s ability to stealth away, being that nigh every thief will burn their stealths in the fight itself and not have a stealth on hand to run with. It might just finally balance their stealthing. Yes it affects mesmers as well.

Runiir.6425:

Auesis.7301:

Runiir.6425:

Auesis, if I want my badges of honor, I need that thief dead. What was that about nothing being about deaths?

Thieves are not the exclusive badge hoarders that you have to hunt down en masse. Get over yourself.

Says the thief who runs away like a scared lil girl instead of staying and fighting.

However the update on the 26th will ruin many thieve’s ability to stealth away, being that nigh every thief will burn their stealths in the fight itself and not have a stealth on hand to run with. It might just finally balance their stealthing. Yes it affects mesmers as well.

Lol. So rather than making an actual argument in response, you result to ad hominem attack. I gave up on logic and reason in this forum a long time ago, I don’t even know why I expect decent answers anymore. For the record, I have 6 level 80s, all seasoned and experienced in WvW and sPvP environments. The Thief I do play is an S/D setup that is designed for staying power.

You’re hilarious. Any competent Thief has no problem with mandatory Revealed. “Burning” stealths? You obviously have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Thieves will still have all of their stealths on-hand. They’ll just appear briefly whether they hit you or not. If the Thief has even a partial brain stem, they can deal with that, considering how mobile the profession is. In fact, 90% of encounters have Revealed up almost every single time the Thief exits stealth, so it will make absolutely no difference to any Thief above the age of 4.

I advise you give up your ramblings before you just shout COWARD! WAAH LET ME KILL YOU! over and over and lower the IQ of everyone else in the thread by at least 10 points.

Auesis.7301:

Runiir.6425:

Auesis.7301:

Runiir.6425:

Auesis, if I want my badges of honor, I need that thief dead. What was that about nothing being about deaths?

Thieves are not the exclusive badge hoarders that you have to hunt down en masse. Get over yourself.

Says the thief who runs away like a scared lil girl instead of staying and fighting.

However the update on the 26th will ruin many thieve’s ability to stealth away, being that nigh every thief will burn their stealths in the fight itself and not have a stealth on hand to run with. It might just finally balance their stealthing. Yes it affects mesmers as well.

Lol. So rather than making an actual argument in response, you result to ad hominem attack. I gave up on logic and reason in this forum a long time ago, I don’t even know why I expect decent answers anymore. For the record, I have 6 level 80s, all seasoned and experienced in WvW and sPvP environments. The Thief I do play is an S/D setup that is designed for staying power.

You’re hilarious. Any competent Thief has no problem with mandatory Revealed. “Burning” stealths? You obviously have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Thieves will still have all of their stealths on-hand. They’ll just appear briefly whether they hit you or not. If the Thief has even a partial brain stem, they can deal with that, considering how mobile the profession is. In fact, 90% of encounters have Revealed up almost every single time the Thief exits stealth, so it will make absolutely no difference to any Thief above the age of 4.

I advise you give up your ramblings before you just shout COWARD! WAAH LET ME KILL YOU! over and over and lower the IQ of everyone else in the thread by at least 10 points.

Whats Ironic about this is that you blast a guy for getting personal..then immediately get personal lol. This game is the first I have ever seen where a DoT on a stealthed target does not reveal that target on its next tick, or after a certain amount of time (such at Shadow’s in Sw:ToR who use their combat stealth can get like 4-5 secs of real stealth then a DoT insta reveals). That would be a great suggestion. But that patch in WvW concerning culling will fix a lot. It was not originally intended where a thief could stealth, not cull for 2 seconds, then immediately stealth after. That being fixed should greatly reduce things. I think the issue here is not that the stealth gives thieves a greater advantage than any class in the fight during the fight but when the thief decides to just bail. If a thief decides to stealth when he’s at 2%, he can just vanish, compared to other classes where even if a Mesmer teleports out you can still see the target. A group I was with in a tower the other day had to spend about 5 minutes killing one thief only because as soon as he destealthed and culled, he was already stealthed again due to the culling issues in WvW. But again, that will be fixed by the next update. So before you go off on a high horse saying you’re the only one being logical, try to keep an open mind, if you disagree, say you disagree, but don’t say that people have no brains or are morons or w/e, cause that’s not debating…well..unless you’re a US Politician, in which case…please get off Guild Wars 2 and do your job for once

Auesis.7301:

Runiir.6425:

Auesis.7301:

Runiir.6425:

Auesis, if I want my badges of honor, I need that thief dead. What was that about nothing being about deaths?

Thieves are not the exclusive badge hoarders that you have to hunt down en masse. Get over yourself.

Says the thief who runs away like a scared lil girl instead of staying and fighting.

However the update on the 26th will ruin many thieve’s ability to stealth away, being that nigh every thief will burn their stealths in the fight itself and not have a stealth on hand to run with. It might just finally balance their stealthing. Yes it affects mesmers as well.

Lol. So rather than making an actual argument in response, you result to ad hominem attack. I gave up on logic and reason in this forum a long time ago, I don’t even know why I expect decent answers anymore. For the record, I have 6 level 80s, all seasoned and experienced in WvW and sPvP environments. The Thief I do play is an S/D setup that is designed for staying power.

You’re hilarious. Any competent Thief has no problem with mandatory Revealed. “Burning” stealths? You obviously have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about. Thieves will still have all of their stealths on-hand. They’ll just appear briefly whether they hit you or not. If the Thief has even a partial brain stem, they can deal with that, considering how mobile the profession is. In fact, 90% of encounters have Revealed up almost every single time the Thief exits stealth, so it will make absolutely no difference to any Thief above the age of 4.

I advise you give up your ramblings before you just shout COWARD! WAAH LET ME KILL YOU! over and over and lower the IQ of everyone else in the thread by at least 10 points.

I have said it before, and will say it again. Go p/p and sb and take all stealths off your bar. You will have MORE staying power than you do with stealth if you know what you are doing, and are a much larger threat. I’ve provent his over and over again in spvp and wvw. The class does not even need stealth to be good. Thus, relying upon it shows you need to handicap your opponant to win.

Your last dig is hilarious. That is known as an honorable fair fight. Other games with infinit stealth but never an in combat stealth are incredibly more balanced as the rogue/thief now has to stay in the fight till the bitter end, win or lose they are locked in the death spiral like everyone else. This incarnation of thief is pathetic, every last one of them clings to this stealth dance and fights against event he slightest touch against it. You and those like you make IQ seem like a rare trait. Your reaction to being called a coward is hilarious I might add, quite typical for those with no leg to stand on.

The current revealed is pointless, on 26th revealed turns into this thing where chainign stealths will be impossible, if you restealth a second before the previous one ends, your still coming out of stealth whent hat first one ends and the second one on CD gaining you no benefit, locked out of stealth skills for far longer. For someone that is advocating thieves do you know what is coming your way? THAT is what I was talking about with the lack of stealth to flee. In stealth for 3 seconds (4 if traited) and locked out of all stealth for 5-6 seconds last I dug up. Would appear they are trying to kill pure stealth builds to me.

Runiir.6425:

Mournsorrow.5271:

No way nerfing stealth would be fair in anyway shape or form stealth is the thief’s only true weapon of survival or in short without stealth thieves would just become immediate giant targets for every player.

Also the main reason thieves run away when they are about to die is cause A. It’s usually the most strategic thing to do (no matter what class you are) and B. Cause if downed the thief is basically dead as a door nail without help to get back up because unlike every other class in the game thieves only have 3 functional/useful downed skills and one crap #3 that mise well be a shout that says “Kill me I’m a thief pretending to use stealth.” and on top of that only one of said skills can even do damage or be used to attack with ensuring that once down unless there is a character very close to death within attack range the thief is guaranteed to go down without assistance to get up unless completely left alone in combat (which is extremely unlikely) and this applies to PvE and doubly so in PvP.

So yeah stealthing before you die and running away is pretty much the only option if you wish to survive. Also there is the simple fact that this is exactly what the thief class is built for/role is hit and run tactics and if a thief is doing so then he’s simply doing his/her job.

You don’t know how to play a thief do you? Thieves DO NOT NEED STEALTH. Build to never touch stealth and you would be surprised how much punishment a thief can take and how pathetic any thief that relies on stealth really is. I’ve ran a p/p and sb build in spvp, pve, dungeouns, and wvw just fine…never used a single stealth skill just to prove that it isn’t needed, stealth is a crutch for those lacking the skill to play a class that forces a fair fight (honestly mesmers aren’t hard to kill people, every last mesmer player gives themselves away constantly).

A shimmer/outline should definately be forced on the thief. The thief is not a mage, they have no special skills, and honestly…the entire idea of being able to use a stealth skill when I am in your face hacking your limbs off is rediculous in and of itself.

Very true, most thieves are lazy and just wanna backstab and then spend the rest of their initiative on heartseeker for that guaranteed kill, so they feel like a pro player.
I tried D/D, but it’s so boring OP i switched to P/D. Played last night and still only died 3 times, all 3 times because i didnt see the zerg coming and got immobilized. 90% of the time you kill ppl and if for some reason it goes wrong you can go “pooof” and just run away.

There is no penalty for making mistakes. I personally look forward to the changes coming to the thief, finally it takes a bit of thinking and planning to play it properly, and indeed, stealth is not needed for a thief if you plan ahead, keep your eyes open and use good positioning.