Guild Wars 2

the culling doenst affect the supply camp thing that much cause the most skilled thiefs can time c/d to start animation befor stealth wears off then hit so close to appearing that the human cant comprehend the thief popping let alone a server/client
so dont expect fixing culling to stop the best thiefs you have to make use of counters that are already ingame

Zilm.8459:

Your right Cifu. I’ve dusted mydelf a dozen times now. And I studied what happened. A stealth thief jumped out of stealth, hit me really hard, stealthed, hit me again while stealthed and put me down, then finished me while stealthed.

He then held off 10-15 people for 3-4 minuted from capping a supply point then ran off when he was finally flushed out.

The stealth build that is taking advantage of the game engine rendering issues has nothing to with it…at all. The alpha gamers have taught the rest of us we need to “L2P”.

Thanks for the heads up man.

My pleasure.

Seriously, i admit depending on your class level and gear and whats going on you maybe a victim of a thiefs ability to kill you fast. True and i wont argue that point. My rebuttal is based on the game mechanics what else can a thief do, besides run away really really well? Do you think that a thief should deal subpar single target dps not kill a target? What benifit is there then? We dont go around one rounding ppl as we please. We have cool downs. We sacrafice everything in order to do what we do.

Again a thief who is able to stick around a point and not allow it to be “capped” is either 1 a victim just like you who has to deal with the unfixed cullin issue, or a luck thief who is not being properly targeted. I think im ok as a thief and i have never been able to do this nor know of a thief that has other than reading forum posts and seeing a single video where it seemed like everyone was just standing there afk.

My l2p coment was just to make fun but in all seriousness some ppl are just easy targets they stand there and just take it! Lately it seems like people are adjusting and i can say that one rounding any one these days is becoming increasingly difficult.

Niim.9260:

I cant wait for thieves to be fixed so I can find out what everyone will QQ about next.

My money is on mesmers. Maybe the d/d ele, kill shot warrior, maybe some good old fashion 100b QQ, it could be anything! The suspense is almost unbearable!

ps. I dont think any of the above are issues

I agree although I get where they are coming from. The rendering issues really do need fixed, as that is clearly a bug.

rhonyn.6810:

no comment on thief balance per se, other than to say class mechanic issue or game mechanic issues shouldn’t be viewed differently imo. Class mechanics should account for game engine performance and limitations in all game play scenarios that exist.

tldr: if culling is crappy, design stealth mechanics knowing that.

Culling isn’t crappy, their current implementation of Umbra 3 Occlusion (commonly called culling for GW2) into their game engine has a few issues which need to be ironed out. These types of fixes sometimes aren’t as easy as changing a couple numbers. Sometimes these may take months for the coders who know how this works to resolve.

The instantaneous appearance of a character is what causes it to appear later while the Umbra 3 process determines if it should be seen and queries the servers for it (look up Umbra Occlusion on wiki for more info). That is also why you see it with Portals. The same can occur if someone jumps from behind an object and runs out into the open. The only way to eliminate or reduce this issue is by removing stealth / portals. These are complete and utter class eliminating changes. If you take stealth away from the thief, it is no longer the character people signed up to play.

This leaves only one option. Fix Umbra 3 Occlusion. This unfortunately may take some time. Now, before anyone yells “oh, the thieves will defend anything” – i’m actually not sticking to playing my thief a lot. It is no the class for me. I learned a lot by leveling one to 80 and WvW / sPvP’n and now understand the class better. I do not think anything should be changed with the class. period. I have no issues with what they do and going against them.

Columba.9730:

L2p is nonsense in this case. We cannot target the enemy before we are dead, and our cc’s and heals are insufficient. Sorry. That’s a mechanical issue and a bug.

I think you might be using “we” a bit too broadly. A good thief will attempt to take you by surprise. I have gone against every class in the game i have won and lost. Everytime i lose i look at that combat log to see what happened and i try to be better. I have fought against necros who seem to have all the health in the world. I have fought against elementalists that are “tank” spec each time i come across a different class i can tell who the good ones gamers are regardless if i win or lose.

I am willing to wager that regardless of the amount of nerfs delt to the thief class, any thief worth anything will still find a way to sneak up on you and destroy you. Oh and btw im all for nerfing things like HS spam, extended stealth if there is such a thing. I woudnt even mind having our burst abilities nerfed to a respectable degree. I am used to one rounding the baddies and i am sure that no amount of nerfs is going to stop baddies from being destroyed.

My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my guild. If you have a complaint please sent it to our complaint desk at www.darkhand.com thank you and a representative will contact you shortly.

I understand your point Cifu, I don’t have an issue with the build or the stealthing. It is the combination of the stealthing with the game rendering issues that people are upset with.

The stealth build relies on the poor rendering of the game engine, end of story. A few people who play a thief will admit that is what is occurring.

But when a majority of thieves say L2P, it ignores the issue at hand. And at the same time you are insulting many people who are quite competent video game players.

To fix thief, you got to fix culling/rendering in general in wvw, which would be awesome.
Also then we could see (pun intended) which thief actually has skills and not only a good macro or good timing to use ingame limitations cleverly.

Glektor.2934:

Arlandino.7513:

Any word on when Thieves will be brought into line with the other classes people play in this game for WVW?

Just curious how long the rediculous imbalance is going to be allowed to persist

For a good while longer.

On that note, they have stated they fixed the culling/rendering issues for sPvP, etc., but they haven’t worked out a fix yet for WvW.

Lol culling in sPvP never had problem there they have serious probplems with the engine if they can’t handle that amount of players , to me sounds more like they can’t fix it but not willing to say it to sell more copies of the game

I am not asking for thieves to be nerfed. I want culling fixed or stealth adjusted to compensate for broken culling. once thieves attack, we deserve the opportunity to fight back. That’s only fair and balanced.

Columba.9730:

I am not asking for thieves to be nerfed. I want culling fixed or stealth adjusted to compensate for broken culling. once thieves attack, we deserve the opportunity to fight back. That’s only fair and balanced.

The culling issue aside, if you are a Ranger then you have exactly 0 chance vs a Thief because you are playing the worst profession in the game. Other classes have counters to the openers but you guys are just hosed. This will hopefully all change with today’s patch and Rangers will be as much of a threat as everyone else.

Nethril.7413:

rhonyn.6810:

no comment on thief balance per se, other than to say class mechanic issue or game mechanic issues shouldn’t be viewed differently imo. Class mechanics should account for game engine performance and limitations in all game play scenarios that exist.

tldr: if culling is crappy, design stealth mechanics knowing that.

Culling isn’t crappy, their current implementation of Umbra 3 Occlusion (commonly called culling for GW2) into their game engine has a few issues which need to be ironed out. These types of fixes sometimes aren’t as easy as changing a couple numbers. Sometimes these may take months for the coders who know how this works to resolve.

The instantaneous appearance of a character is what causes it to appear later while the Umbra 3 process determines if it should be seen and queries the servers for it (look up Umbra Occlusion on wiki for more info). That is also why you see it with Portals. The same can occur if someone jumps from behind an object and runs out into the open. The only way to eliminate or reduce this issue is by removing stealth / portals. These are complete and utter class eliminating changes. If you take stealth away from the thief, it is no longer the character people signed up to play.

This leaves only one option. Fix Umbra 3 Occlusion. This unfortunately may take some time. Now, before anyone yells “oh, the thieves will defend anything” – i’m actually not sticking to playing my thief a lot. It is no the class for me. I learned a lot by leveling one to 80 and WvW / sPvP’n and now understand the class better. I do not think anything should be changed with the class. period. I have no issues with what they do and going against them.

I stick by my point. ….and it’s not in ref to thiefs only or rendering only….just the basic premise that class/game mechanics should account for game engine limitations. The premise of <insert whatever issue> isn’t an actual issue because in the future (months?) when/if they can implement a fix that may or may not work it will likely no longer be an issue….seems a bit weak. : )

Agreed rhonyn. But logic is a tough sell to some.

This same game engine issue is argued with mesmer portal bombing. The issue of the amount of people that can port aside, it’s the culling that people have a probelm with. I don’t mind dying but I would really appreciate seeing my foe(s) prior to my death, not in a downed state.

I don’t see a problem with the thief stealth build, I don’t have a problem with the mesmer portal bomb. Anet has a problem with culling. And with that said the skills should be designed around the game engines limitations.

How does that not make sense?

You can cry to ANet, or you can learn to kill a thief… CD him and he’ll run away crying. That’s like nerfing the Ranger’s shorbow speed (oh, and thanks for that one guys).

I love picking off thieves trying to hit my guys on siege equip.

You guys are gonna cry for nerfs every time one class has some type of obvious advantage, its the same in every pvp situation for all MMO’s. What you’re all really saying is have just one class and see who can press buttons the best.

FormulaX.8901:

You can cry to ANet, or you can learn to kill a thief… CD him and he’ll run away crying. That’s like nerfing the Ranger’s shorbow speed (oh, and thanks for that one guys).

I love picking off thieves trying to hit my guys on siege equip.

You guys are gonna cry for nerfs every time one class has some type of obvious advantage, its the same in every pvp situation for all MMO’s. What you’re all really saying is have just one class and see who can press buttons the best.

No. We are saying that a significant bug is giving two classes substantial advantages. Because said bug is apparently difficult to fox, we would appreciate adjustments to mechanics to ensure balance in actuality equals what it is designed to be on paper. Don’t over simplify complex issues.

Stiv.1820:

The culling issue aside, if you are a Ranger then you have exactly 0 chance vs a Thief because you are playing the worst profession in the game. Other classes have counters to the openers but you guys are just hosed. This will hopefully all change with today’s patch and Rangers will be as much of a threat as everyone else.

This is entirely not true. I have great fights with good rangers, the problem is that the vast majority of Rangers are zerging plinkers that have no concept of small group/solo pvp and panic as soon as there isnt a wall/people between them and their target. The ranger in the hands of a good player is just as challenging as any other class.

Niim.9260:

This is entirely not true. I have great fights with good rangers, the problem is that the vast majority of Rangers are zerging plinkers that have no concept of small group/solo pvp and panic as soon as there isnt a wall/people between them and their target. The ranger in the hands of a good player is just as challenging as any other class.

Thank You.

Zilm.8459:

I understand your point Cifu, I don’t have an issue with the build or the stealthing. It is the combination of the stealthing with the game rendering issues that people are upset with.

The stealth build relies on the poor rendering of the game engine, end of story. A few people who play a thief will admit that is what is occurring.

But when a majority of thieves say L2P, it ignores the issue at hand. And at the same time you are insulting many people who are quite competent video game players.

Im with you i think most stealth builds are taking advantage of a broken game machanic cause there is no perma stealth build that or atleast there shouldnt be.

As to the person speaking about rangers. I as a thief am pretty miffed at the current stage of the ranger class. I havent looked at tbe patch notes yet but it is my opinion that the ranger class should be able to be on par with the thief class in terms of dps cept that a ranger should deal out single target dps in 2 bursts. What i mean by this is lets take anperfect situation into account a thief with full glass cannon spec downs an opponent in one round. This one round is steal cd backstab and a hs or 2. If done right the victim will feel this happened in like 3-5 seconds a ranger should e able to do this in 6-10 seconds. Yeah yeah QQ but that is how a scout class is built dps hard die fast is our motto.

I have a warrior as well and i have played around with different equipment specs and have gotten to the point where i can deal almost as much burst single target dps on a single target as i can on my thief. The major difference is I am not in stealth then i do this but my health makes up for it. Whats sad is while doing this on my warrior i have had enemy players msg me saying that thieves are OP…. They dont even know how they died. Moral of this story is good players will be able to find a nitch in any class they play. They will stay away from classes that seem to be broken or subpar.

Im drunk bye

Zilm.8459:

Agreed rhonyn. But logic is a tough sell to some.

This same game engine issue is argued with mesmer portal bombing. The issue of the amount of people that can port aside, it’s the culling that people have a probelm with. I don’t mind dying but I would really appreciate seeing my foe(s) prior to my death, not in a downed state.

I don’t see a problem with the thief stealth build, I don’t have a problem with the mesmer portal bomb. Anet has a problem with culling. And with that said the skills should be designed around the game engines limitations.

How does that not make sense?

because anet failed to compensate up front, made a class with certain abilities, sold this class, and people now use this class. I’m not saying anet’s initial implementation of the thief / mesmer were good, but these are the classes people play right now. changes to fix these issues go way beyond small tweaks to the abilities, it is a complete revamp of the class.

my argument is – the class itself in it’s current form isn’t broken, the game is. short of removing stealth from thieves you will not fix the ability to take advantage of culling. therego, in order to adjust the class, you have to essentially remove that class and insert another. a thief without stealth, in guild wars terms, is an assassin – not a thief. that isn’t fair to anyone who plays and likes their thief. therefore, the solution is for anet to resolve umbra 3.

i don’t see how ^^ doesn’t make sense … ?? or is it too logical?

and for the record:
1. The current implementation of thief DOES gain an advantage because of culling in large scale battles. I don’t argue this. It does NOT gain any advantage in sPvP or small scale battles.

2. Preventing a location from capping, or, performing the cap while in stealth is wrong and should be changed. If they are stealthed, it should not prevent the bar or progress the bar.

3. I’ve never said l2p (i know none of it was directed at me, just making sure it’s known) and I never will. The closest I will ever come is by suggesting ways to overcome the issue until the time with which it is resolved. I prefer to work toward the position of finding solutions over finding reasons to complain.