Guild Wars 2

I think it would be amazing to see BS as a charging skill … press 1… hold … hold … hold … fire! The more you hold it the more initiative you will use and the more damage you will deal.
You can chose to go for “the big shot” but if you are countered you’ll be without initiative. If you want to play less risky you’ll also do less damage.

auto attacks never use initiative. Also thieves are supposed to be fast paced so any “charging” move just defeats that idea.

plus you are limited by the duration of stealth and the time it takes to position as well, sure you COULD hold the button as you get in position but that would just cause issues (you try moving quickly while holding 1 on your keyboard)

So you want to enhance a popular build to be more accessible ?
Now only skilled players can utilize it, by following your suggestion every starter could 1 hit kill a player if they get lucky and they understand that with this they have chances to kill even skilled players, but have no chances to kill someone using for example trap build.
Imo you should suggest to enhance “bad” skills / builds.

SilverWF.4789:

Where is -1 button ?

Now this is a good suggestion =)

Gytis.1637:

So you want to enhance a popular build to be more accessible ?
Now only skilled players can utilize it, by following your suggestion every starter could 1 hit kill a player if they get lucky and they understand that with this they have chances to kill even skilled players, but have no chances to kill someone using for example trap build.
Imo you should suggest to enhance “bad” skills / builds.

SilverWF.4789:

Where is -1 button ?

Now this is a good suggestion =)

Never said that you can 1shot ppl …
Now everyone can spec for high bs damage and more or less spam it. What i suggest is that if you spam it you’ll do less damage, if you charge it you can do big damage but you’ll pay initiative.
1 big shot not countered = target lose a lot of hp but thief spend initiative (less hs spam after)
1 big shot countered = thief spend initiative but target is still full.
and maybe SR (= a lot of stealth) + all ini BS = 1shot, why not ?

Gytis.1637:

So you want to enhance a popular build to be more accessible ?
Now only skilled players can utilize it, by following your suggestion every starter could 1 hit kill a player if they get lucky and they understand that with this they have chances to kill even skilled players, but have no chances to kill someone using for example trap build.
Imo you should suggest to enhance “bad” skills / builds.

SilverWF.4789:

Where is -1 button ?

Now this is a good suggestion =)

You didn’t understand him.
He wanna make it like:
BS with full hold time = old BS
BS instant = damage less then auto-attack does.
This is sick idea.

Okay so if you couldn’t 1 shot then it seems that this would only result bad for thief wouldn’t it ?

Now: you backstab someone and

1. hit – 50% hp left, you’re doing damage with other skills
2. dodge – 100% hp, doing damage with other skills.

Your suggestion: hold BS to max and :

1. hit – 50% hp left, can’t kill – run.
2. dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

Coz this "suggestion" came not from thief - this is obvious. I’m sure OP playing Elem.

Gytis.1637:

Okay so if you couldn’t 1 shot then it seems that this would only result bad for thief wouldn’t it ?

Now: you backstab someone and

1. hit – 50% hp left, you’re doing damage with other skills
2. dodge – 100% hp, doing damage with other skills.

Your suggestion: hold BS to max and :

1. hit – 50% hp left, can’t kill – run.
2. dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

Nope more something like:

hold BS to max and:
#hit – 0 to 10%hp left
#dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

hold BS to half and:
#hit – 30 to 40% hp left, half ini for other skills
#dodge – 100% hp, lost half initiative – do something.

spam BS and:
#hit 60-70% hp left, full ini …

it will be more about skill and good/bad choices… something like risk/reward

Daendur.2357:

Gytis.1637:

Okay so if you couldn’t 1 shot then it seems that this would only result bad for thief wouldn’t it ?

Now: you backstab someone and

1. hit – 50% hp left, you’re doing damage with other skills
2. dodge – 100% hp, doing damage with other skills.

Your suggestion: hold BS to max and :

1. hit – 50% hp left, can’t kill – run.
2. dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

Nope more something like:

hold BS to max and:
#hit – 0 to 10%hp left
#dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

hold BS to half and:
#hit – 30 to 40% hp left, half ini for other skills
#dodge – 100% hp, lost half initiative – do something.

spam BS and:
#hit 60-70% hp left, full ini …

it will be more about skill and good/bad choices… something like risk/reward

It would still be a terrible change, backstab damage isn’t high enough for it to really warrant so much nerfage.

you are saying bs damage is not high ?
are we playing the same game ?

it would not be a nerf it would be a “make it more skill based” and for skill I mean player’s skill.

its not high damage compared to some skills and add in all its weaknesses and downsides it comes out as fairly weak overall.

It can hit hard but its not the instant kill highest damage move wtfbbq thing in the game that lots of people seem to think it is

And it would be a nerf, it would make a skill that already has lots of penalities have even greater ones.

Daendur.2357:

you are saying bs damage is not high ?
are we playing the same game ?

it would not be a nerf it would be a “make it more skill based” and for skill I mean player’s skill.

What is your class and game experience?

Daendur.2357:

Gytis.1637:

Okay so if you couldn’t 1 shot then it seems that this would only result bad for thief wouldn’t it ?

Now: you backstab someone and

1. hit – 50% hp left, you’re doing damage with other skills
2. dodge – 100% hp, doing damage with other skills.

Your suggestion: hold BS to max and :

1. hit – 50% hp left, can’t kill – run.
2. dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

Nope more something like:

hold BS to max and:
#hit – 0 to 10%hp left
#dodge – 100% hp, lost all initiative – run.

hold BS to half and:
#hit – 30 to 40% hp left, half ini for other skills
#dodge – 100% hp, lost half initiative – do something.

spam BS and:
#hit 60-70% hp left, full ini …

it will be more about skill and good/bad choices… something like risk/reward

Your suggestion kinda sucks. Let me make a full list of the things that go wrong with it.

1. By making it cost initiative, you either force CnD thieves to get more initiative regen or they will be locked out of the full damage. That’s going to affect the diversity in traits and utilities, as you will have to get some initiative regen if you want the full damage.
2. The initiative cost is not an issue for the Thief. We have tons of ways to increase our initiative regeneration.
3. With your suggested damage being that high, and with some initiative regeneration, the end result is that your thief is going to backstab you once and HS you once or twice and you’re dead.

Of course, there I assume that the damage and speed of charging is dynamic: You cannot get more damage by using longer stealths or by having more initiative. And of course, that the costs adapt to the maximum amount of initiative you have.

So what I am seeing here is a change not to the end result, but to how we get there. Right now, you might see thieves using backstab more than once. With this change, they will use it once, regenerate some initiative and heartseeker you to death.

For example, Signets of Power and Signet use for post-Backstab, plus Kleptomaniac. Now I am up to 5 Initiative with 5 stacks of Might and 15% extra damage. Now I would just heartseeker my opponenet, who apparently has like 10% HP left, to death, regardless of what build they are. Throw in Roll for Initiative in case I miss the backstab.

So how exactly do you foresee this being any different from the current situation?

Olba, and that is the first problem I noticed witht hief as I played it. the initiative system is supposed to balance us, but if you grab 3 ways tor estore initiative you maya s well not even HAVE the initiative system as you no longer need to pay attention to it.

Thieves need every way that regens initiative or expands the initiative pool removed. Yes this comes forms omeone who rather enjoys playing thief from time to time. The class is broken in many ways that is obvious. The upcoming stealth change should quiet people on that front as you won’t be able to stack stealth > if you stealth and it is 3 seconds, then you use your next stealth when it has half a second elft, you will still be revealed with the debuff when the first stealth ends and the second one you used on cooldown. This should end alot of crying, however it still doesn’t fix the problem with initiative itself, as there are ways to make initiative meaningless.

Make the thief require more skill to play as it should be. A bad thief should be nothing but fodder with no way to save themselves. Bad thief in this case is any thief that is a one trick pony (heartseeker spam anyone?).

Ofcourse the best option is to remove initiative entirely and put thieves on the cooldown timers like everyone else and end the problem with endless initiative builds.

problem is with grabbing the ways to restore initiative is you loose out of a lot of other things that would be generally more potent, it sacrifices a lot of the burst power for more sustained combat.

If they are doing the big hits they wont have that restoration, if they have that restoration they won’t be hitting anywhere as hard or with as many utilities/options.

Also talking about skill is pointless, specially when talking about stealth systems in most games as the entire potency of those systems depends on the enemy not the stealther.

Runiir.6425:

he initiative system is supposed to balance us, but if you grab 3 ways tor estore initiative you maya s well not even HAVE the initiative system as you no longer need to pay attention to it.

Thieves need every way that regens initiative or expands the initiative pool removed.

Ofcourse the best option is to remove initiative entirely and put thieves on the cooldown timers like everyone else and end the problem with endless initiative builds

Mmm, that’s a bit harsh. Personally, one of the key things I enjoy on my thief is the lack of cooldowns. Granted, it can be abused to achieve imbalance, but you can also use it to provide the most offensive gameplay of any profession. And that’s one of the biggest reasons I like Thief: the fast-paced combat is really, really exciting. IN comparison, on my Warrior I find myself blowing cooldowns, then I’m down to just using auto-attack or switching to my secondary weaponset until the cooldowns are done.

problem is with grabbing the ways to restore initiative is you loose out of a lot of other things that would be generally more potent, it sacrifices a lot of the burst power for more sustained combat.
If they are doing the big hits they wont have that restoration, if they have that restoration they won’t be hitting anywhere as hard or with as many utilities/options.
Also talking about skill is pointless, specially when talking about stealth systems in most games as the entire potency of those systems depends on the enemy not the stealther.

I was responding to the prospective changes that OP offered for this new Backstab: that a fully-charged Backstab would leave your enemy at 10% hp if it connected. Of course, that also has the problem that there is currently no skill in the game that takes away specific percentages of an opponent’s HP. But if Backstab worked that way, then it wouldn’t really change much, as Thieves would just Backstab and finish you off with a quick HS.

my post was more to runiir saying initiative is pointless, its not and it does prevent a lot of things, just because its theoretically possible to build to semi-ignore it doesnt mean your going to be anywhere near the strength of those that don’t and even then its not totally ignorable.

Olba.5376:

Your suggestion kinda sucks. Let me make a full list of the things that go wrong with it.

1. By making it cost initiative, you either force CnD thieves to get more initiative regen or they will be locked out of the full damage. That’s going to affect the diversity in traits and utilities, as you will have to get some initiative regen if you want the full damage.

You’ll spec for ini regen only if you want… no one is forcing you to go for “full damage bs” and waste all your ini… a plain bs can have 0 cost (as it is now).
It will be a matter of player skill: if you are a bad thief, and you always go for full damage but you find someone that can counter it, you are screwed.

1. The initiative cost is not an issue for the Thief. We have tons of ways to increase our initiative regeneration.
2. With your suggested damage being that high, and with some initiative regeneration, the end result is that your thief is going to backstab you once and HS you once or twice and you’re dead.

This will work against bad players… and again, if you spec for full ini regen you lose defensive skill or other good traits.

Of course, there I assume that the damage and speed of charging is dynamic: You cannot get more damage by using longer stealths or by having more initiative. And of course, that the costs adapt to the maximum amount of initiative you have.

no. It will have to be dynamic…. time related.
Something like 2 ini/sec if you have 7 seconds of stealth remaining you can charge a 14ini backstab.

So what I am seeing here is a change not to the end result, but to how we get there. Right now, you might see thieves using backstab more than once. With this change, they will use it once, regenerate some initiative and heartseeker you to death.

now everyone can bs and spam hs … if bs misses or is evaded/blocked … ok, let’s try again, with the change only high ini regen can deal great damage (if they can) bs and spam hs… it will change the gameplay a lot (at least for BS thieves)

Daendur.2357:

now everyone can bs and spam hs … if bs misses or is evaded/blocked … ok, let’s try again, with the change only high ini regen can deal great damage (if they can) bs and spam hs… it will change the gameplay a lot (at least for BS thieves)

If the kind of bs’s ppl complain about are missed/evaded/blocked no they can not use again because those insane high dmg backstab rely on specific very offensive builds with little, likely no defense and ini regen, as well as using 2-3 utilities to get those high dmg number so those utilities would have to cd first

GummiBear.2756:

Daendur.2357:

now everyone can bs and spam hs … if bs misses or is evaded/blocked … ok, let’s try again, with the change only high ini regen can deal great damage (if they can) bs and spam hs… it will change the gameplay a lot (at least for BS thieves)

If the kind of bs’s ppl complain about are missed/evaded/blocked no they can not use again because those insane high dmg backstab rely on specific very offensive builds with little, likely no defense and ini regen, as well as using 2-3 utilities to get those high dmg number so those utilities would have to cd first

With a non GC build you can easily achieve 6 – 7 k bs (on a non bunker)… it’s not the highest dmg ever, but it is quite respectable, I think.