Guild Wars 2

Anything you buy on TP should be account bound, but you can sell anything you receive via loots drops, chest rewards, crafting, mystic forge use etc etc

No more flipping
No more inflating prices artificially
Stuff becomes cheaper due to not paying a “flipper premium”

I cannot see any downside to this idea.

Thoughts?

Flipping or playing the TP is endgame for a fair number of people.

So would you like it if they closed the WvW areas or all the dungeons?

I miss the way things were done in original Guild Wars. Vendors in a way “monitored” the market of needed materials. Players bartered and traded with each other.

Gehenna.3625:

Flipping or playing the TP is endgame for a fair number of people.

So would you like it if they closed the WvW areas or all the dungeons?

If playing the TP is considered end-game then that doesn’t say much for the quality of GW2 level 80 content.

Since when would the TP become closed under such a system? People can still buy anything they need and sell everything they get that they don’t want.

whats wrong with flipping?

Yes, the game should be dumbed down even more for incompetents.

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

There is no “value added” to an item from flipping, just profiting from other players.

If the general consensus is that flipping, speculation and market manipulation are ok from the majority of players then I have my answer. I’m just disappointed in the answer.

Playing the TP makes the most money, I know. I just thought there’d be more people who thought this isn’t right.

Seems I’m wrong.

Chullster.3608:

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

There is no “value added” to an item from flipping, just profiting from other players.

If the general consensus is that flipping, speculation and market manipulation are ok from the majority of players then I have my answer. I’m just disappointed in the answer.

Playing the TP makes the most money, I know. I just thought there’d be more people who thought this isn’t right.

Seems I’m wrong.

goods do not have any intrinsic value, their value is what anyone is willing to pay for them.

Speculation and “manipulations” do not harm markets unless they are initiated by a monopoly, that is a common misunderstanding of markets in the real world, as well as it is in game. Please, no commie … in GW2.

Why do bad ideas/threads always come in threes?

Chullster.3608:

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

There is no “value added” to an item from flipping, just profiting from other players.

If the general consensus is that flipping, speculation and market manipulation are ok from the majority of players then I have my answer. I’m just disappointed in the answer.

Playing the TP makes the most money, I know. I just thought there’d be more people who thought this isn’t right.

Seems I’m wrong.

No. You’re not the only one who feels that the practice is wrong. There are many, many people who think that it is wrong. It’s just that the people who take advantage of the TP are very, very vocal and love trying to browbeat all others into agreeing with them.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Chullster.3608:

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

There is no “value added” to an item from flipping, just profiting from other players.

If the general consensus is that flipping, speculation and market manipulation are ok from the majority of players then I have my answer. I’m just disappointed in the answer.

Playing the TP makes the most money, I know. I just thought there’d be more people who thought this isn’t right.

Seems I’m wrong.

No. You’re not the only one who feels that the practice is wrong. There are many, many people who think that it is wrong. It’s just that the people who take advantage of the TP are very, very vocal and love trying to browbeat all others into agreeing with them.

It’s not even that. It’s the question of “why prevent players from doing this?” which is there. Preventing this sort of thing could very well come off as an arbitrary limitation, no matter how well it is received. And the more limitations you put on what your players can do, well . . .

And no, I don’t flip. I use the Trading Post to dispose of things I don’t really want but people are willing to pay a few silver over merchant value for. What do I care what they do with them after . . . flip them, break them down for materials, Mystic Forge them, or stick them on an alt to add to a hoarded collection of Tridents . . .

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SynfulChaot.3169:

No. You’re not the only one who feels that the practice is wrong. There are many, many people who think that it is wrong. It’s just that the people who take advantage of the TP are very, very vocal and love trying to browbeat all others into agreeing with them.

It’s not even that. It’s the question of “why prevent players from doing this?” which is there. Preventing this sort of thing could very well come off as an arbitrary limitation, no matter how well it is received. And the more limitations you put on what your players can do, well . . .

Arbitrary limitations? Like the ones that keep getting imposed on those that try to accrue gold without abusing the TP? Like Diminishing Returns? Like once-a-day account-bound rewards so as to prevent using alts? Like that fact that it is impossible to make as much money in a day without abusing the TP than you can by playing the market and siphoning money out of the system without returning any value?

Players that just want to play the game itself are constantly being hit with these ‘arbitrary limitations’. Why should TP abusers be immune?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Players that just want to play the game itself are constantly being hit with these ‘arbitrary limitations’. Why should TP abusers be immune?

Because it’s the only thing going for that method of making money? It takes a large amount of capital to get started, is rather risky sometimes, and is akin to day trading stocks – it’s not going to be completely stable.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Players that just want to play the game itself are constantly being hit with these ‘arbitrary limitations’. Why should TP abusers be immune?

Because it’s the only thing going for that method of making money? It takes a large amount of capital to get started, is rather risky sometimes, and is akin to day trading stocks – it’s not going to be completely stable.

So because it’s ‘risky’, they should have no limitations? Despite everyone else having an abundance of limitations/restrictions. Running dungeons isn’t exactly risk-free, you know.

SynfulChaot.3169:

So because it’s ‘risky’, they should have no limitations? Despite everyone else having an abundance of limitations/restrictions. Running dungeons isn’t exactly risk-free, you know.

Running dungeons won’t lose you as much as some of these flippers could be spending . . . I mean, unless you REALLY tank that run a lot and make a lot of trips to the anvil.

By the way, OP’s point and the question of whether the flipping should be curtailed somehow is a good one. But I haven’t seen a solution yet which doesn’t punish everyone else also. Keep brainstorming, folks.

You can convince yourself that a lot of bad ideas are in fact good ideas if you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

So far the only downside to all things bought on TP being account bound is that it’ll stop flipppers and speculators, I have yet to see a point written that harms normal/casual/hardcore players.

Speculations/flipping/manipulation do harm the market in this game, it actually stops something having the correct market value and is anti competitive. Far from being “commie”, as some 1950s comment implies, I think such a change would correct the artificial prices and items would be priced at the value provided by players who actually want to use their purchase rather than those seeking to squeeze a premium out of other players.

I also see no arbitrary limitations. With my suggestion you could buy all the materials for a legendary or anything else you require, you could also still sell absolutely anything you get as a loot drop or crafting etc.

No change in gameplay for anyone other than TP flippers

So I don’t think such a change would even be noticed by most players other than prices generally falling and junk items no one actually wants gathering dust on the TP.

Chullster.3608:

Speculations/flipping/manipulation do harm the market in this game, it actually stops something having the correct market value and is anti competitive. Far from being “commie”, as some 1950s comment implies, I think such a change would correct the artificial prices and items would be priced at the value provided by players who actually want to use their purchase rather than those seeking to squeeze a premium out of other players.

Hit the nail on the head, there.

If they did this they they would need to implement some sort of refund option too … can’t think I’m the ONLY person who might have clicked “buy” by mistake on some hugely expensive item I was only trying to preview. Yes, it’s my fault for rushing it, so normally I’d resell it on the TP, and accept a small loss of change if that’s the case. But if I can’t resell it, not sure what I’d do with it and it would be stupid to just destroy something worth money.

CrossedHorse.4261:

If they did this they they would need to implement some sort of refund option too … can’t think I’m the ONLY person who might have clicked “buy” by mistake on some hugely expensive item I was only trying to preview. Yes, it’s my fault for rushing it, so normally I’d resell it on the TP, and accept a small loss of change if that’s the case. But if I can’t resell it, not sure what I’d do with it and it would be stupid to just destroy something worth money.

This sounds like a pretty reasonable idea too, if it has a small time limit (10 secs? whatever is decided) so it could not be abused when a cheaper alternative becomes available. It would actually be better than reselling on the TP as it is now if you made such a mistake, so would be an improvement.

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

Flipping is the current “flavor of the week” pointless complaint.

AntiGw.9367:

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

Flipping is the current “flavor of the week” pointless complaint.

Hardly FOTW for me. I got the idea months ago while discussing in game money generation on the GW2Guru forums which I no longer use.

I saw the other post about limits on TP profits which I think is unworkable and could harm all types of players, so I posted my own solution (stolen from another GW2guru poster) to see if I had missed any negative outcomes.

I thought bashing necros was fotw?

AntiGw.9367:

DrixTrix.7168:

whats wrong with flipping?

Flipping is the current “flavor of the week” pointless complaint.

ah makes sense.

on a side note: @ Chullster, Flipping or ‘’playing the auction house/tp’’ makes the most money in every game, and of course even in life unless maybe you have bill gates / steve jobs type of visionary.

Sigh, another whiner who cant buy that item he/she wants off the TP, so has a cry on forums. It’s a simple case of buying cheap/in bulks and selling expensive? What is so hard to understand…

Note the politeness of people against flipping and the rudeness of those arguing for. It’s very noticeable.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Note the politeness of people against flipping and the rudeness of those arguing for. It’s very noticeable.

These threads, these people. Jeez. :P

SynfulChaot.3169:

Note the politeness of people against flipping and the rudeness of those arguing for. It’s very noticeable.

It’s because those who are for it are so taken back by the sheer audacity of those who are against it. “I dislike this style of play, and obviously am not very good at it, so please remove it from the game. Thank you!”. I actually came to this thread expecting to find that it was a joke, to be completely honest. I can certainly understand why someone would become annoyed at such a blatant display of self-centeredness.

IMO, this is a ridiculous idea. I’m personally terrible at AH flipping; I wish I wasn’t, I’ve tried it many times and failed every time, but the truth is I lose more money than I gain when I try it. But that said, just because I and others in this thread are no good at it doesn’t mean it should be removed from the game because there are those who are good at it. If that was the case, I would argue that PvP and dungeons should be removed from the game as well, and if not that, then all rewards tied to them should be!

All together, the only saving grace of this thread is that it is so fantastical in its idea that there is no chance of ever seeing it happen.

Can you imagine? “Oh look, I see an item I’d like to buy for my friend! Let me buy it for him/her and mail it to them… oh wait, it’s account bound now. Oh well, no more gifts for my friends!”.

tl;dr- No.

Bad ideas are just bad ideas, thankfully.

Flippers are beneficial though….

If you want to sell something immediately you can sell it to a flipper, if you want to buy something immediately you can buy it from a flipper. The flipper is the one that has to spend the time buying and selling so for this, the flipper takes a small fee.

If there were no flippers, someone would have to wait unless a buy order and sell order were put up at the exact same time. Would you want to have to wait for something every time?

AtoBoss.2906:

Sigh, another whiner who cant buy that item he/she wants off the TP, so has a cry on forums. It’s a simple case of buying cheap/in bulks and selling expensive? What is so hard to understand…

While I’m not going to argue that flipping is the easiest way to make gold I’d ask you to consider the fact that some people just aren’t willing to engage in this kind of arguably unethical behavior.

As a flipper the only contribution to the market space you make is getting between buyers and sellers and raising prices so you can benefit from the work of others. That is something you have to accept when flipping and not everybody is willing to do that.

Fungalfoot.7213:

AtoBoss.2906:

Sigh, another whiner who cant buy that item he/she wants off the TP, so has a cry on forums. It’s a simple case of buying cheap/in bulks and selling expensive? What is so hard to understand…

While I’m not going to argue that flipping is the easiest way to make gold I’d ask you to consider the fact that some people just aren’t willing to engage in this kind of arguably unethical behavior.

As a flipper the only contribution to the market space you make is getting between buyers and sellers and raising praises so you can benefit from the work of others. That is something you have to accept when flipping and not everybody is willing to do that.

But read my post above? Flippers do give a service, they give a service of time for other players. They give everyone else the opportunity to buy and sell instantly, they have to have items on their hands for sometimes days at a time so it’s only fair for them to take a small fee.

I’m sorry. Every time I hear “flippers are beneficial” I just laugh at the sheer absurdity of the statement.

Fungalfoot.7213:

While I’m not going to argue that flipping is the easiest way to make gold I’d ask you to consider the fact that some people just aren’t willing to engage in this kind of arguably unethical behavior.

As a flipper the only contribution to the market space you make is getting between buyers and sellers and raising prices so you can benefit from the work of others. That is something you have to accept when flipping and not everybody is willing to do that.

At least you understand. I wish more were capable.

Joe.8142:

But read my post above? Flippers do give a service, they give a service of time for other players. They give everyone else the opportunity to buy and sell instantly, they have to have items on their hands for sometimes days at a time so it’s only fair for them to take a small fee.

False. Flippers are not required for that. The base framework of the TP does that just fine. Flippers just get in there and siphon money out, raising the buy orders and only slightly lowering the sell orders. Overall a net drain and not beneficial to anyone but themselves, to the detriment of any other player wanting to purchase said good.

Joe.8142:

But read my post above? Flippers do give a service, they give a service of time for other players. They give everyone else the opportunity to buy and sell instantly, they have to have items on their hands for sometimes days at a time so it’s only fair for them to take a small fee.

If you take a shortsighted approach to things, sure.

But the end result is farmers getting less money and buyers paying more so the flipper can continue operating. Trying to pretend that you’re doing the community a service by flipping is disingenuous at best and is only going to cause more anger. And yes, I have flipped myself during a time when I needed a lot of gold quickly so I perfectly understand why people do it. That said, I’m not proud of it and neither should anyone else be.

SynfulChaot.3169:

I’m sorry. Every time I hear “flippers are beneficial” I just laugh at the sheer absurdity of the statement.

Fungalfoot.7213:

………

….

But they are. Not only do they give others the opportunity to buy and sell instantly they also narrow price gaps between items believe it or not!

Say an item has a highest buy order of 2g and a lowest sell order of 8g. Flipper A comes in and puts an offer in for 2g 1s, then flipper B comes in and buys for 2g 2s. Then when you have hundreds and hundreds of flippers that have all noticed this enormous potential profit suddenly the margins have reduced from over/undercutting.

If there were no flippers this would not happen as quickly.

SynfulChaot.3169:

…

……..

…….

But read my post above? Flippers do give a service, they give a service of time for other players. They give everyone else the opportunity to buy and sell instantly, they have to have items on their hands for sometimes days at a time so it’s only fair for them to take a small fee.

False. Flippers are not required for that. The base framework of the TP does that just fine. Flippers just get in there and siphon money out, raising the buy orders and only slightly lowering the sell orders. Overall a net drain and not beneficial to anyone but themselves, to the detriment of any other player wanting to purchase said good.

But they are required for that. If there were no flippers then somebody would HAVE to wait, think about it. Unless a buy and sell order for the same amount are put in at the exact same time somebody will have to wait.

Also ‘raising the buy orders and only slightly lowering the sell orders’. Is this not a benefit? Somebody wants to sell an item and thanks to flippers they can sell it for more. If somebody wants to buy an item then they can buy it for less, due to our friend Mr Flipper.

Joe.8142:

But they are. Not only do they give others the opportunity to buy and sell instantly they also narrow price gaps between items believe it or not!

Say an item has a highest buy order of 2g and a lowest sell order of 8g. Flipper A comes in and puts an offer in for 2g 1s, then flipper B comes in and buys for 2g 2s. Then when you have hundreds and hundreds of flippers that have all noticed this enormous potential profit suddenly the margins have reduced from over/undercutting.

If there were no flippers this would not happen as quickly.

Umm … you do realize that you can buy and sell instantly without flippers, right? Trades do not require anyone to stay at the TP until they are fulfilled.

As far as narrowing the price gap? Yeah. They do that. But the end result is only minutely lower sell orders and much higher buy orders. So if you’re looking to save money, you’ll actually be spending more.

Chullster.3608:

So far the only downside to all things bought on TP being account bound is that it’ll stop flipppers and speculators, I have yet to see a point written that harms normal/casual/hardcore players.

Ok, so I’m a casual player and buy level 10 blues off the TP for my character. When I gain a few levels I equip better items that I got from drops/hearts and go to sell the l10 blues on the TP and get some of my money back… but I can’t because they are account bound now.

SynfulChaot.3169:

Joe.8142:

…

Umm … you do realize that you can buy and sell instantly without flippers, right? Trades do not require anyone to stay at the TP until they are fulfilled.

As far as narrowing the price gap? Yeah. They do that. But the end result is only minutely lower sell orders and much higher buy orders. So if you’re looking to save money, you’ll actually be spending more.

Not everyone will be able to buy and sell instantly without flippers… Think about it, please.

In a world without flippers.

Player A wants to sell item Z, there is buy offer from Player B. Player A sells the item to Player B but player B has had to wait.

Player A wants to sell item X, there is no buy offer from another player so player A has to wait.

See the problem here?
It cannot happen instantly without flippers.

Joe.8142:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Umm … you do realize that you can buy and sell instantly without flippers, right? Trades do not require anyone to stay at the TP until they are fulfilled.

As far as narrowing the price gap? Yeah. They do that. But the end result is only minutely lower sell orders and much higher buy orders. So if you’re looking to save money, you’ll actually be spending more.

Not everyone will be able to buy and sell instantly without flippers… Think about it, please.

In a world without flippers.

Player A wants to sell item Z, there is buy offer from Player B. Player A sells the item to Player B but player B has had to wait.

Player A wants to sell item X, there is no buy offer from another player so player A has to wait.

See the problem here?
It cannot happen instantly without flippers.

Yes we still can if you’re talking of sell orders. Those are always instantly fulfilled. And if you’re talking of buy offers then you’ll need to wait for a seller regardless.

Sorry, Joe, but flippers are not necessary for a healthy economy. Period.

SynfulChaot.3169:

As far as narrowing the price gap? Yeah. They do that. But the end result is only minutely lower sell orders and much higher buy orders.

Much higher than what exactly?

Higher than some arbitrary price that you think is fair?

SynfulChaot.3169:

Joe.8142:

SynfulChaot.3169:

….

…..

In a world without flippers.

Player A wants to sell item Z, there is buy offer from Player B. Player A sells the item to Player B but player B has had to wait.

Player A wants to sell item X, there is no buy offer from another player so player A has to wait.

See the problem here?
It cannot happen instantly without flippers.

Yes we still can if you’re talking of sell orders. Those are always instantly fulfilled. And if you’re talking of buy offers then you’ll need to wait for a seller regardless.

Sorry, Joe, but flippers are not necessary for a healthy economy. Period.

Sell orders will always get fulfilled because you can sell to flippers. Buy orders can always be fulfilled as well because you can buy off flippers. People will pay for saving time, so I do not see the problem with flippers.

Fungalfoot.7213:

AtoBoss.2906:

Sigh, another whiner who cant buy that item he/she wants off the TP, so has a cry on forums. It’s a simple case of buying cheap/in bulks and selling expensive? What is so hard to understand…

While I’m not going to argue that flipping is the easiest way to make gold I’d ask you to consider the fact that some people just aren’t willing to engage in this kind of arguably unethical behavior.

As a flipper the only contribution to the market space you make is getting between buyers and sellers and raising prices so you can benefit from the work of others. That is something you have to accept when flipping and not everybody is willing to do that.

And people have used the same argument against the RNG boxes – it’s gambling and gambling is unethical and because some people don’t like doing it no one should do it. It’s also been used against selling Playboy magazines in stores, selling alcohol in bars, playing Dungeons and Dragons, letting children read Harry Potter books, playing violent video games, etc.

Just because you choose not to engage in something doesn’t automatically give you the right to keep me from doing it.

I hate the Mystic Toilet, no one should be able to use it :P That one is actually fine.

AntiGw.9367:

SynfulChaot.3169:

As far as narrowing the price gap? Yeah. They do that. But the end result is only minutely lower sell orders and much higher buy orders.

Much higher than what exactly?

Higher than some arbitrary price that you think is fair?

Higher than they were before. I thought that was obvious.

Joe.8142:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Yes we still can if you’re talking of sell orders. Those are always instantly fulfilled. And if you’re talking of buy offers then you’ll need to wait for a seller regardless.

Sorry, Joe, but flippers are not necessary for a healthy economy. Period.

Sell orders will always get fulfilled because you can sell to flippers. Buy orders can always be fulfilled as well because you can buy off flippers. People will pay for saving time, so I do not see the problem with flippers.

Sell orders will not always get fulfilled. Nor will buy orders. Flippers both reduce how much you could possible make selling an item and raise the price of buying an item by constantly flipping items in the space in between. And they only do it on items that have a large enough delta between buy and sell offers. So basically on things that are already popular enough to sell. Aka items that would actually sell to players directly. They purely leech money from others without contributing anything. Really. Flippers are not required for the economy to operate.

SynfulChaot.3169:

AntiGw.9367:

SynfulChaot.3169:

As far as narrowing the price gap? Yeah. They do that. But the end result is only minutely lower sell orders and much higher buy orders.

Much higher than what exactly?

Higher than some arbitrary price that you think is fair?

Higher than they were before. I thought that was obvious.

And they should have remained lower because?

AntiGw.9367:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Higher than they were before. I thought that was obvious.

And they should have remained lower because?

Because the market should be based off of actual buy and sell offers, not flippers. Let the market normalize itself without the leeches.

SynfulChaot.3169:

AntiGw.9367:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Higher than they were before. I thought that was obvious.

And they should have remained lower because?

Because the market should be based off of actual buy and sell offers, not flippers. Let the market normalize itself without the leeches.

But it does, if no one is willing to pay for the price that the flipper posts it simply won’t sell.

Yes and you should be able to get the skins back when you buy them (like the achievement skins). Doing an accidental transmutation on an item you bought with real money is terrible.

Izaya.2906:

SynfulChaot.3169:

Because the market should be based off of actual buy and sell offers, not flippers. Let the market normalize itself without the leeches.

But it does, if no one is willing to pay for the price that the flipper posts it simply won’t sell.

*sigh*

Of course that would be true … if flippers didn’t post lower than the sell offers and buy higher than the other buy offers, thus making others putting in buy offers higher than the flippers and making theirs the lowest of the sell offers. So yes, the flippers stuff almost always sells. But the guy they undercut doesn’t always sell.

Really … why do I even try using common sense …

Eh … I’m off to bed. Enjoy the rest of your discourse …

You have to understand two things about making this change:

a.) You need to make a method where every individual TP bought item can be stored back in your bank without breaking old bank code. As it stands, a change like this may be done in a couple of methods: you could make a separate stack to the bank showing bought items and not-bought items, as well as modifying recipes and the likes to work with the two kinds of items (account bound crafting materials and non-account bound crafting materials). Or you could recreate the bank mechanism so it tracks in one stack the number of items that you have. The problem is that such a mechanism would require a major overhaul just to add a small change to the over-all system, introducing new bugs that may be game-breaking in essence.

b.) You would inconvenience those who buy more materials than required for crafting, and would like to sell them back. To solve this to be doable in-game would require either addition of a UI for QoL changes for crafting, as well as having another layer of change to the UI to have a confirmation window when you are buying.