Guild Wars 2

I think that thieves should be more unlimited stealth now let me explain why. Right now you get 2 seconds of stealth at any time you want, and this really really frustrates people. With this type of model I am thinking of it would be you get unlimited stealth except you can’t stealth during combat. Maybe have 1 long utility CD that stealths you during combat, but other than that you have to stay entirely visible during combat. You can however stay in stealth as long as you want, until you begin combat. Now before you say “UNLIMITED STEALTH WILL MAKE IT A BAJILLION TIMES WORSE!!!!!” ask yourself.. would you rather fight a thief that has to be entirely visible the entire fight, or a thief that can stealth every 2 seconds while fighting? Even I(as a thief) get irritated when I’m fighting other thieves because they stealth every 2 seconds and backstab. This may be a nerf to thief but it would be far more fun to play this way for everyone. How would they do this? I have a few ideas:

First, replace “Steal” with “Cloak”. What this would do is of course give you the ability to stealth (out of combat only) without having to change the way that utilities and etc work. Second you would want to replace the utilities that stealth you, because with this style you don’t want thieves cloaking every 2 seconds during combat. Maybe add 1 utility with a very long CD that stealths you once during combat. They would also have to change the “cloak and dagger” ability because it stealths you as well.

But these are all very simple and easy changes which would make thief more enjoyable for everyone, it would make thief more killable first of all (after they revealed themselves of course, they could not stealth again until they had killed you.) And as a thief myself, I’d rather have the assassin-like gameplay instead of the “run around and spam 2 second stealth abilities during combat” gameplay. Not to mention this would also fix the stealth issues, because once the thief unstealths, he unstealths until the end of combat unless he uses a utility which has a very long CD to stealth again. The rendering issues (as far as I know) are caused because of the thief stealthing too many times in a short period of time, causing the system to not display their character model for a few seconds. With this you would see them instantly as they revealed themselves, and they wouldn’t be able to spam stealths to glitch the system.

Now I believe I got my point across lolz, if you read this far then thank you, your feedback would also be appreciated.

There are a few issues and a few good points I see here.

1. In a PvP environment, the constant threat of an attack from an enemy is part of the play style. In WvWvW specifically, an unlimited-stealth Thief will not have any threat at just about any point and time unless they are willing to have threat on themselves. This means area capture, map completion, etc would completely favor a Thief.

2. In that same regard, PvE content would be completely uninteresting. Need map completion? What about communing with a heavily guarded Skill Point? With a perma-stealth Thief, the challenge of, well, playing the game… would vanish. In that sense, they would also have an unfair advantage over other classes who have to trudge through hordes of enemies to complete what they need.

3. “Simple” skill changes would not be as simple as you think. From a programming standpoint, that’s a full couple of monthly patches worth of work for the ANet team in order to remove stealth from weapon skills, passive traits and active traits. These would have to be replaced with other skills or modified versions of what already exists, after which they would need extensive balance testing, bug testing, and “fun” testing by QA and the content designer.

Let’s not forget that there’s a whole Utility Skill sub-group specifically made for stealth – [Deception.]. As this is considered a unique Utility feature for thieves, they would need replacing as well. Again, a lot of testing all around.

4. While I’m sure you aren’t the only person with these complaints, many players have already grown accustomed to Thieves how they are in their current state. With the suggested changes, these players would have to adapt to almost an entirely new class and playstyle. Not only would players be confused, many might also feel betrayed and cheated because something they know and love, and dedicated time to playing was taken away from them. Minor changes and balances to skills are fine, but changing most of the mechanics to how a Thief works could make a player hate the profession they were using as their main (or only) profession.

—

Let’s talk about the state of Thieves at the moment as well. If asked, many players would say that Thieves dominate the PvP environment as a whole. Their damage output and ability to reset a fight whenever they choose gives them extreme versatility. While this could probably use some toning down, especially to the amount of stealths we see during combat (which can turn into stealth-spam rather than a finesse to managing skills), I would think it’s safe to say Thieves are in a pretty good spot. Overall, they have a niche playstyle, particularly for those who like stealth-heavy combat and the ability to pick and choose which fights they want to start, and which fights they want to finish. Needless to say, it’s an acquired taste, and it feels pretty different compared to many stealth-heavy classes from other MMORPGs, but the Thief in this game has a unique style to it that fits with the style of combat the game is aiming for.

—

So what good can come from your suggestion? Having longer stealths while out of combat and shorter stealths while in combat is a great idea. Testing could/should happen to see about extending the amount of time a player is stealthed with each ability when activated OUT of combat, and reducing the time stealthed when activated IN combat. This could ease some of the issues and give Thieves the assassin feel some players might be looking for without sacrificing the “guess where I’m attacking from” gameplay players have come to know.

Also, Steal is a bit heavy on the “randomness” that comes with it, leading to some cool successes, or some pretty bad failures. A replacement or dedicated item to come from Steal could be a nice change to make Thieves feel a little stronger.

From a game mechanic/lore standpoint, random behavior is supposed to come from Mesmers and Engineers, each having their own playstyles focused around random behavior. The Thief, however, is supposed to be a masterful assassin, and a precision striker. The random behavior of Steal just doesn’t feel like it fits, and is something that I believe can be improved on.

Other than that, nice suggestion to start a good brainstorming session. While I don’t think ANet will ever do something this drastic to the Thief, especially so early into the game’s life cycle, it’s always worth discussing to see various points of view.

Ok, I have come up with a few ideas as changes for the utilities and abilities that put you into stealth. Keep in mind that these are just ideas and Arenanet(if they were to go through with this) could change or tweak them at any time.

1. [Hide in Shadows] | A simple change for this would be to change the 3 seconds of stealth to 3 seconds of evading attacks.

2. [Shadow Refuge] | All they would really have to do with this is make it a circular [Smoke Screen] (it blocks projectiles in a line).

3. [Cloak and Dagger] | This would be very easy for them to fix as well, simply change the stealth part to something like “causes the target to bleed”.

4. [Blinding Powder] | What they can do here is remove the stealth part of it, and have it blind multiple times instead.

5. Finally the downed ability (smoke bomb I think it’s called) would not have to be changed because it is only available while you are downed and it’s only for 3 seconds anyway.

And here I’m going to list the traits, and possible things they can do with them:

“Descent of Shadows” “Release blinding powder when you take falling damage, take 50% less damage from falling.” If they were to change blinding powder as I said on number 4 above, then blinding powder would no longer stealth you so this problem would already be fixed.

“Last refuge” “Release blinding powder when you reach 25% health” This is the same explanation as “descent of shadows” above.

“Instinctual response” “Use feathers to stealth you when you take more than 10% of your total health in damage with a single strike” A simple change for this would to have you instead shadowstep away instead of going into stealth.

“Hidden Thief” “stealing gives you 2 seconds of stealth” Since “Steal” would be replaced with “Cloak” then you would have to change this trait to perhaps augment “Cloak” like.. “Using cloak gives you 10 seconds of swiftness” something like that.

EDIT: Accidentally double-posted number 5.

1) Perma-stealth is often countered by making the user incapable of surviving out of stealth (Otherwise they’d be ridiculously overpowered)

2) Perma-stealth is often used as a huge front-load of damage (If it’s less likely you’ll stealth up again in combat, how else will Stealth traits and abilities be used?)

3) Perma-stealth needs to have counters such as stealth detection buffs, auras and effects which often lead to the perma-stealth class being completely useless against competent players and removes any escape options available.

4) A combination of these things will change Theif PvP from “Grrr… He keeps stealthing all the time, if only I could randomly attack at him since my skills don’t need a target to be used” into “WTF I just got one shotted randomly be a thief… NERF!” OR “Oh look a Thief attacked me, yay! Free kill”

Just a few things to note about such a drastic change (More and more MMO’s are learning the lesson about perma-stealth and giving it durations allowing it to be more balanced)

Taril.8619:

1) Perma-stealth is often countered by making the user incapable of surviving out of stealth (Otherwise they’d be ridiculously overpowered)

2) Perma-stealth is often used as a huge front-load of damage (If it’s less likely you’ll stealth up again in combat, how else will Stealth traits and abilities be used?)

3) Perma-stealth needs to have counters such as stealth detection buffs, auras and effects which often lead to the perma-stealth class being completely useless against competent players and removes any escape options available.

4) A combination of these things will change Theif PvP from “Grrr… He keeps stealthing all the time, if only I could randomly attack at him since my skills don’t need a target to be used” into “WTF I just got one shotted randomly be a thief… NERF!” OR “Oh look a Thief attacked me, yay! Free kill”

Just a few things to note about such a drastic change (More and more MMO’s are learning the lesson about perma-stealth and giving it durations allowing it to be more balanced)

I would kindly suggest that you read a post before you comment on it, Read my post just above yours, thanks.

And regarding the “balanced” part.. thief would remain the way it is, except the stealth style would be changed and of course so would the things that I posted above.

eindigen.1275:

There are a few issues and a few good points I see here.

1. In a PvP environment, the constant threat of an attack from an enemy is part of the play style. In WvWvW specifically, an unlimited-stealth Thief will not have any threat at just about any point and time unless they are willing to have threat on themselves. This means area capture, map completion, etc would completely favor a Thief.

2. In that same regard, PvE content would be completely uninteresting. Need map completion? What about communing with a heavily guarded Skill Point? With a perma-stealth Thief, the challenge of, well, playing the game… would vanish. In that sense, they would also have an unfair advantage over other classes who have to trudge through hordes of enemies to complete what they need.

3. “Simple” skill changes would not be as simple as you think. From a programming standpoint, that’s a full couple of monthly patches worth of work for the ANet team in order to remove stealth from weapon skills, passive traits and active traits. These would have to be replaced with other skills or modified versions of what already exists, after which they would need extensive balance testing, bug testing, and “fun” testing by QA and the content designer.

Let’s not forget that there’s a whole Utility Skill sub-group specifically made for stealth – [Deception.]. As this is considered a unique Utility feature for thieves, they would need replacing as well. Again, a lot of testing all around.

4. While I’m sure you aren’t the only person with these complaints, many players have already grown accustomed to Thieves how they are in their current state. With the suggested changes, these players would have to adapt to almost an entirely new class and playstyle. Not only would players be confused, many might also feel betrayed and cheated because something they know and love, and dedicated time to playing was taken away from them. Minor changes and balances to skills are fine, but changing most of the mechanics to how a Thief works could make a player hate the profession they were using as their main (or only) profession.

—

Let’s talk about the state of Thieves at the moment as well. If asked, many players would say that Thieves dominate the PvP environment as a whole. Their damage output and ability to reset a fight whenever they choose gives them extreme versatility. While this could probably use some toning down, especially to the amount of stealths we see during combat (which can turn into stealth-spam rather than a finesse to managing skills), I would think it’s safe to say Thieves are in a pretty good spot. Overall, they have a niche playstyle, particularly for those who like stealth-heavy combat and the ability to pick and choose which fights they want to start, and which fights they want to finish. Needless to say, it’s an acquired taste, and it feels pretty different compared to many stealth-heavy classes from other MMORPGs, but the Thief in this game has a unique style to it that fits with the style of combat the game is aiming for.

—

So what good can come from your suggestion? Having longer stealths while out of combat and shorter stealths while in combat is a great idea. Testing could/should happen to see about extending the amount of time a player is stealthed with each ability when activated OUT of combat, and reducing the time stealthed when activated IN combat. This could ease some of the issues and give Thieves the assassin feel some players might be looking for without sacrificing the “guess where I’m attacking from” gameplay players have come to know.

Also, Steal is a bit heavy on the “randomness” that comes with it, leading to some cool successes, or some pretty bad failures. A replacement or dedicated item to come from Steal could be a nice change to make Thieves feel a little stronger.

From a game mechanic/lore standpoint, random behavior is supposed to come from Mesmers and Engineers, each having their own playstyles focused around random behavior. The Thief, however, is supposed to be a masterful assassin, and a precision striker. The random behavior of Steal just doesn’t feel like it fits, and is something that I believe can be improved on.

Other than that, nice suggestion to start a good brainstorming session. While I don’t think ANet will ever do something this drastic to the Thief, especially so early into the game’s life cycle, it’s always worth discussing to see various points of view.

The main thing for me would be the ability to just stay stealthed until I wanted to attack. That’s the funnest part of a stealth class.

No. kitten No.

If you want a standard stealth-rogue, go play one of the other thousand games which include them. Want a little flavor? Play a ranger in Age of Conan. They’re ranged rogues.

A: Changing steal to cloak – You just took “steal” away from “thief” and completely eliminated one of the defining mechanics of the class, and one of the things that makes learning thief rewarding (how/when to properly use or hold stolen items)

B: No combat stealth – You’ve essentially turned all thief combat in to melee ranger combat without a pet. You’ve effectively destroyed another class defining mechanic of the thief (Mastry of Stealth as a defensive tool)

C: Your opinion. People that play thieves have a variety of playstyles. The idea that it would “make theives more enjoyable for everyone” is pure conjecture. Personally, I don’t enjoy fighting mesmers, ever. I don’t like fighting against their clone mechanic, I don’t like having to ferret out the real mesmer. I’m also not going to suggest clones be removed from the class because it is a core part of how they engage in combat.

Realize that, unlike more traditional rogue archetypes, Thieves actually have more build options than frontloading huge alpha strikes, and you’re talking about removing all but one build option. This is just plain silly.

I love it. People with no idea of how the class works posting about how they got stomped and need the class to be nerfed into the ground.

And don’t say it wouldn’t have that effect on it because if you think that then you have no idea how the class works and really shouldn’t be suggesting any changes to it.

Jrunyon.3012:

I love it. People with no idea of how the class works posting about how they got stomped and need the class to be nerfed into the ground.

And don’t say it wouldn’t have that effect on it because if you think that then you have no idea how the class works and really shouldn’t be suggesting any changes to it.

I play a thief. I have played thief since early release, thanks.

I think pve thieves should receive a perma stealth that they must disable manually before being about to use an attack. This would allow pve thieves the ability to run around and do things unencumbered by say the billions of CC attacks in Orr. It would allow for the pickpocket mechanic and would improve overall pve gameplay. This stealth should be broken via damage and can only be used out of combat. The Tactical Officers in STO have something like this, a cloaking device that must manually be turned off before one can use the attacks they have and it has a 2 second delay before these attacks are available.

I think if this is put in place this would remove the problem of not having a permastealth and prevent it from being abused. It would allow for things that are missing to be put into the game for this class and make it more standardized.

I don’t think that they should change the combat stealths because they really are perfect the way they are now. Culling is terrible bug and I can understand the frustration but you don’t have to be perfect to do damage to a thief in stealth, it just requires some creative AOE targeting.

BTW I do play a thief but I don’t pvp as a rule. I hate PVP even with the advantages this class and the culling bug would give me.

No i disagree, I played a rogue as one of my characters when i played WoW and i must say i much prefer the way they are done here in GW2. Perma stealth also gives you a massive advantage in ANY pve content. Oh look a champion stealth straight past the mob now that was much easier then any other class who had to either A, leave whatever was behind that mob, or B, try and take down the champion

Same in WvW, stupidly over powered again. Massive zerg inc stealth untill gone carry on with whatever you was doing. Easily penetrate enemy supplies, keeps, towers.

Most classes in this game would have no counter to a perma stealth thief either, in games like wow it’s fine as EVERY single class has some sort of AoE that they can use to try and unstealth the rogue. In GW2 as you only have 10 spells, 1 a healing spell, 5 as weapon spells (which not all have AOE or long cd’s on the AOE) and an elite which isn’t normally aoe. Unless you have atleast one of your 3 utlity spells as an aoe spell you have no chance of defending yourself against a stealthed thief.

That kind of thief is a boring style to play as and a even more boring class to fight against.

here is a very good thief at work. it is a very energetic play style and is very effective. the class doesn’t need a revamp. if you prefer WoW’s cloak and dagger approach, go back to it. This is about acrobatics, movement, and timing. oh, and no small amount of skill.

No… Why?

Quite frankly, I enjoy being that —--head that stabs you in the back and disappears in a puff of smoke and vapor.

BAHAHAHAHA!!

Brewergamer.8357:

Ok, I have come up with a few ideas as changes for the utilities and abilities that put you into stealth. Keep in mind that these are just ideas and Arenanet(if they were to go through with this) could change or tweak them at any time.

1. [Hide in Shadows] | A simple change for this would be to change the 3 seconds of stealth to 3 seconds of evading attacks.

2. [Shadow Refuge] | All they would really have to do with this is make it a circular [Smoke Screen] (it blocks projectiles in a line).

3. [Cloak and Dagger] | This would be very easy for them to fix as well, simply change the stealth part to something like “causes the target to bleed”.

4. [Blinding Powder] | What they can do here is remove the stealth part of it, and have it blind multiple times instead.

5. Finally the downed ability (smoke bomb I think it’s called) would not have to be changed because it is only available while you are downed and it’s only for 3 seconds anyway.

And here I’m going to list the traits, and possible things they can do with them:

“Descent of Shadows” “Release blinding powder when you take falling damage, take 50% less damage from falling.” If they were to change blinding powder as I said on number 4 above, then blinding powder would no longer stealth you so this problem would already be fixed.

“Last refuge” “Release blinding powder when you reach 25% health” This is the same explanation as “descent of shadows” above.

“Instinctual response” “Use feathers to stealth you when you take more than 10% of your total health in damage with a single strike” A simple change for this would to have you instead shadowstep away instead of going into stealth.

“Hidden Thief” “stealing gives you 2 seconds of stealth” Since “Steal” would be replaced with “Cloak” then you would have to change this trait to perhaps augment “Cloak” like.. “Using cloak gives you 10 seconds of swiftness” something like that.

EDIT: Accidentally double-posted number 5.

your wording is very matter-of-fact. you sound like a teenager that wants his way. if you don’t like how the thief works, then find a different class, or a different game. suggest additions to the class that do not completely alter the foundations of its gameplay.

You can have perma Stealth when my Warrior can have perma Protection.

i.e never

well you should be even glad that thieves here only have 3 seconds stealth and has like 4 seconds debuff when unstealthed, unlike wow and other games where classes like thieves/assasins/rogues have INFINITE stealth and can troll you in arena such as WoW.

eindigen.1275:

—

Let’s talk about the state of Thieves at the moment as well. If asked, many players would say that Thieves dominate the PvP environment as a whole. Their damage output and ability to reset a fight whenever they choose gives them extreme versatility. While this could probably use some toning down, especially to the amount of stealths we see during combat (which can turn into stealth-spam rather than a finesse to managing skills), I would think it’s safe to say Thieves are in a pretty good spot. Overall, they have a niche playstyle, particularly for those who like stealth-heavy combat and the ability to pick and choose which fights they want to start, and which fights they want to finish. Needless to say, it’s an acquired taste, and it feels pretty different compared to many stealth-heavy classes from other MMORPGs, but the Thief in this game has a unique style to it that fits with the style of combat the game is aiming for.

—

How about this to “fix” the thief. What’s the problem with the thief in combat? The fundamental issue? Not that you can’t hit them, but that you can’t see them and you automatically disengage (i.e. ‘untarget’) them.

So simple change.. When a thief goes into stealth they do not become de-targeted. Stealth in this case acts more like ‘protection’ that other classes get, for X seconds, and it represents how tough they are to see, but really, unless they use something like a “smoke bomb” which should blind them as well, you really wouldn’t have someone disappear right in front of you.

So now we’re balanced. the Thief would have something more akin to an ‘evade’ ability, that would immediately stop all attacks against them, but other players would be able to engage them again as soon as this wore off. I think that most of the people I know that complain about stealth would find this agreeable.

Now something I think is worse than stealth is combo activating that “jump 300 feet” ability they have and they can run at full speed. Really? Who thought that was balanced. They can literally jump out of range of a rifle and longbow in less than a second and then repeat this to get even more distance ahead in less than 5 seconds (seemingly, I didn’t clock it).

So how do you fix that? Hmm, put the ability on a 30-45 second timer to represent it’s power as an opener, but don’t allow it to be abused in PvP or WvW.

Other alternatives include:
- Let it be spammed but shorten the distance to maybe 450 or at most 600, enough to get out of melee but give ranged attackers a chance to continue the assault.
- Immediately lower the run speed to non-modifiable (no buffs, food, etc would affect) base combat speed for 10-15 seconds after the leap. This would represent the leg stain it takes to leap 30’+ through the air at once. (* the same could be done with the warrior or any other class that has a ‘leap’ ability*)

I don’t want to ‘break’ the Thief class, but bring them more in line with the capability’s of other classes. They seem to have more than their share (compared to some who have practically zero) of disengage abilities, ro we want to make sure they are balanced in the scope of the game. The two examples above are the most unbalanced int he class I think.

Not meaning ti hijack the thread, the post I quoted illustrated fairly well how unbalanced perma-stealth would be for a thief otherwise and no disagreement from me for that.

Lanthrudar.1437:

I don’t want to ‘break’ the Thief class, but bring them more in line with the capability’s of other classes. They seem to have more than their share (compared to some who have practically zero) of disengage abilities, ro we want to make sure they are balanced in the scope of the game. The two examples above are the most unbalanced int he class I think.

It maybe has to do with the fact thieves got the worse HP pool in the game, only matched by elementalists and guardians which both have a much easier access to toughness type buffs, protection and spamable heals making them the two most common bunker classes.

Thief is the squishiest class in the game by far.

Lanthrudar.1437:

eindigen.1275:

—

Let’s talk about the state of Thieves at the moment as well. If asked, many players would say that Thieves dominate the PvP environment as a whole. Their damage output and ability to reset a fight whenever they choose gives them extreme versatility. While this could probably use some toning down, especially to the amount of stealths we see during combat (which can turn into stealth-spam rather than a finesse to managing skills), I would think it’s safe to say Thieves are in a pretty good spot. Overall, they have a niche playstyle, particularly for those who like stealth-heavy combat and the ability to pick and choose which fights they want to start, and which fights they want to finish. Needless to say, it’s an acquired taste, and it feels pretty different compared to many stealth-heavy classes from other MMORPGs, but the Thief in this game has a unique style to it that fits with the style of combat the game is aiming for.

—

How about this to “fix” the thief. What’s the problem with the thief in combat? The fundamental issue? Not that you can’t hit them, but that you can’t see them and you automatically disengage (i.e. ‘untarget’) them.

So simple change.. When a thief goes into stealth they do not become de-targeted. Stealth in this case acts more like ‘protection’ that other classes get, for X seconds, and it represents how tough they are to see, but really, unless they use something like a “smoke bomb” which should blind them as well, you really wouldn’t have someone disappear right in front of you.

So now we’re balanced. the Thief would have something more akin to an ‘evade’ ability, that would immediately stop all attacks against them, but other players would be able to engage them again as soon as this wore off. I think that most of the people I know that complain about stealth would find this agreeable.

Now something I think is worse than stealth is combo activating that “jump 300 feet” ability they have and they can run at full speed. Really? Who thought that was balanced. They can literally jump out okittenrange of a rifle and longbow in less than a second and then repeat this to get even more distance ahead in less than 5 seconds (seemingly, I didn’t clock it).

So how do you fix that? Hmm, put the ability on a 30-45 second timer to represent it’s power as an opener, but don’t allow it to be abused in PvP or WvW.

Other alternatives include:
- Let it be spammed but shorten the distance to maybe 450 or at most 600, enough to get out of melee but give ranged attackers a chance to continue the assault.
- Immediately lower the run speed to non-modifiable (no buffs, food, etc would affect) base combat speed for 10-15 seconds after the leap. This would represent the leg stain it takes to leap 30’+ through the air at once. (* the same could be done with the warrior or any other class that has a ‘leap’ ability*)

I don’t want to ‘break’ the Thief class, but bring them more in line with the capability’s of other classes. They seem to have more than their share (compared to some who have practically zero) of disengage abilities, ro we want to make sure they are balanced in the scope of the game. The two examples above are the most unbalanced int he class I think.

Not meaning ti hijack the thread, the post I quoted illustrated fairly well how unbalanced perma-stealth would be for a thief otherwise and no disagreement from me for that.

leaving the target on the thief? really? that completely defeats the purpose of the stealth.

blakkrskyrr.7413:

here is a very good thief at work. it is a very energetic play style and is very effective. the class doesn’t need a revamp. if you prefer WoW’s cloak and dagger approach, go back to it. This is about acrobatics, movement, and timing. oh, and no small amount of skill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijSwQDgfUyE

If you are volunteering to pay a 15 dollar a month sub for me, than sure I will go back to it. If not, then your point is entirely invalid.

blakkrskyrr.7413:

leaving the target on the thief? really? that completely defeats the purpose of the stealth.

Really? And here I thought the idea of stealth was to break combat for them and give them the option to set up the next attack or run away.

Can any other class cause an attacker to lose them as a target with a class mechanic? If not, then why do we allow if for thief? Doing what I suggested above would still aloow both items mentioned:

A. set up next ‘sneak’ attack
B. run away if needed with a good head start too

Heck, you could even add a third:

C. Cause the use of stealth to “break” them out of combat

But if you added option C you’d have to basically ensure they only had 1 stealth ability in the entire class and it be on a 30+ second timer. Otherwise you’d have the weapon swapping, ‘teleporting’ thieves that are in WvW now and it would be even more broken because they’d get auto-health regen, etc.

stof.9341:

Lanthrudar.1437:

I don’t want to ‘break’ the Thief class, but bring them more in line with the capability’s of other classes. They seem to have more than their share (compared to some who have practically zero) of disengage abilities, ro we want to make sure they are balanced in the scope of the game. The two examples above are the most unbalanced int he class I think.

It maybe has to do with the fact thieves got the worse HP pool in the game, only matched by elementalists and guardians which both have a much easier access to toughness type buffs, protection and spamable heals making them the two most common bunker classes.

Thief is the squishiest class in the game by far.

That’s what Toughness/Vit armor is for. They use the stealth to get into close range and then pound people down quick. You think the thief is squishy? Try Ranger once someone can sneak close. The Ranger has exactly two stun breaks and the fastest recharge is 30 seconds on one.

Again, keeping the target but allowing them to be stealthed would let them set-up or run as needed, either that or ANet needs to revamp their entire targetting system, because frankly when it’s mob on mob, there’s no way to know where you will auto-target, and trying to click someone abusing culling and going invisible isn’t “skill” it’s poor class design mechanics.

If you think the ranger class is that bad, is nerfing the thief the solution or should you be asking for buffs instead?

Besides, Ranger got access to many survivability buffs like a passive stun protection trait (one CC every 90s), 20s of stability on an elite, 12s of stability with a trait, same trait allowing you a 6s of invulnerability skill on top of a 6s “all damage transfer to pet” shout.

Hey, you say none of that matters much agaisnt a zerg in WvWvW? Well maybe but WvW isn’t meant to be balanced much anyway. Nothing else than stealth works agaisnt zergs and it’s not a situation that warrants much balancing effort anyway.

In my opinion the current stealth style is kind of boring. We want an actual stealth class, not a wana-be one.

Brewergamer.8357:

In my opinion the current stealth style is kind of boring. We want an actual stealth class, not a wana-be one.

did you even watch some of that vid i posted? it was quite stealthy. if you want a stealthy thief, then there are ways of doing that. if you want an acrobatic thief that just runs and rolls all over the place, there are ways to do that. and the comment about the 15 dollar subscription is invalid, because a game is a game and class types differ between them. I hated playing a rogue in WoW. I was a hunter. A close combat hunter even. Rogues with that form of play was super boring to me.

blakkrskyrr.7413:

Brewergamer.8357:

In my opinion the current stealth style is kind of boring. We want an actual stealth class, not a wana-be one.

did you even watch some of that vid i posted? it was quite stealthy. if you want a stealthy thief, then there are ways of doing that. if you want an acrobatic thief that just runs and rolls all over the place, there are ways to do that. and the comment about the 15 dollar subscription is invalid, because a game is a game and class types differ between them. I hated playing a rogue in WoW. I was a hunter. A close combat hunter even. Rogues with that form of play was super boring to me.

Not really.. I cant just wait in stealth until someone is completely unprepared then attack full-force, most of that vid he was hiding behind buildings and stuff.

blakkrskyrr.7413:

Brewergamer.8357:

In my opinion the current stealth style is kind of boring. We want an actual stealth class, not a wana-be one.

did you even watch some of that vid i posted? it was quite stealthy. if you want a stealthy thief, then there are ways of doing that. if you want an acrobatic thief that just runs and rolls all over the place, there are ways to do that. and the comment about the 15 dollar subscription is invalid, because a game is a game and class types differ between them. I hated playing a rogue in WoW. I was a hunter. A close combat hunter even. Rogues with that form of play was super boring to me.

Spamming 2 second stealths during combat is not “stealthy”, they know you are there. Waiting in stealth until someone is completely unprepared then attacking is “stealthy”. If they won’t change thief they should at the VERY least add the option to be ACTUALLY stealthy.

Brewergamer.8357:

Spamming 2 second stealths during combat is not “stealthy”, they know you are there. Waiting in stealth until someone is completely unprepared then attacking is “stealthy”. If they won’t change thief they should at the VERY least add the option to be ACTUALLY stealthy.

An argument over what’s stealthy and what isn’t is an argument of semantics. In order to get to the root of the issue, you have to look at each person’s definition of what “stealthy” is.

Stealthy 1: Character stays hidden as long as he/she wants, only appearing when they want to be seen or if they are pulled out of stealth via attack. For name-sake, let’s call this “Rogue Stealth.”

Stealthy 2: Character disrupts the attack pattern of the enemy by jumping in and out of vision repeatedly to cause confusion and disorientation of the enemy. For name-sake, let’s call this “Subterfuge Stealth.”

Both of these are considered “stealth” because they use a mechanic which causes the character to go invisible, but the circumstances in which they are in and out of stealth are what differ.

Back to the point, a Rogue Stealth play style is a luxury, not a necessity. What I mean by this is having permanent stealth is fun to play and an interesting mechanic, but there’s a time and a place for it. The combat mechanic in this game doesn’t really fit around having Rogue Stealth because most features and purpose in this game comes from being seen and how to deal with it.

Let me explain further. There are a few notable game-play “identities” happening to give Guild Wars 2 a sense of balance, fun, and challenge.

The sense of balance comes from all professions having a close-to-equal playing field. This very idea starts with “Players can not be permanently invisible.” Okay, so for a stealth profession, how do you tie that in to this sense of balance? The answer is to give them multiple ways to initiate stealth, but each of these ways has a certain utility. This way, players are not on an uneven playing field because one can stay hidden forever while the other person is always susceptible to attack and prying eyes. Again, that way of thinking is a luxury, not a necessity.

So where’s the fun? The ability to jump in and out of stealth as frequently as a Thief does not exist in another class. The closest would be a Mesmer, but the functionality is very limited (long cooldowns) and used for a different mechanic (escapes – not initiation). You play a Thief in this game because you enjoy being sneaky, stealthy, and slippery. Again, I should bring up Subterfuge vs. Rogue stealth.

How about the challenge? Thieves require know-how on when to use their stealth and when not to. When to initiate and when not to. Due to a limited amount of stealth, Thieves need to use their wits in order to outplay an opponent, not out-brawn. Since you played a Rogue before, you should be very familiar with the Rogue being able to outwit AND out-brawn the opponent thanks to their extremely versatile tool kit. This is something not many other classes had. Usually, for balance, you’re given one or the other, and that’s a mechanic that was not repeated in this game.

Since there really is no way to just alter your mindset to have you enjoy the class with just a flick of a switch, I’ll leave you with this:

While Guild Wars 2 offers a variety of play styles with their 8 (very different) professions, and it offers even more variety within each profession itself, it is extremely difficult to cater to everyone’s wishes and desires. With the style of combat and the way exploring and coping with the game world behaves in this game, it is unlikely and unnecessary for a Rogue Stealth feature to exist or be super-imposed on the current Thief model. Unfortunately, this is the way the game and this class is. While there will be minor tweaks to numbers to ensure balance, a change as drastic as what was suggested would simply not happen this early into the game’s life cycle. I’m sorry to say, but if that kind of mechanic is the only thing you want from this game, it might not be the game for you.

However! I do encourage giving the other professions a test run – at least to around level 30. I started this game as a Thief and became disheartened by the features of the Thief I perceived to be as problems at the time. After playing other classes for a while, I found myself with multiple level 80s and as a Guardian main. It’s easy to shut yourself off to trying other things out because you “know” you like a certain way of doing things… but you might surprise yourself.

Either way, this thread was nice to start a discussion and see where people are at in their views of the class.

eindigen.1275:

Brewergamer.8357:

Spamming 2 second stealths during combat is not “stealthy”, they know you are there. Waiting in stealth until someone is completely unprepared then attacking is “stealthy”. If they won’t change thief they should at the VERY least add the option to be ACTUALLY stealthy.

However! I do encourage giving the other professions a test run – at least to around level 30. I started this game as a Thief and became disheartened by the features of the Thief I perceived to be as problems at the time. After playing other classes for a while, I found myself with multiple level 80s and as a Guardian main. It’s easy to shut yourself off to trying other things out because you “know” you like a certain way of doing things… but you might surprise yourself.

Either way, this thread was nice to start a discussion and see where people are at in their views of the class.

Yea, sadly I “know” I enjoy a stealthy-like playstyle which isn’t available in this game.. I like this game but that fact kind of bitters me to it knowing that I may never have the playstyle I enjoy in a game I enjoy. I’ve tried pretty much all other other professions and it’s just like “eh…” without a stealth class.

So here is what I’ve been thinking they should either 1. Add another class that is an “actual” stealth class or 2. Add the option to be “actually” stealthy as a thief. (of course meaning unlimited stealth out of combat.)

What I hate most on the thief is the lack of AoE damage. Sure you can do it but it is not that great (e. g. Shortbow or Pistols nothing)

Primary roll of thief is “stealth, mobility, high single target damage….”

Now, I think that its reasonable for this to mean a thief can get in, take out a target, and have a reasonable chance to get away.

As it is now I frequently see thieves taking on groups of 5 or more. This IMHO isn’t what they were built for.

MY suggestion?

1) UP thief DPS at cost of initiative

2) UP or ADD initiative cost for stealth skills
and/or
3) Slightly decrease the rate initiative is gained back.

This will put thieves in GREAT position to take out 1 or 2 targets but make it much more difficult to permastealth or popcorn stealth through a prolonged fight.

Kellnor.5428:

Primary roll of thief is “stealth, mobility, high single target damage….”

Now, I think that its reasonable for this to mean a thief can get in, take out a target, and have a reasonable chance to get away.

As it is now I frequently see thieves taking on groups of 5 or more. This IMHO isn’t what they were built for.

MY suggestion?

1) UP thief DPS at cost of initiative

2) UP or ADD initiative cost for stealth skills
and/or
3) Slightly decrease the rate initiative is gained back.

This will put thieves in GREAT position to take out 1 or 2 targets but make it much more difficult to permastealth or popcorn stealth through a prolonged fight.

Your server must have alot of bad players, because any group of 5 smart people is going to INSTANTLY stop what they are doing and IMMEDIATELY revive their downed teammate. The downed system is broken as well so if a thief can take out your entire group then you’re doing it wrong.

Thieves do not need to be entirely reworked… Learn the build, then build a counter. Really isn’t that hard to adapt and if you still find it impossible, ask thieves what counters them well or ask around town for an effective thief counter for their various builds. The only thing thief may need is a longer time between stealthing, but thats it. No shorter stealth, its short as kitten already, and no only out-of-combat stealth as that is just ridiculous. (Culling issue too but Anet is aware of it so no need to repeat it a million times)

NinjaEd.3946:

Thieves do not need to be entirely reworked… Learn the build, then build a counter. Really isn’t that hard to adapt and if you still find it impossible, ask thieves what counters them well or ask around town for an effective thief counter for their various builds. The only thing thief may need is a longer time between stealthing, but thats it. No shorter stealth, its short as kitten already, and no only out-of-combat stealth as that is just ridiculous. (Culling issue too but Anet is aware of it so no need to repeat it a million times)

Like I said to other people, read the entire post before you reply. I NEVER said this was overpowered, I said it was ridiculous and boring. Your entire point is invalid, I could care less about countering thieves because I play thief myself. I want a fun stealth class, not a mentally kitten stealth-spammer every 2 seconds.

Then don’t spam stealth every 2 seconds. Its called build differently. I use a cond with D/D, SB, and signet of malice and the only time you see me in stealth is to heal up a bit from that awesome trait in the shadow arts(Rejuvenating stealth I think it’s called). Your acting like stealth is the only thing thieves have to work off of.

Thief is fine how it is; It’s just not what you want. Try different builds and follow what the profession is asking you to do, rather than what you’re asking of it.

That’s all it comes down to. It isn’t, and won’t, be a WoW Rogue in every aspect, and expecting it to be will bog down your enjoyment of them. Let the class play how it is and you may come to enjoy it.

Or you might not – in which case, the class simply isn’t your cup of tea. That doesn’t mean it has to be changed.

NinjaEd.3946:

Then don’t spam stealth every 2 seconds. Its called build differently. I use a cond with D/D, SB, and signet of malice and the only time you see me in stealth is to heal up a bit from that awesome trait in the shadow arts(Rejuvenating stealth I think it’s called). Your acting like stealth is the only thing thieves have to work off of.

I don’t, I actually don’t even use stealth. Point is.. thief is supposed to be a stealthy class, yet the only way you can stealth is by spamming it every 2 seconds during combat. To me that’s no fun.

That’s your view, so try another class? Most thieves love their class for what Anet made them out to be. Thief isn’t a WoW rogue like many people stated…

Thief -is- a stealthy class, and the subterfuge style of “spamming it every 2 seconds during combat” is exactly how that’s represented. It’s a combat-stealth profession. One that’s rational in the sense of it being “Now you see me, now you don’t” where, by the time you do know where they are again, it’s with a blade halfway up your backside.

A good Thief will still be able to ambush from the shadows as a combat-opener, but it actually takes talent because if you want to make your approach from stealth, you gotta LEGITIMATELY HIDE first, and then pop a stealth ability when you know you’ll have enough time to reach them. It’s not EZMODE unlimited stealth because it’s less believable, not as fun, and admittedly even a little broken in a context with little in way of actual detection. This method actually has exciting, fast pacing.

So, again, you’re just asking the class to be what it’s not. There’s nothing wrong with it; Only what you’re expecting from it.

IVeracityI.8936:

Thief -is- a stealthy class, and the subterfuge style of “spamming it every 2 seconds during combat” is exactly how that’s represented. It’s a combat-stealth profession. One that’s rational in the sense of it being “Now you see me, now you don’t” where, by the time you do know where they are again, it’s with a blade halfway up your backside.

A good Thief will still be able to ambush from the shadows as a combat-opener, but it actually takes talent because if you want to make your approach from stealth, you gotta LEGITIMATELY HIDE first, and then pop a stealth ability when you know you’ll have enough time to reach them. It’s not EZMODE unlimited stealth because it’s less believable, not as fun, and admittedly even a little broken in a context with little in way of actual detection. This method actually has exciting, fast pacing.

So, again, you’re just asking the class to be what it’s not. There’s nothing wrong with it; Only what you’re expecting from it.

So vanishing from thin air every 2 seconds makes more sense? roflmao.

raubvogel.5071:

What I hate most on the thief is the lack of AoE damage. Sure you can do it but it is not that great (e. g. Shortbow or Pistols nothing)

The main issue here is that thief is not “stealthy” as it should be.

In honesty the main thing that makes me not want to play this game is knowing that there is no stealth class.

For a class to have perma stealth it would have to be like eve in lol imo. She get a ring around her and everything that comes inside that ring can see her and if she then enters combat she loose stealth. I hope a profession like that comes later when culling is fixed, and it won’t be op because you will be visible if u come too close so u can’t sneak past mobs but u can follow a player.

Kormona.7156:

For a class to have perma stealth it would have to be like eve in lol imo. She get a ring around her and everything that comes inside that ring can see her and if she then enters combat she loose stealth. I hope a profession like that comes later when culling is fixed, and it won’t be op because you will be visible if u come too close so u can’t sneak past mobs but u can follow a player.

I’ve never played LoL so yea, I’d just rather have unlimited stealth so I can attack when an enemy is unprepared or simply attack whenever I want to. See right now let’s say I’m in WvW, I see a player in the distance but he see’s me too so he runs away into a keep. If I had stealth I could simply follow him until he was far away from any keep or allies then attack. Which in my opinion is the funnest part of a stealth class, sadly not possible in this game.

Bye then.
Seriously you call lurking about with complete immunity to everything and moving at half or slower speed and trying to catch random stray targets more fun than the fast paced, acrobatic, backstabbing, stealthing, smokebomb, teleporting gameplay of the current thief?
Bye.

I doubt the devs would even consider this. I’d probably quit if the play-style of Thief was changed. I don’t really care if thieves or any other class vs class isn’t 100% balanced. Or that a thief can’t stand toe-2-toe with a mob like a warrior can.

Most of the class-complaints/boost-requests I’ve read on the boards are pretty pointless.

I have a blast with my thief, and I die frequently at times too. C’est la vie.

NO DO NOT CHANGE THE THIEF

Permastealthing would require a rework of dungeons. The last thing you want is to give players the ability to bypass everything but final bosses. See stealth would have to become part of the game for most dungeon mobs.

With Permastealth, world completion would be trivial. Harvesting in high level areas would be trivial. A big part of the challenge of some POI and Vistas is just getting there. Permastealth would remove that challenge totally.. for one class.

I played an Assassin in EQ2 for 8 years. Even with all the see-stealth mobs in that game I had a tremendous advantage in exploration, harvesting, by passing content etc. Everquest tried to level that by letting everyone use stealth/invis totems, do we want all that brought here too? I don’t.

IMO Anet did a good job of bringing in a Rogue class and not succumbing to the same tired old stealth mechanics common to most games. I much prefer the fast and agile “tricky” brigand type fighter as compared to being just another clone rogue/assassin class.