Guild Wars 2

Hello, how is everyone? So, this may be long, but I was hoping to get a discussion going on the Guild Wars 2 combat system. First off, I want to ask each of you, have you played Guild Wars one? Did you like the combat system? Myself, along with a growing number of other people are tossing around the idea of creating a community (not necessarily a guild) dedicated to creating new skills for Guild Wars 2, in hoped that we can perhaps, one day persuade ArenaNet to overhaul the skill system and make it faster paced, and more customizable.

Many of us find that, the sheer lack of skill choices is saddening. We understand that it is for balance, but the way in which combat has been designed, is a very slow, tedious form of gameplay, mainly in PvP.

Now, before anyone starts to get upset and telling me “How dare you insult these great people,” I’d like to ask you to kindly read over the points that I list, and provide your opinion in an educated, thoroughly thought out manner. Thank you.
Point One: Skill Volume. Compared to Guild Wars 1, Guild Wars 2 has approximately 1/11th of the skills available to a player to use for combat. Guild Wars 1, had around 281 skills available to choose between to make your build. Guild Wars 2 has around 33 Utility/Elite Skills, total. Around 29 weapon skills, and around 10 underwater skills. These numbers will all change based on your class, as is why I said ‘around.’
For demonstration purposes: If I want to be a Ranger with a sword, 22 of my skills are now unusable. I have 11 skills to choose from. For the rest of my life. 3 of my skills will never change. Ok, lets toss in a bow for my weapon swap: I now have 16 skills to play between. 8 of which will never change. So, I only can pick between 8 skills for the duration of my gaming experience… Ok, lets brighten my future up, shall we?
Take a look at this:
I have a period of 15 seconds in which I simply cannot heal, at all. During which time, I have very few ways of negating damage. Assuming I am melee, I have only one option. Dodge, or evade. With +50% endurance regeneration, it takes me 8 seconds to recharge my bar enough for one dodge roll. It takes me 2 seconds to deplete it, effectively dodging two attacks. So, adding it all up. In that 15 second window, I can potentially dodge 3 attacks. Assuming I still have my sword out, I have two skills which allow me to evade my foe, now that I have depleted my endurance. One has an 8 second recharge, the other, 15. I can now dodge around 5 attacks. So that is actually is pretty balanced thus far, right?
Lets look at this: While I dodge, I am being forced to move, even if just by a tiny bit, away from my foe. Being melee, I am now taking damage with my output being zero.

In my personal opinion, I feel like melee is underpowered, but that is up for grabs for anyone. I feel like, if I don’t want to be running or kiting 60-70% of the time, I absolutely must be ranged… I would like to see a discussion start about who feels that Ranged is a must for high, constant damage output.
Dodging and Evading: Now, you will notice that I did not throw in a comment about my pet? Well, I am facing a ranger. He also has a pet. Now, the builds that we use can slightly alter the damage being done, but in general, my damage is significantly lower, since the time spent dodging, is time spent now doing damage. Especially if I am pushed back while activating my healing skill.
The main thing I’d like to note was that you could dodge and evade in Guild Wars 1, it wasn’t as beautiful, but it existed. Some skills gave the effect, but what I’m talking about is strafing. If a ranger had a bow, or you were being wanded, or (lol) Flared, etc, you could watch your foe and move out of the way. You could do this as much as you pleased. Forcing your enemy to be TACTICAL, by either snaring you, moving closer etc. YOUR downside was that, most skills cannot be activated while moving. Guild Wars 1, was a very complex, tactical combat mmorpg. It required thought of when, where and how you were going to kill your foe. You had to pay close attention to who and what was around you, how to counter skills, how to snare defensive opponents and how to unsnare or protect yourself. Myself, and at least the others that I have talked to, feel like Guild Wars 2 is a lot of kiting, a lot of time spend, not really doing much of anything productive. Now, that is all a matter of personal opinion, and I would really love to see this thread take off and have everyone talk productively about their standpoint on the subject.
Breaking things down even more.
The roles of Damage, support, control. Guild Wars 1, I can run rupt, condition, pure damage, I can be a Touch Ranger, Dagger Ranger, Thumper, Beastmaster, Barrage/Aoe, Spear Pressure, Trapper… the list goes on. Other professions have far greater role spreads. As a Ranger, I could utilize nearly any weapon in the game, effectively. Maybe not a 40/40 set, but I could rock nearly anything else.
In Guild Wars 2, I get 3 skills that never change. My Elite, most likely, will change very infrequently. My heal, for the most part, will stay the same. Mainly depending on whether I want self, or AoE stationary heals. Chances are, I have the same skills as a large majority of everyone out there. Sure, my stats change. And? Where is my customization? Where is MY build? My gameplay as a melee is literally 111111111111 2 3 11111111111 4 111 5 6789 0 111111. (kitekitekitekitekite)
Point Two: Traits. “Guild Wars 1 didn’t have traits; they balance the game and make so many more builds possible.” False. Guild Wars 1 has Attributes, which held multiple roles. Stats. You want weapon damage/aka power? Up your Marksmanship, Spear Mastery, or Beastmaster. 3 Different weapons. Similar to Gw2 right? 3 Weapon sets. You can change weapons in combat in Guild Wars 2. AWESOME! (No sarcasm.) Ok, so. I put points into Spear Mastery, which are equivalent of Power + Precision. 30 to Marksmanship in Guild Wars 2. Points into Beastmastery, which is also Power + Precision for me. Because I like high risk, high reward builds.

Point Three: Skill recharge. Because of the sheer number of skills in Guild Wars 1, I am going to build my estimate off of different skills used in more common templates, in order to build a recharge estimate. All skills from randomly selected builds, crip shot, FA mm, Beastmasters, sins, WoH monks, etc were used as an estimate. Roughly 80 skills were averaged, including some with a recharge as high as 120. With nearly all high recharge skills lasting 1-30 seconds past recharge time. Making the recharge basically count as 0, unless you are rupted. My skill recharge total for Guild Wars 1, is 12. If I average all of the ranger utility skill recharges, it is 50 seconds. That is nearly a full minute of doing nothing. Way too long for my tastes, as it makes me get bored of a fight very quickly. For my weapon skills, an average of 11 seconds. 61 seconds of recharge. Now, compare that. That’s 5x longer in Gw2. 5x slower combat. My combat is a crawl, with broken knee caps and wrists, compared to Guild Wars 1.
It really bothers me how simplified the combat has become. I understand wanting to balance it, to make it more casual. But if I wanted it to be this casual, I’d play some free-to-play 2D game like runescape or Gaia. I love ArenaNet because of it past game, Guild Wars 1. I could replay that game, with countless skills and never get bored. I could always invent, explore, create new builds. New ways to wreak havoc or support my allies. In Guild Wars 2, I feel stale, dead. I won’t even talk about the Renown hearts and map exploration much, and how after people beat the story, PvE will die… I’ll type up another thread eventually….
Anyways, please discuss this with me, and with each other. I will do my best to get back to everyone between my work schedule. For those of you who are interested, please check out the community that I am trying to build: Yes, technically it’s listed as a Guild, but that’s not what it is. It’s a community for creating theoretical skills in hopes that as a whole, we might be able to persuade ArenaNet to overhaul its skill system and possible add new skills to its ever so small list.
http://advocatesforimprovedpvp.guildportal.com/
Although many believe that GW2 will never change because it is already launched, we beg to differ. We believe that with a large enough community, ArenaNet will take heart to the ideas that we have to offer. It is up to us, as a community to create and encourage new skills, to inspire others to contribute and join us, as well as to introduce and influence ArenaNet to add skills identical, or similar to the ones we create here on the forums. There is no harm in creating a skill. It takes very little time and potentially could be made real if you help support this community. Help us to grow, help us to thrive. Help us make a better Guild Wars 2 for all.
As an ending statement, I would like to say that I do, dearly love ArenaNet. I’ve played Guild Wars 1, dedicated, as in, it’s the only game I ever played every single day, in and out and never quit. I’ve played it since release, and still play it to this day. It set the standard for games so high for me, that I am spoiled skill wise. (Otherwise I wouldn’t be here whining, now would I? xD) Thank you for the fantastic game that you’ve made in the past. I love the artistic elements of Guild wars 2, the NPC dialogue is HILARIOUS, the story is captivating, the graphics beautiful, and they don’t murder my laptop. But, sadly, I have to say that if the skill system does not change. I will be giving up Guild Wars. I have already grown bored of the skill system, and other than the Storyline, PvE holds nothing of great interest to me other than lore and

npc dialogue. The events are repetitive, the combat slow. People tell me to “go back and play Guild Wars 1 if you love it so much…” To tell you the truth, I log in every day, go to Fort Aspenwood and sit alone… Wishing that that I could somehow, restore it to what it used to be. Random Arena is the only trace I have left of PvP. The place I hated to be, because of its countless trolls, and incompetent players. I now cherish it. It’s all that is left of a once great game; that and a few survivors and late-starters that cherish the glory that was, and will always be Guild Wars 1. That game has taken a place in my heart. In a weird, geeky way, it hurts knowing that I bought the collector’s edition of a game that I no longer enjoy playing. Especially, because as I kid, I used to dream of getting collectors of Guild Wars 1, but I could never do enough chores. 21 now, and I’m fine with being called a sissy. I come back from work, Parkour, w/e I may be doing, and I log onto Guild Wars and cry a little. Don’t let Guild Wars die. You made such a great skill system, don’t ruin it now…
Anyways. For those of you who have any spare time, or even for kicks: Please, go to the link I posted, and register. Create some random skills, help me build a large community, and possibly get things moving forward. It would me a lot to me, and I’m sure, many others. In no way does it negatively affect you; if anything, if somehow, ArenaNet catches this thread, my website, or I somehow build a community… They might just revamp the skills… And my childhood might come alive again.
Thank you to everyone who stayed through this whole thread, read my sappy love story and registered on the forums. Just made it yesterday, so, with luck, maybe it will grow.
And also, to those of you who respond productively, with more than the “You’re stupid, GW2 is awesome l2p” nonsense, thank you for being above the influence.
Here’s to a better Guild Wars 2!
Please feel free to contact me in game on Guild wars 1, or 2 (If and when I’m on) on my main: Lance Havenbay.

Sorry again for it being so longgggggggggg. xD /veryimportantsubject

Anndd I just realized I posted this in General and not Pvp/ >.> /needs to close multiple tabs and pay attention. My bad.

If i were to change the skills i would do it like this.

You still have 5 skill slot for each weapon set.

But each main hand would have 6 skills instead of 3, each off hand would have 4 skills instead of 2, and two handed weapons would have 10 instead of 5. So you have choices on which skills you would want to be placed in your 5 slots.

My main problem with the game at the moment lies in the lack of progression. It feels like GW2 was designed with the level cap at 30, and 50 more levels were added as an afterthought.

I’d like to see some unlockable weapons skills in the trait lines, and also improved traits. The traits in GW2 are extremely boring and not play-style altering at all. +33% bleed chance on critical is great and all, but it’s not changing the way I’m playing, is it?

How about having a trait that say, allows me to wield a two-handed weapon in each hand? Yeah, I know, I hate to use a WoW example but it’s a good’un! This could unlock a set of entirely new weapon skills you could use!

I kind of agree and disagree at the same time.
It’s unfair to compare GW1 with 2. I think the introduction of WvW made it impossible to keep the previous skill recharge times and combat speed in general (even now I found myself spiked to death a few times). The other major difference is the way death works. Even in sPvP it takes longer to get from A to B, especially in WvW.

But I too would like to see more customization (this will most likely be addressed via additional weapons and skills in future expansions), even if it’s only just choosing between two skills or two minor traits for a slot, that would at least feel that it’s not just a general build.

I agree with some parts, but not to the large extent that you want it at.

I agree that all weapons should have some base attacks that are shared among all the classes. I have no problem with that classes have special attacks for each weapon. However, it would be nice to choose out of the pool of basic and class based weapon attacks to choose from and assign. Personally I am really bugged by the fact that my Mesmer can’t swing a Greatsword. I would swap “3” for a basic swing. I might also swap “5”(knockback) for the GS rush. Having some extra choice would be a nice addition.

I don’t think GW2 needs all 1200? abilities that GW1. I think the number of abilities is fine. The Secret World has 500apx and they are all open over 8 slots. It’s highly tactical.

I’m not sure how I feel about 6 to 10 slots. I do feel 3 to be some what of a straight jacket. I think the Elite slot should be optional as Elite or normal.

Finally I think you need to accept that GW2 does not carry on an iteration like most console games do. Where as Call of Duty is designed to regularly have new iterations purchased. GW2 is clearly not the successor not was it meant to be. GW2 is not meant to make GW1 obsolete. GW2 is to provide a different experience in the GW universe. In another analogy Mario Galaxy does not obsolete Mario Kart. The experiences and audience are not meant to be entirely the same.

I understand your pain. You love GW, and unfortunately the population is dropping for GW2, but here your wanting just a improve GW1 and your not getting it. I know the pain of people not playing the game you love. I’m familiar with it :|

Good luck. I do think some weapon choices would be a great touch up, but that really is it mostly for me. Really, enjoy Mario Sunshine and Galaxy for the different experiences they bring to the franchise. Enjoy GW1 for it’s PvP and fantastic depth combat engine, enjoy GW2 for it’s DE and the feeling of a more active world.

I have one of each class.

Yes they all feel very generic and the main diference between them and the skills is animations. imho

Game is solo based for the most part,and the skill choices for weapon sets reflects this.

I have DPS Thief build,but it sees little action due to lowered survivability and the need to party up,so as to unload damage on mobs without being aggroed constantly.Wouldn’t be a problem if people actually partied,rather than soloed.

If I rebuild the thief for more survivability however,it then becomes more generic just like all my other class builds.

And this is just PVE I’m talkin about,really can’t see myself enjoying any form of PVP with the current setup.

Although I do understand the idea behind “a whole other game,” I do not believe that being different entitles [anything] to losing some of it’s most prominent, amazing components.

Being able to use any weapon in GW1, was in itself, a HUGE point of customization. I mean, take a look at this skill difference: (Keep in mind, you could use any weapon, and weapons were more to fine tune your stats, rather than skills in GW1.)
———————————————————————-
Assassin-
Spear: Crit Spear
Scythe: Crit Scythe
Staff: ShadowForm Nuker

Ranger-
Staff: Touch Ranger
Spear: Enraged Spear Chucker, Beastmater (Had to add what I use. xD)
Dagger: (Less effective but still used: Dagger Ranger)
Bow: Rupt, Condition.

Warrior-
Hammer: KD Warrior
Axe: Eviscerate
Dagger: Armor Penetrating
Spear: Spear Tank (Not sure of build name)
>You remember the Hamstorm?!

Dervish-
Dagger: (Mainly saw daggers in Speedclears)
Scythe: Enough said.
Staff: Pious Healer

Rit-
Dagger: Spirits Strength
Staff: Mannyyyy options
———————————————————————-
Those are just a few. Making all weapons available to all classes in gw2, all with unique skills would greatly improve play-ability. Giving us even THREE choices for each of the first 3 skill slots, per weapon type, would make the game SO much more diverse and enjoyable.

Also, generally speaking, I do not like the fact that, (at least most of what I’m seeing) your weapon determines your roll. That to me, is just a kick while down. The weapon should be the spice to your skill soup. Not a ready to serve pre-set that you can throw into a mircowave tournament time after time. The whole beauty of GW1 was cooking up your own skill bar, and NOT having to copy meta. With GW2, practically anything you CAN make, IS meta, or dang close to it.

Lowering skill recharge is another factor. Personally, I hate the long skill recharge of Gw2. I mean, that is up for grabs, but I would love to see shorter recharges, and maybe slightly less effective attacks.

In Gw2, I feel like the minion master being Echo Pblocked, but for every utility skill I ever use. Ever.

Lowering the skill recharge allows for more fun, less “hold on, my skill is recharging.” This would make movement even more important. The rate at which your skills recharge would make the damage overall about the same even with slightly less damage up front, because you are hitting more often. This also breaks you away from the vicious kiting cycle that I had seen/and experience in nearly every single pvp match to date.

The other thing: In no way am I saying that a huge skill list is necessarily for a great tactical, customizable game. Although, it does significantly help. I understand the need for balance, the need to keep the game fun and avoid constant build nerfs because people exploit them… What I AM saying, is that Gw2 severely lacks customization and can easily be done by allowing even just as little as 3 new skills into each of the first 3 slots. Give us more weapon choices, and the list skyrockets!

Here are some ideas:
Obtaining skill through PvE/perhaps already unlocked in PvP. Skills that are unlocked by exploring, participating in events, jumping puzzles, maxing titles, or dungeon completion.

Sword examples:
Frost Themed Chain – Shiverpeak Jumping Puzzle
[Focused on control.]
Griffon’s Sweep: Cripple foe 1s if hit from behind.
Dryder’s Defense: Strike foe, gain regeneration 1s if you have a condition.
Frostwurm’s Bite: Stab target foe, foe is chilled for 1 second.

Earth Themed Chain – Max Survivor Title
[Focused on… survivability!]
Melandru’s Strike: Stike foe, bleed 1s if foe has a boon.
Natural Strike: Strike foe again. Gain regeneration if you don’t have a boon.
Bulls Charge: Gain Swiftness 1s. Lung at foe and strike them.

Fire Themed – CoF Dungeon Completion
[Focused on damage.]
Drake’s Bite: Stab foe. Gain 1might for 1s.
Igneous Rage: Kick target foe, gain might. Resets if attack misses. Max stack of 5.
Hydra’s Bite: Lung at foe and strike them.

>I do realize these skill names are already in use. It is for demonstration purposes only. These are simply examples of skill chains that could be swapped out for personal preference in a variety of builds. Expand all 3 skills to this same effect, and you have a much wider playing field. The form in which the skill unlocks also makes it more enjoyable to go after titles. It is no longer such a hassle for grind. Now when you use your skills, you can be proud of them. You earned them. And although they do not make you better than anyone else, they do set you apart from the crowd, and allow you to have pride in your countless hours spend grinding.

Other skill ideas:
You know that fun maze in Lions Arch? The one with the Kookie pirate? How ghost-themed skills?

Shadow Themed Skills- Lions Arch Puzzle Completion
[Evasion based, these are ideas for the 2 skills after the chain. SWORD.]
Shadows Retreat: Strike foe and inflict chilled condition for 3 seconds, then evade back and gain stealth.
Unseen Fury: Become invisible for 4 seconds, gaining Fury(4s) and Quickness.(4s) This skill ends if you use a skill. -Long recharge-

What about a skill unlocked by performing a skill combo skill:
Shoot an arrow through fire! ->Unlock Burning Arrow
Now you can replace skill 2 or 3 when you would like.

Burning Arrow: Shoot a fiery arrow at target foe. Cause burning 2 seconds.

To promote more enjoyable end game gameplay, rather than someone creating a (Sorry, but STUPID) list saying that we should spend our entire time grinding for unimportant gear collections, useless titles or buy bags(no comment on that one…) or unlocking everything in the game. I’m sorry… but I’ve grinded enough for HoM 50/50 and it was not enjoyable. If I do something in any game, I want it to be enjoyable. So why not give us incentive, maybe use enjoy doing things, things that reward us!

Overview:
-Lower skill recharge to the same, or similar average of GW1. Reduce skill/attack damage.
-Add gear, or traits, or stats that allow for a larger endurance bar. (If needed, make it at an expense for damage.)
-Give at LEAST, the first 3 skill slots alternative skills choices that can help to customize our personal roles. Weapons should not tie us down to a specific role.
-Provide us with skills that we can casually unlock by playing the game in ways such as: Completing dungeons, earning titles, completing jumping puzzles, events, or even by using a skill combo!

I look forward to hearing your thoughts, and I do really appreciate the constructive commentary, for AND against the things that I bring up.

Please make sure to check back on occasion, as I will always be working hard to come up with ideas to make the game more enjoyable for all.

Thank you for reading!
-Please also check out the thread link in my signature, for a PvP format idea.

Lance, I must say that I completely agree with your view. Guild Wars 2’s combat is flat-out stale.

Guild Wars 2 needs to throw away the predetermined 5 weapon skills and needs to lower the cool down on utility skills.

As well, Traits need to dramatically change a character, not just augment with bonuses like +5% ranged damage, increased defense when you roll, etc. Currently, traits do little to change the play style of a character.

Throwing all characters into a blended role of DPS is also dumb. Because Arena.net wanted to destroy the need of finding healers and specific roles, they effectively destroyed all means of team composition. Some people may argue that this isn’t a bad thing, but in terms of Explorer Mode in dungeons, it’s a very bad thing. Explorer mode is going to require certain characters to go support, to go utility. Support is healing and damage negation (see: protection + healing monks), and the only class that does this effectively is Guardians.

In case you don’t see what I’m getting at, in the end all forms of “end game” (explorer dungeons) rely on the fact that you will need a specific team makeup, which means, eventually, that you will require plate-wearing melee players to take some damage, squishy ranged to DPS, and guardians to protect your allies. Sounds familiar?

Guild Wars 2 cannot escape the holy trinity in its current state. The only effective non-support-Guardian strategy is to all out DPS the boss and roll effectively. That’s it. Every form of defense (aside from rolling) is on a 40+ second cool down, and has an active time of no more than 5 seconds. It’s shallow, boring, and frustrating.

I want to see Guild Wars 2’s combat change. In it’s current installment, it’s just not fun to play.

This is my biggest problem with the game OP. It kills longevity.

As a note to my last statement, lowering damage and upping dodge/skill rate would, in my eyes, make dungeons a lot more manageable. Yes, it will still be a [HairyDolyak] to do, but you will be move often enough to avoid facing a mob and then have your skills [crab] out and recharge the whole length of the battle. Giving skills a faster recharge will not necessarily make the dungeons ‘easier’, but it will make them FAR more enjoyable. Far more classes will be able to utilize the dodge mechanic, or skills that provide similar bonuses/heals, allowing them to stay alive longer.

It is painful to know that doing a dungeon undoubtedly means ending up in a fight where you only have several skills recharged, and enemies have an endless supply of high damage, large AoE, CC, etc.

If my skills recharged faster, I could:
-Heal more often.
-Dodge more often
-Make better use of my surroundings, because I would not die the second I got into combat.

Being melee, it is especially true. You are going to get hit. You are going to get hit hard. If you enjoy Dungeons, dungeons, although still enjoyable for some, generally speaking, give a worst time to the guys closest to the enemies.

People focus too much on “buffing melee.” You don’t need to tank them down and make them invincible. You need to give melee more flexibility, more movement. OR, you can simply reduce recharge and open up greater survivability and playability for ALL classes, in ALL levels of the game, without overpowering anything. Everyone would be on equal levels now, and combat would be much faster.

Now, if we applied that to dungeons, do I still think they would be overpowered?

Yes and no. Assuming the dungeon monster skills recharge equal to player skills… It would not be any less that it already is.

Then what would it do? If nothing else, give you the feeling that you are doing more than sitting like a angry child and throwing sand at everything. Faster skill charge to me means that, if you pay close attention, you have more chances to dodge. Proper placement in your surroundings, means that you can be far enough away from some npcs to avoid their attacks all together. Faster skill recharge means faster re-positioning.; I believe that is the main cause of failure in dungeons. You get mobed, and you automatically have no dodge left. No heals left, no evades left. …you run slower when in combat ?(????)? and you are just a sitting duck waiting to get pummeled. If I can at least move away from that mob, EVEN IF INTO THE BACK, I can distance myself from some damage, and FLANK the foes. Which btw, is a tactic, and would be much more appropriate in dungeons if you actually were allowed the opportunity to quickly move around the battle, positioning yourself in important locations.

Same being said to WvWvW. Quick skill recharge would, (sadly not fix the KD, Immobilize, Stun spam) but would make combat feel a lot more like combat.

As you can tell, I am not the biggest fan of the current pvp state, but I do HIGHLY enjoy WvWvW. There is a major thrill factor in it. Give me faster skill recharge and oh man. I will play that my entire life.

The number one thing I see: You encounter a mob knowing that, should you confront any portion of it, the second you get near it, you will exhaust all important skills related to survival in about 10 seconds, and then spend the other 2 minutes hobbling away, crippled, unable to heal, dodge, evade. Then you die.

If my skills recharged fast, exactly like a dungeon, I could maneuver better, place myself behind targets, making some of their skills miss, increasing my chance of survival. Making myself far more valuable as a person, rather than relying an mobbing to accomplish things.

To Izman, I totally agree about the dps thing. Honestly, I’m seeing that if I tank down even a little, it makes a big difference on whether or not you win. Sure, both of your skills are now recharging, but you can take more damage. So you are ahead of the game. That’s just my personal opinion, and not something a really care about at this point. It is mi·nute in comparison to the horrible slow skills…

I’m undecided on the Holy Trinity. I mean, everything in life requires a little of everything. But… If Arenanet was to really try to step away from the Trinity, their first move is going to have to be lowering the skill recharge. Because with such a high recharge, the gameplay becomes stagnant, and is no longer a game of skill. It is now a horribly recreated trinity, using makeshift roles that are meant to be multipurposed, but cannot hold together properly.

To be able to adapt to combat, we need to be able to react quickly. We cannot do so if we spend 2-minutes waiting for our skills to recharge. It takes less than 10 seconds to die.

If Arenanet doesn’t take care of this, I honestly see dungeons becoming nothing more than an ugly trinity. PvE seems to be partially unaffected, because lets face it. PvE is easy as eff. The entire game was a glorified walk in the park, imo. I never had a challenge. I not once lost an event, unless it was a group event that I tried to solo. The events do not change, blah blah blah, different thread. I’ll post it when I finish writing up all the flaws. >.>

Please let us customize buttons 1-5… give each weapon around 8 or 10 attacks, and let us select which to use for buttons 1-5, similar to how we choose skills for 6-10… That would make combat ALOT more dynamic and interesting as we would continually be searching for how to max our dps against different types of enemies/situations… giving us a static 1-5 means we have nothing to do once we figure out how to maximize dps since nothing can ever change…

jayderyu.3751:

I agree that all weapons should have some base attacks that are shared among all the classes. I have no problem with that classes have special attacks for each weapon. However, it would be nice to choose out of the pool of basic and class based weapon attacks to choose from and assign. Personally I am really bugged by the fact that my Mesmer can’t swing a Greatsword. I would swap “3” for a basic swing. I might also swap “5”(knockback) for the GS rush. Having some extra choice would be a nice addition.

I think I am a little confused on what you said, it seems conflicting. Please clarify about weapon skills.

What I am saying it that each class will still have unique skills. Ranger sword skills will always be different that, say, Guardian sword skills. What I was saying though, is that you should have more choices. Not just 3, set in stone. I want to be able to pick which unique skills go in those slots.

Make sense?

I don’t know what to say about your post. I played GW1 and understand what you are talking about, yet the fact remains that when I played (as warrior) I never used some skills, moreover all the warriors I saw were using my same build. I can’t say I have the same feelings as you regarding GW2, I love it frankly. What i can mention is that the general mechanics of the game (lack of direct healing and such things) make your idea of having cookie cutter (high risk high reward) builds very incompatible. Therefore long cooldowns are needed so that you can’t go around bursting down anybody you meet. Maybe you can burst down someone, but then you have a period where you have to play it safe or smart because CDs are up. Pure classes are a thing of the past I think and you could do glass cannon specs but it won’t be as effective as before.
It all comes down to what I have been saying in many posts like this, adapting to a new game, not making the devs adapt the game to you. Do I think we still need more utility skills, why not? I miss I will avenge you! so much. They could implement them in the future, we will see. Still you only have 3 utility skills to choose, can’t use more than that. Even if they give you the 280+ skills to choose from you can use 3. I think maybe builds now are different than before since you always have a heal skill up. and there are so few elite skills. Frankly I’d be happy if they give us more choice on the elite skills, or just let us use the elite slot with whichever skill we want.

I still like GW2 combat a lot more than GW1, still things can always be improved without making this a GW1 copy.

LanceHavenbay.2067:

To Izman, I totally agree about the dps thing. Honestly, I’m seeing that if I tank down even a little, it makes a big difference on whether or not you win. Sure, both of your skills are now recharging, but you can take more damage. So you are ahead of the game. That’s just my personal opinion, and not something a really care about at this point. It is mi·nute in comparison to the horrible slow skills…

I’m undecided on the Holy Trinity. I mean, everything in life requires a little of everything. But… If Arenanet was to really try to step away from the Trinity, their first move is going to have to be lowering the skill recharge. Because with such a high recharge, the gameplay becomes stagnant, and is no longer a game of skill. It is now a horribly recreated trinity, using makeshift roles that are meant to be multipurposed, but cannot hold together properly.

To be able to adapt to combat, we need to be able to react quickly. We cannot do so if we spend 2-minutes waiting for our skills to recharge. It takes less than 10 seconds to die.

If Arenanet doesn’t take care of this, I honestly see dungeons becoming nothing more than an ugly trinity. PvE seems to be partially unaffected, because lets face it. PvE is easy as eff. The entire game was a glorified walk in the park, imo. I never had a challenge. I not once lost an event, unless it was a group event that I tried to solo. The events do not change, blah blah blah, different thread. I’ll post it when I finish writing up all the flaws. >.>

For sure. In its current state, GW2 is an ugly trinity, and I agree with your thoughts on lower cool downs.

A summary post:

Currently, Dynamic Events and Story-mode Dungeons are working fine with the current system. Arena net pretty much accomplished this well with their standpoint on team composition (“players should bring the player, not the class”)

However, their view of the “end game” (Exploration Dungeons) is massively flawed. Skills take way too long to recharge, which means any means of defense (ex. Lightning Reflexes) can only be used once before falling over, etc.

A good team is one that lets health bars drop, and then picks up allies while fighting: creating nothing more than mindless zerg while people are on resurrection patrol.

An overview of my opinion:

- redo the weapon skill system: make the left side of the bar customizable
- lower cool downs on utility skills
- traits should dramatically change your character, not +5% damage
- increase the current weapon selection (no 2H axe? really?)

And a big one:

- Create roles. Skill, in RPGs is either based on tactics, character planning, team planning, or a mix of all three. Nothing else separates you from your opponent.

In Guild Wars 2, character planning is gone because everyone inherits the same weapons, and it’s painfully obvious which weapons should invest in power, or condition damage. Traits are just drops in the pond of your character, and don’t do much.

Team planning is gone. “Bring the player, not the class” sums it up perfectly— you should be able to clear a dungeon with 5 rangers just as effectively as a well-rounded team. Utilities are too inconvenient cool-down-wise to effectively craft teams around them, and enemies simply have too much life to reward coordination.

Example: Fresh level 30 with my brother and friend. We go into AC Story with the goal of pulling a heavy-trap initiation, to weaken the enemies and create some combo fields for allies. What happened? We set up traps, pulled mobs, and the full-trap combo literally scratched them. It just didn’t do enough damage, and the combo fields lasted for only a few seconds. All that planning did nothing, and the fight resumed into a health-bar-attrition war lasting a few minutes.

That leaves tactics, which, getting ahead of myself, was answered in the previous section as well. Planning is unrewarding.

How Arena.net intended the roles: DPS, Support, Control
How it ended up: DPS, DPS, DPS

I apologize for the rant, but these are my current thoughts about the game. Feel free to rake me and discuss.

I definately agree and really really hope Anet gets around to finishing traits up and adding more customization to weapon skills.

While I think that we could use a lot more skills and a generally more interesting combat system, I don’t agree with some of the things you have said.

First, melee is not underpowered. The potential damage for melee is ridiculously larger than ranged. There are more risks, but more rewards as well. In the end, everyone can switch to melee/ranged as they see fit. And traits are ridiculously superior to GW’s stat system, sorry, I don’t think we can even compare.

Hamstorm #1 build. Got my gold trim running that…

I am severely disappointed that GW2 isn’t really Guild Wars, in that it’s more like a WoW2.0 and they obviously want a more casual fanbase and just left all their GW1 fans in the dust. I can’t even stand how story works, much less combat. I want missions, and no BS 1 shot mechanics. I want at least half the trinity back (healing) tanking has never really made sense and I personally don’t like it, nor was it ever officially in GW1.

I absolutely loved heal and prot monking in GW1. I always hated healing in MMO’s butkittenGW1 did it right. It took skill, and had a very punishing resource system if you were bad, and that goes for all classes requiring energy management, except maybe warriors. Monking in GvG was some of the most exciting times I’ve ever had in a video game. Monks were completely removed in GW2, and there isn’t even GvG…. no resource system, except for initiative.

No combo’s for thieves like assassin’s in GW1, no captivating story, no direction, the lore doesn’t even seriously start until the 50’s then suddenly it starts telling you about the guild wars from GW lore etc… I’m like wtf, you waited until now? All I do is spam 3 on my condition thief it’s incredibly faceroll. I want missions back, not some 5 minute long borefest every time I jump into my personal story. And where are bonuses?

I can’t fight in my costumes? Great move… bravo. No capes? There is so much wrong with “Guild Wars 2” aka World of Guildwarscraft that it really pisses me off, now you got me on a rampage… gonna go play some hello kitty online to calm me down.

Oh also about evading and melee, I would love if using dodge while standing still would do a stationary dodge instead of defaulting to a backwards dodge.

Could have a nice stationary dodge animation.

There have been times where I have to dodge but can’t move too far w/o getting gibbed on a trap or aoe or something.

Rukia.4802:

And traits are ridiculously superior to GW’s stat system, sorry, I don’t think we can even compare.

I would have to disagree. The Attributes in Guild Wars 1 affected your weapon damage, (if not the right amount, you would do no damage. This was even more important when weakened, as you had 8 rather than 9 and thus your weapon was now basically a wet noodle instead of a dagger.) your defense, (shields with low requirements and max defense were highly prized because the attributes were important for the functionality of your build and not just a nice little extra tiny stat. Every point mattered.) Attributes affected everything from how often you criticaled, how much damage your skills did, how much they healed for, defended for, how much of a knock of you got for the energy cost, (Expertise) your chance to Double Strike, how much energy you had, extra heal power on spell cast, whether or not you gained energy when something near you died… The list goes on for a long time.

In Guild Wars 2, the trait system is nothing more than small cookie fed to you for adhering to your forcibly injected roll, created specifically based on what weapon you wanted to use. Because weapons have such few skills. Traits in guild wars 2 give you 20% recharge on skills of certain type, meaning you 90 second skill now takes 72 seconds. Aka, still only going to be able to use it once before you die, and is therefore pointless in most situations. Minor 5% damage increased, or 10% if you decide to not dodge anything. The trait system in Guild Wars 2 does not define you. It is like sticking a name tag on your character that already has his name over his head. You see him using a sword: Oh look, he is traited to use that sword. End of story. It is just a sword. You know what to expect.

In Guild Wars, I could be a necro with a sword a cold-rupt spam you, carry a caster-blade and be BiPing, etc etc. My traits were what defined me, and I could stretch my attributes to allow me to fix into several roles. I could smite and heal, tank and do damage… Look at the Backbreaker Sin. PERFECT EXAMPLE. Assassin, with a hidden hammer. His attributes are set up so he can now flop you on your butt and wail on you. Does Gw2 have that? Eff no. Traits are as pointless as me running Strength of Honor/Judges Insight in PvP in random area on a 4 man team. Sure, it makes a slight different. Does it ultimately matter? No, not really. +5 damage, Holy Damage and 20% armor penetration. Meh. Time to get a better build.

Eochaidh.4106:

I am severely disappointed that GW2 isn’t really Guild Wars, in that it’s more like a WoW2.0 and they obviously want a more casual fanbase and just left all their GW1 fans in the dust.

Growing up on Guild Wars, literally… I hate having to fully agree with this. My girlfriend and I look back on Guild Wars and regret that Guild Wars 2 came out… The game that was awesome is now desolate. The game that is nothing more than facerolling and (Yes) grinding, is everyone’s new big thing. The funny part about gw2, is the grind means nada. So you have a high pvp rank? And? I have a freaking celestial emote bro. You crafted Exotic armor? I saved the Temple of War. You beat storymode? I got Masters on all my missions, on HARDMODE. I did Winds of Change on hardmode, what did you do, Zerg an event? Cool. I honestly feel like Arenanet took everything that made Guild Wars great, and through it out the window like a friend embarrassed that he read smart-people books. Skills suck, storyline is awesome, but not really… immersive, PvP formats are effing TERRIBLE. What do we have? Freaking a glorified Random Area and an Alliance Battle with forts? (I do like WvWvW a lot. :P) Where is Fort Aspenwood? Where is Jade Quarry? Where is(yes, I enjoy:) Codex? Hero’s Ascent? You took out all the great modes of gameplay and substituted them with… sorry, crap. You have the right to rage. They dumbed down the game in a way that takes, MASSIVE effort. The call system is a perfect example. Whoever put it together, either did not look at Guild Wars 1, or simply put no effort into making the system matter. You pretty much need that red marker, because there is always a zerg fest. ANYWAYS.

Anet, you’ve killed part of my childhood. Please bring it back, or I will basically be the equivalent of Zhaitan, flying over your shores and giving you a hard time until you fix all these… Flaws. Things that really should have never happened. Trading post, fine. Server down, fine. Bugs, fine. Faceroll skill system, grindy endgame, PvE is a walk in the part, events are repetitive, (I feel like I’m doing MQsc everywhere I go.) no uniqueness as a player other than the dye system, you removed the !Local@Guild#Team$Trade chat function… Really? >.> The pets no longer evolve or grow, titles don’t mean squat anymore, the weapons are dull: I expected my diamond shield to look like a diamond shield from GW1, when really you just gave me a chunk of unpolished granite, you cannot ping builds properly anymore, wear a cape, or use any weapon you want… etc etc etc. What in the world were you thinking? I do have a hard time talking constructively sometimes, I want to Risen Rage you more often than not. But I do respect you, and your dedication in the past, and the business moves you’ve made in the present. But by taking all of these, (at least for GW1 Vets) common sense parts of the game out, you have lost a tremendous amount of my admiration and willingness to play the game. I will still play it, as I am interested in the lore and seeing how the world has changed… but I will only enjoy it about 1/12th of how much I still presently enjoy the original, even after 50/50 HoM. /sigh

Please make me a Guild Wars fan again. I’ve honestly told people not to buy Guild Wars 2 already. It has gotten that boring, that grind, that easy, that pointless to play… already. If you want me to be like I was with Guild Wars 1, and tell every single person I ever met to play your game, and spend my relaxation time playing it, make it better. Restore it’s glory. Your game is nothing more than a pretty chore. Like pulling weeds. And I play, in hopes of making my old garden look new again. Guild Wars 1 is now approximately the size of Gwen’s Garden. Guild Wars 2 is the Shiverpeaks; it could have been even more beautiful than Ascalon before the searing.

Knote.2904:

Oh also about evading and melee, I would love if using dodge while standing still would do a stationary dodge instead of defaulting to a backwards dodge.
Could have a nice stationary dodge animation.
There have been times where I have to dodge but can’t move too far w/o getting gibbed on a trap or aoe or something.

I suggest placing this is the ’Suggestion" or “Bugs” part of the forums.

I’ll add a quote of myself from another post to throw in my 2 cents. Keep in mind I do enjoy the game, but find this (and a few other things) very disappointing and quite a hindrance to really getting the most out of it:

On the second point about skills being boring, I have to kind of agree. Like I said, I enjoy the game and the combat, but there’s still a certain element of combat in the game being not much more than circle strafing and letting the game autoattack for you. It’s more true for some professions than others. This is very noticeable as I play with my various alts… some of them, like the thief, I can only play for an hour or two before I feel somewhat bored. However, once I do feel bored with it I am able to have fun logging into a second character and play with it for a bit – especially my engineer, which has one of the more complex skillsets.

Now contrast this to TOR, a game where I leveled 6 characters to max level, 6 more halfway or further, and on several of them I “grinded” out basically max level PvP gear (though I had too much fun doing so to call it grinding IMO). Even after doing the same quests 53 million times, I never got so bored with it I had to put it down except on my Vanguard – a class with a combat mechanic literally consisting of 2 buttons 90% of the time. I’m not sure, but I think my similar experience with this class and most of the GW2 ones is related to the fact that most of the GW2 classes involve only a few skills that you actually use most of the time with the rest being used here and there.

To Skolops, I agree. Don’t get me wrong. I do enjoy the game, but it is getting old reallllyyyyyyyyy fast. There is not nearly enough diversity, especially in end-game and PvP. There is no creativity, there is no sense of “this is my build.” I have specifically made several unique builds in Guild Wars, never used by anyone but me. See my image. Guild Wars 2 does truly involve not much more that kiting, and spaming skills. I mean, yes, you do have to move… I’m not saying you are just standing and pressing 1… even if at times that is what it is… The idea for the system is great, the execution of the system is poor, if not disgustingly lacking. I could farm faction on Guild Wars 1 and not get bored, because I could always make a new build. Even on VERY structured play-styles like SpeedClears, I would constantly make my own variant of the SC build. I made a MTsc ranger with the Elite Scavengers Focus, worked great! I enjoyed it, it was my own. Guild Wars 2? No matter where you are, you have the same skills as 3/4 the rest of the people with your profession. It is stupid.

Remember when people discovered quick weapon swapping? That assassin setup with backbreaker was just insane. Not even talking about the skill needed to have distracting shot on a monk to interrupt a mesmer annoying you. Things like that is what the true Guild Wars experience is about. The spirit of Guild Wars is creativity and strategic thinking, not hacking and slashing away with a generic build.

A really big part of this issue along with the low skill pool and removal of dual-classes is the removal of energy which removes a lot of strategical choices and the simplification of enchantments and hexes which removes a lot of complexity.

I can’t help but agree. See my thread for a similar take on why combat needs some work.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Autoattack-Isn-t-Fun-or-I-Miss-DPS-Priority-System

hi, im well, and yourself? i dont want the combat system changed. it’s great. im having a lot of fun. please dont try to design my game, i prefer ANet. thanks.

Draehl.2681:

I can’t help but agree. See my thread for a similar take on why combat needs some work.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Autoattack-Isn-t-Fun-or-I-Miss-DPS-Priority-System

pointless thread. you want core game design changed. you just need to go back to WoW if you miss dps priority, aka little-UI-picture-clicking. thats all it is.

“Don’t get me wrong. I do enjoy the game, but it is getting old reallllyyyyyyyyy fast. There is not nearly enough diversity, especially in end-game and PvP. "

this is purely your opinion, your preference. a few others may agree, but that doesnt mean the game requires any changes. i feel the opposite.

on my main (guardian), i have 3 builds that are “my own”, i.e. i havent seen them use by anyone else, theyre effective and i love them. i have another 3 generic builds that i use sometimes. so all in all, im playing around 6 different builds that are viable in both tpvp and dungeons. i love it. on my alt (mesmer), i use a GS/mantra build specced for long range sniping really. havent seen it used much, i feel attached to it, like its my own. i can just keep going. maybe because i like the combat, i feel attached to my builds.

as a side note, i dont understand how u can call the combat lacking and not even discuss combo fields. creating combos with your mates is like 40% of the combat. do you not understand that? if you dont like it, fine. but personally, it’s one of the best things to come to MMO’s in general.

To Nerva: That is fine, you are totally entitled to your opinion as well. I would like you to add constructive feedback though, rather than the generic: “It is great. Don’t listen to these whiners spiel.” And my opinion is based on the fact that I have played Guild Wars, full heartedly since it’s original release. I have earned 50/50 from playing rather than farming, (for the most part) and have PvPed every single day since release. In every form of PvP, in all roles except Dervish and Paragon. In comparison to Guild Wars 1, it is an utter and blatan fact that the skill system in Guild Wars 2 is terrible. It can be calculate by math, skill options, customization factors, weapon choices, pvp formats, etc. I have provided countless examples above, as have others. Please read, or reread the above thread and respond with your researched retort, and not just a simple “I disagree.”

While I do respect you opinion, I cannot look at you with any significance unless you can place something on the table other than your glass of water.

Combo fields? Have you played an ele in Guild Wars wars? Have you seen the recent update? Guild Wars has combo fields. It is just direct, and usually local to your build. These synergies have been present since release. Maybe not as BIG and obvious as it is not, but they were there.

Examples:
-Knock down if hexed: You necro teamate hexes, you kd.
-Blind if burning: Fire ele burns them, you blind them.
-Teleport and deep wound on low health: Augury of Death, call target and place mark, have team spike target, on low health you finish the job with an unexpected physical spike.
-Ward of Weakness: Pop it and have physical allies attack the target, even once to inflict weakness.
-Chilling Winds: Run air magic and place hex, have a water ele now place hexes on the foe for double length hexes.

The other thing you have to remember is that Guild Wars was designed extremely well, and didn’t need little ‘heart-parties.’ You build could be changed and developed for so many purposes it isn’t even funny. You could create endless combos, chains, etc. Guild Wars was a truly customizable game.

I can clearly state, as a fact that Guild Wars had a far greater level of customization for your build. That is obvious, just from looking at the sheer number of skills, not even factoring in team synergies, or stats.

I hate to be a jerk, but please do the research before you comment. I have not brought up combo fields because they are insignificant in terms of general functionality and livability of the game, they are just a cool little bonus to make the game slightly more fun.

Guild Wars 2 isn’t a bad game by any means. They put a lot of effort into the world, especially level design. But they severely lacked in many other systems. Again, please read up, as I listed things that they specifically neglected/ignored.

I’ve put a lot of thought into a system that, while it wouldn’t fully bring GW1’s system back, would spice up the skill system without completely re-designing the game.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Letting-us-pick-weaponskills-without-actually-changing-the-core-game/first#post129203

I’ve posted on a similar thread about this topic but I want to add that I am really happy with GW2 as a whole. When I was still playing GW1 and heard that the follow-up would be a departure from the style of the original I was a bit annoyed but also curious. The graphics are amazing, the engine is awesome, the character personalization is involved, the storyline is personal. BUT…gone are the countless ways to build your character, gone are library of elites around which to build a clever design. We are stuck with a small selection of stock skills that allow (for instance) Rangers to only have about 3-4 design iterations. We all look so beautifully unique, with an array of pets at our sides, and dye palettes galore…but our skill sets are limited. Some great things in GW2, but the best part of GW1 was the never-ending array of builds I could create and test and run in FOW or PVP.

As an aside, I like the idea of each weapon having a pool of available skills from which to choose 2,3,5. For instance, for Axe/Torch, Axe could have 6-7 available skills to choose your 1-3, and Torch would have 4-5 options from which to choose slots 4-5. Weapons like Greatsword could have 10 possible skills from which you choose your 1-5. A 4th utility slot would be pretty clutch too.

LanceHavenbay.2067:

To Nerva: That is fine, you are totally entitled to your opinion as well. I would like you to add constructive feedback though, rather than the generic: “It is great. Don’t listen to these whiners spiel.” And my opinion is based on the fact that I have played Guild Wars,

so youre basically comparing a fresh, brand new MMO with completely new mechanics to something that has been out for SEVEN years? are you seriously expecting complexity right off the bat?

GW2 rewards high APM (actions per minute). some builds have higher APM than others. on my mesmer i probably do like 2-3 actions per second on average, while on my hammer/mace/focus guardian i do something like 1 per second, not counting autoattack spam. but even with simple builds, a higher APM would benefit you. there is always something to do (creating/activating a field, booning/cleansing your mate, cc’ing a mob, or dps’ing), but you will never see the same kind of complexity in GW2 as you did in GW, which had more build variations after 7 years of development. please note that GW’s balance has been a kittening joke for a long time (even after 7 years it’s sketchy), whereas GW2 is almost perfectly balanced ON RELEASE. please take a moment to appreciate this.

i like to think of spvp as a MOBA. few skills, they do a lot, and theyre extremely APM-centric. while your nostalgia is touching, GW2’s combat just may not be for you. i cant really address your other concerns. remember, theyre going after esports here and they have a viable platform. they really really do. with proper tools, GW2 will be huge on the scene and will easily surpass whatever WoW did. GW was too much of a mess to be considered serious esport material, and they learned tons from it.

I also forgot to say: As a previous fanbase, I do have say in the game development. I have contributed in stress tests and other developmental factors of Guild Wars 2. That and the whole “I sunk money into the game by buying collectors to help support the game.”If nothing else, even if you feel it is ‘not my right’ to tell Anet how to do your job, fine. I feel it is. :P Same way I tell my president how I want them to run the country I live in. Sure, I can’t make the decision, but I can organize a community to support and develop improvements.

This is my job, and I take pride in it. If you like to just sit there and eat what you are fed, fine. I will be cooking gourmet meals.

Anet is very good at listening to it’s community, (although, I am seeing that doing this too much can be bad) because in large, I believe that humanity as a whole, is growing more simplistic and ignorant. But that is just my opinion. (;

I organized this thread, spent my time and mind-power to put together well thought out and researched information.

Also, there is a larger unhappy community than you seem to acknowledge, which is why I created this thread in the first place. Most people do not express their thoughts because they feel that nothing will come of it. That is where I come in, researching and displaying information that they can you, for or against my own personal views. That is what the forums are for. Games do evolve over time, and hopefully I can help to promote that evolution to be what I and others view as other.

If you disagree with my points, and would like to research and create your own thread detailing why Guild Wars 2 PvP is indeed, in fact, as great as you say, I would be happy to read it. Keep in mind that I am constantly doing research and will most likely counter-debate your points with my own information.

-Sorry, had to go pick up my bike from the shop.

nerva.7940:

so youre basically comparing a fresh, brand new MMO with completely new mechanics to something that has been out for SEVEN years? are you seriously expecting complexity right off the bat?

Well first off, this isn’t “Brand new.” This isn’t just some game thought up on the spot. The lore, the characters, the system, are all brought over and ‘refined’ from the previous game. So technically, this is supposed to be an upgraded 8th year.

Yes, I am expecting complexity right off the bat. They have, as I said, 7 years to design skills. I am actually, currently working on a project that converts all GW1 skills into GW2 playable skills. It really is not that complex, nor time consuming. The mechanics are not new, they are new to Guild Wars, if you exclude dynamic events, which really just need to be expanded so that they are not repetitive… that is common sense.

The whole point of this thread is that, they removed every single trace of what made the game customizable, and replaced it with a 70 skills list, which all classes being pretty much that same effing thing with a different look. Look up for examples on things they totally skipped out on, which would have only benefited the game, should they have kept them: Call system, chat system, pets evolving, etc.

Many highly-competitive base are either over-simplified combat systems, or simply based on maxing gear and dps. Guild Wars 2 tried to stray from that and ended in: Everyone is equal, in nearly every way, minute skill list, pre-made builds.

Guild Wars was so hard to balance BECAUSE of the fact that is was so customizable. People were coming up with new builds left and right, using them, exploiting them, figuring out ways to devastate their enemies. Such is the way of truly competitive games. Thinking, strategizing, planning your skills. Now, take that customization level, and times it by the high playerbase. That is a lot of things to keep track of. So I totally understand wanting to cut it down a bit to manage it better, but taking a gallon of juice, filling a shot glass, and dumping out the rest… is stupid. You threw away all the other fun, if not important parts of the game.

Oh and, attacks per second. About that: Guild Wars 1 had many ways to function, aps, control, defense/reflecting attacking, shutdown, which was usually VERY little damage and above all that, the placement really matters. Where were you, how were you moving. With the current mechanics, dodging does not accomplish much. It runs out, and there is a lot of kiting involved. The only time you ever NEEDED to kite in Guild Wars 1 was if you did not bring a single heal, you were trolling and wanted to make the RA team rage, or you were still learning to make a balanced build.

Yes. After 7 years they better get their stuff straight. Besides, they said they wanted to make everything perfect before release. They could have taken the time to plan it better. I would take 1 person, only 2 months to devise a GW2 equivalent of every single GW1 skill in the game. Testing it? That’s what beta is for. That’s what stress tests are for.

They have a viable platform right now for sure, problem is, without more fun involves, it will die. It is the initial hype, till you release you’ve completely run out of things to do, and you are sick and tired of using the same builds day in and day out.

Always having something to do: As a caster class in Guild Wars 1, now more than ever, there is always something to do. Whether that be healing, protecting, or casting defensive spells on them.

For example: Gust is your ’combo field" for melee kd/“swiftness.”

There are these types of skills and effects already in Guild Wars 1. Please do your research before you post. This ideas are not completely new. They are refurbished. They collected everything into a pile and ended up getting confused and throwing out the good stuff along with the bad stuff.

In no way is GW2 perfectly balanced, especially in turns of Crowd Control. Sure, they make the list of skills tiny, so there are less challenges to encounter, but that in no way implied balance.

Guild Wars 1 was balanced, but it was hell to manage it. And after years of managing it, expansions that added new skills, it got progressively harder and harder to maintain that balance.

Guild Wars 2 has great ideas, it does not need to become Guild Wars 1, it just needs to start thinking intelligently if it wants to thrive.

“Guild Wars was so hard to balance BECAUSE of the fact that is was so customizable.”

and there’s your answer. GW2 will therefore be somewhat less customizable to accommodate proper game balancing.

the current state of balance is excellent, albeit not perfect. reason being, you can counter just about everything through proper positioning, dodging and avoidance, i.e. the use of your physical environment.

if that’s not enough, there are a ton of builds that can specifically counter others. for example, feel like nullifying that hammer warrior? build a guardian that can produce 20 seconds of aoe stability. are condition builds a problem? i made a torch/virtue/consecration guardian for tpvp just for cleansing and dps, which was extremely effective. i can go on. in summary, specific pvp elements you see as problems (cc, lack of build variety, general complaints(??), i see as solutions to the horribly balanced MMO’s of the last decade.

and no, they cant balance everything in the beta and stress tests. have you any clue how much variation other human beings can come up with? if they have a house team of 100 people, they wont be able to come up with as many builds as 500k of us. therefore, you can only stay in beta for so long.

“and there’s your answer. GW2 will therefore be somewhat less customizable to accommodate proper game balancing.”

Somewhat? You meannnnnnnnnn approximately 1200 skills less, and almost a full minute longer recharge on nearly every skill? That seems like more than somewhat. Seriously, please look up, read. I already went over the fact that we do not need, and I am not asking for a Guild Wars 1 skill list. I already stated that 3, count them, 3 alternate skills, per first 5 slots, would make the game far more diverse and enjoyable. This would not overbalance the game. Not in the least. You are about 1200 skills less. Considering how well Anet worked under pressure with balance, some 1319 skills, they would do just fine with a net total of 300 skills. The game would be even more competition friendly, PvE would be more fun as well, and people would not get bored weeks after release.

Anddd that who point of having a beta is to have people help you test. /facepalm
Please read what I type carefully: 1/5 the skills of Guild Wars, would not be enough to throw the game out of balance, but it would be enough to make the game far more enjoyable for all.

" reason being, you can counter just about everything through proper positioning, dodging and avoidance, i.e. the use of your physical environment." isn’t this why Crowd Control spam is so rampant? /yes

So, overall, you are telling me, that to make something enjoyable, it must be simple and mindless? Funny, because that’s what most people aim to avoid.

Also, because of the way Guild Wars 2 is setup, you cannot make your entire bar the same as you could in Guild Wars 1. You have weapon slots and utility slots. Guild Wars 1 did not. Therefore, if you choose support skills in your weapon slots, your utilities better match it, or assist it, because that is what you traited for/gear up for. If anything, you’d just be more balance. You don’t have that hectic, “Oh hey I can do literally anything with my bar” anymore. That degree of exploitative customization has been removed. Thus, your argument is invalid.

I don’t normally read rants but I have to salute the OP for a well written ‘dissertation’.

I agree with almost all the points and I wish the devs will find the courage to add skill diversity in future updates. Maybe not to the level of GW1 but I’d like to see more.

Also I want to bring up 2 points:

- Elite skills feel underwhelming in GW2 (from a Guardian perspective). I remember in GW1 you would shape your entire build based on the elite of choice. The elite was the backbone of you strategy (most often). This cannot be said about GW2.

- The trait system in GW2 is limiting my choice for weapon usage. For example, the guardian has trait lines that heavily emphasize the symbols. However, the scepter which is the only viable long range weapon doesn’t have any symbol skills (nor do offhands).
Of lesser impact we then have traits that buff a single weapon type. Changing traits costs money and a trip to the city. I hope you see this creates an artificial choice limitation.

The weapon skill system was made to reduce the amount of builds and to simplify the system.
That’s the whole point. It’s completely intentional.

It’s very easy to make a thousand useless builds in GW1.
They wanted GW2 to have fewer builds, but have them all be at least playable.

To add variety they introduced the Trait system.
At first you could pretty much put any Trait anywhere!
…but it just made everybody pick the best traits. The GW1 problem.
That’s why they now use the Adept/Master/Grandmaster system to restrict your choices.

The lack of variety is intentional and I don’t think that it’s going to change.
They’ll probably add new traits and skills in expansions or updates eventually but I highly doubt that they are going to overhaul the whole system.

As for current useless Traits/Skills they’ll get balance changes for sure.
That in of itself will make for more variety without overwhelming people.

Sorry if it came across as a rant. This is just something that is very important to me and it bothers me how much has been neglected. That and I have people coming on here, not reading anything and trying to blindly jump around, acting like they know something.

Silver Chopper, I think you touched on something that I missed: The underpowered Elites. Exactly as you said it, was perfect. Bravo.

Lack of variety does not need to mean, stale, empty, lacking in nearly all aspects. As I said previously, having significantly less skills is fine with me. I understand that part of it. But having 100 skills, all of which are nearly identical across the board… That is the part that I am not ok with.

Hopefully in time they balance it, and hopefully they come across this thread on at least take into consideration that they skipped over a few very important details.

LastDay.3524:

It’s very easy to make a thousand useless builds in GW1.
They wanted GW2 to have fewer builds, but have them all be at least playable.

To add variety they introduced the Trait system.
At first you could pretty much put any Trait anywhere!
…but it just made everybody pick the best traits. The GW1 problem.

For every useless build you make, I can make 5 useful ones. And you are horribly mistaken if you think “everyone picked the best traits in Guild Wars 1,” because there were multiple, as in 10 or more counters to every single build on the market. There was not best.

You want to run the “OP Grenth Derv?” Fine, I’ll run Soul Bind, Parasitic bond, Soul Barbs. Cya kid. Or I can simply snare you and walk away and laugh as you -99% movement speed walk around the map not getting a single hit, etc etc etc.

If you would read the above articles, (so tired of telling people to read before they write) you would see that we already touched on that fact that traits do not add variety in Guild Wars 2. They give minor bonuses to what you already have. That is obvious to see. And if you really want to fight me on that: You cannot even place traits unless you have the stats using them.

Please read the above thread before you go and type about something that has already been covered. Do not come and post like you have a valid argument when you have nothing more than a comment that someone else has already made, and been shot down for. This thread is supposed to be productive, not pages full of “Sir, please learn to read.”

Also, as mentioned before. Please come with conclusive RESEARCH regarding any points that you would like to make.

Sincerely,
-Lance

Their defiantly needs to be a skill system rework, or at least add 30-100 or so new skills to each class. With how the skill system is now its just the same 1-5 skills every time which gets very, very Boring fast. Yes there is utility skills, But those are usually only buffs for most classes or have a long CD. Keep the sPvP skills the same though because it is so much more balanced that way, but for PvE there needs to be some major work done on the current skill system.

even though there were a million skills in GW1, the variety was not as great as you imply. Only a few top notch builds were played for every class and many skills were very similiar apart from name and visual effect. You can be as condescending as you like, that does not change that fact.

Sorry Aleiro, apparently I missed your post from long ago.

“I never used some skills, moreover all the warriors I saw were using my same build.”

There is something called meta, which moreso is a description of people’s tendancies to want to be perfect. In an environment where people develop builds, they will more often use skills that they see others use. If a player sees an effective build, they will most likely copy it, or take it as a primary format. Now, when you throw publicized events such as GvG, many plays will aim to reflect the “effective” build that they saw used. And in a counter to that build, another build will spring up to fight against it. Those builds will remain meta until someone comes and breaks the chain. That is always how it works in any game you will ever play, regardless of the genre. It is built into many people, to want to follow by example.

Cookie cutters are not even mentioned, and I strongly frown upon them because they are only effective within a very small scale of play. It means 1 quick kill, and then a long period of inactivity or largely reduced effectiveness. As you become more survivable, you lower the damage or defense, defending what you are substituting. I feel this is becoming especially true in Guild Wars 2, … dungeons aren’t pvp butttttttttt you knowww what’s wrong with that picture! xD

“It all comes down to what I have been saying in many posts like this, adapting to a new game, not making the devs adapt the game to you. "

My response to that: My view is based solely on the fact that my view was developed almost exclusively from Guild Wars 1. The developers made a sequel, and took out many key elements that made Guild Wars 1 fast paced and creative. Evolution is what is supposed to happen. Guild Wars 2 is that kitteny offspring that looks cool, but has lost it’s motor skills. This can be seen in far more than just the skill functionality. See call targets, and other mentions above.

“Still you only have 3 utility skills to choose, can’t use more than that. Even if they give you the 280+ skills to choose from you can use 3” It is simple math. Having more skills means having more combinations, thus a larger skill pool will be very beneficial.

Seras, I agreed completely. Level design I would give a 10. I mean, I create 3d environments for a hobby and manually test glitches etc. The map makers of GW2 spend their time VERY wisely. There are so few errors, and believe me, I check. xD Storyline I would give a 9. It WOULD be 10, but I do not like my character just standing around shifting his weight on his heels the whole scene… Pvp, taken from my GW1 past, I would give a 4/10. Amazing ideas, cool animations, poorly planned functions, TINY skill pool, Elites do not define anything, they are just a buffed up utility, weapon skills are static and bland, oh anddddd traits are not role defining, they are just little bonuses to what you already have… weapons never change, weapon skills get boring because they never change. Sure, w/e, I have a bow too. Cool. Now instead of hithithit, I can spam bleedbleedbleed. They need to review what they have and consider new skills with different funtions to make the game less repetitive.

To Rhaj, they need to add more skills to PvP as well. That is where the game is hurting the most. As least PvE has events and puzzles to make your mind have some sort of process going on other than 111111 kitekitekite.

To Algreg, as full of little fanboys(that is condescending) this forum has become, most people who come in and make posts either: A: Have no clue about the topic they are posting on. B: Don’t care that they don’t know and post anyways just to feel cool/special. C: Don’t care to take the time to research and make a valid point.

So, if that was an attempt to troll. You failed. I would elaborate but it is really not worth anyones time. Rather than make snide comments, please contribute productively.

Now, because of this comment:
“even though there were a million skills in GW1, the variety was not as great as you imply. Only a few top notch builds were played for every class and many skills were very similiar apart from name and visual effect.”

I beg to differ on variety. *And yes the skills were similar, many were meant to serve similar purposes with slightly different effects, which in term altered how the build worked. *

Please pull up examples of what you mean.

Example that I have:
Make a foes bleed: Hunters shot is a standard recharge, low energy, bleed only effect. Barbed Arrows makes your arrows bleed any target you hit. The tradeoff is that it has a high energy cost and -armor while activating. Screaming Shot deals direct, extra damage along with bleeding, with the exception that is has a range. Melandru’s Arrows is an elite skill that is pretty much a conglomeration of those skills. It’s trade off is that it must strike enchanted foes to give the damage bonus. This is how an elite skill should behave! It should enable you to run similar functions at improved rates, for a small trade off. It being Elite, means that it is a more powerful skill than normal. And it is. Not rather than, choosing between 3 skills, you can (for the most part) use all 3 skills at once. The downfall, now you cannot use another great enlite skill such as Poisoning Arrow, Crippling Shot or Broadhead arrow. So to obtain those effects, you must use normal skills such as: Pin Down, Concussion Shot or Poison Signet. Each of which is less effective than it’s elite counterpart. This was te beauty of Guild Wars 1. Skills actually mattered in regards to how or what you used in your build. And you had options. MANY options. So, before you tell me that the game has similar skills, I will tell you: “Well yeah, but at least they aren’t all THE SAME like in Guild Wars 2.” (;

I have went and specifically made a small list of different skill combos that you can make with one primary profession in Guild Wars 1. I only put up skills that I myself have used in PvP(Mainly FA) with outstanding results. Keep in mind, if you add PvE, there is an ever larger variety of builds. Farming usually does not have many different builds, because to farm, you, generally speaking… Have to exploit the game mechanics/location. This requires specific skills, with little wiggle room on average. Examples would be DoA, MTsc, MQsc, that farm outside of D’Alessio Seaboard, etc.

Sorry the list is so small, I have things that I need to get done tonight and am trying to squeeze forum time in as well.

It really would would help yours, and everyone else’s case to do research and post it before making a comment with no basis behind it.

Now, in regards to being condescending, honestly, I could be hostile, but it would be a waste of time. It would not make people any less ignorant. That proof is all over. Now, what I do do, is get a little tired of having to repeat myself to people who are posting in a thread without reading anything about the topic they post on. Yes, if you don’t read a thread and post a response, dang right I’m going to call you on an ignorant comment. I owe it to you, because you make yourself look silly and uneducated, and I really don’t think you want to look like that. I have said time and time again, please read and research before posting, as it will only represent you for the better, and show that you have a clear understanding as to what is being discussed.

Leave out your childish comments and bring back results. Thank you.

Yes, some skills are used more often than others. Why? Well, honestly, some skills were designed better than others. But the main reason, is that many people seek specific roles. As in, the want the build to do something very specific, and are too lazy to come up with their own way and would rather use what someone else already came up with. Perfect example would be people using PvX wiki solely. It is meant to be a guide, or a place to get a sense of skill combinations. Many people used it as an be-all end-all. That is part of the reason why you see so many of the same builds, not because one is better than the other. Especially in Guild Wars 1, there was literally a counter to everything. WoH Bonetti Monk? My beastmaster would tear you up, or at least make you very very vunerable. (That is where teamwork comes in.)

Please notice that Elites in Guild Wars 1 define the build you use. Guild Wars 2, the Elites actually aren’t even needed in the build. Sure, they are helpful at times, but they really serve no great purpose. The skills in Guild Wars 2, have very few synergies. You can inflict direct conditions, maybe shoot an arrow through fire… but from what I have seen, the skills(or at least most) do not directly effect one another.

9 of these builds, I made completly on my own, through experimentation and personal playstyle preferences. I loved being a minion master that the monks loved to play with. <3