Guild Wars 2

Personal dps meters and other statistical tools would be nice.

Zenith.7301:

They disallowed DPS meters so that it’s harder for the playerbase and theorycrafters to gather data about performance.

This keeps current functions obscure to the playerbase so that when a developer makes a claim, it’s hard for players to refute or engage them.

or, they see more harm then good in the community that can come from it. Plenty of examples of where there is much harm. IMO, the harm out weighs the good, so it is good to not have DPS meters.

The reason is so that people do not get pigeon-holed into playing a character how others feel is best and can play them how they want to. I don’t want someone telling “your build is bad noob, you should play this” and so I am all for not having dps meters.

A thing I’ve seen in this thread is that people are scared to implement these tools out of fear that they will be misused. Well, I’m sorry to say, but there are plenty of tools in the game that can be used to grief other players.

Chat, gear, professions, fractal level and even titles. That’s just a handful. If a person is creative enough, they can turn even the most benevolent thing into an instrument of torture. But also, humans have a very big history of taking any kind of research and using it to kill each other. Nuclear weapons being one of the most obvious.

As a nuclear physics student, I’ve had people ask me this kind of dilemma before. My response is always the same. Nightmare isn’t created by tools, it’s created by the ones that use those tools, removing the tools doesn’t remove the nightmare, it merely forces it to find other tools.

Jaall.3420:

Just a quick example of how a damage meter, including total damage, is just completely the wrong thing to do. I was playing FFXI which has no damage meter at all, but you can get parsers online that work in exactly the same way. One time we decided to parse our events to do as you said, test where our strengths were and what classes we should all be coming to get the best results instead of just coming in the way we saw was fun.

Anyways at the end of the run, we looked back at the damage and linked it all in party chat etc. Now, we are all really really great friends, but the arguments we had after discussing them results were just incredible. People were saying they were all terrible players and the classes were wrong and imbalanced, and making excuses, blaming the bosses for using bad moves etc. Basically just slating everyone, which never happens because we all knew we were great players and didn’t need numbers to tell us that.

My point being, that after using this for a week our overall view on the DPS meter was to burn it and never ever set eyes on it again, because it would have destroyed our friendship and will do the same with the community, all over a set of numbers that really mean very little. It does not measure skill.

This game is not like WoW and I really hope it does not become a new WoW. The laid back nature of the community in game at the moment when it comes to joining events is what keeps me and a lot of players actually active in the game. Not everyone who plays today has come from an MMO background, or plays hardcore because there’s no sub fee, so adding so much competition for damage will potentially be disastrous.

Not very good friends then if a few artificial numbers caused a lash out between you.

if someone on my team or one of my friends has bad numbers I have suggestions for them to bring up their numbers I dont castrate my friends for poor dps. If we were successful on the run thats all that matters. If we failed hard for hours then its time to look at how we are playing and reacting to mechanics.

Some of you are making over the top exaggeration’s to very specific scenarios that dont really happen very often at all….. especially between friends, thats how I know your full of crap.

HotHit.6783:

A thing I’ve seen in this thread is that people are scared to implement these tools out of fear that they will be misused. Well, I’m sorry to say, but there are plenty of tools in the game that can be used to grief other players.

Chat, gear, professions, fractal level and even titles. That’s just a handful. If a person is creative enough, they can turn even the most benevolent thing into an instrument of torture. But also, humans have a very big history of taking any kind of research and using it to kill each other. Nuclear weapons being one of the most obvious.

As a nuclear physics student, I’ve had people ask me this kind of dilemma before. My response is always the same. Nightmare isn’t created by tools, it’s created by the ones that use those tools, removing the tools doesn’t remove the nightmare, it merely forces it to find other tools.

But since we can’t remove the nightmare (unhealthily competitive players with feelings of superiority), might as well do our best to reduce its catastrophic effects in the community by making it hard for the nightmare to thrive.

Causic.3798:

The reason is so that people do not get pigeon-holed into playing a character how others feel is best and can play them how they want to. I don’t want someone telling “your build is bad noob, you should play this” and so I am all for not having dps meters.

In short, that is exactly what would happen and become the norm-it even happens as of now WITHOUT any tool to enforce this horrible attitude.

HotHit.6783:

A thing I’ve seen in this thread is that people are scared to implement these tools out of fear that they will be misused. Well, I’m sorry to say, but there are plenty of tools in the game that can be used to grief other players.

Chat, gear, professions, fractal level and even titles. That’s just a handful. If a person is creative enough, they can turn even the most benevolent thing into an instrument of torture. But also, humans have a very big history of taking any kind of research and using it to kill each other. Nuclear weapons being one of the most obvious.

As a nuclear physics student, I’ve had people ask me this kind of dilemma before. My response is always the same. Nightmare isn’t created by tools, it’s created by the ones that use those tools, removing the tools doesn’t remove the nightmare, it merely forces it to find other tools.

What exactly is the purpose of a DPS meter or other sort of meter, though? I simply do not see the purpose of such a ‘tool’, despite the insistence of many players that they should be in game or available.

Narnu – “Some of you are making over the top exaggeration’s to very specific scenarios that dont really happen very often at all….. especially between friends, thats how I know your full of crap.”
You’ve never really played an MMO that allows this sort of thing then, or else you have been incredibly lucky not to encounter tacky people.

Xomic – “Well, I’m sorry to say, but there are plenty of tools in the game…”
You hit that right on the head, somewhat partially quoted, lol. Plenty of them in any game, let’s not give them any more ammo!

Deepcuts.9740:

A meter would be a nice addition.
But:
1. Make meters for
a. Direct DPS
b. Damage taken – Tank
c. Healing given
e. Condition damage
f. Conditions removed
g. Interrupts applied
h. Number of times a player got downed
f. Number of times a player rezzed another player
x. Some more stats

I think the title is wrong and because of that, many players are afraid and do not want this kind of feature.

Even if we no not have a dedicated dps, tank or healer, some stats would be nice to see where everyone excels at.

I might want to be a dedicated healer, so I will gear up for best healing.
I would like to know if I am good at that.
The same goes for DPS, tanking and all other stats.

It is not ALL about DPS.

This would be okay with me, but I had a small addition I would make: make a score UI instead. At the end of the dungeon, everyone sees these values, like a RTS game or games that score/keep track of numerics for gameplay. I wouldn’t like seeing DPS meters in game, being a full berserker mesmer myself. people in here have expressed why and I agree with them. It promotes elitism mid way/during the content that the party wants to experience/advance from. If you display it at the end, I think that would be alright in my opinion. I’d love to see what classes are doing what since ht can be hard to tell in the thick of battle sometimes. If you list all the combat mechanics this way, then it will be balanced out.

Just my 2c.

Tolmos.8395:

Total damage for the entire team? Sure. Total damage for yourself ONLY? Yes. Total damage for other individuals in your group? Oh hell no. It just invites a type of in game bullying that is neither welcome here nor needed here.

I play trinity games regularly, and consistently play a tank or healer. I refuse to play DPS. With that said, if ANYONE in my group wastes my and the group’s time by kittening and whining about someone’s DPS, I boot them. Simple as that. I have the patience of Buddha when it comes to running with other people, but I will judge you by your own standards. If a player thinks that someone’s DPS being 5% lower than their own is slowing down the run so much that it needs to be addressed, then I will address the fact that their kittenty personality is slowing down the run.

tl;dr- my vote is- for yourself, sure. For others? No.

I actually really like this answer and agree entirely. Been told I can’t speed run cof because I was a zerker ranger. Later ran cof with 2 guildies and 2 randoms and we cleared it in 9min (don’t think we had a warrior or mesmer). Goes to show the stigma behind top dps isn’t very accurate.

I would still love a dps meter to see how much damage I can output (one the separates condi damage from physical damage would be amazing).

Kemina.7812:

Meters are bad – they make a game community horrible and toxic. I am a six year veteran of WoW and I can honestly say that the people who look at/spam meter readings are the most unpleasant and obnoxious jerks in that game, as they would be in this one.
If meters were allowed in this game, I would like to see a checkbox for pugs, so that people could choose not not group with any running such a thing.

As a veteran of GW1, WoW, and City of Heroes all since 2005 I agree with this.

Onlt one of those games had meters, and only one of them has a toxic community.

GW1 was mostly a solo game for me due to picking an anti-social guild and not getting myself out of it. But in City of Heroes not only was the community -not- toxic, it was very social and cooperative. People looking out for each other, making teams, and focusing on having a good time together. The -other- game was just hostile on all fronts once the meters became common.

When I started WoW people ran around helping each other, casting buffs and rezzing folks.

The biggest argument on my original WoW server was a question about how rude it was if somebody passed you by without buffing you – and what could be done to teach people that this wasn’t how to play, that proper WoW play involved being friendly and helping those around you.

The arguments these days all seem to be about how much the noobs and losers want to get carried…

Meters can stay out…

I would like to have a dps meter for the sole purpose to finally have irrefutable evidence to throw in the face of those elitest jerks that think there is a meaningful difference between mf and zerker geared players of equal skill.

Causic.3798:

The reason is so that people do not get pigeon-holed into playing a character how others feel is best and can play them how they want to. I don’t want someone telling “your build is bad noob, you should play this” and so I am all for not having dps meters.

So you are down for dragging down groups. In which case, who the hell would want you?

GROUPS.TEAMS. It’s not only your goals that are to be respected.

If you want to be deficient, be deficient while soloing. Don’t make other pay for your bad decisions.

And to anyone who didn’t think GW1 was elitist, get that head out of wherever you’ve stuck it in.

You try run DoA with some weird dervish build or inefficient class category, or fail to link your high Lightbringer rank abilities, and you’ll be kicked if some party accepted you without asking first. Guild Wars 1 PvE and PvP (HA) was among the most elitist environments and it didn’t have DPS meters.

Zenith.7301:

Causic.3798:

The reason is so that people do not get pigeon-holed into playing a character how others feel is best and can play them how they want to. I don’t want someone telling “your build is bad noob, you should play this” and so I am all for not having dps meters.

So you are down for dragging down groups. In which case, who the hell would want you?

GROUPS.TEAMS. It’s not only your goals that are to be respected.

If you want to be deficient, be deficient while soloing. Don’t make other pay for your bad decisions.

And to anyone who didn’t think GW1 was elitist, get that head out of wherever you’ve stuck it in.

You try run DoA with some weird dervish build or inefficient class category, or fail to link your high Lightbringer rank abilities, and you’ll be kicked if some party accepted you without asking first. Guild Wars 1 PvE and PvP (HA) was among the most elitist environments and it didn’t have DPS meters.

Being deficient in GW2 has nothing to do with DPS or any kind of statistics.

The game encourages you to judge a party member based on his overall performance in a group, not some out-of-context statistic. Nobody is dragging you down by doing 5% less damage than you.

We don’t need to know anyone’s DPS, kill/death ratio, and any of that kind of crap.

Zenith.7301:

So you are down for dragging down groups. In which case, who the hell would want you?

GROUPS.TEAMS. It’s not only your goals that are to be respected.

If you want to be deficient, be deficient while soloing. Don’t make other pay for your bad decisions.

And to anyone who didn’t think GW1 was elitist, get that head out of wherever you’ve stuck it in.

You try run DoA with some weird dervish build or inefficient class category, or fail to link your high Lightbringer rank abilities, and you’ll be kicked if some party accepted you without asking first. Guild Wars 1 PvE and PvP (HA) was among the most elitist environments and it didn’t have DPS meters.

-Playing your own way =/= dragging down a group. That’s YOUR definition of someone else’s build you don’t like. For them, it may work wonders even if you wouldn’t use it, whether it’s for efficiency’s sake or something else.

-It is also not only your efficiency goals which are to be respected

-Individuals get to decide what’s “efficient” for them, not an established meta group-think-nor you. Therefore, I know what’s good and works for me, playing accordingly-you don’t get to decide which way I should play. There are many ways to skin a cat, and "all things have a right to grow-not just the “more efficient” ones" (heed Ventari’s words.)

-Elitism on GW1, which I also utterly despised and rejected, is not an excuse for elitism in here, much less DPS meters. I agree, things are better to a point in this game, seeing there’s no real need for Warriors/Mesmers/Guardians (that’s an artificial meta-group, not Professions really “needed” for any content.) What many of us don’t want is for that attitude to have “official” developer backing by adding something that the game doesn’t even needs, since this is NOT a game based solely around DPS, regardless the constant myths to the contrary.

AntiGw.9367:

Being deficient in GW2 has nothing to do with DPS or any kind of statistics.

The game encourages you to judge a party member based on his overall performance in a group, not some out-of-context statistic. Nobody is dragging you down by doing 5% less damage than you.

Exactly, this game is not a DPS race, even though it’s a common misperception going around. Having “hard evidence” of someone’s DPS doesn’t mean that the less DPS%player is ANY worse-and this is just the facts, not even personal opinion (otherwise everybody would then play a max DPS warrior on PvE environment, which thankfully doesn’t happen all the time.)

Kichwas.7152:

Kemina.7812:

Meters are bad – they make a game community horrible and toxic. I am a six year veteran of WoW and I can honestly say that the people who look at/spam meter readings are the most unpleasant and obnoxious jerks in that game, as they would be in this one.
If meters were allowed in this game, I would like to see a checkbox for pugs, so that people could choose not not group with any running such a thing.

As a veteran of GW1, WoW, and City of Heroes all since 2005 I agree with this.

Onlt one of those games had meters, and only one of them has a toxic community.

GW1 was mostly a solo game for me due to picking an anti-social guild and not getting myself out of it. But in City of Heroes not only was the community -not- toxic, it was very social and cooperative. People looking out for each other, making teams, and focusing on having a good time together. The -other- game was just hostile on all fronts once the meters became common.

When I started WoW people ran around helping each other, casting buffs and rezzing folks.

The biggest argument on my original WoW server was a question about how rude it was if somebody passed you by without buffing you – and what could be done to teach people that this wasn’t how to play, that proper WoW play involved being friendly and helping those around you.

The arguments these days all seem to be about how much the noobs and losers want to get carried…

Meters can stay out…

I’m sorry, but saying the community in WoW became “toxic” after Recount came out is a bit of a stretch.

I support personal stat meters. In other words meters that allow you to gauge your own performance to help you find holes in stat allocation.

Combat in this game is more reactive, so a dps meter wouldn’t really tell the whole story. Just because you wear optimal gear sets won’t help you survive an encounter.
Not that they are hard beyond belief anyways.

Even if you wear all zerker gear and sport a power build, different weapon set ups will obviously show different numbers. Remember, in games that kind of require a parser for gear check fights don’t really have weapon swaps.

Speaking of which, MMO’s like WoW that support 3rd party programs such as recount/other group wide/raid wide parsers (most games don’t have an ingame parser, personal or otherwise), usually kind of need them as they have gear check fights
that have ENRAGE TIMERS. You need to have the dps to beat particular fights before the enrage wipes the entire group. So meters provide a way to find weak links in the chain and either help gear them, find optimal rotations or replace them.

ENRAGE TIMERS don’t exist here. This game is more of a “don’t stand in the flames” type of game even more so than most. With downscaling involved, a 60 in 60 gear can perform just as good as a 76 in 76 gear. I guess many don’t understand that.

I’ve gone into AC with 80’s in exotics and ascended pieces and watch them go down regularly while the 55 in the group handles like a champ.

The only real place that I see players get destroyed is when a level 80 in exotics comes across anything under rare in WvW. Upscaling I don’t think works quite as well player vs player. Mobs and pve seem totally different.

Anyway, I’m for personal meters tracking stats as you go.

Not for group wide dps meters in 5man dungeons. Just not needed imo. Not like any of the content is undoable even if ppl are donning crappy builds that just don’t work.

I’ve got a better idea, let’s nerf critical damage multipliers and flatten the differences between skill damage coefficients so that all classes and builds are closer in total damage. Then we won’t need meters, and we won’t have people saying that only class x or build y matters.

lets not even joke about this. first off Guildwars clearly states there is no trinity so why would we want a DPS meter? The aim of this MMO is a more balanced role game play. Everyone tanks, everyone heals and everyone does dps.

we don’t need this dps race mind set that WoW had, sure the more dps the better but the issue is the “dps standards” only keep rising till its reached a point of elitism and anyone who is unable to reach this level is cast away. CoF path 1 is already starting to get this problem with this 4 war zerk/ mesmer farm team requirement.

That being said and out of my system, I do agree that some kinda personal meter would be helpful. Nothing that shows how you ranked in group but more of a statistics chart. like average idle time in combat, time spend rezing/being rezed, average success dodge rate, dps per sec/min, wasted conditions things we can use to fix or even improve ourselfs and builds on

How does not having a trinity mean there is no need for a DPS meter, or any other kind of meter?

Even though everyone can do any role (at least that was the intention), I’d still like to have some non-anecdotal way of seeing how much damage my Guardian takes, and compare it to everyone else, to see whether stacking all that toughness was worth it.

It would also force Anet to balance the classes in PvE, but that’s a different issue.

Sunflowers.1729:

How does not having a trinity mean there is no need for a DPS meter, or any other kind of meter?

A question to your question:, how would it benefit this type of game even one bit?

Since GW2 is not only about who has the highest DPS, having a DPS meter is akin to measuring the blood temperature of a rock: inapplicable.

“…or any other kind of meter?”

If it would be for personal use and “unpingable”, then that would be ok. Otherwise it would serve the same purpose as the aforementioned DPS meter-it won’t be used for “self-improvement” but more likely would be like giving a handgun to a monkey instead-a big community hazard. Consider how a few people are already big griefers on this game over gear specs-now imagine that officially backed by ANet with performance meters that will be interpreted by the pseudo Elite to measure your gameplay (rather than their own, which they are generally very confident about, since they copied it from a FotM build which is supposed to be efficient and “the best”). In the long run, this addition would only benefit virtual bigots rather than helping us review or improve our own gameplay, based on metered (and therefore, “scientific”, thus cited as “evidence”) statistical performance.

In short, I don’t trust people enough-most likely they will use such a tool to serve their own efficient agendas, much like many would kill the crippled and the maimed if they could get away with it. Survival of the fittest it is for many. A healthy community deserves that we don’t empower small pockets of players with bad attitudes, so that they don’t spread over like a virus-especially when there’s no need for the tools in the first place, since no content in the game warrants such things.

The best “DPS meter” for the “leet” is already here: let them make their own LFG group with all gear/build/professions/achievement point requirements their heart desires. Not worth poisoning the community for the sakes of making it too convenient to very few players out there. How is a site like GW2LFG not good enough to “cull the inefficient”?

(Also, if big DPS numbers make you feel good, you can also theorycraft your builds with the different build crafters out there, and see how much you can stack your effective damage. Totally harmless, though I admit it’s just numbers and the build may not perform as efficiently as the numbers seem to indicate. Good fun though, and no need to bother anyone with your results, unlike with the more “scientific”, in-game meters.)

Please give me evidence that no DPS meters is harming the game in any way, and that adding them will result in general population growth. It’s simply bad business to add those meters to this type of game-even many “hardcore” players will oppose the change, complain, and really leave for good. For other games, I guess that’s what they may be about, but it’s just not a good fit at all for GW2.

I do understand how a “performance review” would be nice (for everything, not only DPS), but it’s always dangerous if used improperly, so ANet would have to be very careful if ever implementing such a thing.

The amount of times that the people who topped the DPS meters were lieing dead on the floor due to not moving out of the aoe and demanding a revive, I lost track of that. They are bad memories and I would like to keep them that way.

DPS meters should be banned from every game. They never look at the big picture.

Let’s give a clear example. In TA on the first boss. My main job towards the end is dodging dodging and dodging, because every single wurm will 99% of the time target me and exclusively me with their spit attack. So for the good of the group I stay away and do almost no dps. Bring in a DPS meter into this and I would be kicked for severely under performing. Even though my actions mean we kill the bloody thing.

We used DPS meters in AoC while raiding. The top DPSers almost never buffed or debuffed and only DPSed so the only reason they got as high as they did was because of the work of others, but they sure liked to gloat.

Star Ace.5207:

Sunflowers.1729:

How does not having a trinity mean there is no need for a DPS meter, or any other kind of meter?

A question to your question:, how would it benefit this type of game even one bit?

Since GW2 is not only about who has the highest DPS, having a DPS meter is akin to measuring the blood temperature of a rock: inapplicable.

stuff…

Like it or not, people still do damage. And if I have two different builds that do damage, I’d like to see which one does more. (Your argument is like saying the weather isn’t entirely about air pressure, so barometers are useless)

Therefore, a DPS meter would be nice, as would a meter for everything else including damage taken, healing.etc It shouldn’t be ping-able since then everyone would just be like “LF2M 3k+ DPS”, but as a way to gauge yourself, it definitely has its’ uses.

Personal DPS-meter would be really nice to have. Despite what all those haters say.

One just have to have some tools for judging his own performance. Currently it is all very subjective and obscure.

Don’t really care about team-wide scores and such. I just want to know which build\weapon deals more damage.

Chaotic Storm.2815:

lets not even joke about this. first off Guildwars clearly states there is no trinity so why would we want a DPS meter? The aim of this MMO is a more balanced role game play. Everyone tanks, everyone heals and everyone does dps.

Everyone does dps – exactly. You can’t be a real tank in this game, you can’t be a real healer. The only thing that you can do really well is dpsing, so why not have a tool to measure it.
Utilities are cool and stuff, but you can use WoR in zerk gear to get the same effect as in soldier’s.

Tolmos.8395:

Total damage for the entire team? Sure. Total damage for yourself ONLY? Yes. Total damage for other individuals in your group? Oh hell no. It just invites a type of in game bullying that is neither welcome here nor needed here.

Completely agree here. I’d like a damage meter for myself sometimes just to see how traits and build decisions affect my overall damage output. It would help to know, given my current condition dmg and power, would trait A or B be better? I’d even be ok if existed exclusively in the Mists lobby and during boss encounters. Just a toggle in your UI options to display your personal damage output.

But allowing everyone to see your damage output, not just per player but for professions as a whole, can (and will) lead to exclusivity and unfair kicking. Not to mention that every player is responsible for healing & support. So someone with low dps might be that way because they’ve been buffing the group, resulting in bigger party-dps. But a dps-meter wouldn’t reflect that. I think most GW2 players came here specifically to avoid the WoW-esque recount ping gear crap. That’s my take.

Conner.4702:

DPS meters should be banned from every game. They never look at the big picture.

Let’s give a clear example. In TA on the first boss. My main job towards the end is dodging dodging and dodging, because every single wurm will 99% of the time target me and exclusively me with their spit attack. So for the good of the group I stay away and do almost no dps. Bring in a DPS meter into this and I would be kicked for severely under performing. Even though my actions mean we kill the bloody thing.

So then it’s safe to say you essentially “tanked” the fight.

Now, let me ask you this…when were you ever in a group where it was expected the tank had the highest dps?

If this idea that something should never be introduced because of the possibility of abuse were adhered to, there’s be pretty much nothing ever introduced.

It would be helpful to see if you had decent dps in the fight, or if the trait change you made helped or hurt you.

It would be helpful to see if your support setup really IS doing decent support, or are you just wasting a spot tossing out meaningless heals and buffs?

Anything that can be a valuable tool can be abused…anything.

Kemina.7812:

No – this also breeds rudeness and elitism. None of your business what anyone is wearing or is traited – this is a GAME, not a job – no one should be scrutinized like a job applicant as soon as they get in a group to play a game. Just get your group and go play – you’ll know soon enough if it’s not the right group for you without being able to inspect. What this game needs is a way to inspect for gogogo kiddies and efficiency fiends before we decide to group with them!
There are plenty of other games that enable elitist jerks, I no longer play them, that’s why I love GW.

thank you for saying I don’t have the right to play the way I like (with likeminded people who prefer to run dungeons somewhat fast and efficient) and in the same sentence say I have to play the way you want me too because obviously you are always right and I am wrong for wanting to have fun in the game my way without hurting anyone. I guess I’m an elitist jerk because I don’t want to carry you while you insult me?

by now I’m quite past the kiddie stage, as I’ll reach 30 in a few days. I am a very logical person though (which is kinda expected from application developers) and as such I LIKE thinking about the efficiency of my character. I have FUN when I can get a bit more out of it. I don’t do it as excessively as other minmaxers, but I do care about getting as much out of my character as I can. you might find it fun to profit off someone else, I have fun if I feel useful to the group. in turn I want teammates who have a similar mentality. I don’t expect them to run full zerker for every dungeon (except CoF1 farming), but I don’t want guardians which only play with a staff, have no group support and claim to be tanks – all the while I have to ress them constantly burning all my invulns/heals etc to do so.

if I post ‘no mf gear’ in a lfg, I can be sure there are at least two players running 100% or more mf. I have no way of confronting them right now. I need to be able to share my stats/gear and see others stats if they shared them. I don’t even care much about the build of a person, or if it’s rabid or zerker or whatever, as long as everybody works FOR the team, not against it.

@Star Ace: if the tanky player actually DOES heal me and provide support (I’ve had runs with 3 guardians and only one ever used ‘stand your ground’ – and he was the one wearing zerker gear), I’m fine with such a defensive setup for one player in the group. but most players seem to use it as an excuse to not learn how to dodge. I don’t expect people to play perfectly, I don’t either and occasionally I go down as well. but it’s a joke when the PVT guardian goes down constantly for standing around in the big bad red circles while the zerker geared classes survive.
depending on how you define efficiency (in this game I see it as a mix of time taken coupled with downs/deaths/wipes), dps is more important than everything else in the sense that if you really want to focus on only one stat then it should be dps. other stats are more useful when mixed in. a knight/valk/zerker mix for example offers good damage and is a lot less squishy than zerker alone, if someone has trouble with timing dodges. you don’t always have to go full pvt just because you got downed once in zerker gear. if a party is constantly at full health, somone should switch some their clerics gear for something more damaging.
if you ignore time taken completely, then of course efficient means everyone in full clerics gear and healing each other to 100% all the time. maybe a mix of guardians and eles. I assume you then can complete pretty much every dungeon in 2x-3x the normal time with zero downs.

Kemina.7812:

Meters are bad – they make a game community horrible and toxic. I am a six year veteran of WoW and I can honestly say that the people who look at/spam meter readings are the most unpleasant and obnoxious jerks in that game, as they would be in this one.
If meters were allowed in this game, I would like to see a checkbox for pugs, so that people could choose not not group with any running such a thing.

You realize that these people already exist within GW2 right? PING GEAR $$$$ GET KICKED IF NOOB!!!!!

If meters were added, I would ignore those people just like I do now. Nothing changes on that front. The only thing that would change is that I would now have some quantifiable means to judge my own performance and strive to be better.

The problem with DPS meters is that there is no way to account for everything. The 5 sec fear that stops the incoming DPS from the mops/boss. The entangle that stops the boss/mops from moving for 3-8 seconds which allows others CD’s to expire. The interrupt/knock downs that stop incoming DPS. These all count towards a quick and successful run but have no place to show up in a meter.

There are many utility skills that benefit the entire party, but lowers that person’s DPS, but with meters, most would be ignoring the utility skills in order to make sure they appear in the top of the DPS chart.

Don’t worry about it, as it won’t happen. You can already see what you do for damage on the screen. If you think you can get bigger numbers, then try to do so. If you think you can get the numbers to pop up more frequently, then try to do so. The information is there to get an idea of where you are at but it’s up to you to figure out if you can improve upon it or not.

This game encourages a kind of “play how you like” environment and a dps meter, so that other people can see your dps, is a leap backwards. Despite the “play how you like” mindset, the game is not balanced and there is already too much min/maxing going on. Too much ‘optimal builds’.

Also, as been mentioned, if you are the ‘go-to rez’ person, then your dps will be lacking because you are reviving. Yet, you keeping them on their feet is a major contribution to the performance of the team.

Then there is tanking. If you are the one being focused, your dps will suffer as you focus on surviving.

Then there are those that bring CC over damage or those that bring boons and heals for the party.

It doesn’t matter what gear they have. It doesn’t matter what damage they do.

What matters is how they are playing and the best way to see that is by simply paying attention to what they are doing and when.

Are they dodging the big attacks that are easily seen coming? Or are they eating that attack and have to revived every 20 seconds?

Are they keeping the boss focused on them and surviving?

Are they always reviving a downed teamate?

Are they the reason you have half a dozen boons up on you?

And most importantly, is the team getting through the boss fights, and thus through the dungeon, with little to no wipes happening? In other words, is the team winning?

DPS meters are only for players with an exclusionary and elitest mindset. Of course this type of player doesn’t exist already in game and will only emerge with the implementation of tools like dps meters.

We should also get rid of in-game chat. That only facilitates rudeness and discrimination among players, and serves no other productive purpose.

Ya know, the more I think about it, the less I like meters. In my first post I said that personal damage meters would be fine because it would let me fine tune my build. However, that will eventually lead to the highest-dps-meta-build-that-must-be-brought. In other words, even personal meters would prove which builds are the highest dps, and therefor would lead to “engineer must be ’nades or kick” or “SB ranger or kick” etc. Which would water down the variety this game tries to bring.

Marcus Greythorne.6843:

a lot of DPS = good player isn’t true at all.

1.) You would have to take Berserker gear to get most dps. This would mean that you sacrifice defensive stats and people will have to defend you or pick you up if you go down. Yes, you can be a good player and avoid all that damage, but it can also mean that you have too much emphasis on keeping yourself alive than helping other players.

2.) Good players help other players during battle. Period.

3.) GW2s skill-system isn’t based on full-dps. Each Weapon has different skills with different purposes. Spamming 1 & 2 and therefore doing most damage doesn’t mean that you are a good player. Using 3, 4, 5 and 6-10 in the right situations makes you a good player.

so DPS-meters? Hell no!!

Tend to agree wholeheartedly! Good players aren’t just there for themselves and aren’t there calling people names if they happen to fall alot. Team means team. If you can’t understand that and think that the broken loot system and the need for MF in this title is any indication of a players character you’re missing the reality of the situation.

Meters won’t do anything to prevent anything, they will be abused as they have been for years in mmos that use them. Just like gearscore, just like every other mod like this. It’s not the solution. And people who claim that it’s the leeches causing trouble because they don’t want to be part of a team in a dungeon and help their fellow team members shouldn’t be playing in a team setting in the first place period.

Scrambles.2604:

DPS meters are only for players with an exclusionary and elitest mindset. Of course this type of player doesn’t exist already in game and will only emerge with the implementation of tools like dps meters.

We should also get rid of in-game chat. That only facilitates rudeness and discrimination among players, and serves no other productive purpose.

Uhm yeah. The leetists and exclusionary players have been in the game and growing in numbers ever since Nov 2012 when they switched from an open world focus to an all dungeon focus in this game. I and many like me who were attracted to this game prelaunch with promises of open world being the true focus of the game warned everyone this would happen and here we are watching it unfold one thing after another, meanwhile the community suffers and so does the game.

Definitely needs personal dps meters for testing builds and traits. I’m surprised they don’t at least have the test dummy like in GW1, because the current PvE test dummies in lion’s arch are pretty much useless.

For people who actually like improving, testing optimal builds, and running efficiently, dps meters are a good way to test various builds, weapons, etc. There are other methods that are more annoying, like recording videos and timing things like I currently do.

Not having a dps meter isn’t going to make people not test things, min-max, etc. This game is already mature enough where people have figured out some optimal builds for things.

Namu.5712:

Not very good friends then if a few artificial numbers caused a lash out between you.

if someone on my team or one of my friends has bad numbers I have suggestions for them to bring up their numbers I dont castrate my friends for poor dps. If we were successful on the run thats all that matters. If we failed hard for hours then its time to look at how we are playing and reacting to mechanics.

Some of you are making over the top exaggeration’s to very specific scenarios that dont really happen very often at all….. especially between friends, thats how I know your full of crap.

They were great friends but over a game and we didn’t know each other for real. We always ran the same events for months and knew what we were doing, but as soon as we started to measure DPS everyone got selfish, including me. We all wanted to be the best because we didn’t want to feel useless, and imo that’s a status that a DPS meter creates.

Anyone that isn’t top 2 is considered a waste of space cause there will be someone better and while some people wont point that out, from experience in WoW etc where there are meters, the majority will use it to judge others. Hell, even now most of the runs you see on GW2LFG look for zerker builds, what do you expect to happen if they add a meter to judge DPS?

The only people who agree with this would be the people happy with elitists breathing down their neck. While I used like being the best and numbers showing I was the best, it took a lot to get to that. I don’t want this game to be a job, I want to play this game when I have some free time, where I have little worries to whether I perform at my best or not. If I constantly have to stay up to date with gear etc or else I get “fired” it will certainly feel more like a job, and I along with a lot of others do not want that at all. It is also against the direction of this game. ANet seem to want to keep this game away from all that.

DPS meters might also give us enough data to be able to quantify the lack of balance between professions….maybe a tool that ANet do not want us to have access to so easily.

Jaall.3420:

Namu.5712:

Not very good friends then if a few artificial numbers caused a lash out between you.

if someone on my team or one of my friends has bad numbers I have suggestions for them to bring up their numbers I dont castrate my friends for poor dps. If we were successful on the run thats all that matters. If we failed hard for hours then its time to look at how we are playing and reacting to mechanics.

Some of you are making over the top exaggeration’s to very specific scenarios that dont really happen very often at all….. especially between friends, thats how I know your full of crap.

They were great friends but over a game and we didn’t know each other for real. We always ran the same events for months and knew what we were doing, but as soon as we started to measure DPS everyone got selfish, including me. We all wanted to be the best because we didn’t want to feel useless, and imo that’s a status that a DPS meter creates.

Anyone that isn’t top 2 is considered a waste of space cause there will be someone better and while some people wont point that out, from experience in WoW etc where there are meters, the majority will use it to judge others. Hell, even now most of the runs you see on GW2LFG look for zerker builds, what do you expect to happen if they add a meter to judge DPS?

The only people who agree with this would be the people happy with elitists breathing down their neck. While I used like being the best and numbers showing I was the best, it took a lot to get to that. I don’t want this game to be a job, I want to play this game when I have some free time, where I have little worries to whether I perform at my best or not. If I constantly have to stay up to date with gear etc or else I get “fired” it will certainly feel more like a job, and I along with a lot of others do not want that at all. It is also against the direction of this game. ANet seem to want to keep this game away from all that.

Another vote for a way to see personal DPS, against seeing other people’s DPS. I just had way too many bad experiences with DPS counters in the game-that-begins-with-W, I’d rather keep them out of GW2 if possible (just like a way to check other people’s gears… you want to know what skin is that, just ask).

It’s true that some people will find away to be elitists (the whole “link your gear” thing that is happening sometimes)… heck, in The Secret World I remember laughing at people that were looking for more for a dungeon and added “only XXXX power or more”… but really the only way to get that amount of power they were asking was to already have full gear from that dungeon.. some people will be elitists, that can’t be avoided, but I’d rather not giving them more tools for it.

Kemina.7812:

Sorry, but your whole attitude of have to get it done fast and have to see others stats/gear/traits reeks of immaturity and gogogo kiddie – also, a large portion of said kiddies are your age or thereabouts in any game I have played. I have a good 20 years on you and plenty of MMO experience to know that elitism and people who worry to excess about carrying others are what makes a game not fun for the general playerbase. If you want to play with like minded people, find an appropriate guild – let people who want to pug things enjoy themselves however they like – this would accommodate both playstyles, no? No one should be able to dictate how it should be done on a pug, or be able to demean or belittle them based on meters or gear checks.

ok, you keep insulting me without adding any real argument. maturity has not much to do with age, seems even 20 years more don’t really help.
I’ll try to explain it one last time.
I like to pug, I get to know new people and most of the time I don’t care much about their setup. sometimes though I want a fast and smooth run, without constant wipes and having to explain bosses etc. for those runs I clearly state some rules in my lfg posts (something along the lines ‘lfXm p?, exp only, no mf except food/infusion, no tanks’). now you tell my I have no right to specify what kind of people I’m looking for because.. why again? because my post would instantly destroy all the fun you can have in the game? you know you could just ignore such posts. if I join a group without any predefined rules I won’t complain if someone is running a dungeon for the first time. I also won’t join groups just to troll them, unlike lots of other players (like those in mf gear who join groups asking specifically for no mf gear). I don’t diminish the fun you can have in your game, but I do ask for the courtesy of you not diminishing my experience either.
the developers clearly stated they wan’t a ‘play the way you like’ philosophy. I don’t hinder you or anyone playing the way they like, but you seem intent on stopping me from playing the way I like just because it’s not the same as yours?
you know, in real life, we’d call that discrimination.
btw: the only one belittling anyone is you. I don’t belittle players because their skill is not on my level, if you’d put your ego and emotions aside it’s pretty easy to see who is better and who is worse than you. I just don’t want to play every dungeon with people far below my level (or above mine either, I don’t like slowing others down). I like running story mode dungeons with a woman out of my guild, but we both know most explo modes are just too hard for her. and unlike you, she doesn’t want to force me to run the harder dungeons together, and I don’t force her to learn to swap weapons and dodge if she doesn’t ask for advice. it’s the thing called mutual respect you very clearly lack.

Oranisagu.3706:

Kemina.7812:

Sorry, but your whole attitude of have to get it done fast and have to see others stats/gear/traits reeks of immaturity and gogogo kiddie – also, a large portion of said kiddies are your age or thereabouts in any game I have played. I have a good 20 years on you and plenty of MMO experience to know that elitism and people who worry to excess about carrying others are what makes a game not fun for the general playerbase. If you want to play with like minded people, find an appropriate guild – let people who want to pug things enjoy themselves however they like – this would accommodate both playstyles, no? No one should be able to dictate how it should be done on a pug, or be able to demean or belittle them based on meters or gear checks.

ok, you keep insulting me without adding any real argument. maturity has not much to do with age, seems even 20 years more don’t really help.
I’ll try to explain it one last time.
I like to pug, I get to know new people and most of the time I don’t care much about their setup. sometimes though I want a fast and smooth run, without constant wipes and having to explain bosses etc. for those runs I clearly state some rules in my lfg posts (something along the lines ‘lfXm p?, exp only, no mf except food/infusion, no tanks’). now you tell my I have no right to specify what kind of people I’m looking for because.. why again? because my post would instantly destroy all the fun you can have in the game? you know you could just ignore such posts. if I join a group without any predefined rules I won’t complain if someone is running a dungeon for the first time. I also won’t join groups just to troll them, unlike lots of other players (like those in mf gear who join groups asking specifically for no mf gear). I don’t diminish the fun you can have in your game, but I do ask for the courtesy of you not diminishing my experience either.
the developers clearly stated they wan’t a ‘play the way you like’ philosophy. I don’t hinder you or anyone playing the way they like, but you seem intent on stopping me from playing the way I like just because it’s not the same as yours?
you know, in real life, we’d call that discrimination.
btw: the only one belittling anyone is you. I don’t belittle players because their skill is not on my level, if you’d put your ego and emotions aside it’s pretty easy to see who is better and who is worse than you. I just don’t want to play every dungeon with people far below my level (or above mine either, I don’t like slowing others down). I like running story mode dungeons with a woman out of my guild, but we both know most explo modes are just too hard for her. and unlike you, she doesn’t want to force me to run the harder dungeons together, and I don’t force her to learn to swap weapons and dodge if she doesn’t ask for advice. it’s the thing called mutual respect you very clearly lack.

Ohh, you absolutely should have the right to specify what you are looking for in a group – you absolutely should not be able to inspect people or see their damage output because giving people the ability to do so will make the experience worse for players in whole.
I wish you all success in finding people who will abide by your rules, since apparently you assume you are some sort of leader, Mr. One of Five

Kemina.7812:

Ohh, you absolutely should have the right to specify what you are looking for in a group – you absolutely should not be able to inspect people or see their damage output because giving people the ability to do so will make the experience worse for players in whole.
I wish you all success in finding people who will abide by your rules, since apparently you assume you are some sort of leader, Mr. One of Five

which still means you want me to deny my right to play with likeminded people without others joining just to profit of the work of the rest of the group.

it might come as a big surprise to you, but I actually find groups very easily when using such specifications. the problem starts when we are 4 people who all want to do a dungeon run with these exact specifications and the fifth person to join is a troll who thinks he can hang back and let us do the work. I’m tempted to say a person like you.

this is why I said I want the ability to SHARE my gear/build. I never said it should be shared by default. but a group with clear specifications can ask for everyone to share their setup and all players can have a good time, without anyone trying to ruin it for them.

your claims the ability to share each others builds would make the game worse for the whole playerbase are pretty baseless. there will always be lots of players who just like to play casually. they won’t share their setup nor will they ask you to do so. if someone asks, you know they have different expectations and you can part ways without wasting each others time.
immature players (of any age, even if they are 50) who only insult others for their views will always exist. adding or removing features won’t make them any more intelligent or respectful.

Oranisagu.3706:

it might come as a big surprise to you, but I actually find groups very easily when using such specifications. the problem starts when we are 4 people who all want to do a dungeon run with these exact specifications and the fifth person to join is a troll who thinks he can hang back and let us do the work. I’m tempted to say a person like you.

this is why I said I want the ability to SHARE my gear/build. I never said it should be shared by default. but a group with clear specifications can ask for everyone to share their setup and all players can have a good time, without anyone trying to ruin it for them.

So if you share your gear/build, what would prevent the same "troll" from joining? You know the answer: nothing. All that will happen is that he won’t share his info, which means you’ll reject him. Which means you’ll reject anybody, no matter if it’s a troll or just a random nice player with bad gear. That’s why it breeds elitism. I’m tempted to say: it only benefits people like you.

Iruwen.3164:

So if you share your gear/build, what would prevent the same “troll” from joining? You know the answer: nothing. All that will happen is that he won’t share his info, which means you’ll reject him. Which means you’ll reject anybody, no matter if it’s a troll or just a random nice player with bad gear. That’s why it breeds elitism. I’m tempted to say: it only benefits people like you.

if I specify gear sharing is necessary, anyone who joins knows this beforehand and not sharing would be pretty pointless, so I don’t really get your point.
also, I’ve seen groups which said ping gear and someone in greens/yellows joined. guess what, he was honest, posted the gear and he didn’t get rejected and nobody asked to kick him. he had decent gear with useful stats, that’s all that mattered to the group initiator (wasn’t me). he just didn’t want MF leeches, that’s all.

the problem with pinging gear is how easily it can be faked to grief people who’d like to make a run under certain conditions. you can ping any piece of equip in your inventory. sharing your setup (without the ability to turn it off until you leave the group) would only change one thing: people who ask for specific gear can’t be trolled by griefers anymore. it does in no way affect you if you don’t want to use this feature.
leaving such a feature out only supports griefers – is THAT really the playerbase you’d like to support? keep in mind the so called elitists will not bother you if you don’t try to join their group under false pretenses. for every dungeon, even CoF except p1, there are more groups without specific requirements than those with. this won’t change because of an easier and more reliable way to share gear/build.

as always, some features will only benefit a small part of the player base. for example sPvP or tPvP. if you don’t play it, any update to it will not benefit you in the slightest. you’re implying that’s reason enough for it to not receive any updates anymore. do updates to wvw breed wvwlers? I don’t know, maybe more people try it out. those who don’t like it will go away again. a feature doesn’t breed players or mindets, unless it’s something that has been sorely missed and thus pulled more people in.

I fully agree gear sharing is something not everybody will use or have use for, but the notion it would magically make all players ravaging idiots who insult people for their gear choice is unsubstantiated and in my opinion rather silly.

it comes down to one thing: some groups play dungeons in order to do things together, as a group (such as my guild). some, however, only play them to “farm” them.

in the case of the first group, we don’t care WHAT you play when you go in, only that you play it well and be a team player. do we care if that “playing it well” takes a few runs for you to get figured out? nope. will we keep on, and keep on, rezzing you, and working with you to figure out what best suits your playstyle? you betcha! we’ve done runs with every conceivable mix of players out there — and we’ve beaten the dungeon.

in the second group, the only thing that matters is a fast clear so that they can run it again, and again, and again. these are the folk who’ve sat down with the spreadsheet and done their best to determine the “only optimal” build for a profession, and the “only optimal” group build, thus they’re often looking for this-type mez or that-type warrior and so on.

i’ve now played through every single profession. i’ve built my own builds for each of my characters that reflects MY playstyle, and i get through the dungeons without being downed more than a few times, after i’ve gotten things settled, worked out, and geared. some of my characters (such as my thief) i play for pure damage/survivability, but amazingly she has 0 toughness in her traits and 0 stealth in her skills. she kicks kitten i play other characters, such as my guardian, for heavy damage/surv combined with excellent support for my group — same with my engi. the synergy in my guild’s group runs is fantastic, and our ability to take on anything and overcome it is thrilling.

do we need a damage meter to achieve this? nope. for you farmers? keep on with your spreadsheets and your hopes of in-game support for your elitist tendencies — but players like myself, my guild, and so many others will keep on arguing against it, and keep on proving, over and over, that any profession can be played, and played well, to work within any grouping made.

Oranisagu.3706:

I fully agree gear sharing is something not everybody will use or have use for, but the notion it would magically make all players ravaging idiots who insult people for their gear choice is unsubstantiated and in my opinion rather silly.

So you never played WoW? It doesn’t really matter if you personally would actually use it wisely; what matters is what a majority of people would do. And I can promise that the amount of people trying to sneak into a group by giving false informationen is totally negligible compared to those rejecting people for not having the right setup. Yeah, people have been rejected not only for having bad, but also for having the wrong gear or spec according to what the group leader thought was right ("OMG shadow priest? NO WAY!")
WoW generally is a good (negative) example for what happens when you give out too much informationen, DPS meters, gear checks, hostile player names and so on.
That’s a bit similar to people claiming that removing the AE cap would make WvW better - no it wouldn’t, which can be seen by looking at any other MMO (guess what, WoW for example) that tried this and finally implemented some kind of cap or DR.
You can’t change how people are, and MMOs unfortunately are full of... well, something that would probably be censored.

I can get behind meters:

Number of enemies left alive:
Number of players left alive:

Only sodding things that matter.