Guild Wars 2

Dye colors should look consistent VISUALLY across armor/items—so that we can color match them. We like to mix and match armor/items for more visual variety. And when the colors don’t match, we tend to avoid combining them.

The explanation that dye affects different materials differently is lame. This is a game. Make color matching work right.

BTW: This was the same bad design choice from the first GW, and I’m really disappointed to see the same thing happening again in GW2.

You can make them match by choosing different shades, or a shade of the same color suited to that specific material. You just have to play with it.

The explanation that dye affects different materials differently is lame. This is a game. Make color matching work right.

But this is an explanation, not an excuse. The way dyes work is because the “normal” map of the texture of each skin is different. Different materials look different, this is a fact. There’s not one texture variation for every possible combination of dyes. Dyes are applied to a base texture that is black and white and mapped so the color goes where it is supposed to. It is not configured on a per-dye basis.

If an armor has a material intended to look like smooth cloth, and another area intended to look like smooth metal, no matter what color you put on it, it’s going to look different than that same color would on rough metal or on a more “textured” cloth.

Imagine you have full Jute armor. The colors are consistent. Imagine you have full featherd armor. The colors are consistent. But both armors have different material textures on their normal maps. So when you mix and match, the colors aren’t as consistent.

What you’re asking is for dye colors to work completely differently, not be extremely easily applicable to any and all new armor, and instead to be reconfigured, one by one, by hand, to work differently with an entirely new system for dyeing to keep the color identical across different materials on the many, many models of armor in-game. Each and every dye.

Not reasonable. Get over it and move on. Dyes come in so many variations for a reason. Some are near identical when used on the same material, but quite different on different pieces. There are more than enough to solve your problem by simply getting more dyes.

WeLoveKanjimari.6725:

The explanation that dye affects different materials differently is lame. This is a game. Make color matching work right.

But this is an explanation, not an excuse. The way dyes work is because the “normal” map of the texture of each skin is different. Different materials look different, this is a fact. There’s not one texture variation for every possible combination of dyes. Dyes are applied to a base texture that is black and white and mapped so the color goes where it is supposed to. It is not configured on a per-dye basis.

If an armor has a material intended to look like smooth cloth, and another area intended to look like smooth metal, no matter what color you put on it, it’s going to look different than that same color would on rough metal or on a more “textured” cloth.

Imagine you have full Jute armor. The colors are consistent. Imagine you have full featherd armor. The colors are consistent. But both armors have different material textures on their normal maps. So when you mix and match, the colors aren’t as consistent.

What you’re asking is for dye colors to work completely differently, not be extremely easily applicable to any and all new armor, and instead to be reconfigured, one by one, by hand, to work differently with an entirely new system for dyeing to keep the color identical across different materials on the many, many models of armor in-game. Each and every dye.

Not reasonable. Get over it and move on. Dyes come in so many variations for a reason. Some are near identical when used on the same material, but quite different on different pieces. There are more than enough to solve your problem by simply getting more dyes.

Whilst I agree that dyes in reality would possibly look different between different material types, to imply that one shade is consistent in the game when applied to all armour pieces of the same material type is incorrect.

I am a cloth wearer. I wear completely light armour. Therefore, by the logic you suggest there should be a consistency when I apply a particular shade to each piece of my “cloth” armour. But it isn’t consistent. A shade that I apply to my chest will be a particular shade, but when I apply it to my “legs” item, the shade can differ even though it’s the same dye colour.

This doesn’t happen in all circumstances, just some. I’ve checked with friends who agree. Which infers that there isn’t just a general “if it’s made of jute, then this shade looks like this” situation, I think it’s more detailed than that.

Which whilst to a designer it may be the right way to do things, to a player is a royal pain in the backside when trying to colour match.

I am a cloth wearer. I wear completely light armour. Therefore, by the logic you suggest there should be a consistency when I apply a particular shade to each piece of my “cloth” armour.

You completely, 10,000% misunderstand what I mean by “Material”.

Jute armor is meant to look different than generic cloth armor. Both are light armor, yes. Both are cloth armor, yes. But different armor types have different material textures. Those textures + the dye color = slightly differing shades.

The actual texture for the armor only contains the texture (details) and the shading. Colors are all added later. Dyes are all added in this manner. Each armor has its own unique texturing. Since that texturing is not identical across the board, two different pieces of light armor are GOING TO LOOK DIFFERENT.

This texture colored with this hue looks VERY DIFFERENT from this texture with the EXACT SAME COLOR applied.

This is how dyes work.

They are applied to a base texture. What you are asking for is for the system to work entirely differently on a dye-by-dye and texture-by-texture basis.

It’s not going to happen.

WeLoveKanjimari.6725:

I am a cloth wearer. I wear completely light armour. Therefore, by the logic you suggest there should be a consistency when I apply a particular shade to each piece of my “cloth” armour.

You completely, 10,000% misunderstand what I mean by “Material”.

Jute armor is meant to look different than generic cloth armor. Both are light armor, yes. Both are cloth armor, yes. But different armor types have different material textures. Those textures + the dye color = slightly differing shades.

The actual texture for the armor only contains the texture (details) and the shading. Colors are all added later. Dyes are all added in this manner. Each armor has its own unique texturing. Since that texturing is not identical across the board, two different pieces of light armor are GOING TO LOOK DIFFERENT.

No. I understand you completely. Like I said, to a designer it MAY be the right way to do things, but from a players perspective it’s a pain to try to match the colours.

But I don’t completely agree with your generalisation that two different pieces of light armour would have to look different (which seems to be what you are inferring). In reality dyes applied to two pieces of cloth, or two pieces of metal COULD look very similar, it depends on the material being used.

The fact is that sometimes in MMO’s realism must take a backseat to what is considered to be “fun”. Seriously, would YOU really care if the shade of a particular dye used on Jute armour didn’t look different if applied to Silk armour? I know I wouldn’t. All I would care is that the shade is consistent when applied to all pieces of the same “general” material type.

Reread my post. I edited it.

They HAVE to look different. You do NOT understand at all. It is not physically possible to have a dynamic 3-part dye system on every single piece of armor without it working like this. Doing it differently would be far too much work for far too small of a problem.

WeLoveKanjimari.6725:

Reread my post. I edited it.

They HAVE to look different. You do NOT understand at all. It is not physically possible to have a dynamic 3-part dye system on every single piece of armor without it working like this. Doing it differently would be far too much work for far too small of a problem.

Why do they HAVE to look different? Because a designer said so?

Remember we’re talking about non-tangible items here, pixels on a screen. Cloth items of differing material types could be all the same shade when a dye is applied to them, or completely different, it’s entirely up to the devs.

So no, they don’t HAVE to look different. It comes purely down to a design choice.

Why do they HAVE to look different? Because a designer said so?

Okay, so, what? You want all armor to have the exact same material texture on them in all cases?

You realize what that would mean, right?

Instead of the cloth parts of this armor looking like cloth , it would look like plastic. Instead of the metal parts looking like metal, itw ould look like plastic. INstead of the leather part looking like leather, it would look like plastic.

The texture of the armor has various pieces.

There’s a piece that determines the shading. There’s a piece that determines the material. There’s a piece that determines where colors are applied.

A piece of metal armor looks like metal because the texture looks like metal. A piece of cloth armor is obviously cloth because of its cloth texture. If you want BOTH of those armors to present the EXACT SAME HUE when a dye is applied, they have to have, absolutely have to have, as a matter of how it freaking works, the exact same texture.

I just explained this.

My two textures are dyed the same color. They look different because they are different textures. It is the same reason a red shirt might look different than red jeans. It is the same reason white jeans look slightly grey but a white shirt is pure white. It is the same reason spraypaint on wood looks different than the same spraypaint on a different type of wood.

The color is an overlay.

If the color were not an overlay, each color texture would be done by hand, one by one, for every dye, for every armor, for every possible combination of colors.

That. Is not. Reasonable.

Here is a leather texture.

Here is a wool texture.

Here is a metal texture.

If you apply teh exact same color to these, each one is going to look a little different.

You cannot have armor with various types of textures (cloth, metal, leather, etc) apply a specific hue (dye) and look identical without every single one being redone by hand. The system does not work taht way. Making it work that way is an unbelievably huge task.

WeLoveKanjimari.6725:

Here is a leather texture.

Here is a wool texture.

Here is a metal texture.

If you apply teh exact same color to these, each one is going to look a little different.

You cannot have armor with various types of textures (cloth, metal, leather, etc) apply a specific hue (dye) and look identical without every single one being redone by hand. The system does not work taht way. Making it work that way is an unbelievably huge task.

Firstly, each of those examples are not in game textures.

Secondly, how do you know what the devs are capable of doing or not doing? Again, I come back to what I said earlier, we are talking about pixels on a screen here. They could use ANY texture they like for ANYTHING and call it whatever they choose. A “silk” item doesn’t have to have the texture of silk if (to the naked eye) there is little variation between silk and some other texture that is used in the game.

For example: Let’s assume that there are two items of the same design, but use noticably different textures. One is “Gossamer” and one is “Silk”.

In theory, they could in fact “apply” the same texture to both items and thus achieve the same dye shade when a dye is applied to either. My point here is that you appear to be assuming that a “silk” item must have a different texture than a “gossamer” one. And are therefore arguing that because of this belief the two can never actually disply the same shade of colour when the same dye is applied to both.

This is how it works.

You cannot use “I am ignorant of how texturing video games works, therefore, you couldn’t possibly know, either” as an argument. This is just how it works. This is like me telling you that a light switch works by closing or opening a circuit allowing electricity to flow or stopping it from flowing, and you saying “Well I don’t know that’s how it works, therefore, you’re not right, and there’s no way you ever could be”.

The dyes are a color applied to a base texture. This is how it works. Because of this, the only way to ensure they are exactly identical is to tweak the way each dye works on any given dye slot on any given piece of any given armor on a dye-by-dye basis.

This is not going to happen.

Lets do a quick test here to prove my point. Included in this post is an image of my own character. Now, can you tell just by looking at the textures what material the armour is made from? I’d guess probably not. And that’s my point.

It could be silk, could be gossamer, it could be woven from the strands of hair taken from a unicorns mane.

Whilst a developer MAY think it’s great to use different (yet only slightly) textures between armour sets. In reality the average player wouldn’t notice the difference if the textures were the same. HOWEVER, what they will notice more is a difference when the same shade of dye results in different colour variations because the textures are different (based on your own explanations).

Which brings me back to what I said earlier, sometimes “realism” must take a back seat to “fun”. If the designs are different between armour sets, is it really a big problem if the textures were similar and thus resulted in close matching colours when dyes are applied?

I don’t think it would. I wouldn’t care if two designs used the same texture. Only that the design of the armour looked good and I achieved colour matching between my armour pieces.

Note: I DO agree that it would be essentially ridiculous to apply the same texture to cloth, medium OR heavy armour. However, that’s not what I’m talking about. When you’re talking about items of the same armour type (e.g. light), I don’t think it’s as big an issue to use the same / similar texture across the board in order to achieve very similar results when a player uses a “dye” on the items. Because in the end, I don’t think the “average player” cares as much about the texture, than they do about the overall design of the armour. So long as a cloth item looks reasonably like it’s made of cloth, that’s all that matters. Of course, that’s just my opinion.

WeLove, perhaps if you did less “education” (which I would actually call something else) whilst trying to understand more about the opposing viewpoint, then that might actually help you in the long run.

Regardless of how much someone may want to defend the developers design choices on what material textures they used and where they used them, the fact is that some combinations of items of the same armour type result in colour variations even though the same dye is used.

And irrespective of your constant repeating of the same argument, I DO understand what happens when you apply the same colour to different textures. But you are failing to listen to the question I have been posing to you.

Like I said earlier, whilst such a design choice may be “realistic”, it’s not necessarily “fun”.

Tarkaroshe.8370:

Regardless of how much someone may want to defend the developers design choices on what material textures they used and where they used them, the fact is that some combinations of items of the same armour type result in colour variations even though the same dye is used.

Do you mean same armour type (as in all light armour, all heavy armour etc) or do you mean same armour set?

I think it is fair to expect all armour within a set to react the same way to the same dye. For example, all Gladiator heavy armour, all Noble medium armour, all Masquerade light armour etc. These should share the same texture / material type and respond the same.

But if you start mix and matching sets (eg Gladiator coat with Draconic legs) then you have to expect differences because these sets will have different textures.

They are upset because they’re mixing two different armor sets with two different textures and getting two different colors, demanding that either all armor textures be normalized and identical or all dyes be redone by hand to work differently depending on which dye slot of which type of armor they’re on so that they all match.

Cernow.3974:

Tarkaroshe.8370:

Regardless of how much someone may want to defend the developers design choices on what material textures they used and where they used them, the fact is that some combinations of items of the same armour type result in colour variations even though the same dye is used.

Do you mean same armour type (as in all light armour, all heavy armour etc) or do you mean same armour set?

I think it is fair to expect all armour within a set to react the same way to the same dye. For example, all Gladiator heavy armour, all Noble medium armour, all Masquerade light armour etc. These should share the same texture / material type and respond the same.

But if you start mix and matching sets (eg Gladiator coat with Draconic legs) then you have to expect differences because these sets will have different textures.

I’m not sure I agree. I mean, if the armour sets are generally of the same materials, for example: metal with bits of leather, then is it unreasonable to expect the metal bits on both armour sets to look very similar when the same colour dye is applied to both?

Sure the leather will perhaps look different to the metal (which is where my argument differs to the OP’s), but surely the bits of the same general material type should be designed to be very close.

WeLoveKanjimari.6725:

They are upset because they’re mixing two different armor sets with two different textures and getting two different colors, demanding that either all armor textures be normalized and identical or all dyes be redone by hand to work differently depending on which dye slot of which type of armor they’re on so that they all match.

Firstly, WeLove, no one is “upset”, please don’t exaggerate.

Secondly, if you think that my argument is the same as the OP’s, then I think you need to re-read the conversation we just had.

Tarkaroshe.8370:

Like I said earlier, whilst such a design choice may be “realistic”, it’s not necessarily “fun”.

But I think realism is fun. So does my opinion then nullify yours?

All seriousness, the realistic aspect to the current system is what helps bring the GW universe alive. Unless you want those cartoon aspects, well, you know where to go. =P

I like the way their are, it will do not make sense if they are equal on whatever surface they are aplicated.

What i would change of the dye system is just one thing, Add more “dye slots” for armors and such, so we can pretty much colour our armors almost completly, from the main plate to the scraps to the heraldic desings, etc. Having a max of 3 slots per armor (if they are 3, cause a lot of parts use only 1 color) is too few =X

Blackmoon.6837:

Tarkaroshe.8370:

Like I said earlier, whilst such a design choice may be “realistic”, it’s not necessarily “fun”.

But I think realism is fun. So does my opinion then nullify yours?

All seriousness, the realistic aspect to the current system is what helps bring the GW universe alive. Unless you want those cartoon aspects, well, you know where to go. =P

A certain degree of realism can possibly add to the level of “fun” that a person experiences, that much is possible.
But there comes a point when designing an MMO whereby too much realism must take a backseat to what is considered as “fun”. That was something that an MMO Game Director once said, and something I happen to agree with.

Let me ask you this, when you’re running past another player, what would catch your eye more: the general design of the armour, or the perhaps very subtle difference in textures? More to the point, would you even notice the different in textures on the armour as you’re running past them?

Just food for thought

Lastly, no, I believe that one persons opinion doesn’t nullify another’s. We are all entitled to voice our own opinions about what we like and dislike. However, there is a big difference between talking about what we like, and then trying to discredit another persons opinion based purely on a dogmatic mindset regarding what can or cannot occur in an MMO.

Tarkaroshe.8370:

I’m not sure I agree. I mean, if the armour sets are generally of the same materials, for example: metal with bits of leather, then is it unreasonable to expect the metal bits on both armour sets to look very similar when the same colour dye is applied to both?

Sure the leather will perhaps look different to the metal (which is where my argument differs to the OP’s), but surely the bits of the same general material type should be designed to be very close.

I think you are trying to simplify things too much. It’s not just a case of metal, cloth, leather. Different metals have different properties, as do different textiles or types of leather.

Just a few examples, compare iron to silver, silk to cotton, hard leather to chamois leather. And so on. Every one of these materials will handle dye differently, handle lighting environments differently etc.

So when you talk of an armour piece being “metal with bits of leather” – what type of metal, what type of leather? Perhaps one chest piece has shiny metal and soft leather but another has dull metal and shiny hard leather. Inevitably they will handle dye differently.

Cernow.3974:

Tarkaroshe.8370:

I’m not sure I agree. I mean, if the armour sets are generally of the same materials, for example: metal with bits of leather, then is it unreasonable to expect the metal bits on both armour sets to look very similar when the same colour dye is applied to both?

Sure the leather will perhaps look different to the metal (which is where my argument differs to the OP’s), but surely the bits of the same general material type should be designed to be very close.

I think you are trying to simplify things too much. It’s not just a case of metal, cloth, leather. Different metals have different properties, as do different textiles or types of leather.

Just a few examples, compare iron to silver, silk to cotton, hard leather to chamois leather. And so on. Every one of these materials will handle dye differently, handle lighting environments differently etc.

So when you talk of an armour piece being “metal with bits of leather” – what type of metal, what type of leather? Perhaps one chest piece has shiny metal and soft leather but another has dull metal and shiny hard leather. Inevitably they will handle dye differently.

In real life, yes, they do indeed have different properties. But, my whole point is: does the metal on one armour set in an MMO have to “react” differently to the metal on another armour set in the same MMO when the same dye is applied to both?

That’s why I refered to “metal bits” because a developer could (conceivably) use the same texture for both armour sets but call them different things, (e.g. one could be called “Mithril”, one could be called “Silver”, and yet both actually use a Silver metal texture). The intended result being that both armour sets end up with the same shade of colour when the same dye is applied to them.

Would anyone notice there wasn’t a difference in materal texture?
More to the point (assuming that the actual designs where different and therefore pleasing) would anyone actually care?

I’m just offering food for thought. Anyhoo, I’ve said my bit. Stay safe.

This is one of the most ridiculous demands I’ve yet seen to be honest. It’s just…. wow

There’s what, 500 shades of dye? You can easily mix and match colours so they are more consistent unless you wear drastically different styles of armour pieces. Get a set of armour rather than different pieces from various sets, problem solved.

The posts WeLoveKanjimari made about how texturing works in games is pretty solid. I suppose unless you’ve worked with texturing or looked into it you wouldn’t know how it generally works in most games.

It’s not realistic to expect the armour to all match exactly there’s hundreds of armour sets in the game. The point of them being sets is so that they are consistent in style, texture and when colour applied.

This isn’t an issue with the game it’s an issue with wanting to have all sets look the same so that non of them are unique just so your dye can match, it’s just well.. silly. It’s much better that each set is more unique in feel so there is more variety rather than everything looking the same.

391 dyes according to the Wiki actually but either way that’s more than enough to find a match for any combo of armors .