Guild Wars 2

Suggestion, introduce recount so people could learn their effectiveness and allow to increase their potential, letting them progress.

So I understand the logic about damage recount making people elitist. Yet I can never thought that as a bad case, in truth an mmo is suppose to be a game about character development, its not a single player rpg where you play for just fun, in mmo you need all the information at your disposal.

But regardless, lets do talk about what would happen if recount would be introduced, after I say my reasons for wanting it… How do you people feel about tanky/healing specs? My personal opinion is that a player is allowed to focus on supporting but just as long as he still contributes to damage. Healing gw2 is not rly a thing, a berserk will often take 6-7 hits just from auto attacks, its not really some thing you can consistently heal up, healing one shots even harder. Of course thats not the case if the people are running power/toughness/vitality, now they will only take 4k hits and have a nice health buffer to allow healing tick enough times to create some very effective health. But in truth, 5 berserker is probably the most defensive combination if every one is running it. The longer you take to do a fight the more damage you will end up taking. Ran 49 fractal with every one berserker (well… it was sort of ideal group… warriors and guardians…) and every thing died fast enough that I did not need to spare much survivability cooldowns while group still offered great support utility like blocks and blinds and stuff.
Now I have nothing against knight, or people who wanna try to min max their support only… But anyways, recount allows for so much. People will be forced to adapt play styles they might not enjoy to appear better on recount, I know. But in doing so they will become better players, basing your survivability on dodging and doing correct tactics should be the way this game works, and not about being able to survive the fail. You fail = you die = you learn = you have more fun.

I am also much in the support of recount because it would allow for people to do great research, mmo’s need theory crafting, they need ways for people to test things out to see how effective their unique builds are and many people know a lot of things don’t work as intended, 10% damage to undead and 10% less damage taken? Na brah, 10% more damage taken, wrong tooltip. Combat log is also horrible at actually showing what killed you.

Many people probs do love the idea of recount for many different reasons, though I assume many people will be way too afraid it will take a way peoples ability to play casually, forcing them in to game play types they would not enjoy, like going full berserk for “kitten meters”. But in truth, if people are aware that recount would prove them as useless players, high chance they are. Please, don’t debate the effectiveness of you healing skills or how many might stacks you grant with your staff. But do call tell me if I’m over the line with recount for other reasons, I do come off like an kitten I guess.

A personal damage meter that no-one else has access to? Sure.

TheDaiBish.9735:

A personal damage meter that no-one else has access to? Sure.

I’ve heard there is one made, but arenanet confirmed that using it would be an offense, as it is a third party software. A personal recount would indeed allow people to be able to learn what stat combinations/skill rotations benefit them more. Albeit, its hard to actually judge effectiveness when you can’t constantly compare it to other people. If every one could see recount people would become aware of situations were they are doing some thing wrong, do it less, and help arenanet seriously balance classes to be more in line with each other.

Ventrue.5731:

TheDaiBish.9735:

A personal damage meter that no-one else has access to? Sure.

I’ve heard there is one made, but arenanet confirmed that using it would be an offense, as it is a third party software. A personal recount would indeed allow people to be able to learn what stat combinations/skill rotations benefit them more. Albeit, its hard to actually judge effectiveness when you can’t constantly compare it to other people. If every one could see recount people would become aware of situations were they are doing some thing wrong, do it less, and help arenanet seriously balance classes to be more in line with each other.

The flip side of that being if everyone can see recount, I’d wager the majority of dungeon runners would kick the person who isn’t doing enough DPS, rather than help them.

Maybe if the recount didn’t actually show the names of the people, instead simply the damage (taken and received) in order of highest to lowest, then whoever is doing the lowest / receiving the highest can evaluate what they’re doing wrong.

If people want to collaborate in number-crunching, they can do so simply by speaking to each other. A shared recount isn’t needed for that.

TheDaiBish.9735:

The flip side of that being if everyone can see recount, I’d wager the majority of dungeon runners would kick the person who isn’t doing enough DPS, rather than help them.

Maybe if the recount didn’t actually show the names of the people, instead simply the damage (taken and received) in order of highest to lowest, then whoever is doing the lowest / receiving the highest can evaluate what they’re doing wrong.

If people want to collaborate in number-crunching, they can do so simply by speaking to each other. A shared recount isn’t needed for that.

Yea… The biggest issue of recount is that it would make people elitist. If the information would be shared it would be very good to show all the blinds created, boons applied, blocks given and all that. Also its a very horrible system that 2 people can kick some one, it should be minimum 3 people vote for a kick. But your idea would have easy work around, I could just see who’s recount increases when only 1 person does damage, then rule him out for when 2 people do damage. What about being able to see every ones recount at the end of run or posted on a website similar to how “world of logs” works for WoW.

Regardless your way too right, yesterday I had a mesmer in fractal, who used only greatsword (ranged weapons do less damage then melee, that always is a fact, and greatsword is single target for mesmers) in power/toughness/vitality gear. Her argument was that I don’t know what damage she does and that its actually very good. Having recount would allow me to kick her, as I did not, I did not argue further admitting defeat.

I don’t wanna sound like a jerk, but try and improve your writing skills, you can say a lot more with less words sometimes

Healing is in a bad spot now imo. The game was made so every class has a way to heal himself, so party heals are weak. Curiously, Protection reduces damage by 33% – that’s so much extra defense that healing again seems to be terrible
So yeah, dealing damage is way more effective than being supportive in most cases

Improving the combat log would be excellent, adding some colors too would help

Ventrue.5731:

HELLruler.4820:

I don’t wanna sound like a jerk, but try and improve your writing skills, you can say a lot more with less words sometimes

Healing is in a bad spot now imo. The game was made so every class has a way to heal himself, so party heals are weak. Curiously, Protection reduces damage by 33% – that’s so much extra defense that healing again seems to be terrible
So yeah, dealing damage is way more effective than being supportive in most cases

Improving the combat log would be excellent, adding some colors too would help

Yea, I always think that if I don’t say everything on my mind I won’t be able to explain what I mean, really sorry about that..
Guardian hammer auto attack can keep up 100% protection, always thought its best way to support on guardian, not staff or mace (lies, best way is greatsword aoe pull in).
But the biggest problem with healing (and self healing) is the way damage is distributed, often its impossible to react to damage, ascalon fractal has mages that aoe for 20k damage fireball and rangers that have a 15k shot, warriors charge for some thing like 17k on me and auto attack me for 6k (i got 11.3k hp as guardian). Its not about lowering the damage but about distributing it better so you can react to it, instead of pre-emtively react to it with dodges and blocks, thats the way your meant to deal with telegraphed attacks ofcourse, not trash damage.

HELLruler.4820:

I don’t wanna sound like a jerk, but try and improve your writing skills, you can say a lot more with less words sometimes

Healing is in a bad spot now imo. The game was made so every class has a way to heal himself, so party heals are weak. Curiously, Protection reduces damage by 33% – that’s so much extra defense that healing again seems to be terrible
So yeah, dealing damage is way more effective than being supportive in most cases

Improving the combat log would be excellent, adding some colors too would help

I personally see healing not has healing, but as a form of reactive damage mitigation alongside other buffs / debuffs (protection reduces, say, 1,000 damage to 666 damage, the spot healing from either skills or the regen buff goes a lot further)

TheDaiBish.9735:

I personally see healing not has healing, but as a form of reactive damage mitigation alongside other buffs / debuffs (protection reduces, say, 1,000 damage to 666 damage, the spot healing from either skills or the regen buff goes a lot further)

Well maybe in fights were damage is 1k thats true, in some dungeons I guess. But in fractals mobs are known to hit 5k auto attack at weakest. And while a damage class can provide weakness or protection, its usually a cleric providing healing. And going cleric would mean that fight is longer, long enough for mobs to do lets say 15% more total damage, and it won’t be equal to the amount cleric would have healed. Going dps how ever would allow for mobs dying faster = less damage taken = less personal cooldowns used. My theory is that recount would kill most cleric builds because they could visibly see damage taken vs healing done.

But it could allow for builds that are berserker with healing at raw values, scaling on healing stat is very poor. Some thing like a guardian who just shares healing virtue/all symbols heal/hammer auto attack for 100% protection and symbol/berserker or knight stats.

TheDaiBish.9735:

Ventrue.5731:

TheDaiBish.9735:

A personal damage meter that no-one else has access to? Sure.

I’ve heard there is one made, but arenanet confirmed that using it would be an offense, as it is a third party software. A personal recount would indeed allow people to be able to learn what stat combinations/skill rotations benefit them more. Albeit, its hard to actually judge effectiveness when you can’t constantly compare it to other people. If every one could see recount people would become aware of situations were they are doing some thing wrong, do it less, and help arenanet seriously balance classes to be more in line with each other.

The flip side of that being if everyone can see recount, I’d wager the majority of dungeon runners would kick the person who isn’t doing enough DPS, rather than help them.

Maybe if the recount didn’t actually show the names of the people, instead simply the damage (taken and received) in order of highest to lowest, then whoever is doing the lowest / receiving the highest can evaluate what they’re doing wrong.

If people want to collaborate in number-crunching, they can do so simply by speaking to each other. A shared recount isn’t needed for that.

guild wars 2 doesnt need a recount. no one does. Recount is one of the most kittened tool ever made. It ruins the game by forcing standards to everyone and limiting people to a single playstyle, look at world of warcraft you cant even play a afflict lock in raid because oooooommmmmggggggg not optimal dps get out. The dev said from the start that they want their content to be accessible to ANYONE making a recount would be against this policies.

I’m a berserker build and I do not approve of this. I have found that if I run a full zerker group I found in the LFG, it’s terrible because half the time the group wipes because someone doesn’t want to admit they don’t know the fights (Why would they? People kick for less.) and they don’t have enough defense to recover from mistakes.

Usually when I run dungeons, or fractals, with my guild we run with 3 or 4 berserkers and then the remaining are more “tanky” built people. We have a tanky shout guardian that sometimes runs with us, and one of our regulars is a cleric’s banner warrior. Yes, her damage is terrible. But the buffs she gives us, and the regen from each of her banners is more than “just a little”.

If recount is ever brought into Guild Wars 2, which I doubt, I’ll be very disappointed. I’m not worried about being kicked from groups, as I said my build is pure damage. But I don’t want even more elitist jerks in this game stroking their kittens.

Keelan.7498:

I’m a berserker build and I do not approve of this. I have found that if I run a full zerker group I found in the LFG, it’s terrible because half the time the group wipes because someone doesn’t want to admit they don’t know the fights (Why would they? People kick for less.) and they don’t have enough defense to recover from mistakes.

Usually when I run dungeons, or fractals, with my guild we run with 3 or 4 berserkers and then the remaining are more “tanky” built people. We have a tanky shout guardian that sometimes runs with us, and one of our regulars is a cleric’s banner warrior. Yes, her damage is terrible. But the buffs she gives us, and the regen from each of her banners is more than “just a little”.

If recount is ever brought into Guild Wars 2, which I doubt, I’ll be very disappointed. I’m not worried about being kicked from groups, as I said my build is pure damage. But I don’t want even more elitist jerks in this game stroking their kittens.

I have read massive post talking about banner warriors… Going cleric on warrior who has banners for regen is pointless because a different class could come on cleric and actually have more then 1 source of healing. While this warrior cleric does terrible damage for sake of 200 hp regen ever 1 sec. A guardian cleric with mace can run 200hp/s from regen, 180hp/s from healing virtue share and around 140hp/s? from symbols heal allies while also providing blocks and blinds. So the the guard will heal above 500 a sec while the warrior only 200. That warrior could be berzerk and still banner build with 130hp a sec, is it worth doing bad damage for sake of 70hp/s? And you can go knight and have decent damage and defense. I disagree entirely that you need to be tanky to provide support to the group.

And this is what I mean, its not really a preference to play stile, but people don’t know that they are ineffective. I don’t want to be mean, but your friend is dead weight, and its not a fault of hers, the game is at fault for not providing tools to know what is broken and what is correct.

Ventrue, I believe you have sufficiently illustrated why Public Recount would be a horrible idea. Thanks for pretending to be really elitist so everyone knows what we’re talking about.

Temariah.9372:

Ventrue, I believe you have sufficiently illustrated why Public Recount would be a horrible idea. Thanks for pretending to be really elitist so everyone knows what we’re talking about.

The recount would allow players to see dead weight, I understand your passive aggressive comment talks about how I pointed that out. But I am saying that arenanet would be forced to recreate builds so dead weight would not be a thing. There are redundant specs, if people would be able to see that they would have to fix that. I will repeat, its games fault for creating the environment, not the players for not knowing whats effective.

I don’t think that fostering an elitist community would be beneficial to anyone. I think a personal recount would be just fine, allowing people who wish to optimize to do so and allowing anyone else to play the game in a relatively safe environment.

In response to you, Ventrue, people can already easily recognize dead weight pretty easily I feel. I agree that all builds should be pretty successful, and I think that the majority of them are successful enough in the vast majority of content. The people that are dead weight are dead weight because they don’t understand mechanics or their skills well enough, not because of the builds themselves, in my humble opinion.

Sure, maybe some builds are “better” than others, and maybe some builds are similar, but if someone would rather be a Cleric Banner warrior than a Guardian then that’s their choice, and I don’t think it’s very nice of you to try and convince them that it’s a bad choice.

I wouldn’t mind this. But I would like it to include healing done, boons applied, damage mitigated and other useful things for trying out a build. Not everyone wants to just see how much l337deeps they do, even if the game seems to favor teams of glass cannons.