Guild Wars 2

…and everything that refills dodge.

I think the thing that trivialises this game more than anything is the frequency in which dodges are available.

Content could be made harder, skill ceilings would be raised and it would generally teach better habits of play.

Through limiting dodges it also means it’s easier to provide content in which there is more damage than can be avoided and thus allows build diversity in PvE and would help kill the ‘berserker or go home’ meta(it may mean tweaking of skills with dodges built in).

Obviously this would affect how classes are balanced and as such it would need to be addressed accordingly. However I believe a lot of the ‘cheese’ that comes with certain builds comes from high vigor uptime.

What are your opinions?

As someone who runs a moderately tanky guardian build I still utilize vigor and dodging to it’s fullest extent. I would not want to see it go.

I dunno. I like dodging. I wish the game had unlimited dodges. It’s just funner for me. But I really like stylish action games so maybe it’s just me.
For me it creates a funner game. It feels more alive and moving.

I’m not sure about it killing berserker builds. I mean, wouldn’t it just stick vitality builds in it’s place? We’d be in the same predicament just with a different name.

TL;DR
OP got pwnd by a thief.

I just posted this in another thread.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Guild-wars-2-combat-where-is-my-AI-at/first#post3431129

Vigor should not be removed. However there should be more Weakness and Immobilize to counter dodging.

How about NOOOO?

The reason I suggest this is not to remove the ‘fun’ from the game, but instead actually make it so that some content is actually challenging and also helps to promote build diversity.

As it happens my main is actually a thief, I simply don’t think it’s a good style of play or mechanic.

I understand turtle, but as it stands actually landing an immobilise on certain classes is just so difficult and not through any skill play. Simply just from dodging because again they are at full endurance.

It’s only an opinion of mine.

If you want to make things more challenging, why not just not use Vigor?

One of the things I really like in GW2 is the way we can move around. In many mmos you can just walk around by clicking, you can’t jump, you can’t roll, you can’t climb, the only thing you can do is walk on flat surfaces.

Gw2 offers a lot more freedom in that regard, I don’t want that taken away. Also dodging is an important part of the combat system I don’t want to loose.

Its a bad idea. I’m sorry, but I don’t support this.

The problem with removing vigor is that professions with low health/armour rely on vigor make up for that lower amount of health and armour. (Ele’s, Thieves and Mesmer’s for instance often have high vigor uptimes) If you remove the vigor, you have to provide something else for the traits/skills that provide vigor which provide the same survivability. At least vigor is less passive than protection and invulns.

Not signed.. just a thief QQ thief more in the list of many crybaby threads of people, that want to see this class and all of its surrounding mechanics get nerfed to oblivion, only because of themself lacking at playe skills to beat other people who play this class well.

Instead of removing Vigor, I think this game could definetely need some new boons.
SO far Anet has permanently added only new conditions, but so far no single new boon…

GW2 could need like 2-3 new boons.

Currently we have only:

Might = Increases Power
Fury = Increases Critical Chance
Protection = Reduces Damage
Swifnerss = Increases Movement Speed
Quickness = Increases Attack Speed
Vigor = Lets Endurance recharge faster
Retaliation = Reflects received Damage partwise
Regeneration: Auto Heal
Stability: Immune to Crowd Controls
——

What GW2 could need are Boons…

• That reduces Condition Durations of non CC Conditions like Bleeding, Poison,, Burning ect. by 33%, something like Healthiness

• That temporarely increases Initiative Gain/reduces Skill Cooldowns like Haste

• That prevents a player to get into Downed State and heals, if an attack would be deadly, like Reincarnation

• That increases Critical Damage, like Courage

• That increases Healing Power, like Intensity

• That improves differently class specific mechanics, like virtue cool downs, element swap cooldowns, steal cooldowns, adrenalien gain, life force gain ect. like Concentration

• That increases the range of skills, like Perspicacity

Many possibilities, many things that could have great influences on builds to improve the Combat System of GW2.

No. If they delete vigor and everything that refills dodge i will stop playing every squishy class there is. No more Thief, no more Elementalist, no more Ranger.

Stupid thread.

To be honest, I’m surprised at the replies. I thought more challenging content was a good thing. As it stands I find PvE to be so trivial.

And dodge spam in PvPis hideous. I think dodges should be something that have to be held on to, not just used continuously when you think you might take damage.

Rolyate.6753:

To be honest, I’m surprised at the replies. I thought more challenging content was a good thing. As it stands I find PvE to be so trivial.

Are you somehow forced to use Vigor when you play?

No, but slowing my own gameplay would simply leave me behind other players. Instead of actually rewarding people for more difficult content.

I also have no control in PvP instances whereby classes will random dodge instant cast skills. Which should really be punished, as they are then left with one dodge, but with current mechanics, they are able to dodge again and again.

Dodging has saved my sorry butt many times. I run a Mesmer, upon dodging, I make clones, this is one move that has saved me from dying plenty.

My answer has to be: No. Sorry. Keep dodge and vigor right where it’s at.

As far as I see, no actual arguments against this have been raised, other than that people like to dodge.

I get that it’s a fun mechanic, but it could be more fun if you actually had to use it more sparingly? No?

I guess it’s just a casual’s game. I just would like the content to actual persuade users to improve.

I say delete it, lets see how every other classes feels like us Necro who have NO access to it at all.

Dodge makes the game more active.

When I play a game that doesn’t use a dodge mechanic for damage avoidance, I wish I had dodge. Builds would also come down to numbers, you would need a certain armor to tank so that is what we would strive for. Removal of vigor and forcing the sparring use of dodge won’t accomplish what you are looking for.

Other issues need to be addressed to make PvE more challanging but it is PvE after all and you can only get so challanging in PvE because it isn’t like a person on the other end trying to fight. AI is very stupid and it works in a blisfully ignorant manner.

Open world, I don’t see that becomming any challange that would accomidate a wide range of players. I can see dungeons becoming more difficult but that can be done with scripting in a much easier manner because there is a small number of players in those instances vs ope world.

Rolyate.6753:

As far as I see, no actual arguments against this have been raised, other than that people like to dodge.

People liking to dodge is a perfectly valid argument. You can’t keep moving the goalposts in a discussion just because you disagree with what people have to say.

uknortherner.2670:

Rolyate.6753:

As far as I see, no actual arguments against this have been raised, other than that people like to dodge.

People liking to dodge is a perfectly valid argument. You can’t keep moving the goalposts in a discussion just because you disagree with what people have to say.

This.

Vigor, just like any other boon, is there for a reason. It helps make many professions able to take less damage; taking this away would only complicate things further.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I say delete it, lets see how every other classes feels like us Necro who have NO access to it at all.

While I feel your pain, taking it away doesn’t solve anything. I would know because my main is a necro. Other classes have it there for a reason, and that reason is balance. Taking it away would shift the scales in favor of the necro, which would mean either nerfing the necro or giving boosts to other professions to compensate.

Once again, taking away vigor would simply complicate things.

As it stands though PvE is very trivial in that the hardest boss encounters can be killed by a single player in a game that is supposed to promote team work. How? Through being able to dodge every, very obviously, telegraphed skill.

I just think it would promote a much more interesting level of depth to the game.

And people liking to dodge isn’t an argument. I’m not suggesting it’s removed, simply made less frequent.

Balance would shift, however I don’t think it would make as big of a difference as you may first think. I believe escape mechanics in PvP are more important, unless looking at such builds as S/D thieves, whereby they will simply chain dodges until they are able to do something else.

Alright, here’s my two bits: Vigor is an interesting condition that adds depth to combat and makes some builds possible. It also has a few very good counters: weakness, torment and boon removal/stealing. This can limit dodging and even punish people for moving around.

TLDR: The boon doesn’t need to be removed when it is so easy to design against.

Rolyate.6753:

And people liking to dodge isn’t an argument. I’m not suggesting it’s removed, simply made less frequent.

Balance would shift, however I don’t think it would make as big of a difference as you may first think. I believe escape mechanics in PvP are more important, unless looking at such builds as S/D thieves, whereby they will simply chain dodges until they are able to do something else.

Maybe we should remove their Healing Signet. It’s no fair that they get a signet that will regen their health so quickly but other classes don’t get to have it.

While we’re at it, we should remove the mesmer clones, because it’s so hard to keep track of which is the clone and which is the player. And while we’re at it, we should change the downed Ranger 3. It’s no fair that they can have their pets revive them.

[/sarcasm]

Don’t like other players using vigor against you? Design a build to counter it and use it. You’ll very likely throw their game off. Make it a challenge for them! Don’t remove it from them and force them to find a new build to learn. Find a way to keep them without any vigor so that they don’t have the level of endurance regen you hate.

And in PvE, why do you care if I’m able to defeat X boss alone or not? As a squishy elementalist, if I’m able to do a group event solo, it’s because I decided to go for the challenge. Not because it’s a walk in the park.

I’m a bunker ele. I use my dodge to heal when in water. Tell me, how am I, a squishy elementalist, supposed to even think about surviving against warriors, the current favorite of ANet, when other players scream nerf my build? When the last patch nerfed me. I used to get vigor more often. The last patch meant I had to to choose between 2 skills. I chose the other since it was more useful. Please, don’t remove my means of survival just because you can’t handle playing against the classes with access to multiple ways to gain vigor. Find a build to counter it if you hate it so much and don’t scream nerf if you can’t. The builds exist. Learn to counter them or learn to out last them.

Rolyate.6753:

As it stands though PvE is very trivial in that the hardest boss encounters can be killed by a single player in a game that is supposed to promote team work. How? Through being able to dodge every, very obviously, telegraphed skill.

I just think it would promote a much more interesting level of depth to the game.

Oh?
I would love to see a video of a single player killing Tequatl tbh.
Or Jormag, or the Shatterer.

lordkrall.7241:

Rolyate.6753:

As it stands though PvE is very trivial in that the hardest boss encounters can be killed by a single player in a game that is supposed to promote team work. How? Through being able to dodge every, very obviously, telegraphed skill.

I just think it would promote a much more interesting level of depth to the game.

Oh?
I would love to see a video of a single player killing Tequatl tbh.
Or Jormag, or the Shatterer.

More to the point, I’d like to see a video of Rolyate doing this himself seeing as he’s convinced it’s easy to solo the toughest bosses the game has to offer.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

One of the things I really like in GW2 is the way we can move around. In many mmos you can just walk around by clicking, you can’t jump, you can’t roll, you can’t climb, the only thing you can do is walk on flat surfaces.

Gw2 offers a lot more freedom in that regard, I don’t want that taken away. Also dodging is an important part of the combat system I don’t want to loose.

The game would become so stale and it’s come way too far to be pushed back into Guild Wars mechanics.

I don’t think that dodges and vigor are the main problem that trivialize content.
After all, you’re not doing much damage when you dodge.

I think Bosses and mobs should hit a bit harder, but to avoid the One Shot mecanism if possible.

When they One Shot you, you’re inclined to go Zerk and just dodge those blows.
Also dodging 10 OS moves, miss one and be downed seems not fun to me.

When you can stay because you have a tougher build or mitigate the damage, and continue to do dps instead of dodging, this promote different strategies.

Not asking to create monstrous tankers here, but OS don’t encourage to raise its armor level.

The day they get rid of or otherwise limit active dodging is the day I stop playing. With past MMO’s where dodge was a passive stat, actively being able to dodge at will has been unbelievably awesome. Squishier classes need that vigor to stay alive.

Obvious troll thread. People who complain about stuff like this just want to see everyone’s reactions. If it is for real, then just do everyone a favor and stop playing. It’s obvious the game is boring you with its “trivial” PvE content.

Chuck Nizzle.6283:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I say delete it, lets see how every other classes feels like us Necro who have NO access to it at all.

While I feel your pain, taking it away doesn’t solve anything. I would know because my main is a necro. Other classes have it there for a reason, and that reason is balance. Taking it away would shift the scales in favor of the necro, which would mean either nerfing the necro or giving boosts to other professions to compensate.

Once again, taking away vigor would simply complicate things.

How so? The balance would not shift that much. They can still escape and us not be able to catch them at all. It would be more of a change between the other classes fighting than them fighting us.

World bosses are simply Zerg content. World bosses in my opinion don’t offer much in the fun aspect.

You can however pick any dungeon boss, google it, and find a video of it being killed by a single player.

My suggestion is not a troll thread, it is a genuine opinion. This game would in my opinion gain depth if dodges were stripped right back.

I assume the more casual player is that which enjoys lots if dodges. Personally I enjoy hard content and PvP and as such would like depth added to those two aspects.

Rolyate.6753:

World bosses are simply Zerg content. World bosses in my opinion don’t offer much in the fun aspect.

You can however pick any dungeon boss, google it, and find a video of it being killed by a single player.

My suggestion is not a troll thread, it is a genuine opinion. This game would in my opinion gain depth if dodges were stripped right back.

I assume the more casual player is that which enjoys lots if dodges. Personally I enjoy hard content and PvP and as such would like depth added to those two aspects.

Don’t assume things. It makes both parties look bad.

There are some classes that heavily rely on mobility to stay alive. Dodges are part of that mobility.

Thieves come to mind. Elementalists do as well.

These two classes have a low health pool and if they aren’t mobile they’re dying.

Except in zerg, but even horrible players who never dodge and just auto attack can stay alive in zerg so you can’t really claim that as proof that vigor should go.

Play a glass cannon build on a low health pool class and then come back and tell me that vigor needs to go.

My guess is you lost to someone who has a build that relies on vigor and just don’t want to be bothered to change your build to counter it.

Builds that focus on putting vigor on themselves are liable to be glass cannon. they hit hard, but can’t be hit hard. Remove or reduce their ability to move via cripple, immobilize, daze, etc, and you’ll be able to take them out. Or at least make them worried about you taking them out.

Terrible suggestion.
Remove " x " from the game because I think/feel it trivializes content could be said about anything.
“Remove stealth from the game because..”
“Remove 50% player damage from the game because..”
Seriously.
Vigor is fine – the game is oriented around a dynamic combat system and even though you’re doing fine and are bored there are far more players that can’t get by even with vigor on and a ton of dodges.

So no – your suggestion I cannot agree with.

I don’t see how removing dodge makes combat more challenging. Seems to me that standing in front of each other clubbing one another untill someone falls is less challenging, less dynamic and incredibly simple.

Seera, for starters please know that my main is a thief and I play in the top 100 of team queue.

The reason I believe it makes combat more challenging is that you have to actually make your dodges count. All too often people will dodge for no reason or to increase movement speed, which can completely avoid something someone else has set up and not through skill, just sheer luck and that IMO takes away from high level play.

There’s way too much vigor and as a result dodging in the game. It’s ruining the combat mechanics.

If you want more defense you should be forced to slot some defensive utilities or become smarter in your play. Dodge spamming is fairly unintelligent and essentially creates periods of invulnerability.

You see tons of QQ on Mesmer’s Blurred Frenzy when it was invulnerability — this is no different. Some classes are achieving 25% invul or higher simply by mashing dodge.

Dodge should remain as a combat mechanic, but it should be constrained in its availability, and that should be normalized across all professions.

Also many players here can’t read. The OP said remove vigor, not dodge.

Polishpk.2985:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

One of the things I really like in GW2 is the way we can move around. In many mmos you can just walk around by clicking, you can’t jump, you can’t roll, you can’t climb, the only thing you can do is walk on flat surfaces.

Gw2 offers a lot more freedom in that regard, I don’t want that taken away. Also dodging is an important part of the combat system I don’t want to loose.

The game would become so stale and it’s come way too far to be pushed back into Guild Wars mechanics.

That’s basically what I was saying..

Rolyate.6753:

Seera, for starters please know that my main is a thief and I play in the top 100 of team queue.

The reason I believe it makes combat more challenging is that you have to actually make your dodges count. All too often people will dodge for no reason or to increase movement speed, which can completely avoid something someone else has set up and not through skill, just sheer luck and that IMO takes away from high level play.

Ding Ding – the real world just called.
People have been evading other people’s strategies in EVERY and ANY aspect of life through sheer luck rather than skill for as long as humanity has existed.

also " or starters please know that my main is a thief and I play in the top 100 of team queue " – that doesn’t make your opinion more valid.
An sPVP point of view with a lot of experience doesn’t make you right. You’ve only expressed your opinion which I believe to be flawed. The last balance patch has heavily cut back on vigor access.

The fact that people are dodging more than you’d like doesn’t make it a problem.

Rolyate.6753:

Seera, for starters please know that my main is a thief and I play in the top 100 of team queue.

The reason I believe it makes combat more challenging is that you have to actually make your dodges count. All too often people will dodge for no reason or to increase movement speed, which can completely avoid something someone else has set up and not through skill, just sheer luck and that IMO takes away from high level play.

And I main an elementalist whose survivability is somewhat tied to access to vigor as my build is currently bunker elementalist.

With vigor, I still have to make my dodges count. I can think of numerous situations when I wish my endurance was full or at half full. Even with vigor. Vigor doesn’t increase the number of dodges we have and it doesn’t make our endurance fill instantly. It’s not the win button you seem to think it is.

No one dodges without a valid reason! It could be an accidental double tap on their keyboard. It could be because they are an elementalist with elemental attunement and dodging will grant them 5 seconds of regeneration if they are in water. Or it could be because they recognize your tell and realize it’s time to move. Or any number of things. Only the FIRST one would be a dodge that everyone would like to avoid happening unless it happens at the lucky right moment.

And as the other person said, access to vigor was already nerfed! I used to be able to gain vigor via cantrips. While that trait still exists, it was moved (or something was moved to its tier). Now I get it or Elemental Attunement. I’d rather gain more useful boons than have more dodges via vigor.

Learn strategies to counter vigor, they exist. Stop asking it to be nerfed because you think it trivializes the content. It doesn’t. And if you don’t like vigor, don’t use it.

It seems he believes taking things away from the game will make it more skill based – that is not the case. Even with vigor dodges are still limited and you still have to make them count. A player that dodges just for the heck of it will find himself going down quickly.

I honestly don’t understand why this mechanic would be changed.

Harper.4173:

It seems he believes taking things away from the game will make it more skill based – that is not the case. Even with vigor dodges are still limited and you still have to make them count. A player that dodges just for the heck of it will find himself going down quickly.

I honestly don’t understand why this mechanic would be changed.

Seriously?

There are builds that have amazing dodge up-time. As I mentioned, dodge is equivalent to invulnerability. If a build is pushing 25% or more invulnerability, the system is broken.

Nobody is arguing dodge, just vigor (except for those who can’t read the OP topic).

I stick by my position that it’s a lazy mechanic in its current state which is you don’t have to play harder, just dodge more…

juno.1840:

Harper.4173:

It seems he believes taking things away from the game will make it more skill based – that is not the case. Even with vigor dodges are still limited and you still have to make them count. A player that dodges just for the heck of it will find himself going down quickly.

I honestly don’t understand why this mechanic would be changed.

Seriously?

There are builds that have amazing dodge up-time. As I mentioned, dodge is equivalent to invulnerability. If a build is pushing 25% or more invulnerability, the system is broken.

Nobody is arguing dodge, just vigor (except for those who can’t read the OP topic).

I stick by my position that it’s a lazy mechanic in its current state which is you don’t have to play harder, just dodge more…

And you seem to fail to realize that we realize that the OP is asking for vigor to be removed!

Players who spec into having access to the most vigor possible GIVE up other options. There are ways to counter vigor. Use them. Don’t ask for it to be removed because of the few people who spec that much into vigor usage.

The proposed solution would only be a band aid for the real problem. If the bosses required more tactics instead of just spam auto-attack, then maybe players wouldn’t be able to have so many vigor giving things. And that would fix some of the boring nature of champ trains and other good things. And maybe even increase variety of welcome builds in dungeon runs.

Address the real problem. Not just something that would reduce build variety without solving the problem.

Why can they put so much into vigor should be the question. Not ANet should remove vigor. They can put so much into it because they feel there is no reason not to when you can just face roll with auto-attack with the class’s weakest weapon and dodge the attacks.

If you get rid of the reason why they can afford to put so much into vigor, then the problem will largely go away.

Vigor is not the problem, it’s a symptom. Enemy AI is the problem.

Deleting vigor would be like taking cough medicine for a cold. Cough medicine isn’t going to kill whatever it is that’s making you cough. It’s just going to do things to reduce the need to cough. And your body will find another way to get rid of the cold.

Players will just jump to the next best way to avoid dying and then I’m sure you or the OP or someone will come complain that it’s overpowered and should be removed/nerfed/etc.

Rolyate.6753:

Seera, for starters please know that my main is a thief and I play in the top 100 of team queue.

The reason I believe it makes combat more challenging is that you have to actually make your dodges count. All too often people will dodge for no reason or to increase movement speed, which can completely avoid something someone else has set up and not through skill, just sheer luck and that IMO takes away from high level play.

Luck is a factor in every complicated battle. But what you described isn’t a problem with vigor, it’s an issue with tieing multiple mechanics to the dodge function which gives some classes more incentive to dodge other than just avoiding a blow. So they are still strategically using their dodges, they just aren’t using them to avoid a blow in some cases.

That’s one thing – the OP seems to not realize – dodging means MORE than actually dodging a blow.

And I don’t think he was talking about PVE here Seera, I think he was leaning more towards sPVP or WvW. Players dodging is not a bad thing. Vigor is not a bad thing – you want MORE FLUID combat not more static combat.
That’s what the designers intended when they made the system that we have today – i think it would be foolish to remove a boon just because some people feel it trivializes combat ( pve or pvp combat). A lot of things could be accused of that – including stunbreakers.

I’ve had more than a few friends who were hardcore pvp players in other MMOs quit because they could not see the sense of a stunbreaker.
They went : " if i’ve stunned him why does he get a way out? " – in their minds that trivialized combat as well. But that’s not the case – it makes it more complex and fluid.

Same with vigor – fighting an opponent with vigor up means you have to TIME your attacks right. It means you have to play BETTER in order to succeed.

Harper.4173:

That’s one thing – the OP seems to not realize – dodging means MORE than actually dodging a blow.

And I don’t think he was talking about PVE here Seera, I think he was leaning more towards sPVP or WvW. Players dodging is not a bad thing. Vigor is not a bad thing – you want MORE FLUID combat not more static combat.
That’s what the designers intended when they made the system that we have today – i think it would be foolish to remove a boon just because some people feel it trivializes combat ( pve or pvp combat). A lot of things could be accused of that – including stunbreakers.

I’ve had more than a few friends who were hardcore pvp players in other MMOs quit because they could not see the sense of a stunbreaker.
They went : " if i’ve stunned him why does he get a way out? " – in their minds that trivialized combat as well. But that’s not the case – it makes it more complex and fluid.

Same with vigor – fighting an opponent with vigor up means you have to TIME your attacks right. It means you have to play BETTER in order to succeed.

OP does mention PvE build diversity in the first post and talks about world bosses in another post. But I think the OP has issues with it in all aspects of the game.

I don’t feel that vigor or being able to dodge is the issue in regards to challenging content. I think it’s the lack of challenging content that is the issue. There are many ways to make challenging content without destroying the dynamic content that just isn’t being utilized.