Q:
Dervish please?
The Dervish it too closely tied to the Human Gods for it to actually work though.
Unless they completely remake the whole class.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
NO !!
nuff said…
>.>
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
You know race =/= belief…and often times i wish arena net would figure that out…yes you can have a charr that believes in human gods and a human who believes in none vice versa… If the only reason this class isnt coming out is lore…they should step up their game. ;p
NO !!
nuff said…
>.>
who crawled up ur kitten and died?
You know race =/= belief…and often times i wish arena net would figure that out…yes you can have a charr that believes in human gods and a human who believes in none vice versa… If the only reason this class isnt coming out is lore…they should step up their game. ;p
Oh the Charr KNOW that the Human Gods exists, but that is not really the point. Charr detest gods overall though.
And it is not just the fact that there would be issues with the races, it is also the fact that the Gods have disappeared and no longer really answer the prayers which the Dervish Class is built around.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
NO !!
nuff said…
>.>
who crawled up ur kitten and died?
A stupid wannabe god with Grim Reaper Complexes..250 years ago and it hopefully will never see the light of the Tyrian World again
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
You know race =/= belief…and often times i wish arena net would figure that out…yes you can have a charr that believes in human gods and a human who believes in none vice versa… If the only reason this class isnt coming out is lore…they should step up their game. ;p
Oh the Charr KNOW that the Human Gods exists, but that is not really the point. Charr detest gods overall though.
And it is not just the fact that there would be issues with the races, it is also the fact that the Gods have disappeared and no longer really answer the prayers which the Dervish Class is built around.
Thank you for your constructive response unlike the other guy, still even now I think Dervish could exist with a subtle twist in class mechanics and lore… I mean technically the school could change its doctrine still worship gods even silent ones yet since their prayers no longer function as a service to them, they adapt a new form of combat. I mean it has been 200 years… Hell it would be nice to see them using their faith in the gods as new found power…even when the gods aren’t there (maybe that develops into new spells- faith based ones) and maybe even a sect of dervish who don’t believe at all giving them more physical attributes…
One thing is we don’t have all the answers in the story yet, and there is still possibility that maybe the Gods aren’t silent…or gone…maybe they are in preparation for something…I could see them coming back in dire situations…
As for “char know they exist” I was speaking as if each and every charr was an individual…like you or I with our own choice in beliefs and practices…Just because a story/society dictates something doesn’t mean its all or nothing. But regardless chars can be necros and guardians and thats kinda pushing it already.
NO !!
nuff said…
>.>
who crawled up ur kitten and died?
A stupid wannabe god with Grim Reaper Complexes..250 years ago and it hopefully will never see the light of the Tyrian World again
LOL I see, that was amusing/funny. But seriously I just like the scythe…nothing to do with the reaper man… Just as someone would like a tonfa or battle axe.
(edited by Rem.9627)
OP, why have you flagged your post which contains no question whatsoever, as a question?
I stole a special snowflake’s future by exercising my democratic right to vote.
The Dervish it too closely tied to the Human Gods for it to actually work though.
Unless they completely remake the whole class.
^That Pretty much.
Plus guardian already has the whole ‘Faith/Boon(enchantments)’ Warrior niche covered.
And since the 8 professions got nearly everything covered already i dont see how they would stand out from the other classes. How would they be unique gameplay-wise?
Imo they should just add a scythe to the game for necros, warriors and guardians. Maybe a universal hoodie here and there and you can atleast look like a dervish.
I will try to make a constructive view about the lore, the class itself and the possible impact. Please read this TL:DR comment by full length before you start hating like Orpheal here (I know older posts from him). Then you can, but please constructively.
All the people saying the linking to the human Gods is a problem, then the Guardian profession should partly also be a problem for you – I will quote the interview of Jeff Grubb and Eric Flanumm of massively, where they were talking about the Guardian’s lore. Believe it or not, the Paragons had a big influence on the evolution of the Guardian. A small lore quote from Guild Wars 1 of Paragons before I will quote the interview: “Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals”. They were even more linked to the gods than a Dervish. Times have changed people, so the beliefs. Profession change and develop.
Now the quote from massively:
Question: “Is there a story behind the Guardian on the lore end of things? Do you have any thoughts on how it came to be?”
Jeff Grubb: “With the turmoil in Elona and the spread of the Order of Whispers into other lands, more Paragon teaching showed elsewhere in Tyria. These teachings melded with other traditions, and over time, the Guardians and their abilities can be found throughout the world and among all the races. They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the Charr’s desire to rule the battlefield”.
As you can see, the Guardian was influenced alot by the Paragons. I might say without the Paragons teachings and their power the Guardians wouldn’t have existed. Of course the Guardian has other influences as well, but most comes from them. Times have changed. The 6 Gods left Tyria. Now new spiritual truths are seeked. It is logical that this kind of evolution of the Paragons happened to the Dervish as well.
You don’t have to link the Dervish with any god. Dervishes are mystics. Mystics believe in something special but it has not to be anything in from of a god. It can be a spiritual truth or ultimate reality as well. Even the dervishes in real-life have different orders and they differentiate in their beliefs. And this a game, we have even more free room here.
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Considering all this, the Dervish made an evolution like the Paragon, he would be quite different from the Dervish we used to know in GW1 – no transformations, no linking to the gods anymore. They are now real wandering mystics or “Eremites”, seeking for a new truth. These seekers can be found in any race of Tyria. How could a dervish look in Guild Wars 2 now? Wouldn’t he be just another version of the Guardian? This is a personal view:
The Elona spirit is too strong on the Dervish, a Dervish should only come with some Elona expansion in the future. The “Eremite” theme is just 1000% Elona. He could be the missing 3rd heavy armor class, introducing a new style of heavy armor which combines a hooded robe with metal plates over some parts of it, like the Monument armor in GW1 or even now in GW2 the Draconic armor, which follows this concept combining a robe with metal plates over it. Armor design is a general problem for new classes, ArenaNet really should introduce class specific armor, for new classes to be unique.
As the Dervish is a magic touched class (even in GW1 you could play them with Staff and Scepter/Focus as heal), they can use Staff, Scepter, Focus, Torch, and Daggers and Swords are the melee weapons.
Of course he wouldn’t get a second Guardian, all his skillpool and traits would be much more offensive than the Guardian but still more defensive compared with other classes. The Dervish feels a bit slow, in attack speed as it was in GW1, but to compensate that he has many AoE attacks and also unique magical skills to stand out. He has good movement and plenty of control effects. If you remember the skills in GW1, especially in Earth and Wind Prayers, many of them would fit perfectly into GW2 and don’t forget the new tools here.
All the Vows, Auras, Cloaks and Mystic skills could be made very interesting in GW2. The flash “enchantments” (I know you don’t want to hear the word), could be unique F1-F4 skills to the Dervish, allowing special effects on activation and deactivation.
Imagine some of the old skills in GW2 now: Mystic Vigor, Vow of Silence, Dust Cloak, Shield of Force, Veil of Thorns, Mystic Twister, Vow of Strentgh, Aura Slicer, Eremites Attack, Vow of Silence, Rending Touch, Zealous Renewal, Whirling Charge, Conviction, Eremites Zeal, Heart of Fury, Harriers Haste, Featherfoot Grace – it would be awesome.
(edited by Carlos.4371)
Post got too long, so I had to seperate.
A little note for the end: All of this doesn’t come from a Dervish fanboy, I had one but didn’t play him that much. But I always enjoyed the mystic Eremite theme – I never played with the transformations, for me the Dervish without that linking was the real Dervish.
Nuff said…
Honestly though….if/when you guys add new maps consider adding in classes that fit those maps… Dervish seems to fit in so well with this system…
In regards for armor type for Dervish…you could always make a 4th type in between Medium and Heavy. (just sayin) OR just make them have medium chest/leggings/helm (code wise) and heavy boots/shoulders/gauntlets…. this cuts out a lot of clipping issues.
Seriously though, Id pay for this class to be added in….I know some other people have classes they would like to see as well.
If it was nuff said why did you continue ? Anyway the dervs power was tied to the 5 gods which would make it incompatible with all other races in Tyria .
Dervish is centered around humans only, which makes every human in the game a dervish considering the racial skills.
Reasons it wouldn’t work with other races:
- Charr killed their gods.
- Sylvari have “the dream”.
- Asura believe in a godless higher power just like “the force”.
- Norn already draw power from their gods just like humans.
As cool as it would seem, unfortunately they already exist in the game.
All types of classes have been added so I highly doubt any classes will be added. But I am looking forward to added races like the tengu that were playable during alpha.
Dervishes were essentially wandering mystics in GW1 and had no school or other area for teaching large groups. They taught one pupil at a time, so it isn’t too far fetched to think that other races would have learned the Dervish skills from the travelers.
The one thing that might need to be changed for GW2, would be the Avatar forms. However, that issue could be fixed by simply changing the forms from being forms of the human gods, and being forms of the concepts that they represent(ed) instead. They could transform into elementals or certain animals that use the basic powers of the gods instead.
Post got too long, so I had to seperate.
A little note for the end: All of this doesn’t come from a Dervish fanboy, I had one but didn’t play him that much. But I always enjoyed the mystic Eremite theme – I never played with the transformations, for me the Dervish without that linking was the real Dervish.
The problem with dervishes having different believes is that it would be difficult to have the same skill set across races and having it make sense. What even is this ‘universal’ mysticism and even without avatars alot of the dervishes skills were centered around the gods.
Even if this was somehow overcome they still wouldnt be very unique gameplay wise because the other 2 classes already can apply both most of the defensive and offensive easily by themselves.
What would be intresting to me is something like the necro route. Where they would get benefits from having boons/stripping specefic boons. (pretty like there gw1 mechanic) but in order for stuff like boon removal to not be a hard counter to them the need to have something unremovable
I too loved my dervish but give the guardian some armors with hoods and a scythe and you already have it.
Plus they are going to add new skills traits. The dervish style of play could easily become part of the guardian armor pool/skillset. (just like ritualist could get added to ranger etc)
I think in a pro dervish thread, it would be helpful to define what this new dervish would look like, because with everything that would need to change, they can’t much resemble GW1 dervish at all.
Based on what would need to change, perhaps a new scythe weapon for an elementalist would fit the need. This way the different types of magics are accounted for without being god dependant.
The eramite theme can really apply to any class. Since each playable species has their own take on classes. e.g.: Norn necro are connected to the Spirit of Raven. Human necro can be to Grenth, etc.
really, I think this falls in the desire for all weapons for all classes (plus an added scythe weapon) , which a-net has already said they are working on (not the scythe part). And the idea for all armor types being available to all classes. Which wouldn’t be such a bad idea, imo. it would open up a lot more archtypes for us to create characters.
Just to make one thing clear here …
I’m against Dervishs…
I’m not against unique evolutions from Dervishs, that are in the end something completely different anmd not just copy pasted GW1 mechanics.
They need to add new things to the game from that the whole game including other classes possibly can profitate too.
An Evolution of them, that basically fits too all races lore wise, mechanic wise, that aren’t just named Dervish, but have a new better fitting name for GW2.
Guardians are based on some Paragon Basis, doesn this mean that anet had to remake the Paragon now ? NO. They took just the mechanics from them and merged them with other mechanics from other classes like the Monk and the Ritualist and gave the result a complete new own profession name, that fitted alot better to the whole game – Guardian, instead of Paragon (what is no profession/job at all)
Thats the reason why I made some time ago this thread
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/A-unique-Derv-Redesign-possible-The-Mystic/first#post2646977
Because I asked myself, what I might end up with a concept, If I just do the same thing with the Dervish without divine avatars (cause thats basically already done in the human racial skills), what ANet did with the Paragon.
The GW2 lore also tells us in the personal story about the existance of “Mystics”, so it was just obvious to me, that they count in the current lore of GW2 as a real existing “profession/job” , somethign that you need to LEARN to become one.
Personally I like the idea behind sub classes ~ quoted from Chris Whiteside
So, I went through the Guild Wars 1 wiki, to verify my earlier posts. There are very few Dervish skills that are directly tied to the gods. So, altering their Avatars really is all that would need to be done to make them fit in with the Lore in GW2.
Eeehh. Altering their avatars wouldn’t solve the lore problem. It may solve a re-skin problem but the lore problem can only be solved with lore that would be represented by the new skin. The lore problem is that they are priest warriors. Taking away their “priestliness” would make them a light armored battle mage. Which is okay. But then a-net could allow “dervish” to be played by any light armored caster, rather than make a new class.
Like the paragon, the new dervish wouldn’t be a dervish. It would be something else because the lore of the dervish doesn’t mesh with most of the playable races.
There really isn’t a reason to change their Lore, in addition to their Avatars. Plenty of people still worship the human gods and there are plenty of Priests and Priestess running around Kryta. No reason they can’t be priest warriors.
Even if ANet felt the need to alter their Lore to fit in other races, the Dervish could still just worship the aspects of nature that those gods controlled when they were around. They would just be a bit more like Druids than they were before.
How would the playable charr fit in there? They don’t worship anybody. Especially not gods. Let alone the human gods.
Even though I agree that implementing dervishes in the game would be an awesome idea… I don’t think Anet has the ressources to make them fit in the story of Guild Wars 2.
Yellya Aalana | Level 80 Elementalist
Adelia Aalana | Level 80 Engineer
Clan of Elders [CoE] – Blackgate
Adelia Aalana | Level 80 Engineer
Clan of Elders [CoE] – Blackgate
How would the playable charr fit in there? They don’t worship anybody. Especially not gods. Let alone the human gods.
I answered that question in the post that you’re questioning. Just replace the gods with the aspects of nature that they represent. It would make the Dervish slightly more Druidic, while keeping the essential theme of the class.
I answered that question in the post that you’re questioning. Just replace the gods with the aspects of nature that they represent. It would make the Dervish slightly more Druidic, while keeping the essential theme of the class.
In that post you said there is no reason to change the lore. That they can just be priests. then you say the other races can worship the aspects of nature that the gods controle. The problem is that charr don’t worship anything. Not gods. Not aspects of gods. Nothing. they reject worship. Even norn don’t worship their own dieties.
Now if what you are really saying is that they don’t need to worship anything to be a fighting druid then you are now agreeing with my post that that post disagreed with. You would be agreeing that the lore does need to change and that the dervish would be a different dervish that isn’t a priest.
You’re right, “worship” was a poor word choice on my part.
People mentioned that the gods that Dervishes got their powers from were not around and that would ruin the lore. I said that if ANet felt the need to change the Lore, then the Dervish abilities could be based around aspects of nature, rather than particular gods.
However, I disagree with your statement about the Charr, because the Lore specifically states that many Charr shun religion, but not all of them do. Considering that the Charr still have Shamans, which are a type of Priest, having a group of Charr act as Dervishes isn’t out of the realm of possibility, nor is it Lore breaking.
It has also been mentioned in the Lore, that the Charr Legions have noted they have a lack of spellcasters. The addition of the Dervish would fit right in with their military society as they are combination warriors and spellcasters.
You’re right, “worship” was a poor word choice on my part.
People mentioned that the gods that Dervishes got their powers from were not around and that would ruin the lore. I said that if ANet felt the need to change the Lore, then the Dervish abilities could be based around aspects of nature, rather than particular gods.
Which is no different than the post that I made that you disagreed with.
However, I disagree with your statement about the Charr, because the Lore specifically states that many Charr shun religion, but not all of them do. Considering that the Charr still have Shamans, which are a type of Priest, having a group of Charr act as Dervishes isn’t out of the realm of possibility, nor is it Lore breaking.
The charr that embrace religion on any meaningful scale are non-playable. They are Flame Legion. The charr term for shaman was used before the charr even had gods to give them power. It origionally meant any spell caster and more recently only applies to Flame legion because they are the only charr with any religion. The FL are the only reson the term “shamn” has a religious connotation in charr society. Trying to twist the lore so that the charr can have a class a playable priests who do worship the human gods just isn’t going to happen.
It has also been mentioned in the Lore, that the Charr Legions have noted they have a lack of spellcasters. The addition of the Dervish would fit right in with their military society as they are combination warriors and spellcasters.
All High legions utilize all classes of spell casters including guardians (who are also a combination of caster and warrior). Adding another spell casting class won’t change the dynamic of IL specializing in engineers, BL specilizing in warriors and AL specilising in rogues. They have a lack spell casters by choice. Because they don’t trust them and won’t allow them to rule anymore since the old shaman cast abused their power.
But all that is moot. because I’ve already said it’s okay if the lore is changed to fit the other races. I specifically stated: The lore problem is that they are priest warriors. Taking away their “priestliness” would make them a light armored battle mage. Which is okay. Just keep in mind that they won’t actually be dervish much like the guardians aren’t actually paragon.
The Flame Legion is condemned more for their worship of false gods and longtime oppression of the other legions than for the fact they have a preference for fireballs. The Flame Legion remains the most “magical” legion – that was their strength, and their overthrow in part has driven charr achievements in technology. But the charr always appreciate a fellow charr who can carry his or her own weight, and while they might mock an elementalist for his light armor, they appreciate the mobile artillery support that a timely meteor shower provides. http://www.onlinewelten.com/games/guild-wars-2/interviews/jeff-grubb-im-interview-zu-charr-7759/seite-3/
The charr aren’t starving for magic users.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
There is absolutely no reason to remove the Priest part. You mentioned yourself, that the Charr had Shamans long before they ever picked any type of god to worship.
The ONE thing, that was part of Dervish Lore, that wouldn’t fit into the game with Charr, is the Avatar forms, hence my suggestion of using a different set of Avatar forms based on aspects of nature. Earth Magic, Healing prayers, Wind Magic, and Mysticism are all things that any of the current races could use.
I didn’t say the charr were starving for magic users, I said they had a noticeable lack of spellcasters in their legions. I didn’t think I needed to specify which legions had the lack, because we can’t play as Flame Legion.
You specifically mentioned the Guardian being a combo caster and fighter. How is it that you can be fine with the Charr being that type of Priest, but insist a Dervish couldn’t be.
Now you’re contradicting yourself. They had shamans. Those shamans had no religious connotation before the FL found the Titans. So your reasoning that just because they had shamns that that means they can have playable priests is flawed. The priest part would derfinitly need to be removed. So you don’t have a leg to stand on here. Charr shaman have no religious connotation, no connection to any type of priest outside of the FL. Are you saying we should play FL?
Now onto guardians: Guardians are not priests. They aren’t holy warriors or paladins. They are battle mages. If you want to make your points you need to bone up on your GW2 lore. Forget what you think you know from other fantasy universes. In GW the original charr shaman aren’t linked to any god and guardians aren’t paladins.
What exactly is your point because you keep bouncing between two extremes. Either you think playable charr can be priest warriors (which they can’t due to lore) or you think that the lore of the dervish will need to change because the dervish is a warrior priest.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
You may want to go back and do some research on what exactly priests and shamans do. Those roles aren’t exclusively linked to gods (especially since not religions believe in a god or gods), but are also major parts of spiritual groups and their practices. That is the reason the Charr had Shamans long before attempting to worship any gods, they were the spiritual leaders of the Charr. They were responsible for teaching the values and philosophies of the Charr race.
Shamans are/were also part of all four legions, just far more prevalent in the Flame Legion, which is why it is noted that the other three legions have a much lower number of spell casters than the Flame Legion.
Guardians are, according to ANet themselves, an evolution of the Paragons and their teachings, with several aspects of the Monk thrown in. There’s a reason all their magic revolves around spirits and light. They also retain the role of being a spiritual class and follow certain philosophies.
They are not battle mages, in the sense that you’re trying to use the term, mainly because their magic is primarily defensive in nature and not offensive.
Again, the only change needed, would be the removal of a Dervish transforming into an Avatar of human god. Replacing that with any Avatar of nature that reflects their skill set, would suffice easily. This has been my point the entire time.
You may want to go back and do some research on what exactly priests and shamans do. Those roles aren’t exclusively linked to gods (especially since not religions believe in a god or gods), but are also major parts of spiritual groups and their practices. That is the reason the Charr had Shamans long before attempting to worship any gods, they were the spiritual leaders of the Charr. They were responsible for teaching the values and philosophies of the Charr race.
Source please. And then go ahead and explain how this justifies playable charr priests. Because I can teach my kids not to lie without being a priest.
Shamans are/were also part of all four legions, just far more prevalent in the Flame Legion, which is why it is noted that the other three legions have a much lower number of spell casters than the Flame Legion.
Guardians are, according to ANet themselves, an evolution of the Paragons and their teachings, with several aspects of the Monk thrown in. There’s a reason all their magic revolves around spirits and light. They also retain the role of being a spiritual class and follow certain philosophies.
Jeff Grubb: “With the turmoil in Elona and the spread of the Order of Whispers into other lands, more Paragon teaching showed elsewhere in Tyria. These teachings melded with other traditions, and over time, the Guardians and their abilities can be found throughout the world and among all the races. They are not tied to a particular race, philosophy, or group of gods but rather to a larger concept of proactive defense, of taking the fight to a foe and protecting those you fight alongside while appealing equally to humanity’s defensive nature and the Charr’s desire to rule the battlefield.”
Guardians are not priests. Bone up on your lore. The only metion of “priest from GW1” is in functionality not lore or teachings. We see paragons did have a hand in the development but it wasn’t the religious teachings or god worship as you are trying to imply.
They are not battle mages, in the sense that you’re trying to use the term, mainly because their magic is primarily defensive in nature and not offensive.
“I think the Guardian is much more of a pragmatic and tactical user of a magic as opposed to an Elementalist, who is a pure student of magic. The Elementalist casts discrete spells, and you have the feeling that there is a heritage and body of knowledge behind those spells. Guardians seem to use magical energy in the heat of combat, from the front line. That sense of immediacy sets the Guardian apart from more traditional spell-casters and allows for a heavily armored magical character.”
In the sense Im trying to use them? What sense is that? That they aren’t priests? That they are a fighting magic user without definite ties to a god or religion? No, the sense Im using them is fine. They are more battlemage than priest. In fact they aren’t priest at all unless you decide that your own character is a priest.
Again, the only change needed, would be the removal of a Dervish transforming into an Avatar of human god. Replacing that with any Avatar of nature that reflects their skill set, would suffice easily. This has been my point the entire time.
And your point is wrong because the entire reason for that avatar is the worship of the god. You would have to take that worship out of the dervish for it to work which means the lore would change. And your earlier points were both that the lore would not have to change and that charr could be priests.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
Source? That’s the definition of a Shaman. They’re spiritual leaders. You’re way too caught up on the whole god aspect of this.
The only part of the Lore that would need changing, would be the source of their Avatar Form. Absolutely nothing else would need changing. They would still be wandering priests, practicing their spiritual beliefs. It’s completely asinine to think that, if they could no longer directly channel a god to assume an Avatar form, that they wouldn’t adapt their magic to channel something else.
Heck, we could totally remove the Avatar form altogether and that still wouldn’t change their Lore as wandering priests, spreading their beliefs to chosen pupils. The only real change might be that their beliefs evolved from serving gods to serving nature.
If you think I need to bone up on my Lore, you may want to bone up on your reading comprehension. You even quoted ANet’s saying that the Guardian evolved from Paragons and their teachings. You may also need to recall that Paragons were directly chosen by gods. Guardians still follow the spiritual teachings of the Paragons, they just don’t directly worship gods. Combine that with several of the Monk’s skills and you get a spiritual fighter, NOT a battle mage.
Battle Mages are offensive, Guardians are meant to be Defensive. That isn’t a hard concept to grasp.
And, again, one does not have to worship a god or gods, to be considered a Priest or Shaman.
Only issue i see with Dervish at the moment, is the lack of the gods willingness to answer prayers. Dervish in GW1, were based very heavily on prayers and Avatars.
On a positive note though, I am really hoping they find a way to make this class come back, as it is one of my favorites from gw1.
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When I first noticed this thread, I questioned the prayers myself. However, after going back to do some more research before I started posting, I saw that the only abilities that they are stated to get directly from the gods, were the Avatar forms. That’s why I feel that the only slight change that would be needed, would be the source they channel an avatar form from or the removal of the form entirely.
Source? That’s the definition of a Shaman. They’re spiritual leaders. You’re way too caught up on the whole god aspect of this.
The only part of the Lore that would need changing, would be the source of their Avatar Form. Absolutely nothing else would need changing. They would still be wandering priests, practicing their spiritual beliefs. It’s completely asinine to think that, if they could no longer directly channel a god to assume an Avatar form, that they wouldn’t adapt their magic to channel something else.
Heck, we could totally remove the Avatar form altogether and that still wouldn’t change their Lore as wandering priests, spreading their beliefs to chosen pupils. The only real change might be that their beliefs evolved from serving gods to serving nature.
If you think I need to bone up on my Lore, you may want to bone up on your reading comprehension. You even quoted ANet’s saying that the Guardian evolved from Paragons and their teachings. You may also need to recall that Paragons were directly chosen by gods. Guardians still follow the spiritual teachings of the Paragons, they just don’t directly worship gods. Combine that with several of the Monk’s skills and you get a spiritual fighter, NOT a battle mage.
Battle Mages are offensive, Guardians are meant to be Defensive. That isn’t a hard concept to grasp.
And, again, one does not have to worship a god or gods, to be considered a Priest or Shaman.
So no source. Got it. Nothing to indicate that charr shaman were the equal of priests. Got it. But you did say one thing that stuck out:
“The only real change might be that their beliefs evolved from serving gods to serving nature.”
That’s a HUGE freakin lore change!
Let’s make it real simple. Dervish lore is that they are fighting priests who worship the human gods. That’s the lore. Any deviation from that standard model is a change to the lore. So trying to equate shaman to god worshipping priests in one posts and then minimising them as moral teachers in another is a waste of both out time.
Can palayable charr be fighting priests who worship the human gods? Nope. Not going to happen. No matter what role non-god worshipping shaman have taken in their society.
Likewise, your arbitrary focus on rules of guardians (That you tried to lable as priests) needing to be defensive while battlemages need to be offensive are equally useless, except to draw attention away from the fact that you thought guardians were priests. This sleight of hand you keep trying to utilise is obvious to anyone reading your posts.
You really need to check a dictionary. You don’t need to worship gods to be a Priest or Shaman: Shaman and Priest are synonyms. That’s why Shamans existed in Charr society long before they’d ever even had to deal with humans and their gods and why the word is still appropriate despite the lack of god worship.
There is absolutely no sleight of hand going on, there’s just you blatantly ignoring any evidence I present and refusing to crack a dictionary.
A Lore change would be completely removing the Dervish worshipping gods from the history of the game. Having their abilities evolve because the gods are silent, isn’t changing the established Lore. Their having to learn to use another source for their magic, doesn’t have to change their history. They would still be wandering priests protecting and teaching those interested.
I didn’t say Guardians needed to be defensive. I said that they don’t fit the definition of a battle mage because they are defensive. The bulk of their spells are focused on healing and/or defending.
The entire point of a battle mage is to be offensive. To combine weapons and magic to take out their enemies as fast as possible.
You really need to check a dictionary. You don’t need to worship gods to be a Priest or Shaman: Shaman and Priest are synonyms. That’s why Shamans existed in Charr society long before they’d ever even had to deal with humans and their gods and why the word is still appropriate despite the lack of god worship.
There is absolutely no sleight of hand going on, there’s just you blatantly ignoring any evidence I present and refusing to crack a dictionary.
A Lore change would be completely removing the Dervish worshipping gods from the history of the game. Having their abilities evolve because the gods are silent, isn’t changing the established Lore. Their having to learn to use another source for their magic, doesn’t have to change their history. They would still be wandering priests protecting and teaching those interested.
I didn’t say Guardians needed to be defensive. I said that they don’t fit the definition of a battle mage because they are defensive. The bulk of their spells are focused on healing and/or defending.
The entire point of a battle mage is to be offensive. To combine weapons and magic to take out their enemies as fast as possible.
………
A Lore change would be completely removing the Dervish worshipping gods from the history of the game.
It’s not reconning the lore. It is still changing the lore of what a dervish is. Becasue what a dervish curently is, doesn’t fit all the playable races. An evolution is a change. As I stated and restated “Just keep in mind that they won’t actually be dervish much like the guardians aren’t actually paragon.” guardians have evolbed from many teachings of paragons. But guardians aren’t paragons. And this new nature worshipping fighting caster won’t be a dervish either. We on the same page yet?
edit: and by your equation of a charr shaman and a priest, all charr melee casters are warrior priests. Dagger elementalist? check. Sword mesmer? absolutely. dagger necro? yes again. Charr sure do have alot of warrior priests for a race that largely shuns actual gods and religion.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
I believe the word you’re looking for is retconning.
You could make the argument that the melee casters were battle mages, but not warrior priests. Not all those classes have spirituality woven through them the same way Guardians and Dervishes do. Nice try though.
The one and only thing, that would need to change about the Dervish, in order to include all races, still remains the Avatar form and the direct worship of gods. Everything else about them could remain exactly the same and they would still fit into the GW2 lore while still being recognizable as the Dervish from GW2. They wouldn’t need to be mashed together with another class like the Paragon and Monk were, in order to create a new spiritual class like the Guardian.
Oh, so you DO know the word! That tells me you understood what was being said the entire time. And that means that when you said the lore of the dervish wouldn’t need to change, that you now know were wrong. yet…… you still keep trying. Is your pride really that fragile?
Edit: Your entire arguement about charr priests was that they had shaman. Well, their shaman were any caster. any caster at all. So there is no need for them to have a class with spirituality in order to be priests. By your logic, any casting class with melee capabilities is a warrior priest.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
I’m not wrong. There is currently only a specific set of Lore for the Dervish. In order for it to appear in GW2, the writers would have to expand on the Lore and explain what happened during the past 250 years.
In order for the Lore to change, it would need to be retconned out of existence.
The thing that you seem to not be able to understand, is that the Paragon had to be changed into the Guardian, because with the gods absent, there was no one to hand select them any longer. They would just die out without merging with another class.
The Dervish doesn’t face that dilemma. The only thing that happens to them if the gods leave, is that they lose the ability to transform. Nothing else about their skill set would change, nor would it need to. They would still have literally everything else that made them a Dervish, which is why any other race could take up this profession.
I’m sure you’ve noticed that literally every human class, in the current game, still calls out to various gods, while their racial counterparts just say something else, despite being the exact same profession? Or maybe you noticed that each race has their own personal racial skills that they can use? Again, despite being the same classes?
To reiterate again there is only ONE thing that prevents the Dervish coming into GW2 as is and that’s the Avatar form.
I’m
In order for the Lore to change, it would need to be retconned out of existence.
wait for it ………..
The Dervish doesn’t face that dilemma. The only thing that happens to them if the gods leave, is that they lose the ability to transform. Nothing else about their skill set would change
really? >.>
So in order to show an evolution you endorse retconning out the avatar transformation? Or do you endorse an actual evolution from god worship without a retcon? becasue you seem to arbitrarily pick and choose when the word “change” means retcon and when it doesn’t.
And dervish also “Served the gods as holy warriors”. Could they keep that too or would that also need to change …..or be retconned ….or evolved?
I’m sure you’ve noticed that literally every human class, in the current game, still calls out to various gods, while their racial counterparts just say something else, despite being the exact same profession? Or maybe you noticed that each race has their own personal racial skills that they can use? Again, despite being the same classes?
Right. What’s the point here? except to endorse exactlly what I said. that guardians aren’t automatically priests unless you decide that your own specific character is a priest.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
I didn’t endorse a retcon, I suggested an explanation that could be added to the Lore (you know, in that giant gaping hole of 250 years that hasn’t been fully written yet), to explain why they no longer transformed. If I had retconned, I’d have said that they never had the ability to transform in the established Lore to begin with.
You don’t seem to realize that the Dervish Lore (at this point in time) almost entirely stops at the end of GW1. The sole exception to this is the mention that there are still scattered Dervish and Paragon Sunspears roaming Elona, fighting against Palawa Joko.
My suggestion this entire time, has been to add Lore into that gap, that explains the change from serving gods to serving something else (I suggested nature).
My suggestion this entire time, has been to add Lore into that gap, that explains the change from serving gods to serving something else (I suggested nature).
So going from one thing to another. That sounds like a change to me. As far as I’M concerned, we have no further issue.
Now that THAT’S settled. What would make them dervish? Since the actual lore behind them would have to change. Even if it’s in a way that you suggested.
I’d be more in favour of a dervish-like class named something else. Much like the Guardians did for the paragon. Or better yet, (imo) add a new scythe weapon to the elementalist that gives them the dervish feel. That way they are still open enough to comply with all racial needs and it fits a-nets goal of adding more weapons to all classes. And they’d still have the diffrent elemental magics to pull from.
I’ve decided that I quite like you.
If all I can have is a Scythe, then I’ll take it. However, I still don’t think the Dervish would have been forced to change as much as the Paragon did from the Guardian. I think they would have kept the basic concept of wandering mystic that helped and taught wherever they travelled. Most of their skills were based in nature, so anyone could get into that. The humans could still have voice clips of them calling out to the gods, while the other races kept their various sayings. Although, it would be amusing to see Charr and Asura randomly transform into humans (since the gods look pretty human).
i’ve decided we can be BFF’s :P
I definitely don’t want dervish to be lost. I’m looking forward to a-net bringing us back to Elona eventually. And i’m sure when we do, that dervish will make an appearence in all their wandering mystical glory.
edit: actually, merging the two ideas might work. If we get to Elona the dervish will have done something in the gods absence. Probably turning more to the mysticism available than the gods that aren’t, as you suggested. that would be a good oportunity to add scythe and the swords to ele that the dervish could use. In game we could get them from dervish trainers who would mechanically be scythe weilding eles. aby way, that’s the end og my late night brain storm……. for now. Dun dun dun!
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
I played a lot of dervish time in GW1 and I really didn’t have a knack for the avatars, I ran mysticism and scythe mastery for everything anyway… But I loved the dervish regardless. If you do remember “Melonhead” in the story line (female derv hero) seemed more like a prophet? Correct me if I’m wrong… but I do see where the lore would be a little busted if the gods weren’t there but that doesn’t mean they can’t find something else to drive them. Yes I see the clash with races, oh well, a wandering scythe swinging mystic death machine doesn’t need faith… with out the gods they still have plenty of skills to fill the need of a medium armor class death tank with flash enchantments/vows/auras/insights for F1 F2 F3 F4 mentioned above. Instead of wind and earth prayers it could be Insight or Vows most of Dervish skills seem to have implied anyway. IDK i think the whole faith thing is no issue. Its the willingness of anet to put something together to make the few people who played this profession more at ease. You dont need to be a god to open a can of whoop * on someone…. just sayin…
but if your looking for class names you could always look at what the derv started as which would be Initiates or Acolytes or if you really want to go out on a limb dreadnaut…
I want my scythe. I want it for my necro. I think it would be an awesome 2 handed weapon for the thief if tied into acrobatics. And if we need that elusive third soldier class, give them one. In GW1, the scythe (defining weapon of the dervish) mainly an aoe melee weapon and many of the professions (excluding the warrior) were defined by a weapon which kind of dictated their play style. So if the dervish were to make it into GW2 make them aoe based.
Having a soldier class that was highly mobile on the battle field dealing aoe damage would be different from the guardians who sit there tanking for days or defending an ally or a warrior that for the most part singles out a target and puts it down. maybe the profession mechanic is tied to stripping boons for effects on enemies or allies around them.
Maybe F1, strips swiftness or vigor, aoe knockdown
Maybe F2, strips regeneration or retaliation, aoe heals
Maybe F3, Strips might or fury, grants quickness to the derv
Maybe F4, Strips protection or aegis grants invulnerabilty to the derv
But in no way does this profession have to be solely defined by god worship. Spirit spammer rits were preserved in the mesmer. I’d like to see the dervish play style of stripping enchantments and aoe melee brought back.
(edited by Crey.5263)
Having a soldier class that was highly mobile on the battle field dealing aoe damage would be different from the guardians who sit there tanking for days or defending an ally or a warrior that for the most part singles out a target and puts it down.
says it all really. limit their aoe damage to close range and magical abilities to primarily offensive to distinguish them from elementalist/guardian and we’ve got yet another fairly unique class
Be who you are and say what you feel,
because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind
because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind