Guild Wars 2

As I’ve posted in another thread:

I thought of a time dependent rwarding system for a long time. 60 tokens for a 10m run is just too much. Then compare it to 2h arah with the same rewards.

But you can’t punish players for being fast and can’t reward players for being away from keyboard (abbr. is censored) in dungeons.

The general reward could be something like this:
X token and Y silver, where
X := round(sqrt( time_needed ) x 1.5 ; 1) ; time_needed in seconds.
Y := round(sqrt( time_needed ) x 0.75 ; 0.01) ; basically half of tokens and rounded to copper.
For additional runs a day, reduce the “1.5” and “0.75” to “0.5” and “0.25”.

so a 10min run in CoF would get you 37 tokens, a 30 min run 64 tokens, a 60 min run 90 tokens and a 2h run 127 tokens. This would nerf CoF runs, but honestly, they deserve it. But it’d buff all other dungeons and get you some rewards for longer paths or longer dungeons.
But there’re also some difficulties with abusing. You could simply a#f#k to increase the counter, so you need some measurements to prevent it

• The first one is the square root. Running CoF thrice within 30 mins rewards you with 3×37 = 111 tokens, while a 30m run only grants you 64, so continuously running dungeons is better than a#f#k-ing to get more tokens.
• Another measurement would be to only count the time when 5 players are in a party (or to allow 4- player runs the max amount of players of the party at the run). So you prevent a#f#k-ing by a single person and then inviting others to complete the dungeon. You could also lower the auto-a#f#k-kick timer in dungeons.
• And as last measurement, you could make a timer for each player. So when a 5 player party kicks one to invite their guildy (unfortunately this happens), the new player only get’s his own in-dungeon time rewarded. In CoF cases it’d equal 2mins —> 16 tokens. And you could also reward the kicked player a bit of compensating tokens. Players which leave the party by themself, should get their time-counter set to 0.

All problems of all dungeons solved.

So … I’m awaiting CoF runners’ complains now.

I dont run any CoF anymore because it is to boring to run anymore.
only complain i have on CoF.

Couldn’t a group run around a dungeon (not "afk) for hours to manipulate this system and cash out enormously?

Also I don’t think you are considering diminishing returns for repeated paths. If you were to eliminate DR, your theoretical system could be abused much more efficiently than the current process.

The solutions are:

A.) Drastic changes to CoF P1. Include a more complex gauntlet at the Gate Control part.

B.) Lower reward costs for more difficult dungeons (Arah specifically, considering difficulty is relative). This would allow for less time spent in those dungeons as your reward would get you closer to your item goals in a shorter amount of runs.

Let’s start with the fact i don’t understand. Why should we reward people for being sluggish. If i take my team and finish dungeon in hal hour, and someone gets wiped x-times and finishes it in 2 hours, why would he get more tokens than me. It’s not encouraging people to learn mechanics of bosses, while current system is. In my opinion what should be rewarded is not skipping content, clearing trash mobs on the way. This way i would understand why someone who spent 1 hour more than me in dungeon but cleared everything on his way gets more tokens than me.

Also, Arah isn’t hard. It’s just you need practice to master it. And i think every dungeon should have it’s difficulty level. People say Arah is hard because they don’t think, don’t want to learn. Or they are going too tanky – i understand that tou don’t wanna die one hit by lupi but 30k hp and 3k armor at cost of damage isn’t good for pve. Last arah run i did, i dealt more damage to lupi than rest of my team combined (i’m not warrior).

I agree with NyuuNeeChan, this would be penalizing efficiency. Although I do think there needs to be a system in place to eliminate speed runs and content skipping.

One of the hilarious things I noticed with this most recent content patch is the amount of people complaining about the pirate dungeon’s difficulty. Before this dungeon, every post about PvE was that the content was too easy. You’re never going to please everyone, but there are certainly strides ANet can take to improve the dungeon experience for dedicated players willing to complete the content.

Rewards should be based on average group times in the last 24 hours, not merely on your own inability to play efficiently.

So if groups, on average, take 4 hours to complete a dungeon, it should give 4*6=24 times the rewards of a dungeon that takes 10 minutes.

This wouldn’t punish anyone for being fast – the square root mechanic means that faster groups will have the opportunity to run the dungeon more frequently and so still make more tokens than a slow group. I’m assuming that DR would be removed, and that bosses would still drop silver, so it would be very profitable to farm the same dungeon over and over… whether or not you consider that a problem is another matter.
Unfortunately this doesn’t fully address the fact that people are still encouraged to avoid the more challenging dungeons (like Arah) because they’re not as rewarding as the simple easy ones (like CoF). It would help a bit though.

Gnat.9405:

Couldn’t a group run around a dungeon (not "afk) for hours to manipulate this system and cash out enormously?

So you rather group-a#f#k for two hours than run a second path within 20 mins for the same rewards ?

I clearly stated that a#f#k-ing doesn’t pay out since the time is square rooted. Instead of 30 mins a#f#k-ing in CoF, you could run path1 twice within 2×10 mins and receive 74 tokens instead of 64. And since you get more tokens by longer runs, it might players encourage to go something else than just CoF1.

Gnat.9405:

The solutions are:

A.) Drastic changes to CoF P1. Include a more complex gauntlet at the Gate Control part.

B.) Lower reward costs for more difficult dungeons (Arah specifically, considering difficulty is relative). This would allow for less time spent in those dungeons as your reward would get you closer to your item goals in a shorter amount of runs.

Manually adjusting the rewards of dungeons will only lead to further “exploitings”. Currently the player base searched for the shortest path of all dungeons, since the reward is the same and has found CoF1. Adjusting the reward cost would only help until the new “most productive path” has been found. So instead of “fixing” the issue, it’d just be moved to another dungeon.

NyuuNeeChan.2891:

Let’s start with the fact i don’t understand. Why should we reward people for being sluggish. If i take my team and finish dungeon in hal hour, and someone gets wiped x-times and finishes it in 2 hours, why would he get more tokens than me. It’s not encouraging people to learn mechanics of bosses, while current system is. In my opinion what should be rewarded is not skipping content, clearing trash mobs on the way. This way i would understand why someone who spent 1 hour more than me in dungeon but cleared everything on his way gets more tokens than me.

Also, Arah isn’t hard. It’s just you need practice to master it. And i think every dungeon should have it’s difficulty level. People say Arah is hard because they don’t think, don’t want to learn. Or they are going too tanky – i understand that tou don’t wanna die one hit by lupi but 30k hp and 3k armor at cost of damage isn’t good for pve. Last arah run i did, i dealt more damage to lupi than rest of my team combined (i’m not warrior).

As I said before. The current system is not to encourage players to learn bosses, but to find out the easiest path and spam it. There’s no need to learn any other dungeon in this game, as long as you have CoF1.
And yes, a team which needs longer should be rewarded with more tokens, than an experienced team. This encourages less-dungeon-efficient players. Instead of never inviting them (since you already have your optimized list of dedicated players, never take new players with you, right?), it encourages teaching other players or a new group (never been in there) to explore the dungeons, instead of “no, you must to this to be 2s faster!!11!!!”.
But you’re not wrong either, an efficient group should also be rewarded for being experienced. That means … if you run nothing else but dungeon x path y, you should get more and more rewards. Rewarding for not going into other places … well. But let’s stay at your reasoning. You are rewarded with more time. Done. You can run two paths at the same time a new group runs a single one. And due to calculation, you get ~50% more tokens than them, even when they get “rewarded” for taking longer. But it’s rather “compensated” than “rewarded”.

The square root is not to neglet … guys, learn maths. Half the time means effectively 41% more rewards. (1 / sqrt(1/2) -1).

And I’m not saying arah is that hard. As first timer you might nee a bit more time, but it’s doable. But WHY penalizing new players ? why penalizing going anything but CoF1 ?

marnick.4305:

Rewards should be based on average group times in the last 24 hours, not merely on your own inability to play efficiently.

So if groups, on average, take 4 hours to complete a dungeon, it should give 4*6=24 times the rewards of a dungeon that takes 10 minutes.

That would be another interesting idea. It’d require more memory and more development. Any change in the dungeon would lead to exploits within the first 24h. Then you’d always have the competive thinking.

Why penalize a new group which wants to explore the dungeon, because the “pros” run this path 10 times a day within 15 mins each? So others have to get lower rewards, because you do nothing else but lower the “average timer” ?
Would you constantly ask players which takes the longest time, so you can beat it and make it worse for others ?

This would be a highly risky system. Might work, but might fail. But would be higly unfair to starters and encourage “partying with better players” – called “eliteism”.

So less skillful, efficient players should be rewarded more than honed, veteran players? What if an experienced guild group wants to run with experienced players through a dungeon? Should they not be rewarded equally, if not more handsomely? What about players that are doing the exploited dungeons the proper way? I don’t think anyone should be rewarded or penalized based on the efficiency of other players that are not associated with them at all. This is why there is a standardized rewards system.

The problem is in the dungeon design, not the rewards system.

Gnat.9405:

So less skillful, efficient players should be rewarded more than honed, veteran players? What if an experienced guild group wants to run with experienced players through a dungeon? Should they not be rewarded equally, if not more handsomely? What about players that are doing the exploited dungeons the proper way? I don’t think anyone should be rewarded or penalized based on the efficiency of other players that are not associated with them at all. This is why there is a standardized rewards system.

The problem is in the dungeon design, not the rewards system.

Did you actually read more than the topic?

10mins run → 37 tokens
30mins run → 64 tokens
2×10min runs → 74 tokens
3×10min runs → 111 tokens

So such an “experienced troop” would get almost twice the amount of tokens in the same time as an “unexpecienced group” (Instead od thrice.). It’s not rewarding for being slower, guys.

Why reward CoF1 (which is really complex and only for veteran players …) better than all other dungeons? This system would actually be better for veteran players. Except when you think CoF1 running is “being veteran/ experienced/ efficient/ honed”.

You can’t balance all dungeons and all paths now to the same complexity. Fixed increasement of each dungeonpath would only lead to another path, which gets spammed.

The problem with dungeon design can be fixed by fixing the reward system. Far easier than renewing all dungeons.

Nretep.2564:

10mins run -> 37 tokens
30mins run -> 64 tokens
2×10min runs -> 74 tokens
3×10min runs -> 111 tokens

So, just like now, everyone would flock to the quickest-to-finish dungeon to maximize the reward they get. Your proposed system wouldn’t change anything outside of the value per run. Assuming DR was removed.

If you wanted to “fix” dungeons (right now, I’m more driven to complete dungeons for their specific armor set designs than I am any other reason), then the proper way to do it would be based on how ANet wants players to run them. You’d be better off saying something like:

Leave DR for re-running the same path in effect → inspires diversity in runs

Each enemy drops a single token per path, per day (prevent continual enemy farming for token) → gives players a reason to actually clear all the mobs and play all the content instead of skipping them all for the 60 reward at the end. Heck, you could even make the harder enemies drop a bag that gives 1-4 or something, to inspire them to attack them as well. Of course, this would have to be figured out for “endless waves” scenarios, to prevent abuse.

End reward based on difficulty of dungeon, as opposed to length of dungeon →gives players a risk vs reward that makes sense, but also balances to deal with the average perceived time to complete dungeons in a more logical way.

The answer to things like dungeons isn’t simple math, there’s more to it than that.

Okay man look, I appreciate the system you made. It’s good, and it would clearly work if an overhaul was ever set in place. The only problem I have with it is that it’s not simple, it’s not a player friendly system to keep in mind when running dungeons. That’s the least of the issues.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that this post is clearly a direct complaint to CoF1 farming, and you’re using your system as a blanket effect for the problem with one dungeon. Yes, there will always be a route in a dungeon that nets more profit than the next, but you have to admit (and I think your post does) that CoF is on a completely different level in terms of grinding for gold. That’s the point that you may be missing. People aren’t doing this for tokens. People are farming this instance because of the gold. If the DR is applied to the overall gain of gold, than maybe that would be a step in the right direction.

Apply your system to copper/silver/gold gained through the dungeons and that might put a damper on the volume of farming.

His system is for gold AND tokens…

Nretep.2564:

The general reward could be something like this:
X token and Y silver, where
X := round(sqrt( time_needed ) x 1.5 ; 1) ; time_needed in seconds.
Y := round(sqrt( time_needed ) x 0.75 ; 0.01) ; basically half of tokens and rounded to copper.
For additional runs a day, reduce the “1.5” and “0.75” to “0.5” and “0.25”.

so a 10min run in CoF would get you 37 tokens, a 30 min run 64 tokens, a 60 min run 90 tokens and a 2h run 127 tokens. This would nerf CoF runs, but honestly, they deserve it. But it’d buff all other dungeons and get you some rewards for longer paths or longer dungeons.

And akitteng thru the night every day rewards players with tokens for an exotic and over a gold each? nty

Mist Y.5214:

His system is for gold AND tokens…

Except it only DR’s dungeon reward money. In real CoF runs this drops like a rock anyway. Your real money is from all the scripted silver drops from bosses.

Player Character.9467:

And akitteng thru the night every day rewards players with tokens for an exotic and over a gold each? nty

as I said, you’d need five players to a#f#k and the auto-a#f#k-kick would prevent this.

Player Character.9467:

Mist Y.5214:

His system is for gold AND tokens…

Except it only DR’s dungeon reward money. In real CoF runs this drops like a rock anyway. Your real money is from all the scripted silver drops from bosses.

The system would not be to nerf CoF1 (well, toning it down a bit), but mainly for rewarding going somewhere else.